I love Saquan as a person and he is exciting to watch. The comp people use for him is Barry Sanders. I was never a Barry Sanders fan. My favorite backs growing up were Earl Campbell and Walter Payton. My style preference is different. I think Barry was an all time great.
I can't help but have watched Freeman for the last few weeks and not think this team is better served by a back that takes the first crease with authority and goes 3, 3, 3, 4, 11, 2, 3, 7, 15, 3 ect. DJ and the OL needs more 2nd and 6 than the threat of the back going for 6 on any given play.
We lost our undisputed best player and we look no different at all. You could make the argument that we look better. I think you can forever place me in the camp that believes you should NEVER draft a running back high in the first now.
At the end of the year, we will have played 48 game since Barkley was drafted. He will have been on the field for 9 wins. Fair or not, I wanted more from him. The injuries are out of his control but it was one of the indictments of using the number 2 pick on a RB. They get hurt because of all the touches and hits.
I was OK with the pick at the time. After all I have witnessed, if I could go back in time with the power to alter the past I would change the pick. Next year, Barkley will have the opportunity to make fools of anyone that has questioned him. I hope he does.
Top RB's don't barely get 50% of their contracts guaranteed. Go take a look at the other positions and what their top players are not only making on a per year average, but the % guaranteed. Their impact on the game from a dollars/cents perspective is cheap.
Draft capital, different story. But financially I completely disagree.
I get that to a degree. But, and I say this all of the time, good RBs seems to grow on trees. Great ones are still great, but do you really need a great one, or even a transcendent one, when the margins seem so thin in their overall value to the bottom line?
So why give up that extra spend - regardless of the cap impact - when you could spend those dollars is more areas of need. In my view...
Its just one of those things that I can really be on either side of the fence on. If we had a great OL and the RBBC thing worked, that's awesome. But I've watched this team try to do it for almost a decade and fail, and now it seems like they also failed with Barkley. I'd say "invest in the OL more" but we have...a ton, and that didn't work either.
There isn't a single reason for it. We need better talent evaluators to pair with our hopefully better coaching. We need some luck for a change with the injuries almost everywhere.
I'm interested to see how long it lasts. Generally speaking he will hit a wall like most of them do, or will get injured because guys like him aren't used to playing with a full work load. His lifetime 3.7 ypc average and minimal touches suggest it will happen sooner rather than later.
Another really simplistic and poor take is the idea that "Barkley turns a 12 yard run by Freeman into a touchdown" and that isn't really how it works, a lot of Barkely's touchdown runs come from spinning out of a tackle or making something out of nothing etc. But that is also his problem. And he tries to do that too much. The narrative when he was drafted was that he didn't need a great OL to perform. Now we are seeing a lot of people say it's just that the OL is playing better that Freeman looks better when they are just different players and maybe Saquon is the complete opposite of what we were sold.
Nelson is the most often talked about preferred pick by people that don't think the numbers support taking an RB that high and I think perhaps the best argument for that is looking at the Giants. We had Freeman come in off the street at what could at best be described as a negligible drop off. We can't even seem to use high picks to get productive players on the OL let alone the hope of picking up a replacement off the street.
To sum it up, Barkley needs a good OL to be functional, RBs generally are more fungible by far than OL so why on earth take him before you have a even league average OL?
The argument around game planning is dumb. Our offense was bad before Barkley was injured and it's bad after. We have a whole new offensive system and someone who is a renowned QB guru has exited. There is just no evidence whatsoever Barkley adds the kind of value to create a winning team to justify his salary and draft position. Does he make the team better than having Freeman? Yeah, i'd say so, but clearly others wouldn't say that as definitively and the margin isn't as clear or large as some are suggesting
But he Davis as hell earned his keep this season even if he fades away on the bench. Just another example of how much production you can get out RBs that aren't top of their draft class.
Did we have a good OL in 2018? The perception that Barkley was just a decent back has developed a groundswell for some reason - likely because people didn't like his selection
There isn't a single reason for it. We need better talent evaluators to pair with our hopefully better coaching. We need some luck for a change with the injuries almost everywhere.
