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Patrick Graham

NewBlue : 10/23/2020 10:21 am
I know he has little talent to work with (Though that is a bit overstated)
But as I said in a thread last night.

Dallas last possession....TD
redskins last possession...TD
Philly...final 2 possessions TD

What kind of coaching is that?
Penalty's, blown assignments, miscommunication, flat out beat man on man

I have seen this movie far too often in the last 8-10 years
The names change and the results are always the same.

When will this end?
The defense was gassed  
nygiants16 : 10/23/2020 10:25 am : link
and a player being beat 1 on 1 how is that on the defensice coordinator? sometimes the player has to make a play..


There is only so mucb a coorsinator can do,if the talent is not there then it is not going to work, he tried to go zone to hide some of hia secondary, but eventually he had to go man..


And Dallas didnt score a td on their last drive, it was a field goal..
Outside of Bradbury, his DB's stink.  
Section331 : 10/23/2020 10:27 am : link
Logan Ryan is a 4th corner on a good team, and he is arguably our 2nd. He has no ER's, so he has to manufacture a pass rush. His safeties stink, LB's are fair, the only good unit is the interior DL.

The late game TD's are frustrating, but this defense is FAR better than last year. My thought after last night was don't get to used to Graham as DC, he may be a HC soon.
There isn't much talent on defense  
Jay on the Island : 10/23/2020 10:31 am : link
Not to mention they lost Baker, Beal, McKinney, Carter, Ximines, and Crowder on defense.
lastnight wasn't on Graham  
Gordo : 10/23/2020 10:32 am : link
This team doesn't have the killer instinct it needs to finish games. Look how many mental mistakes and penalties they had the last 5 mins. Everything swung philly's way when BJ Hill's sack was called back. The Defense didn't step on the throat of Philly. It wasn't Graham, it was the players thinking they had the game won. Graham had them in a position to win.

It comes from years of losing, and not having leaders on the team knowing how to finish. Graham is the right guy, just need to get him some weapons on defense.
Graham's done his job  
Biteymax22 : 10/23/2020 10:32 am : link
I'd make the argument that he's the only reason we were even in those close game situations to begin with.
I see a huge difference  
SLIM_ : 10/23/2020 10:33 am : link
between this defense and the last 2 years defense both in results, effort and scheme.

A lot of these defensive backs were late camp additions and for the most part they are playing the schemes well.

There is a lot about injuries to other teams but there has been a lot of games missed by our starters.

You can arguably say that here are our starters that missed last night... OLB - Carter and Ximines. LB - Crowder S - McKinney (and then Colbert) CB - Holmes.

I'd really like to get McKinney (and Crowder) back this year to see what we have.
I'm pretty sure Graham did not call  
Mike from Ohio : 10/23/2020 10:34 am : link
on Lewis to commit defensive holding on a one play, and then to lose his man in coverage deep down the field on the next play. Those aren't scheme/call issues, that is a bad player making bad plays.
Young  
Toth029 : 10/23/2020 10:37 am : link
Guys making critical errors like Lewis and Harper. No pass rush from the edge to get a hurry or contain. Best rusher is Leo.
RE: I'm pretty sure Graham did not call  
Jay on the Island : 10/23/2020 10:38 am : link
In comment 15021629 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
on Lewis to commit defensive holding on a one play, and then to lose his man in coverage deep down the field on the next play. Those aren't scheme/call issues, that is a bad player making bad plays.

Lewis did the same thing versus Dallas. He lost the ball in the air and fell down.
Yeah...  
dschwarz in westchester : 10/23/2020 10:41 am : link
I don't know how anyone can not love Graham right now.

The Giants spend almost all of their resources on Offense and leave the defense just scraps. The defense is super young, has tons of turnover this year, has substantial injury issues, and no one who can really rush the QB and he's still got them to play as an above average Unit with an offense that can't sustain drives and turns the ball over a ton.

Yes, the Defense isn't 'elite'; but given what he's got to work with, he's been fantastic. If the Offense was nearly as productive the Giants would be well on their way to the playoffs.
RE: Outside of Bradbury, his DB's stink.  
HomerJones45 : 10/23/2020 10:44 am : link
In comment 15021613 Section331 said:
Quote:
Logan Ryan is a 4th corner on a good team, and he is arguably our 2nd. He has no ER's, so he has to manufacture a pass rush. His safeties stink, LB's are fair, the only good unit is the interior DL.

