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Dexter Lawrence — what are you seeing?

Jim from Katonah : 10/23/2020 10:46 am
Of all the recent draft picks, I was most excited about Dexter Lawrence, who I thought was going to be a Goliath-sized force in the middle. I’m not sure what to think now. Seems competent, but also saw him get overrun on a number of plays last night and haven’t really seen anything especially noteworthy (despite going against a lot of backups).

What do you gentlemen think?
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That's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2020 11:09 am : link
pretty damn good. Lawrence is a big part of that, as is Tomlinson and Williams.

Each week we get some head-scratching threads about players who actually are pulling their own weight
JAG  
bc4life : 10/23/2020 11:10 am : link
WTAMF?
RE: I think they had no business taking a run-stuffing lineman with a  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/23/2020 11:10 am : link
In comment 15021683 Anakim said:
Quote:
top-20 pick, but okay, we have him. He's good and promising, but he offers very little against the pass. I think he projects as a 3-4 NT or a 4-3 run-stuffer.


He would have been a great pick if we had a real pass rusher.
RE: That's..  
KDavies : 10/23/2020 11:11 am : link
In comment 15021765 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
pretty damn good. Lawrence is a big part of that, as is Tomlinson and Williams.

Each week we get some head-scratching threads about players who actually are pulling their own weight


Bingo. Do we not recall the past few years where we were just getting decimated by the run? People bitch about Lawrence getting drafting. They bitch about bringing in Williams. They are a lot better against the run on D.
So Lawrence is now a JAG?  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/23/2020 11:11 am : link
WTF?
The issue really isn't lawrence  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/23/2020 11:12 am : link
We run a 3-4. Pass rush needs to come from the LB group. Lawrence is filling his role and so is Darvin.

The roster isn't built right. There is no consistent threat at edge rusher.
Dalvin.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/23/2020 11:13 am : link
*
What you can argue is whether Lawrence was worth the draft pick.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/23/2020 11:17 am : link
The role he plays is not where that type of draft pick gets spent. Any pass rush you get from him is a bonus. To me, he's a NT. That's not a top ten position.
Average fan has no business analyzing O & D Lineman  
BlueHurricane : 10/23/2020 11:22 am : link
Without knowing scheme and assignments its almost impossible unless a guy is being taken to the woodshed. Especially with run stuffing D Lineman.
RE: Average fan has no business analyzing O & D Lineman  
Jim from Katonah : 10/23/2020 11:25 am : link
In comment 15021798 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
Without knowing scheme and assignments its almost impossible unless a guy is being taken to the woodshed. Especially with run stuffing D Lineman.


Just asking what you’re seeing. Not arguing, not pretending to know anything about line play (which I most assuredly don’t).
RE: RE: RE: He's a JAG.  
FStubbs : 10/23/2020 11:29 am : link
In comment 15021718 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15021709 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15021684 mittenedman said:


Quote:


You can't spend a 1st round pick on a run-stuffing DT.

I do think he's playing out of position and may have a knee injury (Tomlinson is playing NT which is where Lawrence should be) - but the ROI is questionable.

It's too bad the Giants couldn't've pulled off the trade up for Josh Allen after they had taken Jones. That would've been a great move paying big dividends.



This is 100% true. They picked a non-premium position with a premium pick. And they picked a position that they were already ok at and they are now playing this player out of position.

He's a DT/NT who is playing a 3-4 end. That's not what he does.

Lawrence is exactly who I thought he was when they picked him.

It's yet another complete blunder by fucking DG.


That would be on Bettcher/Graham. Why is he playing at 3-4 DE?


It's on Bettcher. Graham is just using the personnel he has on hand.
He looks like  
David B. : 10/23/2020 11:29 am : link
a young Leonard Williams. Spin that however you like.

None of the DTs are going to look great until there's also a pass rush from the edges.
That being said ...  
FStubbs : 10/23/2020 11:30 am : link
... Lawrence is one of the few really good players we have, so he has to line up on the field somewhere.
RE: What you can argue is whether Lawrence was worth the draft pick.  
UConn4523 : 10/23/2020 11:30 am : link
In comment 15021786 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
The role he plays is not where that type of draft pick gets spent. Any pass rush you get from him is a bonus. To me, he's a NT. That's not a top ten position.


I don't agree. QB, Edge Rusher, LT, RT are definitively above a NT/DT but you can argue that's it. Stopping the run is unbelievable valuable, as is taking on doubles to free up pass rushers.

