Would you re-sign BOTH Dalvin Tomlinson and Leonard Williams

and I can only pick one. Give me Williams. He seems to make more plays. I would love to keep both if possible but neither are game breakers and we already have Big Dex and BJ Hill so it wouldn’t be a huge loss.

Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. Build a complete DLine that can actually pressure the QB.

Hate to see that on a team other than big blue.

They committed resources to Williams already. See how the season plays out. If he continues to be a force, work out the extension.

We have needs at spots other than DL right now. No reason to make a hole on the team when there's no one else worth extending.

In comment 15016596 GMen72 said:

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Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. Build a complete DLine that can actually pressure the QB.

Can you name a good ER in free agency we should target?

how is a WR that has only hit 1000 receiving yards twice in 6 years considered a stud?

This team for too long has been filling needs without ever building a strength. Not taking into cap implications, I would not be opposed to going all in on the defensive line and finally building an identity again.

without knowing what those costs are.

In theory I suspect it's doable though. For example here's the Steelers current front 7 by AAV:

Heyward - $16.5m (just resigned for 4 years)
Tuitt - $12m (signed a 5 year extension during his rookie deal)
Dupree - $15.8m (franchise tag)
Watt - rookie deal (huge extension coming in the near future)
Bush - rookie deal
Williams - 6.2m
Alualu - 2.8m (was a cheaper replacement for Hargrave)

So it's possible depending on where you are prioritizing your cap # even if your QB is expensive. The Steelers have obviously been a front 7 heavy team for a long time.

NE tends to spend more in the secondary than on the front 7, so in a lot of ways it will depend on the team building style Judge prefers and the relative costs of each player.

the Ravens are a blend of both models with heavy investments in the DL (Campbell, Williams, Wolfe) and DB's (Peters, Humphrey, Smith, Clark) but less so at the LB level where they've gone more plug and play (they let Mosely and Zadarius walk).

In comment 15016600 outeiroj said:

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how is a WR that has only hit 1000 receiving yards twice in 6 years considered a stud?

Compared to Golden Tate he’s a stud. We had a stud but well. You know.

In comment 15016600 outeiroj said:

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how is a WR that has only hit 1000 receiving yards twice in 6 years considered a stud?

He does average 1000 yards per season.

idk that I would target him. Oft injured is why he doesn't have 1000 yard seasons...

doesn't mean we should spend it on whoever our best players are. Asset allocation is paramount. And you can rebuild a team by rolling over money and playing with incentives.

Any of these last 3 seasons would have been a good time to do this and set ourselves up in great cap shape but we've declined that.

That's the biggest crime. If you are going to be as bad as we are you should really be sitting in stellar cap shape at least.

Nothing wrong with being thrifty with resources until you have talent at premium positions that you can lock up together as well as look to add key pieces around at good prices.

The LW deal is a stain on this franchise and it's competence. If they pay him $18-$20M a year and let go of Tomlinson at $12-$14 M that stain will be bigger. But you can't really pay $30-$34 either. They aren't really in a good situation here.

They should really trade LW yesterday...

In comment 15016598 adamg said:

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In comment 15016596 GMen72 said: Quote: Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. Build a complete DLine that can actually pressure the QB. Can you name a good ER in free agency we should target?

Bud Dupree?

In comment 15016609 NoGainDayne said:

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doesn't mean we should spend it on whoever our best players are. Asset allocation is paramount. And you can rebuild a team by rolling over money and playing with incentives. Any of these last 3 seasons would have been a good time to do this and set ourselves up in great cap shape but we've declined that. That's the biggest crime. If you are going to be as bad as we are you should really be sitting in stellar cap shape at least. Nothing wrong with being thrifty with resources until you have talent at premium positions that you can lock up together as well as look to add key pieces around at good prices. The LW deal is a stain on this franchise and it's competence. If they pay him $18-$20M a year and let go of Tomlinson at $12-$14 M that stain will be bigger. But you can't really pay $30-$34 either. They aren't really in a good situation here. They should really trade LW yesterday...