The late game TD's are frustrating, but this defense is FAR better than last year. My thought after last night was don't get to used to Graham as DC, he may be a HC soon.
It should be. We have the 9th highest paid DE in the League, the 7th highest paid corner, the 10th highest paid inside lb, Ryan is the 37th highest paid corner (which sounds ok until you think there are 32 teams and 96 corners and slot corners who play on a regular basis), a first rounder DT and a first rounder safety playing.

It seems Graham is getting credit for improving a defense that had a large cash infusion for FA in the offseason. I don't know that Graham, who was shown the door in Miami, is headed for a head coaching spot anytime soon.
RE: RE: I'm pretty sure Graham did not call  
Biteymax22 : 10/23/2020 10:45 am : link
In comment 15021635 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 15021629 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


on Lewis to commit defensive holding on a one play, and then to lose his man in coverage deep down the field on the next play. Those aren't scheme/call issues, that is a bad player making bad plays.


Lewis did the same thing versus Dallas. He lost the ball in the air and fell down.


Lewis is an undrafted free agent on his 8th team. He's our number 2 corner and our defense is still respectable. That says a lot about Graham in itself.
Aikman made the point last night  
Mike from Ohio : 10/23/2020 10:45 am : link
that Graham typically prefers to play more man coverage than zone, but is playing much more zone with the Giants. That isn't because he woke up and decided zone was more effective. It's because they don't have the secondary to line up in man and win more times than not. Bradberry is playing well. After that?

You have to scheme for what you have, and right now that means playing coverage that best matches poor personnel. If Lewis is a liability in coverage (and he is) teams will scheme to go after him. With little to no pass rush you can only scheme around a bad secondary so much.
RE: RE: RE: I'm pretty sure Graham did not call  
Jay on the Island : 10/23/2020 10:50 am : link
In comment 15021660 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 15021635 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 15021629 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


on Lewis to commit defensive holding on a one play, and then to lose his man in coverage deep down the field on the next play. Those aren't scheme/call issues, that is a bad player making bad plays.


Lewis did the same thing versus Dallas. He lost the ball in the air and fell down.



Lewis is an undrafted free agent on his 8th team. He's our number 2 corner and our defense is still respectable. That says a lot about Graham in itself.

I agree, he's kept the defense respectable with PS caliber players starting at premium positions.
It’s happened with every DC  
jeff57 : 10/23/2020 10:50 am : link
The last 4 years.
He's a really good coordinator  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 10/23/2020 10:51 am : link
The talent level is not where it needs to be in the back end. Losing Xavier McKinney and Darnay Holmes has put guys on the field who shouldn't be there. A really thin unit got thinner.
RE: The defense was gassed  
jeff57 : 10/23/2020 10:52 am : link
In comment 15021609 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
and a player being beat 1 on 1 how is that on the defensice coordinator? sometimes the player has to make a play..


There is only so mucb a coorsinator can do,if the talent is not there then it is not going to work, he tried to go zone to hide some of hia secondary, but eventually he had to go man..


And Dallas didnt score a td on their last drive, it was a field goal..


They were gassed on the next to last drive when the offense had held the ball how long?
RE: RE: RE: I'm pretty sure Graham did not call  
JB_in_DC : 10/23/2020 10:53 am : link
In comment 15021660 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 15021635 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 15021629 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


on Lewis to commit defensive holding on a one play, and then to lose his man in coverage deep down the field on the next play. Those aren't scheme/call issues, that is a bad player making bad plays.


Lewis did the same thing versus Dallas. He lost the ball in the air and fell down.



Lewis is an undrafted free agent on his 8th team. He's our number 2 corner and our defense is still respectable. That says a lot about Graham in itself.


The team is playing multiple practice squad guys in the secondary during crunch time - Madre Harper, Ryan Lewis - and those are the guys making the critical mistakes that lost the game.
needs a pass rusher or two  
bc4life : 10/23/2020 10:53 am : link
but could possibly have survived that had he not lost 3 starters in secondary
Mother Harper needs to go  
jeff57 : 10/23/2020 10:55 am : link
.
RE: RE: Outside of Bradbury, his DB's stink.  
Section331 : 10/23/2020 10:58 am : link
In comment 15021653 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:


It should be. We have the 9th highest paid DE in the League, the 7th highest paid corner, the 10th highest paid inside lb, Ryan is the 37th highest paid corner (which sounds ok until you think there are 32 teams and 96 corners and slot corners who play on a regular basis), a first rounder DT and a first rounder safety playing.