We just aren't seeing the fruits of the labor because the pass rush talent it so poor. That Blake Martinez blitz up the middle is a prime example. Can't remember the last time we pulled that off.
sorry meant to add CB  
UConn4523 : 10/23/2020 11:31 am : link
.
Do we have different definitions of JAG?  
mittenedman : 10/23/2020 11:32 am : link
I'm not saying he isn't a legit NFL player. He's just not an impact player. When I say JAG - look at the Eagles DT's Hargraves and Cox. Is Lawrence any better than them? Is he any better than Tomlinson and Austin Johnson? He's clearly below the top tier DTs like Donald, Hicks, Cox, Buckner, etc. Go right through the other teams in the NFL. Payne & Allen for the Skins. You're telling me Dexter Lawrence is much more than an average starter?

I am not a fan of drafting run stuffing DTs in the 1st round unless you are talking about a Vince Wilfork/young Snacks Harrison. Completely dominant. Just like RBs, a good GM should be able to find run stuffers in the later rounds and bargain bin free agency.

Gettleman (who I don't hate nearly as much as others) did this in Carolina too - he drafted Victor Butler in the 1st round when he already had Star Lotulelei and Kawaan Short.

Can you honestly say there is that much a difference between Dexter Lawrence and - say - Austin Johnson to warrant taking Lawrence in the 1st round?
What Am I Seeing?  
HugeS : 10/23/2020 11:34 am : link
Linval Joseph 2.0. He's an absolute physical monster but a lot of his production is limited because his usage on this team is redundant to that of Dalvin Tomlinson. Rather than shoot gaps this scheme relies on the big boys up front to be versatile moving laterally and taking on doubles so guys like Blake Martinez can fill more aggressively. Tomlinson is really good in this scheme but Lawrence is kind of a tweener who's size and athletic ability kind of gets lost here. He's not as good at flowing through double teams as Tomlinson, but he doesn't have the upfield pass rush skills of Leonard Williams, and BJ Hill. One on one though, none of these guys can impose their will and just toss guys around the way he can. He is an absolute force when he can just maul through his blocker head on. As frustrated as we are with his lack of snaps and QB pressures, some team like Minnesota will jump on him in free agency, give him a penetrator role where he can wreak havoc in the interior, and he'll become an all pro.
Whoa..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2020 11:35 am : link
whoa, whoa. Lawrence isn't playing better than Austin Johnson now??

I really people would understand the role of the DT. And the impact they have. Just taking up blockers and neutralizing the line, not only stuffs the run, but allows LB's and safeties to come in cleanly for tackles.

Ask Martinez if he thinks Lawrence is doing a great job.

So many people want to boil down DT play to sacks. And if they don't get them, then that player is dinged and downgraded. But that's only by fans. Coaches know what role the DT is supposed to serve.
I  
jtfuoco : 10/23/2020 11:36 am : link
Think he is an above average DL but he gets worn out as a game goes on and is playing out of his ideal position. The key to him and Williams would to have a Stud pass rusher added I think this defense is one good Edge and CB from being elite
RE: I  
Jim from Katonah : 10/23/2020 11:41 am : link
In comment 15021819 jtfuoco said:
Quote:
Think he is an above average DL but he gets worn out as a game goes on and is playing out of his ideal position. The key to him and Williams would to have a Stud pass rusher added I think this defense is one good Edge and CB from being elite


Dear god, please allow McKinney to be the smart, versatile, ball hawking safety we need ... c’mon, throw us a bone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He's a JAG.  
Angel Eyes : 10/23/2020 11:43 am : link
In comment 15021807 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 15021718 Angel Eyes said:


Quote:


In comment 15021709 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15021684 mittenedman said:


Quote:


You can't spend a 1st round pick on a run-stuffing DT.

I do think he's playing out of position and may have a knee injury (Tomlinson is playing NT which is where Lawrence should be) - but the ROI is questionable.

It's too bad the Giants couldn't've pulled off the trade up for Josh Allen after they had taken Jones. That would've been a great move paying big dividends.



This is 100% true. They picked a non-premium position with a premium pick. And they picked a position that they were already ok at and they are now playing this player out of position.

He's a DT/NT who is playing a 3-4 end. That's not what he does.

Lawrence is exactly who I thought he was when they picked him.

It's yet another complete blunder by fucking DG.


That would be on Bettcher/Graham. Why is he playing at 3-4 DE?



It's on Bettcher. Graham is just using the personnel he has on hand.

