that thinks Marcus Golden is useless. i was happy to see him tip that pass, but thats about all he's got. that guy cannot get to the QB and never requires a double team.
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
for the first time is a long time we have legit building blocks at key positions. DT with Lawrence/Tomlinson/Williams. An elite corner in Bradberry. Hopefully 2 solid (if not better) OTs, still TBD. A very solid MLB in Martinez.
Obviously the question marks are still there at many other positions, specifically QB, EDGE, WR, S etc but its a start!
that thinks Marcus Golden is useless. i was happy to see him tip that pass, but thats about all he's got. that guy cannot get to the QB and never requires a double team.
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
3 Rookies on an OL, with 2 at OT, seems like a VERY dangerous proposition....but then again, I guess things cant really get much worse. Or could they?
And the tackle positions, economically, are very expensive. If they can get away with quality play with these guys on a rookie deal while their QB is on a rookie deal, watch out in free agency in the coming year or two or three.
Man the Solder opt out really is gonna sting next season when we have that huge cap hit.
that thinks Marcus Golden is useless. i was happy to see him tip that pass, but thats about all he's got. that guy cannot get to the QB and never requires a double team.
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
the irony of it all. 5 promising OL starters picked by Gettleman the Incompetent :-)
With all the screaming on BBI about Thomas, I refer people to your draft review of Thomas saying that the team and fans will need patience with him while he cleans up his technique deficiencies. Thomas has not had a weak opponent yet. I agree this is not Flowers. Kid owned up to his mistake and said it will not happen again....I believe him. He does not moan, whine or hide.
I like how Judge is blending in the young oline as the season progresses. I suspect once Peart is situated on the line somewhere, Lemieux will start to be introduced at one or both guard positions.
My world for just one more competent WR.
Appreciate your weekly reviews and I sense that for the first time in a long time you sense a light at the end of the tunnel that is not a freight train - it may merely be just the loom, but it is there.
There has been a lot made on here in the past couple of days about Thomas and Peart. I am glad to hear that you liked what you saw in Peart, and are not particularly troubled by what you have seen from Thomas. If they truly both turn out to be reliable starters, the team is set at two very important positions.
I am a big critic of Gettleman and will continue to be, but I do have to give him props on this year's class of free agents. Bradberry, Martinez and Fackrel have all been good additions. However, there are still way too many misses on this roster over the past few years.
I am hoping your take on the tackles is correct and hoping I can be patient this year when they regress during certain games. Do you think we se Lemieux in anytime soon? As you said, your review of Zeitler had been consistent and I am not all that impressed with Hernandez considering its his 3rd year. When do they see what they have in Shane?
that thinks Marcus Golden is useless. i was happy to see him tip that pass, but thats about all he's got. that guy cannot get to the QB and never requires a double team.
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
3 Rookies on an OL, with 2 at OT, seems like a VERY dangerous proposition....but then again, I guess things cant really get much worse. Or could they?
if Soldier didnt opt out we could have had Thomas and Peart getting experience on the right side but we're at where we are at.
but not a fan of the timid defensive play calling, and punting the ball on 4th and 2 from the Washington 37 yard line. When the the game has been on the line with a lead both last week and at Dallas the week before, it's either 3 or 4 man rushes, every play - how did that work? Yet the play that got the go ahead score at the 4 minute mark was a blitz. I'm not sure what they look at during the next few days that would lead them to think if we're up one score Thursday night late "hey, lets play coverage"..............
Adding four solid veteran players to the defense ...
... in Martinez, Fackrell, Bradberry, and Ryan, plus an infusion of young linebackers, has me feeling optimistic that the arrow is pointing up.
But we won’t know until we see how they perform via Philly, which has an absurd number of injured players all across their offense. Let’s see what Graham can put together ...
Crowder is a great compliment to Martinez because of his speed
I always read your reviews to confirm or deny what I think I have seen in each game/player. I agree that we have the best LB talent we have had in years and some of our DB talent is very promising. I think if we could just muster up a better pass rush it would take much of the pressure off the the LB's and DB's in coverage. We give qb's way too much time to look at their #2 and #3 options. On the offensive side, a true #1 WR and better depth at the position would do DJ a world of good. I would roll him out a little more as well since he has no real pocket to step up into.
but not a fan of the timid defensive play calling, and punting the ball on 4th and 2 from the Washington 37 yard line. When the the game has been on the line with a lead both last week and at Dallas the week before, it's either 3 or 4 man rushes, every play - how did that work? Yet the play that got the go ahead score at the 4 minute mark was a blitz. I'm not sure what they look at during the next few days that would lead them to think if we're up one score Thursday night late "hey, lets play coverage"..............
Yet if the Giants go for it on 4th-and-2 and don't make it, do they win the game?
I am hoping your take on the tackles is correct and hoping I can be patient this year when they regress during certain games. Do you think we se Lemieux in anytime soon? As you said, your review of Zeitler had been consistent and I am not all that impressed with Hernandez considering its his 3rd year. When do they see what they have in Shane?
Hernandez isn't going anywhere. They won't pull him out of the lineup. He hasn't been bad...he's just simply in the "is what it is" category. It could be much worse than him.
but not a fan of the timid defensive play calling, and punting the ball on 4th and 2 from the Washington 37 yard line. When the the game has been on the line with a lead both last week and at Dallas the week before, it's either 3 or 4 man rushes, every play - how did that work? Yet the play that got the go ahead score at the 4 minute mark was a blitz. I'm not sure what they look at during the next few days that would lead them to think if we're up one score Thursday night late "hey, lets play coverage"..............
Yet if the Giants go for it on 4th-and-2 and don't make it, do they win the game?
Good point but I agree with the Riverboat Ron 'take' in that situation. We beat the skins by playing conservatively and not taking that chance of not making a 4th and 2. I don't think we are winning this division even with this win. And I believe the consensus on here is that this is a building and learning year. If you make the 4th and 2 you are also giving your D a little more time and less time for them to score. I am NOT going to make it a 'fire judge' call, just a preference that I'd like a HC to make.
for it, but the main difference for good football teams and bad ones? Coaching and QB play.
Majority of GMs have a similar success rate when it comes to finding talent. Gettleman is no worse or better than some teams that are in the playoffs a good amount of times.
It's up to the coaches to get the very best out of these guys, and the QB to be able to lead the team to wins. And it would seem that Judge's staff is already worlds ahead of what we are used to. Perfect example is Matt Peart - would you have trusted him to even sniff the playing field with the prior staff as a rookie? And play well? Would the prior staff bench Andrew Thomas early on for the meeting issue? Would Crowder be playing? Would Gates be playing center? Would they have benched Downs pretty much immediately after it was apparent he sucked?
I'm guessing the answer is no to all of these questions.
for it, but the main difference for good football teams and bad ones? Coaching and QB play.
Majority of GMs have a similar success rate when it comes to finding talent. Gettleman is no worse or better than some teams that are in the playoffs a good amount of times.
It's up to the coaches to get the very best out of these guys, and the QB to be able to lead the team to wins. And it would seem that Judge's staff is already worlds ahead of what we are used to. Perfect example is Matt Peart - would you have trusted him to even sniff the playing field with the prior staff as a rookie? And play well? Would the prior staff bench Andrew Thomas early on for the meeting issue? Would Crowder be playing? Would Gates be playing center? Would they have benched Downs pretty much immediately after it was apparent he sucked?
I'm guessing the answer is no to all of these questions.
My memory is longer than yours. I vividly remember posters saying, "McAdoo is a breath of fresh air, Coughlin would never have done that." Then I remember people on BBI saying "Shurmur is different. McAdoo never would have done that."
If the Giants keep losing, the fans will turn on Judge too. (We're already seeing that via proxy...Jason Garrett).
The two most popular targets for fans are always the head coach and the quarterback. It's been that way as long as I can remember.
i tend to agree BUT - a few things are different. #1 - The changing out of guys (rookies mainly) getting reps early in games. That really hasn't happened before has it? Guys getting benched pretty much immediately (Downs, Love, Yiadom) for poor play. I mean, we let Flowers start every game at LT for 3 seasons before the coaches realized he sucked. We started Bobby Hart forever. He was terrible. I'm interested to see what the coaching staff does with Fleming. He has been below average (not horrible) but it would appear that Peart might be a better option than him.
I agree that the "fresh air" thing is sometimes what we always say, but I'm talking about in game decisions, and roster decisions. Not necessarily X's and O's.