Your last point is key. I'd see what the market becomes for Williams by the trade deadline. He might be moveable then.

I do think Tomlinson is Linval Joseph 2.0. I would extend him.

In comment 15016610 chopperhatch said:

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In comment 15016598 adamg said: Quote: In comment 15016596 GMen72 said: Quote: Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. Build a complete DLine that can actually pressure the QB. Can you name a good ER in free agency we should target? Bud Dupree?

He's pretty much it though, no? The market isn't great. Is he likely to leave Pitt?

.

In comment 15016610 chopperhatch said:

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In comment 15016598 adamg said: Quote: In comment 15016596 GMen72 said: Quote: Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. Build a complete DLine that can actually pressure the QB. Can you name a good ER in free agency we should target? Bud Dupree?

Dupree won’t hit the market because Pitt is smart. They’ll do what they’ve always done and let guys like JuJu walk.

That’s the rub with just hoping options will be there in FA. Teams understand the value of ER’s. They just aren’t going to let quality ones walk.

Williams/Tomlinson aren’t elite players but they’re good. Paying for good players isn’t a bad option even if the value isn’t perfect. What’s worse is letting good players walk to win a salary cap award with nothing behind or using that money on FA’s who don’t really move the team forward.

The goals next off-season should be to make sure the QB position is settled (Jones or a draft pick), solidify the OL, and finish the DL by adding quality ERs. If that means toughing it out another year at WR or CB then so be it. Those positions are much easier to fill in FA.

Because in the long run, stud DL covers a lot of warts. Not much market for EDGE this year and as of right now, I cant see us offering a back breaking contract to Saquon... it just doeant make sense. The true core players we have right now are on the D line. Might as well keep that group together.

LW is certainly the better player....very underated in pass defense. The Giants get an outside monster edge....LW will shine.

Tomilinson is easier to replace but homegrown. We might have his replacement already on roster.

take Tomlinson with a slight edge if we can only have one.

In comment 15016600 outeiroj said:

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how is a WR that has only hit 1000 receiving yards twice in 6 years considered a stud?

He’s often injured but we aren’t talking fantasy football. When he’s on the field he’s a stud. Did you see him vs giants? Grabbing 3rd down after 3rd down in traffic. Terrible throws by trusbiky and he’s snatching them like it’s nothing. When he’s on the field he’s a true 1. Like Shepard, great when they play, but often injured. I would not pay big bucks to guys like that.

We are in no position to just let good players walk out the door.

In comment 15016609 NoGainDayne said:

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doesn't mean we should spend it on whoever our best players are. Asset allocation is paramount. And you can rebuild a team by rolling over money

Save the resources for what? Another pricy and risky vet FA signing? So many of those don’t work out. Resigning both Williams and Tomlinson is the SAFE decision. Redeploying the cap space towards a future signing may very well lead to another useless big ticket signing, which happens to all GMs.

I think this line if reasoning - letting the capable players you have leave and hope to get better ones instead - is one of the reasons this team has stunk for a decade. Remember Linval Joseph?

I have a simpler idea for building the team: when you have a player who is performing in the system, you KEEP them on the team.

(Please avoid extreme situations. I agree that DG should not have matched the Washington offer for Landon Collins.)

He will be cheaper and is better at his position than LW is at his.
I would re-sign LW if there is plenty of money left after some releases. But I doubt he signs for less than AAV $16mill and in my mind he is not worth that much.

In comment 15016610 chopperhatch said:

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In comment 15016598 adamg said: Quote: In comment 15016596 GMen72 said: Quote: Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. Build a complete DLine that can actually pressure the QB. Can you name a good ER in free agency we should target? Bud Dupree?

Jadeveon Clowney is the exact same player as LW. Disruptive when he wants to be but doesn't put up overly impressive stats. Not to mention, he'd probably be cheaper than LW and be better than anything the Giants have now at either DE. Unless JC has a great 2nd half, he can prove signed for 13-14 mil per year...that's a better deal than LW at 4 mil more.

