I swear I remember that Tiki once said he would play one or two more seasons then retire. Then pretty much on schedule he retired. I wasn't surprised, he said he would do that.
The point is sometimes we are told what to expect but we then don't have the patience or memory to hold on to that. We have been told that Thomas would be a work in progress for a while, that he would be unlikely to have early success, that in the long run though he'd be a very good player for a long time. So guess what, that is exactly what is playing out, so just grit your teeth and ride it out without complaining.
Same with Judge / a new offense with a broken offseason / Jones / the team in general. We were not led to believe we'd have a quick turnaround, but we'd have to be patient during growing pains despite some examples of rapid change with other teams.
So basically there should be no surprises here. Disappointment yes, but it's not like we were sold a bill of goods and it wasn't delivered.
Except when it comes to the GM. He has only somewhat come through with some of his 'promises' and intentions. Not a complete failure, but not enough successes to keep going in that direction.
I agree we need new blood & new thinking. I like what we have done lately with contracts and letting some people go who sucked or let them go sooner rather than holding on too long. But that change seems to be us catching up with 'normal'.
Beyond that we need a better roster, clearly, and we need that sooner than later. That's the only thing that can ease the growing pains we were told to expect and get us back up the ladder relatively quickly.
i think judge is very aware that he has to manage the psyche of the entire team...he knows the offense is a struggle right now and i think we've already seen the defense collapse a little in frustration with the offense (the SF game). If he goes there and doesn't make it, i think he's worried the d loses steam a little bit. is it ideal? no. i think he wants to be aggressive in that spot but i think he's aware of what he has right now. this team needed a win and he was trying to do whatever he needed to do in order to get it.
then score a TD on the drive, maybe they don't need to stop a 2 point conversion to hang on by the skin of their teeth. I firmly believe coaching scared losses more games than it wins. I think history has proven that out. In a 3 point game mid third quarter, fourth and short inside the other teams 40 should be a go for every time IMO.
i'm not necessarily dug in on DG, I just think a lot of posters who automatically assume that we will start making better draft picks and better free agency signings once DG is gone, are completely and utterly clueless as to how drafting and FA works.
What did you mean posters are clueless as to how drafting and FA works? In fact, better question...how does it work?
correctly, Washington took over around their 18 yard line - if we miss a fourth and 2 at the 37 yard line and gain 20 yards on a punt with 7 minutes to go in the third may cost us the game? I'm not following that logic.
To me that's poor coaching in that instance and sends the wrong message to the team, but that's just my opinion. Usually the more aggressive teams are more successful long term.
I'm talking about the 4th-and-2 down at the goal line.
yes, a clear example of that is Crowder. Look, he ultimately might not be an answer for us, but he's sure as hell better than Downs. He was the last pick of the draft and is getting time for us already because he's shown to be better than anyone else on the roster at that position - which goes to my earlier point about Shurmur and McAdoo not doing that.
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
We also could be drafting better. Ill go as far to say we are drafting better. We are adding 3rd and 4th and 5th rounders that actually contribute now. Nearly every year under DG. Go ahead and call me out. We never even trotted out a guy like Connelly, who played well for 2 games, under Reese (post 2011) let alone a guy like Slayton. And even the guys who have flashed for barely 10 minutes like Crowder, Peart and Gates---nope not even then.
The team appears to be better coached or at least is being run with a better eye for development, and the team is drafting better than they did in the mid 2010s. We need to do a lot better than that, but it's a start.
At what point does Connelly become freaking Chuck Norris around this place. He played 5 GAMES!!!
BTW, Ever heard of a few guys named BJ Goodson and Devon Kennard?? Drafted in the 4th and 5th round. Worlds better than the chosen one!
the Washington Football Team abbreviation of WFT as What The Fuck? Doesn't matter. my Dyslexia kicked in and gave me a good laugh about the Washington Football Team. =8^D LOL!!!