I don't recall anyone saying that Shurmur was different. He was essentially horrible at everything, right out of the gate. We started out 1-7 in 2018, a lot of those losses due to poor coaching decisions. He was terrible, and got worse as it went along.
it's incredibly obvious that the team is better prepared from the outset, and the game plans are just better, with Joe Judge as a head coach vs Pat Shurmur. The game was over in the 1st quarter more often than not when it came to Shurmur.
i tend to agree BUT - a few things are different. #1 - The changing out of guys (rookies mainly) getting reps early in games. That really hasn't happened before has it? Guys getting benched pretty much immediately (Downs, Love, Yiadom) for poor play. I mean, we let Flowers start every game at LT for 3 seasons before the coaches realized he sucked. We started Bobby Hart forever. He was terrible. I'm interested to see what the coaching staff does with Fleming. He has been below average (not horrible) but it would appear that Peart might be a better option than him.
Perhaps this coach is able to operate from a different standpoint; No HoF QB cemented in place, a mandate from ownership to change what needs to be changed and not under a 2 year timeframe to get us to the superbowl? I think he's trying those players out because he can, which I agree is refreshing and because they seem to be decent. If they sucked as well we'd be even more pissed.
I don't recall anyone saying that Shurmur was different. He was essentially horrible at everything, right out of the gate. We started out 1-7 in 2018, a lot of those losses due to poor coaching decisions. He was terrible, and got worse as it went along.
They did. Shurmur was very popular on BBI when we made the switch.
i tend to agree BUT - a few things are different. #1 - The changing out of guys (rookies mainly) getting reps early in games. That really hasn't happened before has it? Guys getting benched pretty much immediately (Downs, Love, Yiadom) for poor play. I mean, we let Flowers start every game at LT for 3 seasons before the coaches realized he sucked. We started Bobby Hart forever. He was terrible. I'm interested to see what the coaching staff does with Fleming. He has been below average (not horrible) but it would appear that Peart might be a better option than him.
I agree that the "fresh air" thing is sometimes what we always say, but I'm talking about in game decisions, and roster decisions. Not necessarily X's and O's.
Oh short-term memory... we had tons of posts about how Coughlin would never play rookies, but look McAdoo will!!!
Oh short-term memory... we had tons of posts about how Coughlin would never play rookies, but look McAdoo will!!!
I don't remember that...but even if it were true, my point still stands that McAdoo kept them in the lineup even though they were dreadful. Judge isn't doing that.
think it's not any different. To me it's clear with Judge with the kind of program he wants to run. He just benched Andrew Thomas, and Peppers already came out today saying it was a message to the team, nobody is above the rules. Nobody gets to play just because they were drafted high.
That's the difference I'm talking about. McAdoo had zero control over the team and zero clue how to manage the roster. Shurmur - he was respected - but he was a horrific head coach with preparation and game management.
I am going to allow myself to feel good after reading that
there are pieces here. Give things a little time and maybe we see more questions turn into answers. I really think the D is on to something finally. it still needs talent, but there are legit pieces in place and some of those pieces are hard to find. I really really really hope McKinney can come back soon and get a lot of reps. We need that kind of player so badly and a cheap cost controlled stud back there would do wonders. We'd only really need more athleticism on the edge.
Need to see another good week run blocking from this OL. Keep it up.
Oh short-term memory... we had tons of posts about how Coughlin would never play rookies, but look McAdoo will!!!
I don't remember that...but even if it were true, my point still stands that McAdoo kept them in the lineup even though they were dreadful. Judge isn't doing that.
Absolutely people swore TC would never play rookies. Constant din.....
we've got our coach, time to find some more players
I am so happy with how he has handled some of the younger players I almost forgot how important that quality is. The fact that Judge found a way to get Peart in the lineup and even benched Thomas at the same time, I love it. I know Thomas wasn't benched for his play but just the fact that this change in the lineup occurred for any reason, I love Judge's attitude with players. No one is safe. And he's going to coach every single detail and if you don't show aptitude you're fucking out.
I finally trust the coaching here to truly determine a player's worth. This is so huge in regards to Jones. If Judge trusts Jones, I trust him too. He won't stick with a QB due to draft status.
Judge's game feel seems to be on point too but that's another topic for another day.
yes, a clear example of that is Crowder. Look, he ultimately might not be an answer for us, but he's sure as hell better than Downs. He was the last pick of the draft and is getting time for us already because he's shown to be better than anyone else on the roster at that position - which goes to my earlier point about Shurmur and McAdoo not doing that.
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
Such a weird game. If you told me that in the first half the Giants would have an INT in Washington territory, that Washington would miss a chip shot field goal and that Jones would have a 49 yard run I'd think the Giants would have more than a 3 point lead.
Similarly, Washington did not punt until the third period, and only punted once in the game. They had 5 drives of over 10 plays, Giants had 1. They had 24 1st downs to the Giants 16. They held the Giants to only 240 yards and outgained them by almost 100 yards.
Big defensive plays by the Giants at crucial times was the story here.
Such a weird game. If you told me that in the first half the Giants would have an INT in Washington territory, that Washington would miss a chip shot field goal and that Jones would have a 49 yard run I'd think the Giants would have more than a 3 point lead.
Similarly, Washington did not punt until the third period, and only punted once in the game. They had 5 drives of over 10 plays, Giants had 1. They had 24 1st downs to the Giants 16. They held the Giants to only 240 yards and outgained them by almost 100 yards.
Big defensive plays by the Giants at crucial times was the story here.
for it, but the main difference for good football teams and bad ones? Coaching and QB play.
Majority of GMs have a similar success rate when it comes to finding talent. Gettleman is no worse or better than some teams that are in the playoffs a good amount of times.
It's up to the coaches to get the very best out of these guys, and the QB to be able to lead the team to wins. And it would seem that Judge's staff is already worlds ahead of what we are used to. Perfect example is Matt Peart - would you have trusted him to even sniff the playing field with the prior staff as a rookie? And play well? Would the prior staff bench Andrew Thomas early on for the meeting issue? Would Crowder be playing? Would Gates be playing center? Would they have benched Downs pretty much immediately after it was apparent he sucked?
I'm guessing the answer is no to all of these questions.
I couldn't agree more with this. It's why people like you and I are so dug in here on DG. I simply don't hold GMs to the same standard, or same line of thinking that I apply to HCs and even QBs. Unless the GM is swinging and missing so often you can't ignore it, I can't just immediately go there. It's not a stubborn take on my part or me just wanting to be right about DG. I just don't think it makes that much of a difference, if that's the right wording to use. Sure the Gm is important, but condemning or defending the GM based on the win manifestation from that GM's tenure is not always that cut n dried a debate. that plus we're pretty much 2 years in...
yes, a clear example of that is Crowder. Look, he ultimately might not be an answer for us, but he's sure as hell better than Downs. He was the last pick of the draft and is getting time for us already because he's shown to be better than anyone else on the roster at that position - which goes to my earlier point about Shurmur and McAdoo not doing that.
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
We also could be drafting better. Ill go as far to say we are drafting better. We are adding 3rd and 4th and 5th rounders that actually contribute now. Nearly every year under DG. Go ahead and call me out. We never even trotted out a guy like Connelly, who played well for 2 games, under Reese (post 2011) let alone a guy like Slayton. And even the guys who have flashed for barely 10 minutes like Crowder, Peart and Gates---nope not even then.
The team appears to be better coached or at least is being run with a better eye for development, and the team is drafting better than they did in the mid 2010s. We need to do a lot better than that, but it's a start.
I'm talking about once the football starts being played, not when the hire happened.
With all due respect, you are not remembering this correctly. The Giants were 11-5 in McAdoo's first year and most of BBI was singing his praises.
The thing is McaDoo coached well with what he was given. Problem is, when you don't have an elite defense, an offense of ball control and letting your best player make a play isn't an offense to rely on. Winning masked the stink of how poor an offensive coordinator he actually was.
It was also a breath of fresh air and obvioius fools gold
I don't recall anyone saying that Shurmur was different. He was essentially horrible at everything, right out of the gate. We started out 1-7 in 2018, a lot of those losses due to poor coaching decisions. He was terrible, and got worse as it went along.
They did. Shurmur was very popular on BBI when we made the switch.
Shurmur was only popular because McAdoo was hated at that point. I felt very milque toast about him as a hire.
How many people were actually singing his praises outside the usual bizarely optimistic suspects like Milton.
RE: Adding four solid veteran players to the defense ...
... in Martinez, Fackrell, Bradberry, and Ryan, plus an infusion of young linebackers, has me feeling optimistic that the arrow is pointing up.