We need to add talent not subtract it. At least we have a competitive DL. Without Tomlinson what have we got and who is going to replace him. This is a unit to build around not trade off talent her for talent elsewhere.

and Williams are completely different players. Williams can and has played inside and serves mainly as a space eater and run defender. Clowney is a pass rusher and plays on the edge

I'll tell you one thing - Blake Martinez sure wants to see Tomlinson and Williams resigned.

In comment 15016596 GMen72 said:

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Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden.

those grow on trees.... yeah we should get 2-3 of them this off season. Cheap too

I was looking at the feasibility of cutting players - one of them Zeitler - OTC has Zeitler at $14.5 mill with $12 mill salary and $2.5 mill prorated bonus. Why would the Giants be responsible for the pro-rated bonus? The Browns already paid that. Just like the Browns were not responsible for Beckham's signing bonus - the Giants ate that.
Isn't that a mistake by OTC? Shouldn't cutting Zeitler be free?

Good lineman don’t come around every day. Sure let the strength of our team just walk.

I feel that Tomlinson is undervalued on this site. Williams seems very happy right now and is producing results.
Why start all over on the DL. Get the ER and these guys will be even more productive.

Signing both does not hurt the Giants and does not keep them from adding to this team.

Williams versatile across the defensive line and has been very good thisnyear, you may not see it in stats but he has been very valuable...

Having 3 mammoth Dlineman help Martinez tremendously keeping the blocks off of him and letting him fill the hole

In comment 15016616 Greg from LI said:

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Yup. Cheaper and just as productive. I’d look to deal Williams at the deadline as other posters have mentioned.

you take Williams but cap wise you take Tomlison. They have a lot of needs to fill and i think the difference between the two isn't worth what Williams will get and what DT will get. I was looking at cap numbers yesterday and think that Zeitler is gone unless they can't find a decent replacement and Solder stays because his dead money($10m according to Over the Cap) is just too much next year. Maybe they move him inside? I think Tate is gone as well. What are they going to do about Peppers. I know a lot of people on here are all for dumping him but who do you get to replace him? I expect there to be some turnover in the secondary (How do they justify keeping Beal, Ryan isn't signed Ballentine is meh and love is worse and the rest seem like fodder). They'll need an Edge, Safety, LB(Fackrell isn't signed) WR, RB, TE and OL(again), not to mention a backup (or starting) QB.

That 2.5 Million is not his Brown's signing bonus. We restructured Zeitler's contract after trading for him.

As to the OP's question, hell yes you sign them both if you can reasonably; letting good players go in the hopes of getting great ones is the road to 18 years of lousy football.

In comment 15016685 EricJ said:

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In comment 15016596 GMen72 said: Quote: Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. those grow on trees.... yeah we should get 2-3 of them this off season. Cheap too

Was thinking the same thing....we don't have any now because we didn't hit the super market.

In comment 15016701 WillieYoung said:

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That 2.5 Million is not his Brown's signing bonus. We restructured Zeitler's contract after trading for him.

Thanks...

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Jadeveon Clowney is the exact same player as LW. Disruptive when he wants to be but doesn't put up overly impressive stats. Not to mention, he'd probably be cheaper than LW and be better than anything the Giants have now at either DE. Unless JC has a great 2nd half, he can prove signed for 13-14 mil per year...that's a better deal than LW at 4 mil more.

Clowney and LW are the "exact same player"? Have you seen either of them? How are they at all similar?

That's why cutting him will incur a $2.5M hit. That is very manageable.

is also manageable at $4.7M. I am no fan of Gettleman's but I do like how he has avoided loading up the team with future cap liabilities the last couple of years (2018 is a different matter). We are in good shape.

Btw, this is looking farther into the future, but Saquon's rookie contract is so expensive that resigning him to a long-term contract at market HB rates (say Ezekiel Elliott) will only have a marginal negative impact on our cap. The downside of this of course is that we've been incurring an unusually large cap allocation for a rookie HB contract in his first three seasons. But keeping him on the team for the long term won't be a major cap event given our current baseline.

has spent most of the past decade as a plus player for the Vikings.