posters are clueless in thinking that hiring a new GM is going to automatically mean that we hit on more draft picks and free agency signings. Posters are clueless to the fact that majority of GMs in football have the exact same percentage when it comes to this stuff. They say things like "Gettleman can't identify talent!" when in reality, he absolutely can, is proven to be able to do that, but it's coaching and good QB play that puts players over the top in the NFL. And GM's go through rough stretches. Reese had a flawed philosophy and ultimately was fired because he only relied on athleticism as a measure for football players. But - he had some good years for us from 2007-2012 which helped us win 2 SBs.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
posters are clueless in thinking that hiring a new GM is going to automatically mean that we hit on more draft picks and free agency signings. Posters are clueless to the fact that majority of GMs in football have the exact same percentage when it comes to this stuff. They say things like "Gettleman can't identify talent!" when in reality, he absolutely can, is proven to be able to do that, but it's coaching and good QB play that puts players over the top in the NFL. And GM's go through rough stretches. Reese had a flawed philosophy and ultimately was fired because he only relied on athleticism as a measure for football players. But - he had some good years for us from 2007-2012 which helped us win 2 SBs.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
This is what I believe also. Most talent is close on the mundane players. It is the ability of coaches to eke out all of those players' ability or teach how to make that ability viable.
BB, is able to squeeze orange juice from lemons. Bill Parcells knew how to motivate players. Yes as some point there needs to be superior talent in the right places. Think of Corey Webster, nothing for almost two years and then boom. Bill Walsh could script an offense for all occasions.
immensely important in deciding winners. But not sure I agree with the concept that majority of GMs have exact same % hits on drafts and free agents. Not going to list all the reasons, but for one thing not all players are created equal. A hit on a #4 pick that become an elite Left Tackle for a decade is far more important than 2nd round Safety that starts but is only a meddling player for 5 years. Both are hits but at varying degrees.
I will take a look at NE, SEA and SF drafts.
In the meanwhile please answer my earlier question...how do you think it works?
He starts Sunday. I'm not sure why this is being hailed as a credit to the coach. They flat out said it wasn't performance-based, and went right back to Thomas during the game.
I like Judge just fine, but its not something to throw roses at him for. They have been finding snaps for Peart for two weeks. Its the right thing to do if they think he can contribute.
i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
And with all due respect, posters complain we don't have a #1 receiver and a pass rush because they see that DG is not replacing the guys he decided to jettison at these position. Sometimes you have to have a re-fill strategy which actually requires extra draft picks, but we have a GM that never trades down and/or bundles up picks for his targeted players (Ogletree, Baker, LW for example).
Lastly, your last paragraph is all hope. Not excellence. Best thing Gettleman did in 2020 was bring in Bradberry and concentrate on fixing the OL in the draft that he forgot to do for the first couple years.
posters are clueless in thinking that hiring a new GM is going to automatically mean that we hit on more draft picks and free agency signings. Posters are clueless to the fact that majority of GMs in football have the exact same percentage when it comes to this stuff. They say things like "Gettleman can't identify talent!" when in reality, he absolutely can, is proven to be able to do that, but it's coaching and good QB play that puts players over the top in the NFL. And GM's go through rough stretches. Reese had a flawed philosophy and ultimately was fired because he only relied on athleticism as a measure for football players. But - he had some good years for us from 2007-2012 which helped us win 2 SBs.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
Just to be clear, the GM is responsible for using all of the devices at his disposal to build the team - draft, free agency, trades, cap management, cuts, contract negotiations, etc.
Thus, it's a helluva lot more than just draft hit %. And the key to the draft is effectively being able to maneuver around the draft to optimize value and opportunity.
So tell me - of all of those attributes what exactly has Gettleman done well to give you any hope?
Yes, coaching is important, but don't ever understate the team building process. It is critical. At the end of the day, most of these games are won before they are played based on the ability to gather and manage talent.
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
It works for now, I mean who the heck else are they paying? The hard questions are a year or two down the road. I'm most interested to see what they do at DL.
This defense isn't playoffs-good right now, and if they want to get there, they're going to have to hit for power in the draft and so far three years in, they don't do that.
Leonard Williams is probably going to get paid a long term deal. I would expect that Williams and Lawrence are both going to be here long term, and that's a lot to spend on one single position.
It becomes a problem once they have other players to pay. Nobody thinks they won't extend Barkley, so that factors in too.
And in the best case scenario with Daniel Jones, they have to pay him in 2 years as well.
your comments about free agency and what DG did this year is sort of the point that I’m getting at - some posters will just always find a way to turn a positive into a negative.