And yet he's still listed as a defensive end.
really not worth having the conversation  
UConn4523 : 10/23/2020 11:46 am : link
if you think Lawrence is a JAG that tells me all I need to know about the poster.
He should be playing NT  
Joey in VA : 10/23/2020 11:51 am : link
Vita Vea was a top 10 pick at DT and no one batted an eye. In the 3-4 having that space eater inside is critical. Just because you can't discern his impact does not mean it's non existent. He eats up double teams and allows the ILBs room to operate. Leonardo Williams is playing as well as he ever has because teams are forced to double Lawrence. There is plenty to complain about, he's not
Thought  
XBRONX : 10/23/2020 11:52 am : link
when he was drafted,between size and movement he would be a great player. He is a very good player.
RE: RE: What you can argue is whether Lawrence was worth the draft pick.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/23/2020 11:52 am : link
In comment 15021810 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15021786 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


The role he plays is not where that type of draft pick gets spent. Any pass rush you get from him is a bonus. To me, he's a NT. That's not a top ten position.



I don't agree. QB, Edge Rusher, LT, RT are definitively above a NT/DT but you can argue that's it. Stopping the run is unbelievable valuable, as is taking on doubles to free up pass rushers.

We just aren't seeing the fruits of the labor because the pass rush talent it so poor. That Blake Martinez blitz up the middle is a prime example. Can't remember the last time we pulled that off.


I meant not a position you spend a top ten pick on, sorry. There are only so many people on the planet that can be a true NT but those guys don't go top ten. Even Vince Wilfork didn't go top 10 and he was a certified pass rusher. I go back to my point that I believe in the player, but I think they took him more on what they thought was his potential and what he could be after learning from a DL coach at the pro level. The expectation wasn't a run plugged. It was more of a two-way guy and in that I feel he was overdrafted.
When..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2020 11:54 am : link
was Lawrence picked in the Top 10?
Dexter Lawrence was drafted  
KDavies : 10/23/2020 11:58 am : link
#17 overall
incidentally  
KDavies : 10/23/2020 12:04 pm : link
Dexter Lawrence has 1 less sack than Clenin Ferrell and a lot more tacklets. Ferrell was drafted as more of a pass rusher at #4 overall.

I recall seeing someone the other day lauding the Raiders organization. It's funny the things people choose to shit on. Lawrence is not one of them.
RE: incidentally  
Angel Eyes : 10/23/2020 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15021886 KDavies said:
Quote:
Dexter Lawrence has 1 less sack than Clenin Ferrell and a lot more tacklets. Ferrell was drafted as more of a pass rusher at #4 overall.

I recall seeing someone the other day lauding the Raiders organization. It's funny the things people choose to shit on. Lawrence is not one of them.

I would have picked Maxx Crosby over Oshane Ximines though.
RE: really not worth having the conversation  
Jim from Katonah : 10/23/2020 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15021837 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
if you think Lawrence is a JAG that tells me all I need to know about the poster.


I think that’s a minority opinion.
He's a good player  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/23/2020 12:11 pm : link
my issue is he played only 45ish snaps? That's half of total defensive snap counts. So just less impactful from that standpoint.
RE: He's a good player  
Angel Eyes : 10/23/2020 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15021907 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
my issue is he played only 45ish snaps? That's half of total defensive snap counts. So just less impactful from that standpoint.

As I was wondering, has he been getting tired? He's only been on the field half the time.
RE: When..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/23/2020 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15021865 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
was Lawrence picked in the Top 10?


I have been flip-flipling Jones and Lawrence draft positions in my head for months. I'm sorry about that. I have made this mistake before.
No problem..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2020 12:22 pm : link
thanks for clarifying. I didn't think you meant top 10, but then it was mentioned twice.
The amount of people here bitching about our DL are clueless.  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/23/2020 12:25 pm : link
The pass rush in this defense needs to come from edge/olb. We just don’t have that right now and our only hope tore his Achilles. Can’t be great everywhere, but to have a truly good defense we need a couple solid defensive backs or an edge rusher. I think an edge rusher would be better considering how much pressure our interior line generates. Hopefully we secure that with our top 10 pick this year. Really has a chance to transform this defense from decent to top 5 IMO.
RE: The amount of people here bitching about our DL are clueless.  
Angel Eyes : 10/23/2020 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15021950 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
The pass rush in this defense needs to come from edge/olb. We just don’t have that right now and our only hope tore his Achilles. Can’t be great everywhere, but to have a truly good defense we need a couple solid defensive backs or an edge rusher. I think an edge rusher would be better considering how much pressure our interior line generates. Hopefully we secure that with our top 10 pick this year. Really has a chance to transform this defense from decent to top 5 IMO.