We have a QB on a rookie contract. Now is not the time to let one of our best players walk.

We need to start building a core of players. This team was good when we had a dominant d line. Focus on edge rushers in the off season to pair with LW/DL/DT.

In comment 15016616 Greg from LI said:

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I agree with Greg, Re-sign Tomlinson and Austin Johnson and then draft another DL in rounds 3-4.

I hope the Giants trade Leonard Williams before the trade deadline unless they win Thursday and are still in the playoff hunt.

In comment 15016714 cosmicj said:

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That's why cutting him will incur a $2.5M hit. That is very manageable.

Zeitler, Solder, and Tate will more than likely be cut this offseason and rightfully so.

In comment 15016643 chopperhatch said:

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Because in the long run, stud DL covers a lot of warts. Not much market for EDGE this year and as of right now, I cant see us offering a back breaking contract to Saquon... it just doeant make sense. The true core players we have right now are on the D line. Might as well keep that group together.

They will only get better the more they play together. I agree keep them if possible. Otherwise we end up using a draft spot to backfill. If we can re-sign we can use the spot for another position.

In comment 15016674 GMen72 said:

Quote:

In comment 15016610 chopperhatch said: Quote: In comment 15016598 adamg said: Quote: In comment 15016596 GMen72 said: Quote: Invest in 2-3 edge rushers not named Golden. Build a complete DLine that can actually pressure the QB. Can you name a good ER in free agency we should target? Bud Dupree? Jadeveon Clowney is the exact same player as LW. Disruptive when he wants to be but doesn't put up overly impressive stats. Not to mention, he'd probably be cheaper than LW and be better than anything the Giants have now at either DE. Unless JC has a great 2nd half, he can prove signed for 13-14 mil per year...that's a better deal than LW at 4 mil more.

This is so inaccurate. You're comparing apples and oranges. Williams is a dirty work DT/DE who can pressure the QB at a high rate FOR THAT POSITION. HE's also very good against the run. He's a very good player no matter what the number crunchers here say. So is Thomlinson.

If you compare Williams to true edge players of course he's going to fall short in the flashy impact play department. Why not compare a fucking tackle to a WR while you're at it.

In comment 15016765 Jay on the Island said:

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In comment 15016714 cosmicj said: Quote: That's why cutting him will incur a $2.5M hit. That is very manageable. Zeitler, Solder, and Tate will more than likely be cut this offseason and rightfully so.

I have a feeling that one of Solder or Zeitler are kept and Zeitler is the better of the two. Unless Lemieux gets in there and wows them, Zeitler will stay, I think. If Thomas and Peart keep developing. Solder is gone.

Agree on Tate.

In comment 15016760 Jay on the Island said:

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In comment 15016616 Greg from LI said: Quote: . I agree with Greg, Re-sign Tomlinson and Austin Johnson and then draft another DL in rounds 3-4. I hope the Giants trade Leonard Williams before the trade deadline unless they win Thursday and are still in the playoff hunt.

Why not keep the line in tact, who have been playing together and improving as a unit? Use that 3-4 round pick on another position of need? It may cost them but Williams/Tomlinson/Lawrence will only be getting better together. Bringing in another guy from the 3rd/4th round certainly means a year of learning Graham's system...this sets them back up front?

I think you have to understand how the 3-4 defense works to really appreciate how good Williams is. Otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy comparing him to players like Clowney.

Clowney's role looks more like Golden or Carter i'd say.

In comment 15016787 Doug in MA said:

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I think you have to understand how the 3-4 defense works to really appreciate how good Williams is. Otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy comparing him to players like Clowney. Clowney's role looks more like Golden or Carter i'd say.

That was always Clowney's role. He is an OLB/ER in a 3-4 or a DE in a 4-3..

LW is a 3-4 DE of a DT 4-3. The 3-4 DE is really a DT anyway.

Tomlinson if not traded these guys are just fools. Williams can’t be traded since we way overpriced him but if they even discuss bringing him back next season well it’s just stupidity.