DG gets blasted here for his misses in 2018 free agency, and rightly so.
And then when it appears (so far anyway) that he had an excellent FA class in 2020...you guys go “wellllll that’s not exactly the best way to build a team now is it?”
Which brings me to my overall point, if we had fired DG in the offseason and our new GM had done exactly what DG did in 2020, this board would be over the moon with that guy.
i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
Fair?
More than fair - and based on that logic I’d say DG is doing ok.
2018: Barkley (pro bowler) Hernandez (decent starter) Carter was turning into an effective player into the injury - who knows now. Gates - looks like a possible answer at Center
2019: Jones, Lawrence, Slayton: we’ve talked about this a lot but if Jones turns into the franchise QB we all want and expect him to be, that’s a really good draft. Lawrence and Slayton have pro bowl potential (Lawrence more so)
2020: Thomas, McKinney, Peart will presumably all be starters and let’s hope 1 of them makes the pro bowl. We don’t know yet. Jury is out on the rest of the draft but perhaps we found 2 more starters in Holmes and Lemieux. Crowder - who knows
Ryan - do you think you should take into account the Giants
are a rebuilding team winning on average 4 games per year. And with that drafting starters is a bit easier since the roster stinks.
And even if you don’t agree, finding 2-3 starters a year and still only winning 4 games per year doesn’t get anybody jazzed you’re doing anything positive .
We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
There's a ton of difference in the contracts we gave to Vernon, Jackrabbit, Snacks and resigning JPP versus what we gave to Martinez, Fackrell and Bradberry.
Win one ugly ass game against an equally terrible team and there are people who will leap to praise Mr. Magoo. "Well AKSHULLY Gettleman has done pretty well!"
Now excuse me while I wipe away several tears of helpless laughter.
If Ryan doesn't already work for the Giants PR department
not trying to toot my own horn but everything I’ve said the last 3 weeks has come true. I said we’d have a chance to beat the Rams, I got laughed at. I said when we didn’t win, you guys would still complain, it happened. I said we’d beat the Cowboys, didn’t happen, but got laughed at at the notion. I said when we beat Washington, you guys would find a way to say well it doesn’t matter, that happened.
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
I remember reading the post game thread after the Giants beat Detroit in 2016 to get to 10-4. There was a lot of “we’ve found our coach” - McAdoo was very highly thought of, deservedly so. His game management was fantastic that season.
The biggest hope for the Giants right now is Judge, and honestly, it’s enough of overhauling the coaching staff. Judge deserves a long leash to build this.
you’re too smart of a guy to let your hatred of DG cloud every single response or comment you make on this board. You’re the type of guy that has been so jaded by NYG lack of winning the last 8-9 seasons that you think it’s all DG’s fault. You can’t admit that the FA class this year has been very good because nothing positive that happens is a positive for you, there’s always an excuse.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
I guess I'm in the presence of a prodigious prognosticator
do tell me oh great football soothsayer, how many wins do the Giants get to this season?
The Cowboys lost their starting QB mid game and still beat us, that's really not good. No matter how you slice it, that is so deflating to a team and we couldn't capitalize.
We've actually done well against Washington in this period of futility, it's not the most bold claim. I think if we were going to win most of us would have wanted to look a lot better than we did. Especially in crunch time, again, against a backup QB.
I'm sure you'd say we were "in the Rams game" pretty much regardless of how that game played out.
It's really strange to say "I'm right about everything" and include an example where you were wrong as well, while only naming 3 things. It feels like you'd be ready to say you were right about Washington too if they converted that 2 point conversion.
My comment about you being in PR wasn't even snarky really. You spin this stuff beyond the point of rational thought, I alternate being impressed and irritated when I read your posts
You realize that almost half of the few wins of the Gettleman era have come against the Skins, right? So this extremely unimpressive win isn't exactly a surprise.
we were winning 10-9 in the 4th quarter against the Rams on the road, how is that not being “in the game?”
Sometimes I think you guys don’t hear yourselves. You say we are going to get blown out all week...and then when we don’t.....it’s like you have to realize how much of a moron you sounded like and just revert to insults against NYG and other posters.