From your keyboard to God's ears on that. This OL jinx needs to end. Sort of encouraged by Peart and maybe moving Thomas to RT. Need to see what Lemieux has to offer. Perhaps Gettleman stepped in some horse manure the day the draft began and actually found some players.
People questioning the pick very much did because of the injury risk for the position. One 2,000 yard season out of 3 just flatly isn't even close to good enough and many were expecting us not to get value out of the pick before seeing this play out so it isn't revisionist history.
But he Davis as hell earned his keep this season even if he fades away on the bench. Just another example of how much production you can get out RBs that aren't top of their draft class.
There's examples of a lot of things, doesn't mean they are constants. Even a back as solid as Latavius Murray likely nets the Saints a big regression in offense. Kamara has been their MVP, with or without Michael Thomas.
People questioning the pick very much did because of the injury risk for the position. One 2,000 yard season out of 3 just flatly isn't even close to good enough and many were expecting us not to get value out of the pick before seeing this play out so it isn't revisionist history.
I've been a Penn State fan for a long time. So naturally I was a fan of Barkley. Even saw him play in high school at White Hall (Pa). I'm originally from north Jersey so my high school - Phillipsburg - used to play a lot of those PA powerhouses like Easton, Beth Catholic, Cen Catholic, White Hall, etc.
But I didn't want to draft him for many reasons described above. And I didn't like that he had something like 750+ touches coming out. The accumulated hits on a RB always bother me because - unless you are a freak like AP - those take a toll and can bend the production curve very quickly in the NFL where you just get hit more and hit harder.
If I am not mistaken the 2018 giants gave up a lot of leads late, leads that Barkley individually contributed to that was lost late in the game.
But how can anyone claim he got his yards in garbage time with a straight face? Were games out of reach in the first half??
1st Quarter - 267 yards 2 TD's
2nd Quarter - 455 yards 3 TD's
3rd Quarter - 378 yards 1 TD
4th Quarter - 171 yards 5 TD's
He literally had his least amount of yards late in the game. What can be possibly referenced to back up the assertion his yards came in "garbage time"?? Any evidence at all?
Off the top of my head I remember him getting a bunch of checkdowns with that game out of hand.
But how can anyone claim he got his yards in garbage time with a straight face? Were games out of reach in the first half??
1st Quarter - 267 yards 2 TD's
2nd Quarter - 455 yards 3 TD's
3rd Quarter - 378 yards 1 TD
4th Quarter - 171 yards 5 TD's
He literally had his least amount of yards late in the game. What can be possibly referenced to back up the assertion his yards came in "garbage time"?? Any evidence at all?
Typical, you cherry pick one fact and then act like it proves your point.
Why not share the whole splits page for 2018?
In 12 games decided by 0-7 points, 4 wins and 8 losses, he averaged 4.44 Y/A and 77.7 Y/G for receiving 7.56 Y/R and 42.8 Y/G
In 4 games decided by 15+ points 1 win and 3 losses, 7.35 Y/A and 93.8 Y/G and for receiving 9 Y/A and 51.8 Y/G.
So in blowouts when we did worse Barkley did more work, which if you consider the fact that you'd like to run the ball with the lead doesn't reflect well on the point that he didn't do well in "garbage time." Looking at these numbers differently he got almost 30% of his yards in 4 blowouts and 70% of them in 12 closer games.
But also like usual you've latched on to a lesser point and don't even make the argument well. The larger point of if he was the right value is a very clear no.
Pro Football Reference 2018 Barkley Splits - ( New Window )
That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft.
Who gives a fuck what his totals were at the end of games of various scores. The point is that he DID NOT have a ton of yards in "junk time".
As usual - a faulty point was made and when shown the breakdown BY QUARTER, which is much more relevant to when he got his yards than what the eventual score was - it showed that the least amount of Barkley's yards came in actual "junk time".
The stats literally debunk the shitty take that his yards were mostly when the game was decided. A simple "my bad" would have sufficed.
The facts aren't supporting your take at all.
That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft.
Titans basically did this offseason - 4 yrs/$50M. That’s an incredible deal for the Titans.
The other two I’d seriously consider are Kamara and Lamar Jackson. ; )
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To me Derrick Henry is the best back in the league - am actual bell cow that wears down opponents and seems to get stronger as winter arrives. Closes out games and makes people quit.
