I love Saquan as a person and he is exciting to watch. The comp people use for him is Barry Sanders. I was never a Barry Sanders fan. My favorite backs growing up were Earl Campbell and Walter Payton. My style preference is different. I think Barry was an all time great.
I can't help but have watched Freeman for the last few weeks and not think this team is better served by a back that takes the first crease with authority and goes 3, 3, 3, 4, 11, 2, 3, 7, 15, 3 ect. DJ and the OL needs more 2nd and 6 than the threat of the back going for 6 on any given play.
We lost our undisputed best player and we look no different at all. You could make the argument that we look better. I think you can forever place me in the camp that believes you should NEVER draft a running back high in the first now.
You can't make this shit up (or you can I guess).
That is all that is required.
That's really all we need to know.
Shouldn't you go read up on how Alvin Kamara has one of the highest YPC in football since he was drafted? After a post like that I question ever single thing you say, its all garbage.
yea good question everything I say. Never question Jones. Never question Barkley. Continue to look to others ; the line; the TE; the coaches. empty calories statistics.
It it obvious unless you have watched too many Campbell soup commercials you can not win with those 2 guys as the focal point of the team.
You keep saying you can if this or that, but you can't.
Do you watch the fucking games? He got zero touches last week.
But then again - you are the same astute football fan that thinks Kamara is only a pass catcher.
Do you watch any games??
You are putting words in my mouth.
Go back and read what I said. I said all of his BIG plays that I have seen from him were catches out of the backfield.
I'm fairly confident we are 3-3 at worst
UConn4523 : 10/20/2020 2:20 pm : link : reply
with Kyler Murray. And the reason for that is two fold. First and foremost we'd be scoring a lot more points. And second and probably just as important, our defense might be playing with the lead more, thus creating more opportunities for turnovers.
I've supported the Jones pick and still do (he's got 2020 in my book), but he's got opportunities that better players would be executing on.
UConn4523 : 10/20/2020 2:29 pm : link : reply
and awareness to make those moves which doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but is very clear when watching him play. Jones' clock isn't good enough.
He also combines this special big-play field shifting ability with incredible ball security, only 1 fumble on 646 touches over his NFL career. Ezekiel Elliot has 14 fumbles in 869 touches during the same time period. Dalvin Cook has 7 fumbles in 580 touches over the same time period. McCaffrey has 5 fumbles in 777 touches over the same time period. Derrick Henry has 6 fumbles in 682 touches over the same time period. Fumbles are worse than INTs, they are brutal backbreaking plays.
Barkley's ability to create big positive plays while preventing big negative plays (fumbles) is truly special and absolutely an outlier for his position. Does he need to improve his consistency in terms of gaining 3 yards instead of losing 2 yards attempting to wait for a bigger hole to develop? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean his skill-set isn't very valuable in this league, especially compared to a dime a dozen RB like Freeman. Hopefully Barkley comes back stronger than ever.
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In comment 15016223 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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awful lot of back patting on this thread. And what exactly is it for??
Freeman isn't coming close to Barkley's production and our running game is one of the worst in the league.
How is that trying to be spun into the argument that Freeman is as effective as Barkley? He's averaging 3.2 YPC and we have exactly 2TD's from RB's this season.
Saying Freeman is as effective as Barkley or that he's a better fit over and over again doesn't make it true.
We shall see. I like what I see so far. More touches will yield more insight.
So you actually are trying to say that Freeman is as effective as Barkley??
The problem with this conversation is that people post like Barkley has never or can't get 3 yards. As Osi mentioned he needs to resist the urge to always go for the HR, but that doesn't mean it happens on every play. The other problem with this conversation is that people are posting like regardless of cost, Freeman is simply "better for this offense".
I find that to be absolute bullshit. We can't even score with improved O-Line play, how can anyone determine we are better off with Freeman?
O that you prefer Alexander Mattison to Dalvin Cook because Mattison is less injury prone
It's certainly an opinion, and it would certainly be wrong.
I can't even believe you are seriously trying to compare the two.
"Because of this discrepancy between the quality of the line and the quality of the back, 27.6 percent of Barkley’s run this season have gone for zero or fewer yards while 13.8 percent have gone for 10 yards or more. It’s part of the reason why the Giants are 32nd in rushing marginal efficiency (play-to-play success) but first in rushing marginal explosiveness (big play potential)."