We won one game, and in part due to some shitty coaching by Riverboat Ron. The season isn't over because of how shitty our division is, not how great Gettleman has done.
I realize that beating Washington isn’t some great thing. All I’m asking for is some fans to admit that no matter the outcome of that game, they were going to shit on the Giants anyway.
This coming from the same fans that always say “it doesn’t matter how you win, we’re a losing team and losers lose, winners win.”
I mean - we had half the board saying that only if Washington had gotten the 2 point, we would and should have lost. Meanwhile, us losing to the Rams and Cowboys was all our fault, not the success of the other team. It’s a joke.
you aren’t reading what I’m saying. I’m not saying DG has done “great.” I said 2018 was a disaster. Shurmur was a disaster. But 2019 and on I’m good with and think it’s going to get a lot better fairly soon.
You and other people here just can’t imagine that scenario, that’s fine.
It's easy to say playoff contention and call yourself right
I’m on record at 6 wins this season. 9 wins next season would be the barometer for me, that would mean playoff contention and a possible berth. It might not be, I said playoffs or damn close for 2021, that was my take.
The game due to Rivera’s shitty coaching? That’s news to me. I read all game long that Judge was the one being too conservative and Rivera was the one making the right moves in going for everything. Funny how that changed once we won the game.
That’s fine - I don’t lose my shit when people predict 2 or 3 or 4 wins or whatever - I just have a different opinion. I also liked the Leonard Williams trade and got laughed at for that. I’m not saying it was a home run but Seems to be working out decently, funny how those posters seem to be quiet about that trade.
That’s fine - I don’t lose my shit when people predict 2 or 3 or 4 wins or whatever - I just have a different opinion. I also liked the Leonard Williams trade and got laughed at for that. I’m not saying it was a home run but Seems to be working out decently, funny how those posters seem to be quiet about that trade.
This isn't a good take, it's not working out decently. Our team has tons of holes and we were in dire need of an extra 3rd down pick. There are a litany of reasons that it was at the time and still is very much a horrible trade but if you haven't accepted that by now you won't.
you’re too smart of a guy to let your hatred of DG cloud every single response or comment you make on this board. You’re the type of guy that has been so jaded by NYG lack of winning the last 8-9 seasons that you think it’s all DG’s fault. You can’t admit that the FA class this year has been very good because nothing positive that happens is a positive for you, there’s always an excuse.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
Ryan - Why can't a fan tear into the bad play/decisions made by the team while they have been one of the worst teams in the league for years, and still not celebrate them when they win?
not trying to toot my own horn but everything I’ve said the last 3 weeks has come true. I said we’d have a chance to beat the Rams, I got laughed at. I said when we didn’t win, you guys would still complain, it happened. I said we’d beat the Cowboys, didn’t happen, but got laughed at at the notion. I said when we beat Washington, you guys would find a way to say well it doesn’t matter, that happened.
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
I think the phrase was "you just have an answer for everything".
That’s fine - I don’t lose my shit when people predict 2 or 3 or 4 wins or whatever - I just have a different opinion. I also liked the Leonard Williams trade and got laughed at for that. I’m not saying it was a home run but Seems to be working out decently, funny how those posters seem to be quiet about that trade.
Quiet about that trade?? The LW deal is literally mocked almost every day on this board by dozens of posters, and there is a probably one thread a week discussing what is still best to do with him.
Sentiment is now growing to trade him before the Nov deadline, particularly if Giants lose Thur night. You will see plenty of threads about who can we trade on Fri if that happens.
Sure it did. If the Giants had wrecked the Skins, beaten them by three TDs, dominated on both sides of the ball, I'd be saying very different things today. Nothing remotely like that happened.
think sentiment is "growing" in regards to trading Williams.
It is the same posters who railed against the trade now saying we have to get something in return for him, even some wanting to settle for a 3rd rounder in return.
Williams is playing very well this season, but so many are dug in on their take that giving him credit has been hard to come by - it is still a situation those posters want to move on from by getting rid of Williams.