But we won’t know until we see how they perform via Philly, which has an absurd number of injured players all across their offense. Let’s see what Graham can put together ...
Due to the Philly injuries, I think we have a shot with Shepard coming back. This assumes Slayton and Shepard can both be effective.
This is also a game where I'd love for us to figure out how we can get Engram's speed to work for him. He doesn't have the "first step" cut (poor route runner) explosion needed to create quick separation; however, he does have pure speed.
I honestly believe that while we lack top end talent we do have a shot to win this game Thursday night and then we have a lot of time off to prepare for the Bucs as well as (drum roll...) have the coaches work out the system kinks and coach up players.
i'm not necessarily dug in on DG, I just think a lot of posters who automatically assume that we will start making better draft picks and better free agency signings once DG is gone, are completely and utterly clueless as to how drafting and FA works.
I made a point a few weeks ago about how the 49ers drafts really don't look all that much better than the Giants in recent years. I got laughed at. The difference? They've had Kyle Shanahan for 4 years now. They bought in. They took their lumps for 3-4 seasons and it still isn't perfect, but they've created a foundation.
Gettleman has been the GM for 3 offseasons (including draft and free agency periods) and for my money, people are really pissed because of 2018. The 2019 and 2020 decisions appear to be pointing up. Obviously he hasn't hit on every draft pick since then. The Baker decision backfired - but we found franchise type guys in the 2019 draft if Jones can prove he's the guy, there's still plenty of time to figure that out. Lawrence and Slayton are two other very good picks. 2020 - the free agency moves and draft picks appear to be solid. But, again, it's early. If McKinney turns out to be a good player it could be a home run draft, but we won't know until 1-2 years from now anyway. Bradberry might have been one of the best signings in all of football. Martinez was a great signing. Fackrell has been showing that he can play.
2018 - they tried to put lipstick on a pig and it failed miserably - maybe that was part of the reason they hired Shurmur, I'm not sure. But it didn't work, at all. But - it's not a reason to just fire a GM. It's not like DG spent 100M dollars on players to try and make the Super Bowl. They made 1 huge signing (Solder) and it didn't workout, the rest of the signings were veterans who just didn't have it anymore unfortunately, the money wasn't a huge issue. But the FA signings that year were bad, no question about it. But that was 1 season, it was 1 year. It set us back a year. People act like DG's decisions are all somehow from the same season. 2019, they (somewhat) hit the reset button, drafted a QB, didn't really touch the cap, let some contracts die out, and then 2020 they were ready to spend some money, hire a new coach, and get going on this team.
Unfortunately, some posters will never forgive DG for not restarting everything in 2018, and now they can't see the plan unfolding because they are still somehow extremely pissed off for keeping Eli and making some bad moves early on.
Mac - seemed like a good game planner. Didn't seem like he couldn't handle the players - the big personalities. Certainly could not handle adversity and challenging situations.
Shurmur - Such a nice guy. Clearly the players loved him. Seemed to be able to handle the players and obviously he can run an offense. Overall job seemed too big for him.
Judge - So easy to root for. A genuinely great person, which is so surprising since he comes from Philly. As a coach he's not perfect - he needs experience and maybe some head-coach maturity. But he seems to be starting from a great spot and absolutely looks like he should grow into the job and become one of the greats. Assembled an all-star coaching staff. Now the teams needs to equip him with a better than average roster even if that means completely overhauling the scouting dept.
I was disappointed that Mac and more so that Shurmur didn't work out. I will be crushed if Judge doesn't work out.
correctly, Washington took over around their 18 yard line - if we miss a fourth and 2 at the 37 yard line and gain 20 yards on a punt with 7 minutes to go in the third may cost us the game? I'm not following that logic.
To me that's poor coaching in that instance and sends the wrong message to the team, but that's just my opinion. Usually the more aggressive teams are more successful long term.
is that DG can scout college players, he can draft good college players. He can find guys in the mid rounds and UDFA. Both from his time in Carolina and with NYG. His drafts haven't been perfect though, it's been a mixed bag for sure, the key will be if he drafted the right QB in Jones, and if he did, he will be remembered for that. He was involved with hiring one of the worst coaches in the history of the NFL, which is part of the reason we were terrible in 2018 and 2019.
the punting decision, while it might not have been popular, ended up working out. The Giants got the ball back (I think after Washington might have gotten one first down?)
I swear I remember that Tiki once said he would play one or two more seasons then retire. Then pretty much on schedule he retired. I wasn't surprised, he said he would do that.
The point is sometimes we are told what to expect but we then don't have the patience or memory to hold on to that. We have been told that Thomas would be a work in progress for a while, that he would be unlikely to have early success, that in the long run though he'd be a very good player for a long time. So guess what, that is exactly what is playing out, so just grit your teeth and ride it out without complaining.
Same with Judge / a new offense with a broken offseason / Jones / the team in general. We were not led to believe we'd have a quick turnaround, but we'd have to be patient during growing pains despite some examples of rapid change with other teams.
So basically there should be no surprises here. Disappointment yes, but it's not like we were sold a bill of goods and it wasn't delivered.
Except when it comes to the GM. He has only somewhat come through with some of his 'promises' and intentions. Not a complete failure, but not enough successes to keep going in that direction.
I agree we need new blood & new thinking. I like what we have done lately with contracts and letting some people go who sucked or let them go sooner rather than holding on too long. But that change seems to be us catching up with 'normal'.
Beyond that we need a better roster, clearly, and we need that sooner than later. That's the only thing that can ease the growing pains we were told to expect and get us back up the ladder relatively quickly.
i think judge is very aware that he has to manage the psyche of the entire team...he knows the offense is a struggle right now and i think we've already seen the defense collapse a little in frustration with the offense (the SF game). If he goes there and doesn't make it, i think he's worried the d loses steam a little bit. is it ideal? no. i think he wants to be aggressive in that spot but i think he's aware of what he has right now. this team needed a win and he was trying to do whatever he needed to do in order to get it.
then score a TD on the drive, maybe they don't need to stop a 2 point conversion to hang on by the skin of their teeth. I firmly believe coaching scared losses more games than it wins. I think history has proven that out. In a 3 point game mid third quarter, fourth and short inside the other teams 40 should be a go for every time IMO.
i'm not necessarily dug in on DG, I just think a lot of posters who automatically assume that we will start making better draft picks and better free agency signings once DG is gone, are completely and utterly clueless as to how drafting and FA works.
What did you mean posters are clueless as to how drafting and FA works? In fact, better question...how does it work?
correctly, Washington took over around their 18 yard line - if we miss a fourth and 2 at the 37 yard line and gain 20 yards on a punt with 7 minutes to go in the third may cost us the game? I'm not following that logic.
To me that's poor coaching in that instance and sends the wrong message to the team, but that's just my opinion. Usually the more aggressive teams are more successful long term.
I'm talking about the 4th-and-2 down at the goal line.
yes, a clear example of that is Crowder. Look, he ultimately might not be an answer for us, but he's sure as hell better than Downs. He was the last pick of the draft and is getting time for us already because he's shown to be better than anyone else on the roster at that position - which goes to my earlier point about Shurmur and McAdoo not doing that.
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
We also could be drafting better. Ill go as far to say we are drafting better. We are adding 3rd and 4th and 5th rounders that actually contribute now. Nearly every year under DG. Go ahead and call me out. We never even trotted out a guy like Connelly, who played well for 2 games, under Reese (post 2011) let alone a guy like Slayton. And even the guys who have flashed for barely 10 minutes like Crowder, Peart and Gates---nope not even then.
The team appears to be better coached or at least is being run with a better eye for development, and the team is drafting better than they did in the mid 2010s. We need to do a lot better than that, but it's a start.
At what point does Connelly become freaking Chuck Norris around this place. He played 5 GAMES!!!
BTW, Ever heard of a few guys named BJ Goodson and Devon Kennard?? Drafted in the 4th and 5th round. Worlds better than the chosen one!
the Washington Football Team abbreviation of WFT as What The Fuck? Doesn't matter. my Dyslexia kicked in and gave me a good laugh about the Washington Football Team. =8^D LOL!!!
posters are clueless in thinking that hiring a new GM is going to automatically mean that we hit on more draft picks and free agency signings. Posters are clueless to the fact that majority of GMs in football have the exact same percentage when it comes to this stuff. They say things like "Gettleman can't identify talent!" when in reality, he absolutely can, is proven to be able to do that, but it's coaching and good QB play that puts players over the top in the NFL. And GM's go through rough stretches. Reese had a flawed philosophy and ultimately was fired because he only relied on athleticism as a measure for football players. But - he had some good years for us from 2007-2012 which helped us win 2 SBs.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
posters are clueless in thinking that hiring a new GM is going to automatically mean that we hit on more draft picks and free agency signings. Posters are clueless to the fact that majority of GMs in football have the exact same percentage when it comes to this stuff. They say things like "Gettleman can't identify talent!" when in reality, he absolutely can, is proven to be able to do that, but it's coaching and good QB play that puts players over the top in the NFL. And GM's go through rough stretches. Reese had a flawed philosophy and ultimately was fired because he only relied on athleticism as a measure for football players. But - he had some good years for us from 2007-2012 which helped us win 2 SBs.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
This is what I believe also. Most talent is close on the mundane players. It is the ability of coaches to eke out all of those players' ability or teach how to make that ability viable.