Osi added more to that in his post, but the data just doesn't lie. No amount of "hitting the hole hard" is going to change getting hit at or before the LOS on over a quarter of your carries other than maybe falling forward for 1 yard instead of getting 0.
O that you prefer Alexander Mattison to Dalvin Cook because Mattison is less injury prone
It's certainly an opinion, and it would certainly be wrong.
I can't even believe you are seriously trying to compare the two.
Barkley is a better back than Freeman. Understand?
Freeman was sitting on the sidelines. We basically got him from Goodwill. I like Bradshaw too, I consider them similar. I like that style, my preference. It isn't wrong.
Wait for it... now
Barkley was the number 2 pick in the draft.
The delta in our cost to acquire them is exponentially greater than the difference in their comparative effectiveness.
Freeman’s YPC has been 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, and 3.4 in each of the games he’s played in. That isn’t good and we will continue to struggle to score points as long as it persists.
No idea why anyone would find this acceptable, or something that will work long term. It won’t.
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Freeman’s YPC has been 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, and 3.4 in each of the games he’s played in. That isn’t good and we will continue to struggle to score points as long as it persists.
No idea why anyone would find this acceptable, or something that will work long term. It won’t.
That is a reasonable take. If you don't agree, fine. It is what it is. I feel like I get lumped in with the people that have an agenda and want DG gone and think every single thing he has done is shit. That hasn't been me. I have been positive about the Barkley pick until now. In hindsight, it feels like the pick was a mistake based on all that we now know.
Are you kidding me?
Are you kidding me?
How many GMs would take Freeman getting paid close to the league minimum (in tandem with another cheap young RB) over what Barkley (coming off ACL surgery) is going to want when he’s extended?
A lot might take Barkley but it’s not as cut and dry as you make it IMO.
I don’t disagree with some of it, but it isn’t an absolute. If we had a better oline a guy like Freeman might be adequate. But a guy like Barkley would be transformative.
There’s no definitive answer, you can win both ways.
Are you kidding me?
Barkley is better than Freeman. He just is. I loved Ahmad Bradshaw. I think Freeman has similar style that I find effective.
A better question for GMs would be would you rather spend the second pick in the entire draft on Barkley or pick up Freeman cheap in FA?
That would be my point. I am in no fashion saying Freeman is a better back than Barkley.
The #2 pick debate is as beaten and tired as any topic in this history of this board. I’m strictly talking about 2020 and heading into next season.
And I’ll reserve the Barkley contract until the time comes, we kinda need to see him play first.
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I don’t disagree with some of it, but it isn’t an absolute. If we had a better oline a guy like Freeman might be adequate. But a guy like Barkley would be transformative.
There’s no definitive answer, you can win both ways.
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I don’t disagree with some of it, but it isn’t an absolute. If we had a better oline a guy like Freeman might be adequate. But a guy like Barkley would be transformative.
There’s no definitive answer, you can win both ways.
I don't know about that. I'm not sure Barkley is as good as we all want him to be.
The team has a substandard roster of Offensive players despite rebuilding for several years now.
The #2 pick debate is as beaten and tired as any topic in this history of this board. I’m strictly talking about 2020 and heading into next season.
And I’ll reserve the Barkley contract until the time comes, we kinda need to see him play first.
Yep
Of course those guys can blow their knees out. But they didn't. Barkley did.
And even before he was hurt I don't think there's any evidence of Barkley being transformative. His presence didn't keep the offense from being dreadful. And opponents have locked on to his deficiencies as a pass blocker.
I think paying him would have been a massive error even before the injury.
You give Saquon Barkley a nice hole and he's in the endzone
Defenses gameplan to stop Barkley. Nobody gameplans to stop Freeman
When I think about the Giants I always think about the razor's edge they needed to win. Eli couldn't run, so they had to protect him better, which caused this and that.
I think Barkley is the kind of player that tips those scales in the Giants favor, but its still the ultimate team game. Meaning without an OL, they won't be successful.
What we really need to see is Barkley with a fully fleshed out vision of this offense. With a good OL and solid weapons around him.
He can then take this offense to a scary level, because he will homerun some of those Freeman 10 yd runs to TDs. He will suck up those LBs and Jones can hit WRs deep. You will see wins pile up. But Barkley cannot carry a broken offense as we've seen.