Just because a small, vocal group makes Williams a daily topic doesn't mean that sentiment is growing to trade him. It just means that small, vocal group keeps posting about him
The point is sometimes we are told what to expect but we then don't have the patience or memory to hold on to that. We have been told that Thomas would be a work in progress for a while, that he would be unlikely to have early success, that in the long run though he'd be a very good player for a long time. So guess what, that is exactly what is playing out, so just grit your teeth and ride it out without complaining.
Same with Judge / a new offense with a broken offseason / Jones / the team in general. We were not led to believe we'd have a quick turnaround, but we'd have to be patient during growing pains despite some examples of rapid change with other teams.
So basically there should be no surprises here. Disappointment yes, but it's not like we were sold a bill of goods and it wasn't delivered.
Except when it comes to the GM. He has only somewhat come through with some of his 'promises' and intentions. Not a complete failure, but not enough successes to keep going in that direction.
I agree we need new blood & new thinking. I like what we have done lately with contracts and letting some people go who sucked or let them go sooner rather than holding on too long. But that change seems to be us catching up with 'normal'.
Beyond that we need a better roster, clearly, and we need that sooner than later. That's the only thing that can ease the growing pains we were told to expect and get us back up the ladder relatively quickly.
What did you mean posters are clueless as to how drafting and FA works? In fact, better question...how does it work?
To me that's poor coaching in that instance and sends the wrong message to the team, but that's just my opinion. Usually the more aggressive teams are more successful long term.
I'm talking about the 4th-and-2 down at the goal line.
Quote:
yes, a clear example of that is Crowder. Look, he ultimately might not be an answer for us, but he's sure as hell better than Downs. He was the last pick of the draft and is getting time for us already because he's shown to be better than anyone else on the roster at that position - which goes to my earlier point about Shurmur and McAdoo not doing that.
We had absolute horseshit at OT for all of those years in a row and we just kept trotting out the same guys. We had terrible linebacker play, we kept starting them.
We also could be drafting better. Ill go as far to say we are drafting better. We are adding 3rd and 4th and 5th rounders that actually contribute now. Nearly every year under DG. Go ahead and call me out. We never even trotted out a guy like Connelly, who played well for 2 games, under Reese (post 2011) let alone a guy like Slayton. And even the guys who have flashed for barely 10 minutes like Crowder, Peart and Gates---nope not even then.
The team appears to be better coached or at least is being run with a better eye for development, and the team is drafting better than they did in the mid 2010s. We need to do a lot better than that, but it's a start.
At what point does Connelly become freaking Chuck Norris around this place. He played 5 GAMES!!!
BTW, Ever heard of a few guys named BJ Goodson and Devon Kennard?? Drafted in the 4th and 5th round. Worlds better than the chosen one!
Go Giants!!!
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
This is what I believe also. Most talent is close on the mundane players. It is the ability of coaches to eke out all of those players' ability or teach how to make that ability viable.
BB, is able to squeeze orange juice from lemons. Bill Parcells knew how to motivate players. Yes as some point there needs to be superior talent in the right places. Think of Corey Webster, nothing for almost two years and then boom. Bill Walsh could script an offense for all occasions.
I will take a look at NE, SEA and SF drafts.
In the meanwhile please answer my earlier question...how do you think it works?
I like Judge just fine, but its not something to throw roses at him for. They have been finding snaps for Peart for two weeks. Its the right thing to do if they think he can contribute.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
And with all due respect, posters complain we don't have a #1 receiver and a pass rush because they see that DG is not replacing the guys he decided to jettison at these position. Sometimes you have to have a re-fill strategy which actually requires extra draft picks, but we have a GM that never trades down and/or bundles up picks for his targeted players (Ogletree, Baker, LW for example).
Lastly, your last paragraph is all hope. Not excellence. Best thing Gettleman did in 2020 was bring in Bradberry and concentrate on fixing the OL in the draft that he forgot to do for the first couple years.
Fair?
Go look at the Patriots drafts since 2013 and tell me - which draft was good? Which of the 49ers drafts have been home runs? Which of Seattle's drafts have been awesome? Pretty much none of them.
Get the right coach, get the right QB, build around them. Unless you are completely ad utterly terrible at drafting players, which is hard to do just based on the amount of players that are picked, that's how it is done.
Just to be clear, the GM is responsible for using all of the devices at his disposal to build the team - draft, free agency, trades, cap management, cuts, contract negotiations, etc.