BB, is able to squeeze orange juice from lemons. Bill Parcells knew how to motivate players. Yes as some point there needs to be superior talent in the right places. Think of Corey Webster, nothing for almost two years and then boom. Bill Walsh could script an offense for all occasions.
immensely important in deciding winners. But not sure I agree with the concept that majority of GMs have exact same % hits on drafts and free agents. Not going to list all the reasons, but for one thing not all players are created equal. A hit on a #4 pick that become an elite Left Tackle for a decade is far more important than 2nd round Safety that starts but is only a meddling player for 5 years. Both are hits but at varying degrees.
I will take a look at NE, SEA and SF drafts.
In the meanwhile please answer my earlier question...how do you think it works?
He starts Sunday. I'm not sure why this is being hailed as a credit to the coach. They flat out said it wasn't performance-based, and went right back to Thomas during the game.
I like Judge just fine, but its not something to throw roses at him for. They have been finding snaps for Peart for two weeks. Its the right thing to do if they think he can contribute.
i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
And with all due respect, posters complain we don't have a #1 receiver and a pass rush because they see that DG is not replacing the guys he decided to jettison at these position. Sometimes you have to have a re-fill strategy which actually requires extra draft picks, but we have a GM that never trades down and/or bundles up picks for his targeted players (Ogletree, Baker, LW for example).
Lastly, your last paragraph is all hope. Not excellence. Best thing Gettleman did in 2020 was bring in Bradberry and concentrate on fixing the OL in the draft that he forgot to do for the first couple years.
posters are clueless in thinking that hiring a new GM is going to automatically mean that we hit on more draft picks and free agency signings. Posters are clueless to the fact that majority of GMs in football have the exact same percentage when it comes to this stuff. They say things like "Gettleman can't identify talent!" when in reality, he absolutely can, is proven to be able to do that, but it's coaching and good QB play that puts players over the top in the NFL. And GM's go through rough stretches. Reese had a flawed philosophy and ultimately was fired because he only relied on athleticism as a measure for football players. But - he had some good years for us from 2007-2012 which helped us win 2 SBs.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
Just to be clear, the GM is responsible for using all of the devices at his disposal to build the team - draft, free agency, trades, cap management, cuts, contract negotiations, etc.
Thus, it's a helluva lot more than just draft hit %. And the key to the draft is effectively being able to maneuver around the draft to optimize value and opportunity.
So tell me - of all of those attributes what exactly has Gettleman done well to give you any hope?
Yes, coaching is important, but don't ever understate the team building process. It is critical. At the end of the day, most of these games are won before they are played based on the ability to gather and manage talent.
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
It works for now, I mean who the heck else are they paying? The hard questions are a year or two down the road. I'm most interested to see what they do at DL.
This defense isn't playoffs-good right now, and if they want to get there, they're going to have to hit for power in the draft and so far three years in, they don't do that.
Leonard Williams is probably going to get paid a long term deal. I would expect that Williams and Lawrence are both going to be here long term, and that's a lot to spend on one single position.
It becomes a problem once they have other players to pay. Nobody thinks they won't extend Barkley, so that factors in too.
And in the best case scenario with Daniel Jones, they have to pay him in 2 years as well.
your comments about free agency and what DG did this year is sort of the point that I’m getting at - some posters will just always find a way to turn a positive into a negative.
DG gets blasted here for his misses in 2018 free agency, and rightly so.
And then when it appears (so far anyway) that he had an excellent FA class in 2020...you guys go “wellllll that’s not exactly the best way to build a team now is it?”
Which brings me to my overall point, if we had fired DG in the offseason and our new GM had done exactly what DG did in 2020, this board would be over the moon with that guy.
i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
Fair?
More than fair - and based on that logic I’d say DG is doing ok.
2018: Barkley (pro bowler) Hernandez (decent starter) Carter was turning into an effective player into the injury - who knows now. Gates - looks like a possible answer at Center
2019: Jones, Lawrence, Slayton: we’ve talked about this a lot but if Jones turns into the franchise QB we all want and expect him to be, that’s a really good draft. Lawrence and Slayton have pro bowl potential (Lawrence more so)
2020: Thomas, McKinney, Peart will presumably all be starters and let’s hope 1 of them makes the pro bowl. We don’t know yet. Jury is out on the rest of the draft but perhaps we found 2 more starters in Holmes and Lemieux. Crowder - who knows
Ryan - do you think you should take into account the Giants
are a rebuilding team winning on average 4 games per year. And with that drafting starters is a bit easier since the roster stinks.
And even if you don’t agree, finding 2-3 starters a year and still only winning 4 games per year doesn’t get anybody jazzed you’re doing anything positive .
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
There's a ton of difference in the contracts we gave to Vernon, Jackrabbit, Snacks and resigning JPP versus what we gave to Martinez, Fackrell and Bradberry.
Win one ugly ass game against an equally terrible team and there are people who will leap to praise Mr. Magoo. "Well AKSHULLY Gettleman has done pretty well!"
Now excuse me while I wipe away several tears of helpless laughter.
If Ryan doesn't already work for the Giants PR department
not trying to toot my own horn but everything I’ve said the last 3 weeks has come true. I said we’d have a chance to beat the Rams, I got laughed at. I said when we didn’t win, you guys would still complain, it happened. I said we’d beat the Cowboys, didn’t happen, but got laughed at at the notion. I said when we beat Washington, you guys would find a way to say well it doesn’t matter, that happened.
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
I remember reading the post game thread after the Giants beat Detroit in 2016 to get to 10-4. There was a lot of “we’ve found our coach” - McAdoo was very highly thought of, deservedly so. His game management was fantastic that season.
The biggest hope for the Giants right now is Judge, and honestly, it’s enough of overhauling the coaching staff. Judge deserves a long leash to build this.
you’re too smart of a guy to let your hatred of DG cloud every single response or comment you make on this board. You’re the type of guy that has been so jaded by NYG lack of winning the last 8-9 seasons that you think it’s all DG’s fault. You can’t admit that the FA class this year has been very good because nothing positive that happens is a positive for you, there’s always an excuse.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
I guess I'm in the presence of a prodigious prognosticator
do tell me oh great football soothsayer, how many wins do the Giants get to this season?
The Cowboys lost their starting QB mid game and still beat us, that's really not good. No matter how you slice it, that is so deflating to a team and we couldn't capitalize.
We've actually done well against Washington in this period of futility, it's not the most bold claim. I think if we were going to win most of us would have wanted to look a lot better than we did. Especially in crunch time, again, against a backup QB.
I'm sure you'd say we were "in the Rams game" pretty much regardless of how that game played out.
It's really strange to say "I'm right about everything" and include an example where you were wrong as well, while only naming 3 things. It feels like you'd be ready to say you were right about Washington too if they converted that 2 point conversion.
My comment about you being in PR wasn't even snarky really. You spin this stuff beyond the point of rational thought, I alternate being impressed and irritated when I read your posts
You realize that almost half of the few wins of the Gettleman era have come against the Skins, right? So this extremely unimpressive win isn't exactly a surprise.
we were winning 10-9 in the 4th quarter against the Rams on the road, how is that not being “in the game?”
Sometimes I think you guys don’t hear yourselves. You say we are going to get blown out all week...and then when we don’t.....it’s like you have to realize how much of a moron you sounded like and just revert to insults against NYG and other posters.
We won one game, and in part due to some shitty coaching by Riverboat Ron. The season isn't over because of how shitty our division is, not how great Gettleman has done.
I realize that beating Washington isn’t some great thing. All I’m asking for is some fans to admit that no matter the outcome of that game, they were going to shit on the Giants anyway.
This coming from the same fans that always say “it doesn’t matter how you win, we’re a losing team and losers lose, winners win.”