The #2 pick debate is as beaten and tired as any topic in this history of this board. I’m strictly talking about 2020 and heading into next season.
And I’ll reserve the Barkley contract until the time comes, we kinda need to see him play first.
So, that is how it works sometimes with running backs.
Does anyone think Bradshaw was a better back than Tiki Barber? Your lizard brain might trick you into thinking something like "well if you won 2 superbowls with Bradshaw as your back , imagine how many you could have won with with a better back like Tiki."
Coughlin told you straight out the correct answer and that was none. "you aren't winning with tiki." he was right and so are we with Saquon. He is exciting, highly athletic, and it seem like he can take it to the house every down. The sad fact is that tackling in the NFL is much better than college and his touches often result in negative yards or no gain.
Difference of opinion on this one, but i really don't feel like arguing with you about it anymore. You think what you think and there's no changing it under any circumstances.
Stain.
Same thing with Jones. I stayed out thinking he was going to be really good. He's shown me through his play that he probably isn't, so I changed my mind.
I'm willing to change my mind if it's shown on the field, but they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.
Stain.
Why don't you go away. This thread is about the plainly obvious; that Freeman is a more effective back in terms of getting first downs/moving the sticks and fighting for tough yards which should translate to getting wins. We don't need some nerd to point out that saquon averaged .278 more yards so that is the end of the argument. And he certainly don't need you arguing for 2 pages relentlessly about what we are seeing with our own eyes isn't really what we are seeing. Some of us didn't drink the Barkley kool aid. (or Jones kool aid; he's another over-hyped bush leaguer).
And no you don't need to also watch NO Saints football or be an expert on backs around the league to see it. nor do you need a photographic memory of the last time the Giants played the Saints to see it. Heck I might have even missed that game!
BTW I don't know if you know what fraud means but I didn't try to deceive any one.
Maybe it is, but when you're the 2nd pick overall and touched by the hand of God there are going to be harsh expectations placed on you. The yards and receptions that season don't really impress me - a ton of that was in garbage time after the Giants had been blown out.
Barkley (and Jones) are supposed to be the foundation of the next era. All we've really gotten though (from fans, not the team) is excuses about why they aren't performing at an elite level befitting the investment placed in them.
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go away. You've been exposed for the fraud you are several times in just this thread alone. Your opinion means nothing to me.
Stain.
Why don't you go away. This thread is about the plainly obvious; that Freeman is a more effective back in terms of getting first downs/moving the sticks and fighting for tough yards which should translate to getting wins. We don't need some nerd to point out that saquon averaged .278 more yards so that is the end of the argument. And he certainly don't need you arguing for 2 pages relentlessly about what we are seeing with our own eyes isn't really what we are seeing. Some of us didn't drink the Barkley kool aid. (or Jones kool aid; he's another over-hyped bush leaguer).
And no you don't need to also watch NO Saints football or be an expert on backs around the league to see it. nor do you need a photographic memory of the last time the Giants played the Saints to see it. Heck I might have even missed that game!
BTW I don't know if you know what fraud means but I didn't try to deceive any one.
You are trying to post like your opinion is one we should all take seriously. You are a fraud and I’ve pointed out examples why. How come I can have a decent conversation on here with everyone but you?
I don’t agree with everything Terps is saying, but there’s no animosity. Thegratefulhead thanked me for being open minded. I’ve shown you posts of me being critical of Jones.
Seems to me like there’s one constant here and it’s that your posting is awful.
And there it is - exactly why RBs are over-valued.
The ability to produce some football type of "WAR" is never going to be materially reliable...
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hasn't produced at an elite level, but Barkley has. It just didn't result in a jump in wins. Similar to McCaffery
And there it is - exactly why RBs are over-valued.
The ability to produce some football type of "WAR" is never going to be materially reliable...
But you can say that about every position and there are countless examples to prove it, especially at positions like WR, TE, DE
Top RB's don't barely get 50% of their contracts guaranteed. Go take a look at the other positions and what their top players are not only making on a per year average, but the % guaranteed. Their impact on the game from a dollars/cents perspective is cheap.
Draft capital, different story. But financially I completely disagree.
High level productive DEs/Edge are very hard to find. So getting a good one is always a good idea in my book. Finding a way to measure their impact on wins is difficult because a good defense needs a good scheme with more quality across the board. And that's because it's so damn difficult to play defense with the rules.