It seems Graham is getting credit for improving a defense that had a large cash infusion for FA in the offseason. I don't know that Graham, who was shown the door in Miami, is headed for a head coaching spot anytime soon.


I don't care what they're getting paid, that is not on Graham. I stand by what I said, Bradbury is the only DB worthwhile, Logan Ryan is a good rotational CB, but shouldn't be playing outside on every down. He has no pass rushers, so has to create pressure from blitz schemes. The personnel is little better than last year, but with much better results.
Mckinney coming back will help the secondary  
nygiants16 : 10/23/2020 10:59 am : link
gices them more flexibility with guys like love and ryan..
I agree that Graham has some talent to work with  
cosmicj : 10/23/2020 11:00 am : link
although he is handcuffed by certain personnel weaknesses. But if you don't see how the players are playing their assignments and trying hard, you need to start looking at the situation from a different lense.
I dunno, the fact Graham has a top 15 defense  
Ben in Tampa : 10/23/2020 11:40 am : link
with the talent he has, is impressive to me.

Hes got no elite players. Bradberry, Martinez, Lawrence, Tomlinson and Williams are good-to-very-good players. Everybody else? ehhhhhh
Hopefully Mckinney  
5BowlsSoon : 10/23/2020 11:50 am : link
Will plug a hole...Crowder returns, plug another....too bad Baker and or Beal wasn’t there to plug up a third hole.
Every team in the league  
NewBlue : 10/23/2020 11:55 am : link
Is missing top talent....Boston Scott beat Peppers?
Hightower beat Lewis...the Philly OL except their center was getting abused all year......The 49ers were playing their C squad........Andy Dalton ran up the field with under a minute......Kyle Allen led that drive with 2 minutes.......

We seem to play improved defense until it's time to win
We have  
NewBlue : 10/23/2020 11:58 am : link
3/4 DL that most teams would love to have...Fackrell, Martinez are above average LB's...The secondary has Peppers....Bradberry....Logan Ryan....and some young talent.....I don't know how terrible our talent is on D.......
RE: Hopefully Mckinney  
JB_in_DC : 10/23/2020 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15021848 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
Will plug a hole...Crowder returns, plug another....too bad Baker and or Beal wasn’t there to plug up a third hole.


Getting Darnay Holmes and Colbert back will help too. Ebner should not be seeing the field..
RE: RE: Hopefully Mckinney  
nygiants16 : 10/23/2020 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15021892 JB_in_DC said:
Quote:
In comment 15021848 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


Will plug a hole...Crowder returns, plug another....too bad Baker and or Beal wasn’t there to plug up a third hole.



Getting Darnay Holmes and Colbert back will help too. Ebner should not be seeing the field..


did ebner drop an easy pick on the 2nd to last drive?
This CB named Lewis  
Carson53 : 10/23/2020 12:42 pm : link
Ryan Lewis or Rhett Lewis whatever his name is,
has not helped in two of the last three games.
He allowed completions deep, late in the game.
You can't let a WR get behind you late in the game,
he's not a starting caliber corner, no wonder he has bounced around the league.
They need to draft a CB early in the draft.
RE: RE: RE: Hopefully Mckinney  
Carson53 : 10/23/2020 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15021895 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15021892 JB_in_DC said:


Quote:


In comment 15021848 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


Will plug a hole...Crowder returns, plug another....too bad Baker and or Beal wasn’t there to plug up a third hole.



Getting Darnay Holmes and Colbert back will help too. Ebner should not be seeing the field..



did ebner drop an easy pick on the 2nd to last drive?
.

I don't even know why Ebner is even out there myself?
He is nothing more than a special teams player, I guess
they are desperate. I can assure you that BB didn't use him on defense, with the Pats.
If  
Toth029 : 10/23/2020 1:32 pm : link
Not Ebner, they will play Yiadom or Ballentine.