I mean - we had half the board saying that only if Washington had gotten the 2 point, we would and should have lost. Meanwhile, us losing to the Rams and Cowboys was all our fault, not the success of the other team. It’s a joke.
you aren’t reading what I’m saying. I’m not saying DG has done “great.” I said 2018 was a disaster. Shurmur was a disaster. But 2019 and on I’m good with and think it’s going to get a lot better fairly soon.
You and other people here just can’t imagine that scenario, that’s fine.
It's easy to say playoff contention and call yourself right
I’m on record at 6 wins this season. 9 wins next season would be the barometer for me, that would mean playoff contention and a possible berth. It might not be, I said playoffs or damn close for 2021, that was my take.
The game due to Rivera’s shitty coaching? That’s news to me. I read all game long that Judge was the one being too conservative and Rivera was the one making the right moves in going for everything. Funny how that changed once we won the game.
That’s fine - I don’t lose my shit when people predict 2 or 3 or 4 wins or whatever - I just have a different opinion. I also liked the Leonard Williams trade and got laughed at for that. I’m not saying it was a home run but Seems to be working out decently, funny how those posters seem to be quiet about that trade.
That’s fine - I don’t lose my shit when people predict 2 or 3 or 4 wins or whatever - I just have a different opinion. I also liked the Leonard Williams trade and got laughed at for that. I’m not saying it was a home run but Seems to be working out decently, funny how those posters seem to be quiet about that trade.
This isn't a good take, it's not working out decently. Our team has tons of holes and we were in dire need of an extra 3rd down pick. There are a litany of reasons that it was at the time and still is very much a horrible trade but if you haven't accepted that by now you won't.
you’re too smart of a guy to let your hatred of DG cloud every single response or comment you make on this board. You’re the type of guy that has been so jaded by NYG lack of winning the last 8-9 seasons that you think it’s all DG’s fault. You can’t admit that the FA class this year has been very good because nothing positive that happens is a positive for you, there’s always an excuse.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
Ryan - Why can't a fan tear into the bad play/decisions made by the team while they have been one of the worst teams in the league for years, and still not celebrate them when they win?
not trying to toot my own horn but everything I’ve said the last 3 weeks has come true. I said we’d have a chance to beat the Rams, I got laughed at. I said when we didn’t win, you guys would still complain, it happened. I said we’d beat the Cowboys, didn’t happen, but got laughed at at the notion. I said when we beat Washington, you guys would find a way to say well it doesn’t matter, that happened.
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
I think the phrase was "you just have an answer for everything".
That’s fine - I don’t lose my shit when people predict 2 or 3 or 4 wins or whatever - I just have a different opinion. I also liked the Leonard Williams trade and got laughed at for that. I’m not saying it was a home run but Seems to be working out decently, funny how those posters seem to be quiet about that trade.
Quiet about that trade?? The LW deal is literally mocked almost every day on this board by dozens of posters, and there is a probably one thread a week discussing what is still best to do with him.
Sentiment is now growing to trade him before the Nov deadline, particularly if Giants lose Thur night. You will see plenty of threads about who can we trade on Fri if that happens.
Sure it did. If the Giants had wrecked the Skins, beaten them by three TDs, dominated on both sides of the ball, I'd be saying very different things today. Nothing remotely like that happened.
think sentiment is "growing" in regards to trading Williams.
It is the same posters who railed against the trade now saying we have to get something in return for him, even some wanting to settle for a 3rd rounder in return.
Williams is playing very well this season, but so many are dug in on their take that giving him credit has been hard to come by - it is still a situation those posters want to move on from by getting rid of Williams.
Just because a small, vocal group makes Williams a daily topic doesn't mean that sentiment is growing to trade him. It just means that small, vocal group keeps posting about him
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
There's a ton of difference in the contracts we gave to Vernon, Jackrabbit, Snacks and resigning JPP versus what we gave to Martinez, Fackrell and Bradberry.
I can't even believe it is being compared to 2017
I dont know why you'd object to this. The defense is built around guys making veteran money. I'm not arguing whether the contracts are "good" or not.
to the idea that it is similar to 2017. The contracts handed out that year weren't sustainable while the contracts given to the players brought in this year are reasonable.
We didn't give out a Vernon-like contract in the group. Or a Snacks-like contract. They are all affordable pieces.
When we signed the players in 2017, SPORTRAC had us projected as being the 29th worst team for the cap in 2021. In 2023, they have us projected as being 6th in cap room.
exactly where we're at now. We acquired him on 10/29/19 and in the regular season since acquiring him we're 3-11. Yes, he has helped improve our defense, but we spent a draft asset, for 1.5 years of control of a player, that hasn't done anything for us record wise, which is I think why a lot of posters/people were against this. Now we're at a crossroads on what is an acceptable long term deal, for a good not great player. For reference Cam Heyward (#7 DT by annual $), is at $16.4M, while Dee Ford (#7 DE by annual $), is at $17.1M. I used the #7 average just for some sort of barometer.
I agree in not trading him for the sake of trading him, and if his salary demands are exorbitant (I'm sure we have an idea of where he's at), we shouldn't sign him to justify the trade. But I'm sure we're listening if anyone is out there, and there's always the compensatory pick formula to keep in mind (with the space we have I'm sure some of our signings would offset, but it's a thought).
to the idea that it is similar to 2017. The contracts handed out that year weren't sustainable while the contracts given to the players brought in this year are reasonable.
We didn't give out a Vernon-like contract in the group. Or a Snacks-like contract. They are all affordable pieces.
When we signed the players in 2017, SPORTRAC had us projected as being the 29th worst team for the cap in 2021. In 2023, they have us projected as being 6th in cap room.
Besides the money, the nature of the signings were different. in 2017 there was a situation where we were completely relying on those signings to not fill holes, but completely elevate and change the D overnight. It worked for one year.
This year, the signings were meant to plug holes and improve the D, but also improve depth somewhat. It was not about creating a top D, but just trying to fill holes around a young and thin core so we wouldn't be terrible. Both have accomplished their intended goals. This year isn't a drastic turnaround, but rather a building block with some building block players to work with. Superstars weren't added and nobody is expected to be one moving forward. But, solid guys were added with the expectation that they anchor an improving D over the next couple of years.
are talking about the annual dollars when it comes to Williams and that's not the best way to value what the contract is actually worth. It's about the years and guaranteed money.
For example if we resign Williams for 3/45 and the first 2 years are guaranteed, similar to the Bradberry deal, I think most fans would like that.
The cap situations are different because they're not paying out any big money on the offensive side of the ball right now other than Solder and Tate. Of course they project to be cap-healthier. That was a given. Soon they'll have to spend some real money to keep players, which makes it tighter.
The thrust of the post is that the defense is mainly reliant on the ability of players you brought in from outside and paid a lot to do so. You spent the money for those players but the defense is, quite frankly, middle of the pack average, and situationally very poor (read: getting off the field on third down). They'll need to spend more money on top of this OR get much more productive in the draft, which they struggle at and have plenty of offensive needs to fill, to take it to the next level.
are talking about the annual dollars when it comes to Williams and that's not the best way to value what the contract is actually worth. It's about the years and guaranteed money.
For example if we resign Williams for 3/45 and the first 2 years are guaranteed, similar to the Bradberry deal, I think most fans would like that.
Of course, but I just wanted to use a barometer on salaries for DT/Edge currently. Looking just at DT/Edge signings from this year's FA class, what is the realm you think he's going to aim for:
Chris Jones- 4 years/$85M ($60M GTD)
Arik Armstead- 5 years/$85M ($48.5 GTD)
Dante Fowler- 3 years/$45M ($29M GTD)
Javon Hargreave- 3 years/$39M ($26M GTD)
DJ Reader- 4 years/$53M ($20.25M GTD)
There were a few other players playing out the franchise tag this year that looks like they'll go to market next year, like Yannick Ngakoue, Jadeveon Clowney, Shaquil Barrett, Bud Dupree.
As far as Williams is concerned, his good play doesn't negate the idiocy of the trade. I doubt well make any trades, which means we only have five picks next year.
Our WRs are horrific and an injured DS is super scary for DJ. Hopefully SS & DS can come in together as Tate looks done.
Thanks- as always - for the insightful review!
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
Obviously the question marks are still there at many other positions, specifically QB, EDGE, WR, S etc but its a start!
Nice review Sy. Thank You.
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
3 Rookies on an OL, with 2 at OT, seems like a VERY dangerous proposition....but then again, I guess things cant really get much worse. Or could they?
Man the Solder opt out really is gonna sting next season when we have that huge cap hit.