That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft.
Titans basically did this offseason - 4 yrs/$50M. That’s an incredible deal for the Titans.
The other two I’d seriously consider are Kamara and Lamar Jackson. ; )
Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did.
Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft.
Now this is special.
Meanwhile, the Lions never had a better run than when Barry was toting the rock. But hey, you do you. Just do you. Forget the facts. It's all style points anyway.
Maybe if Barkley was actually healthy he'd be a better RB? just a thought.
If the Ravens drafted Barkley he's probably an MVP caliber player> If the Giants drafted Jackson he'd be fun to watch, but he wouldn't be LAMAR JACKSON, at least not yet.
I love how we gloss over that the least talented team in football drafted Barkley while the most talented team with thye best HC drafted Jackson.
Only here is the devil never in the details. Here it is all about platitudes and one offs.
The point is that a dominating back was not able to win a championship by being the focal point of an offense.
And that was before the NFL became a pass friendly league.
I see Barley's talent for what it is. Yes in the right environment with another superstar player -- like Lamar -- he could shine and be special.
That is a unique set of circumstances and the Giants are nowhere near that at the moment.
But that point proves nothing anyway. Lamar Jackson would still be the focal point of that offense.
IF you put Saquon on the Tennesee Titans he would not look much different and they would not have gotten past the Patriots.
That's a guy that's tough to replace, who makes a difference in the win/loss column. The other guys I think are more easily replaced through scheme and the middle rounds of the draft.
So yeah, a RB can carry an offense. Different NFL now but if you are going to go back in time to Barry Sanders then I'm going to do the same.
Further, you have a hard on for me because I am new.
Go Terps has been saying the same thing with regard to Barkley (and jones) ; it is just as controversial and unconventional , but I don't see you mocking, ridiculing, and name calling him.
If the Ravens drafted Barkley he's probably an MVP caliber player> If the Giants drafted Jackson he'd be fun to watch, but he wouldn't be LAMAR JACKSON, at least not yet.
I love how we gloss over that the least talented team in football drafted Barkley while the most talented team with thye best HC drafted Jackson.
Only here is the devil never in the details. Here it is all about platitudes and one offs.
Barkley is indeed immensely talented. But for the gabillionth time, he was the wrong player for this team to draft at the time.
He certainly helps offset some of the sting of the losses because he is very entertaining. But at the end of the day, he doesn't really make a difference in the W column. Particularly for this team right now...
You don’t read what people are saying when they disagree with you and then attack them for their opinions, many of which are far more thought out than yours.
Again, no problems with anyone else on here. I wonder why.
Kamara - core piece on division winner/contender since he got drafted round 2
CMC - core piece on a crappy team since getting drafted 8OA
Cook - core piece on a wild card team since getting drafted rd 2
Henry - core piece on a wild card team since getting drafted rd 2
Clearly there is a value of top RB's to both good offenses and good teams. Clearly there's also a correlation to those guys being selected with high picks. There's certainly more than 1 way to skin a cat and many successful teams have gone with more of the committee approach - but drafting a top RB is one way to skin the cat.
JMO but I think there are only so many skill players good enough to be the centerpiece of an offensive gameplan and they have enormous value whether they are a RB, TE, or WR. And as Giant fans we've seen great talents at all 3 positions have their careers minimized by injuries so I'm not sure durability is as big of a differentiator as many insist. OBJ, Cruz, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Shockey all had their careers heavily impacted by injuries. The reality is there are very few players as durable as someone like Tiki.
Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did.
Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft.
He's a unicorn for sure. But he's in such an ideal situation. The Ravens are good and deep on both sides of the ball and have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. And all of this allows LJax to mostly be a front runner, which he is great at.
But there are still legitimate questions to be answered about his passing skills. When the Ravens are behind and need to rely exclusively on the pass, he struggles to deliver.
When he's had to go toe to toe with Mahomes and the Chiefs, LJax has basically folded like a blanket. And the Chiefs aren't going away any time soon.
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Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did.
Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft.
He's a unicorn for sure. But he's in such an ideal situation. The Ravens are good and deep on both sides of the ball and have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. And all of this allows LJax to mostly be a front runner, which he is great at.