Gotta look at the depth and see how poor it is before attacking the guy who was pegged as the 4th S.
RE: RE: Outside of Bradbury, his DB's stink.  
UConn4523 : 10/23/2020 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15021653 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15021613 Section331 said:


Quote:


Logan Ryan is a 4th corner on a good team, and he is arguably our 2nd. He has no ER's, so he has to manufacture a pass rush. His safeties stink, LB's are fair, the only good unit is the interior DL.

The late game TD's are frustrating, but this defense is FAR better than last year. My thought after last night was don't get to used to Graham as DC, he may be a HC soon.

It should be. We have the 9th highest paid DE in the League, the 7th highest paid corner, the 10th highest paid inside lb, Ryan is the 37th highest paid corner (which sounds ok until you think there are 32 teams and 96 corners and slot corners who play on a regular basis), a first rounder DT and a first rounder safety playing.

It seems Graham is getting credit for improving a defense that had a large cash infusion for FA in the offseason. I don't know that Graham, who was shown the door in Miami, is headed for a head coaching spot anytime soon.


New contracts always result in higher paid players, pretty flawed way of gauging how well this defense should or shouldn't do. We still don't have a pass rusher so no matter how many times you type "DE" for Williams, he's not an edge rusher.

You know as well as I do that the defense is playing far above its talent level. I can't think of s single BBIer that thought this defense would be good heading into this season, so don't act like this isn't a surprise and Graham isn't having a positive effect on the the D.
How can this not be on the coaches?  
Gregorio : 10/24/2020 10:11 am : link
the final 2 drives against Philly, they marched down the field twice, NYG committed 4 penalties, had blown assignments, resulting in 2 touchdowns.

Players aren't talented? I grant that some were late round draft picks with low expectations, but they are all pros and should know not to commit penalties.

Players were gassed? Come on, are they not running sprints in practice? The offense held the ball for 8 minutes before those final 2 drives. That was plenty of time to rest.

To me, the lack of discipline late in this game was on the coaches, not only Graham, but also his assistants.
RE: How can this not be on the coaches?  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/24/2020 10:49 am : link
In comment 15022971 Gregorio said:
Quote:
the final 2 drives against Philly, they marched down the field twice, NYG committed 4 penalties, had blown assignments, resulting in 2 touchdowns.

Players aren't talented? I grant that some were late round draft picks with low expectations, but they are all pros and should know not to commit penalties.

Players were gassed? Come on, are they not running sprints in practice? The offense held the ball for 8 minutes before those final 2 drives. That was plenty of time to rest.

To me, the lack of discipline late in this game was on the coaches, not only Graham, but also his assistants.


They were committing penalties because they were beaten. That is a talent issue. Guys commit penalties when they are beaten to stop something much worse than happening. That isn't on the coaches. In fact the only thing that pissed me off from a coaching standpoint is Ryan can't get beat deep there. We were up 11 no reason not to give a big a cushion as you need. Of course, we'd have people here crying about Prevent defense, but up 11 the clock is our friend and it's not like these guys are good.

Big difference between undisciplined, dumb penalties and what we saw the Giants give up. Or technique that these guys are obviously taught leading to penalties.

If you're gonna just look at final possession  
eclipz928 : 10/24/2020 11:12 am : link
to finish games then you have to cut it both ways. The offense has not scored a single point on their final possession of the game all year outside of Week 1 when they were already down 26-10 to the Steelers. The Giants rank 23rd in NFL in points scored in the 4th quarter.

The Giants as a TEAM doesn't finish games.
Another terrible post by another ignorant fan.  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/24/2020 12:24 pm : link
What happened to real football discussion here?

Here's a hint dude. When you want to broadly paint a coach or player or anyone as inept...


Don't make your point on a highly limited data set.

That's called citing examples simply to prove your point, its not any kind of insightful analysis.
RE: RE: How can this not be on the coaches?  
Gregorio : 10/24/2020 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15023008 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15022971 Gregorio said:

They were committing penalties because they were beaten. That is a talent issue. Guys commit penalties when they are beaten to stop something much worse than happening.


Do you mean beaten physically, or overmatched by opponent?
OP is correct  
section125 : 10/24/2020 5:19 pm : link
that Graham's opening defensive scheme is awful. But he gets after it right away and when was the last time a DC actually adjusted at half time.
No, I think we have our DC, unless he gets signed away.
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