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
the irony of it all. 5 promising OL starters picked by Gettleman the Incompetent :-)
With all the screaming on BBI about Thomas, I refer people to your draft review of Thomas saying that the team and fans will need patience with him while he cleans up his technique deficiencies. Thomas has not had a weak opponent yet. I agree this is not Flowers. Kid owned up to his mistake and said it will not happen again....I believe him. He does not moan, whine or hide.
I like how Judge is blending in the young oline as the season progresses. I suspect once Peart is situated on the line somewhere, Lemieux will start to be introduced at one or both guard positions.
My world for just one more competent WR.
Appreciate your weekly reviews and I sense that for the first time in a long time you sense a light at the end of the tunnel that is not a freight train - it may merely be just the loom, but it is there.
I am a big critic of Gettleman and will continue to be, but I do have to give him props on this year's class of free agents. Bradberry, Martinez and Fackrel have all been good additions. However, there are still way too many misses on this roster over the past few years.
Quote:
that thinks Marcus Golden is useless. i was happy to see him tip that pass, but thats about all he's got. that guy cannot get to the QB and never requires a double team.
I'd like to see the O Line look like this by the end of the year.
Peart, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Thomas
Its only a matter of time that Lemieux replaces Ziegler, and Flemming gets benched.
3 Rookies on an OL, with 2 at OT, seems like a VERY dangerous proposition....but then again, I guess things cant really get much worse. Or could they?
if Soldier didnt opt out we could have had Thomas and Peart getting experience on the right side but we're at where we are at.
But we won’t know until we see how they perform via Philly, which has an absurd number of injured players all across their offense. Let’s see what Graham can put together ...
The fumble Brown got a good rush on the outside forcing thr step up right into Fackrell..
Yet if the Giants go for it on 4th-and-2 and don't make it, do they win the game?
Hernandez isn't going anywhere. They won't pull him out of the lineup. He hasn't been bad...he's just simply in the "is what it is" category. It could be much worse than him.
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but not a fan of the timid defensive play calling, and punting the ball on 4th and 2 from the Washington 37 yard line. When the the game has been on the line with a lead both last week and at Dallas the week before, it's either 3 or 4 man rushes, every play - how did that work? Yet the play that got the go ahead score at the 4 minute mark was a blitz. I'm not sure what they look at during the next few days that would lead them to think if we're up one score Thursday night late "hey, lets play coverage"..............
Yet if the Giants go for it on 4th-and-2 and don't make it, do they win the game?
Good point but I agree with the Riverboat Ron 'take' in that situation. We beat the skins by playing conservatively and not taking that chance of not making a 4th and 2. I don't think we are winning this division even with this win. And I believe the consensus on here is that this is a building and learning year. If you make the 4th and 2 you are also giving your D a little more time and less time for them to score. I am NOT going to make it a 'fire judge' call, just a preference that I'd like a HC to make.
Majority of GMs have a similar success rate when it comes to finding talent. Gettleman is no worse or better than some teams that are in the playoffs a good amount of times.
It's up to the coaches to get the very best out of these guys, and the QB to be able to lead the team to wins. And it would seem that Judge's staff is already worlds ahead of what we are used to. Perfect example is Matt Peart - would you have trusted him to even sniff the playing field with the prior staff as a rookie? And play well? Would the prior staff bench Andrew Thomas early on for the meeting issue? Would Crowder be playing? Would Gates be playing center? Would they have benched Downs pretty much immediately after it was apparent he sucked?
I'm guessing the answer is no to all of these questions.
Majority of GMs have a similar success rate when it comes to finding talent. Gettleman is no worse or better than some teams that are in the playoffs a good amount of times.
It's up to the coaches to get the very best out of these guys, and the QB to be able to lead the team to wins. And it would seem that Judge's staff is already worlds ahead of what we are used to. Perfect example is Matt Peart - would you have trusted him to even sniff the playing field with the prior staff as a rookie? And play well? Would the prior staff bench Andrew Thomas early on for the meeting issue? Would Crowder be playing? Would Gates be playing center? Would they have benched Downs pretty much immediately after it was apparent he sucked?
I'm guessing the answer is no to all of these questions.
My memory is longer than yours. I vividly remember posters saying, "McAdoo is a breath of fresh air, Coughlin would never have done that." Then I remember people on BBI saying "Shurmur is different. McAdoo never would have done that."
If the Giants keep losing, the fans will turn on Judge too. (We're already seeing that via proxy...Jason Garrett).
The two most popular targets for fans are always the head coach and the quarterback. It's been that way as long as I can remember.
I agree that the "fresh air" thing is sometimes what we always say, but I'm talking about in game decisions, and roster decisions. Not necessarily X's and O's.
Perhaps this coach is able to operate from a different standpoint; No HoF QB cemented in place, a mandate from ownership to change what needs to be changed and not under a 2 year timeframe to get us to the superbowl? I think he's trying those players out because he can, which I agree is refreshing and because they seem to be decent. If they sucked as well we'd be even more pissed.
They did. Shurmur was very popular on BBI when we made the switch.
I agree that the "fresh air" thing is sometimes what we always say, but I'm talking about in game decisions, and roster decisions. Not necessarily X's and O's.
Oh short-term memory... we had tons of posts about how Coughlin would never play rookies, but look McAdoo will!!!
With all due respect, you are not remembering this correctly. The Giants were 11-5 in McAdoo's first year and most of BBI was singing his praises.
Oh short-term memory... we had tons of posts about how Coughlin would never play rookies, but look McAdoo will!!!
I don't remember that...but even if it were true, my point still stands that McAdoo kept them in the lineup even though they were dreadful. Judge isn't doing that.
That's the difference I'm talking about. McAdoo had zero control over the team and zero clue how to manage the roster. Shurmur - he was respected - but he was a horrific head coach with preparation and game management.
Need to see another good week run blocking from this OL. Keep it up.
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Oh short-term memory... we had tons of posts about how Coughlin would never play rookies, but look McAdoo will!!!
I don't remember that...but even if it were true, my point still stands that McAdoo kept them in the lineup even though they were dreadful. Judge isn't doing that.
Absolutely people swore TC would never play rookies. Constant din.....
I am so happy with how he has handled some of the younger players I almost forgot how important that quality is. The fact that Judge found a way to get Peart in the lineup and even benched Thomas at the same time, I love it. I know Thomas wasn't benched for his play but just the fact that this change in the lineup occurred for any reason, I love Judge's attitude with players. No one is safe. And he's going to coach every single detail and if you don't show aptitude you're fucking out.
I finally trust the coaching here to truly determine a player's worth. This is so huge in regards to Jones. If Judge trusts Jones, I trust him too. He won't stick with a QB due to draft status.
Judge's game feel seems to be on point too but that's another topic for another day.
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
Similarly, Washington did not punt until the third period, and only punted once in the game. They had 5 drives of over 10 plays, Giants had 1. They had 24 1st downs to the Giants 16. They held the Giants to only 240 yards and outgained them by almost 100 yards.
Big defensive plays by the Giants at crucial times was the story here.
Similarly, Washington did not punt until the third period, and only punted once in the game. They had 5 drives of over 10 plays, Giants had 1. They had 24 1st downs to the Giants 16. They held the Giants to only 240 yards and outgained them by almost 100 yards.
Big defensive plays by the Giants at crucial times was the story here.
Should have said "the Giants would get an INT.."
Majority of GMs have a similar success rate when it comes to finding talent. Gettleman is no worse or better than some teams that are in the playoffs a good amount of times.
It's up to the coaches to get the very best out of these guys, and the QB to be able to lead the team to wins. And it would seem that Judge's staff is already worlds ahead of what we are used to. Perfect example is Matt Peart - would you have trusted him to even sniff the playing field with the prior staff as a rookie? And play well? Would the prior staff bench Andrew Thomas early on for the meeting issue? Would Crowder be playing? Would Gates be playing center? Would they have benched Downs pretty much immediately after it was apparent he sucked?
I'm guessing the answer is no to all of these questions.
I couldn't agree more with this. It's why people like you and I are so dug in here on DG. I simply don't hold GMs to the same standard, or same line of thinking that I apply to HCs and even QBs. Unless the GM is swinging and missing so often you can't ignore it, I can't just immediately go there. It's not a stubborn take on my part or me just wanting to be right about DG. I just don't think it makes that much of a difference, if that's the right wording to use. Sure the Gm is important, but condemning or defending the GM based on the win manifestation from that GM's tenure is not always that cut n dried a debate. that plus we're pretty much 2 years in...