But there are still legitimate questions to be answered about his passing skills. When the Ravens are behind and need to rely exclusively on the pass, he struggles to deliver.
When he's had to go toe to toe with Mahomes and the Chiefs, LJax has basically folded like a blanket. And the Chiefs aren't going away any time soon.
The problem isn't Jackson; it's the play calling. Jackson has a 24-6 regular season record as a starter. The 3 of the 6 losses everyone remembers are the 2 playoff losses and the loss to KC this year. In each of those three losses the Ravens made the mistake of abandoning the run when they got behind. They should NEVER do that. Jackson's quality is based on his excellence as a runner - not as a passer.
In the playoff loss to Tennessee Jackson team 20 times, and the RBs 9. Most of Jackson's 20 were probably called passes that he improvised into runs.
That doesn't work. The Baltimore coaches have got to stop panicking the moment they fall behind against quality opposition. Hold your water and keep calling designed runs; don't abandon the offense.
The facts aren't supporting your take at all.
This is such a meaningless stat.
You know how you stay off this leaderboard? You win games by 8 or more points.
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In comment 15017559 Go Terps said:
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Lamar ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did. And threw for more yards and TDs than Jones did.
Unbelievable that he wasn't the first player in that draft.
He's a unicorn for sure. But he's in such an ideal situation. The Ravens are good and deep on both sides of the ball and have one of the best coaching staffs in the league. And all of this allows LJax to mostly be a front runner, which he is great at.
But there are still legitimate questions to be answered about his passing skills. When the Ravens are behind and need to rely exclusively on the pass, he struggles to deliver.
When he's had to go toe to toe with Mahomes and the Chiefs, LJax has basically folded like a blanket. And the Chiefs aren't going away any time soon.
The problem isn't Jackson; it's the play calling. Jackson has a 24-6 regular season record as a starter. The 3 of the 6 losses everyone remembers are the 2 playoff losses and the loss to KC this year. In each of those three losses the Ravens made the mistake of abandoning the run when they got behind. They should NEVER do that. Jackson's quality is based on his excellence as a runner - not as a passer.
In the playoff loss to Tennessee Jackson team 20 times, and the RBs 9. Most of Jackson's 20 were probably called passes that he improvised into runs.
That doesn't work. The Baltimore coaches have got to stop panicking the moment they fall behind against quality opposition. Hold your water and keep calling designed runs; don't abandon the offense.
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Jackson is 24-4 in the regular season, 24-6 including playoffs. Fantastic success so far.
Losing to Mahomes is an indictment of no one. We might be watching the best to ever play. Mahomes is a freak.
No doubt. Mahomes is on a different planet right now.
Still, LJax was god awful in that game once KC exploded for 21 points in the second quarter. Went 15/28 for 97 yards.
Until I see some better results for LJax when the Ravens get behind, that's his Achilles heel.
I am just kidding around now by in my imagination ....
You and Terrel Davis would be like Paul, the fanboy in Big Fan when he gets beat up by his favorite player
Link - ( New Window )
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that 2018 team played the most games decided by less than a TD than any team in the league.
The facts aren't supporting your take at all.
This is such a meaningless stat.
You know how you stay off this leaderboard? You win games by 8 or more points.
Not sure what meaning you are attaching to it. My point was the 2018 Giants didn't have a whole lot of "junk time" for Barkley to supposedly pile up a ton of yards in.
You know, the assertion made by at least two posters on this thread.
A swing and a miss.
Hey, I've come around to thinking drafting Barkley at #2 was a mistake too after initially being so enthusiastic about it, but let's not go crazy here. He isn't perfect, he may not even be quite as good as initially expecte, but he also isn't just some fast athlete with no football instincts.
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In comment 15017543 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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that 2018 team played the most games decided by less than a TD than any team in the league.
The facts aren't supporting your take at all.
This is such a meaningless stat.
You know how you stay off this leaderboard? You win games by 8 or more points.
Not sure what meaning you are attaching to it. My point was the 2018 Giants didn't have a whole lot of "junk time" for Barkley to supposedly pile up a ton of yards in.
You know, the assertion made by at least two posters on this thread.