Thus, it's a helluva lot more than just draft hit %. And the key to the draft is effectively being able to maneuver around the draft to optimize value and opportunity.
So tell me - of all of those attributes what exactly has Gettleman done well to give you any hope?
Yes, coaching is important, but don't ever understate the team building process. It is critical. At the end of the day, most of these games are won before they are played based on the ability to gather and manage talent.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
It felt like we were headed for a defensive-minded game with points being at a premium.
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We should be honest about it. The defense is better this year almost entirely because of large-contract free agents. That's okay. But it's also not a great way to build a team.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
Fair points. But if you can make some splashes in free agency, have it work under your cap and not have ridiculous level rebuilds every few years...I am ok with it.
It works for now, I mean who the heck else are they paying? The hard questions are a year or two down the road. I'm most interested to see what they do at DL.
This defense isn't playoffs-good right now, and if they want to get there, they're going to have to hit for power in the draft and so far three years in, they don't do that.
Leonard Williams is probably going to get paid a long term deal. I would expect that Williams and Lawrence are both going to be here long term, and that's a lot to spend on one single position.
It becomes a problem once they have other players to pay. Nobody thinks they won't extend Barkley, so that factors in too.
And in the best case scenario with Daniel Jones, they have to pay him in 2 years as well.
DG gets blasted here for his misses in 2018 free agency, and rightly so.
And then when it appears (so far anyway) that he had an excellent FA class in 2020...you guys go “wellllll that’s not exactly the best way to build a team now is it?”
Which brings me to my overall point, if we had fired DG in the offseason and our new GM had done exactly what DG did in 2020, this board would be over the moon with that guy.
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i do agree with you there, taking a guy at 4 that becomes a decade pro bowler, is way way more important than finding some glue guys in the mid rounds. I guess my point is - majority of GMs seem to have the same percentage in finding the pro bowlers or hall of famers, it's the ones that can successfully build AROUND those type of players, that get all the credit for being good GMs.
And to answer your question of "how it works" i think this is how it works: find a franchise QB, protect said QB, and get good football players and good coaches around those players. I think a lot of posters here just think that every player we pick in rounds 1-3 should end up being a pro bowler. If you swing for the fences every time (like Reese did) you end up getting a lot of shitty talent. Posters complain that we don't have a pass rush or a #1 receiver think those players grow on trees.
I for one think what DG did in 2020 was excellent. They think they found their coach, they think they found their QB (jury is out obviously, but they are going to let him develop) and now, time to go to work with the pieces around the foundation, such as OL which they did. We still have premier spots to fill at WR and Edge, but there's time to do it.
Ryan - I don't think you have a good pulse of posters' expectation here at all if you think BBI expects 3 pro bowlers per year coming out of each draft. In fact, that's an absurd statement which I assume you will retract. I think BBI expects to find no more than 2-3 starters out of each draft, one who eventually reaches the pro bowl-like status. Particularly if you are picking in the top 6 each year!
Fair?
More than fair - and based on that logic I’d say DG is doing ok.
2018: Barkley (pro bowler) Hernandez (decent starter) Carter was turning into an effective player into the injury - who knows now. Gates - looks like a possible answer at Center
2019: Jones, Lawrence, Slayton: we’ve talked about this a lot but if Jones turns into the franchise QB we all want and expect him to be, that’s a really good draft. Lawrence and Slayton have pro bowl potential (Lawrence more so)
2020: Thomas, McKinney, Peart will presumably all be starters and let’s hope 1 of them makes the pro bowl. We don’t know yet. Jury is out on the rest of the draft but perhaps we found 2 more starters in Holmes and Lemieux. Crowder - who knows
And even if you don’t agree, finding 2-3 starters a year and still only winning 4 games per year doesn’t get anybody jazzed you’re doing anything positive .
Come on man. Wake up.
They did this before in 2017, a top 10 defense because of big spending on free agents. And it worked for one year. They made the playoffs. Then it collapsed due to lack of roster depth, an offense that didn't help the team whatsoever, coaching, and injuries.
Free Agency has to be apart of any GM's arsenal, but just be careful handing out plaudits when it's free agents that are the main reason your team is good.