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
We also could be drafting better. Ill go as far to say we are drafting better. We are adding 3rd and 4th and 5th rounders that actually contribute now. Nearly every year under DG. Go ahead and call me out. We never even trotted out a guy like Connelly, who played well for 2 games, under Reese (post 2011) let alone a guy like Slayton. And even the guys who have flashed for barely 10 minutes like Crowder, Peart and Gates---nope not even then.
The team appears to be better coached or at least is being run with a better eye for development, and the team is drafting better than they did in the mid 2010s. We need to do a lot better than that, but it's a start.
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I'm talking about once the football starts being played, not when the hire happened.
With all due respect, you are not remembering this correctly. The Giants were 11-5 in McAdoo's first year and most of BBI was singing his praises.
The thing is McaDoo coached well with what he was given. Problem is, when you don't have an elite defense, an offense of ball control and letting your best player make a play isn't an offense to rely on. Winning masked the stink of how poor an offensive coordinator he actually was.
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I don't recall anyone saying that Shurmur was different. He was essentially horrible at everything, right out of the gate. We started out 1-7 in 2018, a lot of those losses due to poor coaching decisions. He was terrible, and got worse as it went along.
They did. Shurmur was very popular on BBI when we made the switch.
Shurmur was only popular because McAdoo was hated at that point. I felt very milque toast about him as a hire.
How many people were actually singing his praises outside the usual bizarely optimistic suspects like Milton.
But we won’t know until we see how they perform via Philly, which has an absurd number of injured players all across their offense. Let’s see what Graham can put together ...
This is also a game where I'd love for us to figure out how we can get Engram's speed to work for him. He doesn't have the "first step" cut (poor route runner) explosion needed to create quick separation; however, he does have pure speed.
I honestly believe that while we lack top end talent we do have a shot to win this game Thursday night and then we have a lot of time off to prepare for the Bucs as well as (drum roll...) have the coaches work out the system kinks and coach up players.
I made a point a few weeks ago about how the 49ers drafts really don't look all that much better than the Giants in recent years. I got laughed at. The difference? They've had Kyle Shanahan for 4 years now. They bought in. They took their lumps for 3-4 seasons and it still isn't perfect, but they've created a foundation.
Gettleman has been the GM for 3 offseasons (including draft and free agency periods) and for my money, people are really pissed because of 2018. The 2019 and 2020 decisions appear to be pointing up. Obviously he hasn't hit on every draft pick since then. The Baker decision backfired - but we found franchise type guys in the 2019 draft if Jones can prove he's the guy, there's still plenty of time to figure that out. Lawrence and Slayton are two other very good picks. 2020 - the free agency moves and draft picks appear to be solid. But, again, it's early. If McKinney turns out to be a good player it could be a home run draft, but we won't know until 1-2 years from now anyway. Bradberry might have been one of the best signings in all of football. Martinez was a great signing. Fackrell has been showing that he can play.
2018 - they tried to put lipstick on a pig and it failed miserably - maybe that was part of the reason they hired Shurmur, I'm not sure. But it didn't work, at all. But - it's not a reason to just fire a GM. It's not like DG spent 100M dollars on players to try and make the Super Bowl. They made 1 huge signing (Solder) and it didn't workout, the rest of the signings were veterans who just didn't have it anymore unfortunately, the money wasn't a huge issue. But the FA signings that year were bad, no question about it. But that was 1 season, it was 1 year. It set us back a year. People act like DG's decisions are all somehow from the same season. 2019, they (somewhat) hit the reset button, drafted a QB, didn't really touch the cap, let some contracts die out, and then 2020 they were ready to spend some money, hire a new coach, and get going on this team.
Unfortunately, some posters will never forgive DG for not restarting everything in 2018, and now they can't see the plan unfolding because they are still somehow extremely pissed off for keeping Eli and making some bad moves early on.
Shurmur - Such a nice guy. Clearly the players loved him. Seemed to be able to handle the players and obviously he can run an offense. Overall job seemed too big for him.
Judge - So easy to root for. A genuinely great person, which is so surprising since he comes from Philly. As a coach he's not perfect - he needs experience and maybe some head-coach maturity. But he seems to be starting from a great spot and absolutely looks like he should grow into the job and become one of the greats. Assembled an all-star coaching staff. Now the teams needs to equip him with a better than average roster even if that means completely overhauling the scouting dept.
I was disappointed that Mac and more so that Shurmur didn't work out. I will be crushed if Judge doesn't work out.
To me that's poor coaching in that instance and sends the wrong message to the team, but that's just my opinion. Usually the more aggressive teams are more successful long term.
The point is sometimes we are told what to expect but we then don't have the patience or memory to hold on to that. We have been told that Thomas would be a work in progress for a while, that he would be unlikely to have early success, that in the long run though he'd be a very good player for a long time. So guess what, that is exactly what is playing out, so just grit your teeth and ride it out without complaining.
Same with Judge / a new offense with a broken offseason / Jones / the team in general. We were not led to believe we'd have a quick turnaround, but we'd have to be patient during growing pains despite some examples of rapid change with other teams.
So basically there should be no surprises here. Disappointment yes, but it's not like we were sold a bill of goods and it wasn't delivered.
Except when it comes to the GM. He has only somewhat come through with some of his 'promises' and intentions. Not a complete failure, but not enough successes to keep going in that direction.
I agree we need new blood & new thinking. I like what we have done lately with contracts and letting some people go who sucked or let them go sooner rather than holding on too long. But that change seems to be us catching up with 'normal'.
Beyond that we need a better roster, clearly, and we need that sooner than later. That's the only thing that can ease the growing pains we were told to expect and get us back up the ladder relatively quickly.
What did you mean posters are clueless as to how drafting and FA works? In fact, better question...how does it work?
To me that's poor coaching in that instance and sends the wrong message to the team, but that's just my opinion. Usually the more aggressive teams are more successful long term.
I'm talking about the 4th-and-2 down at the goal line.
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yes, a clear example of that is Crowder. Look, he ultimately might not be an answer for us, but he's sure as hell better than Downs. He was the last pick of the draft and is getting time for us already because he's shown to be better than anyone else on the roster at that position - which goes to my earlier point about Shurmur and McAdoo not doing that.
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
We also could be drafting better. Ill go as far to say we are drafting better. We are adding 3rd and 4th and 5th rounders that actually contribute now. Nearly every year under DG. Go ahead and call me out. We never even trotted out a guy like Connelly, who played well for 2 games, under Reese (post 2011) let alone a guy like Slayton. And even the guys who have flashed for barely 10 minutes like Crowder, Peart and Gates---nope not even then.
The team appears to be better coached or at least is being run with a better eye for development, and the team is drafting better than they did in the mid 2010s. We need to do a lot better than that, but it's a start.
At what point does Connelly become freaking Chuck Norris around this place. He played 5 GAMES!!!
BTW, Ever heard of a few guys named BJ Goodson and Devon Kennard?? Drafted in the 4th and 5th round. Worlds better than the chosen one!
Go Giants!!!
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
This is what I believe also. Most talent is close on the mundane players. It is the ability of coaches to eke out all of those players' ability or teach how to make that ability viable.
BB, is able to squeeze orange juice from lemons. Bill Parcells knew how to motivate players. Yes as some point there needs to be superior talent in the right places. Think of Corey Webster, nothing for almost two years and then boom. Bill Walsh could script an offense for all occasions.
I will take a look at NE, SEA and SF drafts.
In the meanwhile please answer my earlier question...how do you think it works?
I like Judge just fine, but its not something to throw roses at him for. They have been finding snaps for Peart for two weeks. Its the right thing to do if they think he can contribute.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
And with all due respect, posters complain we don't have a #1 receiver and a pass rush because they see that DG is not replacing the guys he decided to jettison at these position. Sometimes you have to have a re-fill strategy which actually requires extra draft picks, but we have a GM that never trades down and/or bundles up picks for his targeted players (Ogletree, Baker, LW for example).
Lastly, your last paragraph is all hope. Not excellence. Best thing Gettleman did in 2020 was bring in Bradberry and concentrate on fixing the OL in the draft that he forgot to do for the first couple years.
Fair?
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
Just to be clear, the GM is responsible for using all of the devices at his disposal to build the team - draft, free agency, trades, cap management, cuts, contract negotiations, etc.
Thus, it's a helluva lot more than just draft hit %. And the key to the draft is effectively being able to maneuver around the draft to optimize value and opportunity.
So tell me - of all of those attributes what exactly has Gettleman done well to give you any hope?
Yes, coaching is important, but don't ever understate the team building process. It is critical. At the end of the day, most of these games are won before they are played based on the ability to gather and manage talent.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
It felt like we were headed for a defensive-minded game with points being at a premium.
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We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
It works for now, I mean who the heck else are they paying? The hard questions are a year or two down the road. I'm most interested to see what they do at DL.
This defense isn't playoffs-good right now, and if they want to get there, they're going to have to hit for power in the draft and so far three years in, they don't do that.
Leonard Williams is probably going to get paid a long term deal. I would expect that Williams and Lawrence are both going to be here long term, and that's a lot to spend on one single position.
It becomes a problem once they have other players to pay. Nobody thinks they won't extend Barkley, so that factors in too.
And in the best case scenario with Daniel Jones, they have to pay him in 2 years as well.
DG gets blasted here for his misses in 2018 free agency, and rightly so.
And then when it appears (so far anyway) that he had an excellent FA class in 2020...you guys go “wellllll that’s not exactly the best way to build a team now is it?”
Which brings me to my overall point, if we had fired DG in the offseason and our new GM had done exactly what DG did in 2020, this board would be over the moon with that guy.
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i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
Fair?
More than fair - and based on that logic I’d say DG is doing ok.
2018: Barkley (pro bowler) Hernandez (decent starter) Carter was turning into an effective player into the injury - who knows now. Gates - looks like a possible answer at Center
2019: Jones, Lawrence, Slayton: we’ve talked about this a lot but if Jones turns into the franchise QB we all want and expect him to be, that’s a really good draft. Lawrence and Slayton have pro bowl potential (Lawrence more so)
2020: Thomas, McKinney, Peart will presumably all be starters and let’s hope 1 of them makes the pro bowl. We don’t know yet. Jury is out on the rest of the draft but perhaps we found 2 more starters in Holmes and Lemieux. Crowder - who knows
And even if you don’t agree, finding 2-3 starters a year and still only winning 4 games per year doesn’t get anybody jazzed you’re doing anything positive .
Come on man. Wake up.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
There's a ton of difference in the contracts we gave to Vernon, Jackrabbit, Snacks and resigning JPP versus what we gave to Martinez, Fackrell and Bradberry.
I can't even believe it is being compared to 2017
2019 is when the rebuild started.
Whether or not you want to realize it is up to you - as discussed I’m good with DG’s moves since 2019. 2018 was bad.
2019 is when the rebuild started.
Whether or not you want to realize it is up to you - as discussed I’m good with DG’s moves since 2019. 2018 was bad.
Pick when you want, my point still holds.
Now excuse me while I wipe away several tears of helpless laughter.
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
The biggest hope for the Giants right now is Judge, and honestly, it’s enough of overhauling the coaching staff. Judge deserves a long leash to build this.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
The Cowboys lost their starting QB mid game and still beat us, that's really not good. No matter how you slice it, that is so deflating to a team and we couldn't capitalize.
We've actually done well against Washington in this period of futility, it's not the most bold claim. I think if we were going to win most of us would have wanted to look a lot better than we did. Especially in crunch time, again, against a backup QB.
I'm sure you'd say we were "in the Rams game" pretty much regardless of how that game played out.
It's really strange to say "I'm right about everything" and include an example where you were wrong as well, while only naming 3 things. It feels like you'd be ready to say you were right about Washington too if they converted that 2 point conversion.
My comment about you being in PR wasn't even snarky really. You spin this stuff beyond the point of rational thought, I alternate being impressed and irritated when I read your posts
Sometimes I think you guys don’t hear yourselves. You say we are going to get blown out all week...and then when we don’t.....it’s like you have to realize how much of a moron you sounded like and just revert to insults against NYG and other posters.
My call has been playoff contention in 2021. But since 2021 hasn’t happened yet I’m going to sit back and see how the season plays out, call me crazy.
This coming from the same fans that always say “it doesn’t matter how you win, we’re a losing team and losers lose, winners win.”
I mean - we had half the board saying that only if Washington had gotten the 2 point, we would and should have lost. Meanwhile, us losing to the Rams and Cowboys was all our fault, not the success of the other team. It’s a joke.
You and other people here just can’t imagine that scenario, that’s fine.
Losing has really taken a toll on you guys.
This isn't a good take, it's not working out decently. Our team has tons of holes and we were in dire need of an extra 3rd down pick. There are a litany of reasons that it was at the time and still is very much a horrible trade but if you haven't accepted that by now you won't.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
Ryan - Why can't a fan tear into the bad play/decisions made by the team while they have been one of the worst teams in the league for years, and still not celebrate them when they win?
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
I think the phrase was "you just have an answer for everything".
Quiet about that trade?? The LW deal is literally mocked almost every day on this board by dozens of posters, and there is a probably one thread a week discussing what is still best to do with him.
Sentiment is now growing to trade him before the Nov deadline, particularly if Giants lose Thur night. You will see plenty of threads about who can we trade on Fri if that happens.
Funny is moreso how you have not seen them.
It is the same posters who railed against the trade now saying we have to get something in return for him, even some wanting to settle for a 3rd rounder in return.
Williams is playing very well this season, but so many are dug in on their take that giving him credit has been hard to come by - it is still a situation those posters want to move on from by getting rid of Williams.
Just because a small, vocal group makes Williams a daily topic doesn't mean that sentiment is growing to trade him. It just means that small, vocal group keeps posting about him
Some suggestions are that we trade him for whatever we can get. That's ludicrous
Some suggestions are that we trade him for whatever we can get. That's ludicrous
Ok, it just sounded like your post above was saying fans would settle for (only) a 3rd round pick...like you felt he should command much more.
Quote:
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
There's a ton of difference in the contracts we gave to Vernon, Jackrabbit, Snacks and resigning JPP versus what we gave to Martinez, Fackrell and Bradberry.
I can't even believe it is being compared to 2017
I dont know why you'd object to this. The defense is built around guys making veteran money. I'm not arguing whether the contracts are "good" or not.
We didn't give out a Vernon-like contract in the group. Or a Snacks-like contract. They are all affordable pieces.
When we signed the players in 2017, SPORTRAC had us projected as being the 29th worst team for the cap in 2021. In 2023, they have us projected as being 6th in cap room.
I agree in not trading him for the sake of trading him, and if his salary demands are exorbitant (I'm sure we have an idea of where he's at), we shouldn't sign him to justify the trade. But I'm sure we're listening if anyone is out there, and there's always the compensatory pick formula to keep in mind (with the space we have I'm sure some of our signings would offset, but it's a thought).
We didn't give out a Vernon-like contract in the group. Or a Snacks-like contract. They are all affordable pieces.
When we signed the players in 2017, SPORTRAC had us projected as being the 29th worst team for the cap in 2021. In 2023, they have us projected as being 6th in cap room.
This year, the signings were meant to plug holes and improve the D, but also improve depth somewhat. It was not about creating a top D, but just trying to fill holes around a young and thin core so we wouldn't be terrible. Both have accomplished their intended goals. This year isn't a drastic turnaround, but rather a building block with some building block players to work with. Superstars weren't added and nobody is expected to be one moving forward. But, solid guys were added with the expectation that they anchor an improving D over the next couple of years.
For example if we resign Williams for 3/45 and the first 2 years are guaranteed, similar to the Bradberry deal, I think most fans would like that.
The thrust of the post is that the defense is mainly reliant on the ability of players you brought in from outside and paid a lot to do so. You spent the money for those players but the defense is, quite frankly, middle of the pack average, and situationally very poor (read: getting off the field on third down). They'll need to spend more money on top of this OR get much more productive in the draft, which they struggle at and have plenty of offensive needs to fill, to take it to the next level.
For example if we resign Williams for 3/45 and the first 2 years are guaranteed, similar to the Bradberry deal, I think most fans would like that.
Of course, but I just wanted to use a barometer on salaries for DT/Edge currently. Looking just at DT/Edge signings from this year's FA class, what is the realm you think he's going to aim for:
Chris Jones- 4 years/$85M ($60M GTD)
Arik Armstead- 5 years/$85M ($48.5 GTD)
Dante Fowler- 3 years/$45M ($29M GTD)
Javon Hargreave- 3 years/$39M ($26M GTD)
DJ Reader- 4 years/$53M ($20.25M GTD)
There were a few other players playing out the franchise tag this year that looks like they'll go to market next year, like Yannick Ngakoue, Jadeveon Clowney, Shaquil Barrett, Bud Dupree.
As far as Williams is concerned, his good play doesn't negate the idiocy of the trade. I doubt well make any trades, which means we only have five picks next year.