There's a ton of difference in the contracts we gave to Vernon, Jackrabbit, Snacks and resigning JPP versus what we gave to Martinez, Fackrell and Bradberry.
I can't even believe it is being compared to 2017
2019 is when the rebuild started.
Whether or not you want to realize it is up to you - as discussed I’m good with DG’s moves since 2019. 2018 was bad.
2019 is when the rebuild started.
Whether or not you want to realize it is up to you - as discussed I’m good with DG’s moves since 2019. 2018 was bad.
Pick when you want, my point still holds.
Now excuse me while I wipe away several tears of helpless laughter.
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
The biggest hope for the Giants right now is Judge, and honestly, it’s enough of overhauling the coaching staff. Judge deserves a long leash to build this.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
The Cowboys lost their starting QB mid game and still beat us, that's really not good. No matter how you slice it, that is so deflating to a team and we couldn't capitalize.
We've actually done well against Washington in this period of futility, it's not the most bold claim. I think if we were going to win most of us would have wanted to look a lot better than we did. Especially in crunch time, again, against a backup QB.
I'm sure you'd say we were "in the Rams game" pretty much regardless of how that game played out.
It's really strange to say "I'm right about everything" and include an example where you were wrong as well, while only naming 3 things. It feels like you'd be ready to say you were right about Washington too if they converted that 2 point conversion.
My comment about you being in PR wasn't even snarky really. You spin this stuff beyond the point of rational thought, I alternate being impressed and irritated when I read your posts
Sometimes I think you guys don’t hear yourselves. You say we are going to get blown out all week...and then when we don’t.....it’s like you have to realize how much of a moron you sounded like and just revert to insults against NYG and other posters.
My call has been playoff contention in 2021. But since 2021 hasn’t happened yet I’m going to sit back and see how the season plays out, call me crazy.
This coming from the same fans that always say “it doesn’t matter how you win, we’re a losing team and losers lose, winners win.”
I mean - we had half the board saying that only if Washington had gotten the 2 point, we would and should have lost. Meanwhile, us losing to the Rams and Cowboys was all our fault, not the success of the other team. It’s a joke.
You and other people here just can’t imagine that scenario, that’s fine.
Losing has really taken a toll on you guys.
This isn't a good take, it's not working out decently. Our team has tons of holes and we were in dire need of an extra 3rd down pick. There are a litany of reasons that it was at the time and still is very much a horrible trade but if you haven't accepted that by now you won't.
At least I can admit the shit I disagree with DG on or the bad moves he made. When we start winning again you’ll be the first one in line to celebrate the team and forget you spent 2 years trashing the org every day.
Ryan - Why can't a fan tear into the bad play/decisions made by the team while they have been one of the worst teams in the league for years, and still not celebrate them when they win?
I said 2018 was bad. I’ve also said I agree with the moves since 2019. For some reason, you guys fee the need to respond to me every time I say the same thing. I think we found our coach, I think we found our QB. You guys can’t help yourselves every 2 seconds and can’t just be patient watching the team settle in to the season. I said we’d win 6 games this year, got laughed at. Looking at the schedule and the division, it’s certainly not out of the question if we improve.
Last I checked, we have a shot at the division this year. Yeah, the division sucks, it is what it is. Some of us actually like where the team is headed and want to watch the team compete hard and win games. Others who have a bullshit snarky response to anything positive will just never be happy until the Giants win the SB again, that’s fine. This shit takes time.
I think the phrase was "you just have an answer for everything".
Quiet about that trade?? The LW deal is literally mocked almost every day on this board by dozens of posters, and there is a probably one thread a week discussing what is still best to do with him.
Sentiment is now growing to trade him before the Nov deadline, particularly if Giants lose Thur night. You will see plenty of threads about who can we trade on Fri if that happens.
Funny is moreso how you have not seen them.
It is the same posters who railed against the trade now saying we have to get something in return for him, even some wanting to settle for a 3rd rounder in return.
Williams is playing very well this season, but so many are dug in on their take that giving him credit has been hard to come by - it is still a situation those posters want to move on from by getting rid of Williams.
Just because a small, vocal group makes Williams a daily topic doesn't mean that sentiment is growing to trade him. It just means that small, vocal group keeps posting about him