Edge rusher as a 4-3 end or a 3-4 rushbacker? Are we talking a Michael Strahan-type or Lawrence Taylor-type?
RE: That's..  
battttles : 10/23/2020 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15021765 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
pretty damn good. Lawrence is a big part of that, as is Tomlinson and Williams.

Each week we get some head-scratching threads about players who actually are pulling their own weight


Imagine hanging your hat on this, thinking it matters, as a 1-6 football team. That’s the whole point. A good DT, a DT simply doing his job, does not translate to wins. Don’t spend premium picks on players/positions with inherently limited ability to create wins. DG in Charlotte wooof.
RE: Is he getting gassed?  
Victor in CT : 10/23/2020 1:06 pm : link
In comment 15021681 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
His snap count has decreased considerably from Week 4 onward.


THis. I don't think he plays enough. WHy I don't know. Alot was made of his improved conditioning but I think he need tro be on the field more.
Hard for me to evaluate....  
BillKo : 10/23/2020 1:09 pm : link
....but he's no Fletcher Cox (not that they were drafted in the same slot).

I suppose he's doing well, as is the entire DL for the most part except for some breakdowns. Not having an edge rusher really hurts.

But people where making the comment we'd be saying the OBJ tradeoff would be worth it..not sure that's going to happen.

OBJ is and idiot, but he has some game changing moments here....I am not sure Lawrence approaches that (or course in a way a DT can).
RE: RE: That's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2020 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15021959 battttles said:
Quote:
In comment 15021765 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


pretty damn good. Lawrence is a big part of that, as is Tomlinson and Williams.

Each week we get some head-scratching threads about players who actually are pulling their own weight



Imagine hanging your hat on this, thinking it matters, as a 1-6 football team. That’s the whole point. A good DT, a DT simply doing his job, does not translate to wins. Don’t spend premium picks on players/positions with inherently limited ability to create wins. DG in Charlotte wooof.


What does translate to wins?? That's such an ambiguous take. Hey, a good RB doesn't translate to wins. A good DT doesn't. A good Wr doesn't. Blah, Blah, Blah.

If you collect enough good players - it is likely you will be a winning team. Lawrence is a good to great player.
RE: What you can argue is whether Lawrence was worth the draft pick.  
BMac : 10/23/2020 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15021786 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
The role he plays is not where that type of draft pick gets spent. Any pass rush you get from him is a bonus. To me, he's a NT. That's not a top ten position.


That's good because he was drafted at 17, not in the top 10.
Day late...  
BMac : 10/23/2020 2:36 pm : link
...and a dollar short.
RE: Whoa..  
Angel Eyes : 10/23/2020 2:55 pm : link
In comment 15021817 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
whoa, whoa. Lawrence isn't playing better than Austin Johnson now??

I really people would understand the role of the DT. And the impact they have. Just taking up blockers and neutralizing the line, not only stuffs the run, but allows LB's and safeties to come in cleanly for tackles.

Ask Martinez if he thinks Lawrence is doing a great job.

So many people want to boil down DT play to sacks. And if they don't get them, then that player is dinged and downgraded. But that's only by fans. Coaches know what role the DT is supposed to serve.

If Dexter Lawrence is so great, why is he playing less?
RE: RE: The amount of people here bitching about our DL are clueless.  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/23/2020 3:00 pm : link
In comment 15021956 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15021950 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


The pass rush in this defense needs to come from edge/olb. We just don’t have that right now and our only hope tore his Achilles. Can’t be great everywhere, but to have a truly good defense we need a couple solid defensive backs or an edge rusher. I think an edge rusher would be better considering how much pressure our interior line generates. Hopefully we secure that with our top 10 pick this year. Really has a chance to transform this defense from decent to top 5 IMO.


Edge rusher as a 4-3 end or a 3-4 rushbacker? Are we talking a Michael Strahan-type or Lawrence Taylor-type?


Honestly I think our top pick next year is going to determine that. Our personnel up front can play the 4/3 and we certainly don’t have rush backers to keep us here. Graham I think can run both and all that’s come out their mouths is ability to be multiple so I think our base next year will be dictated whether what type will be available to us with our top pick.
RE: RE: Whoa..  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/23/2020 3:01 pm : link
In comment 15022276 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15021817 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


whoa, whoa. Lawrence isn't playing better than Austin Johnson now??

I really people would understand the role of the DT. And the impact they have. Just taking up blockers and neutralizing the line, not only stuffs the run, but allows LB's and safeties to come in cleanly for tackles.

Ask Martinez if he thinks Lawrence is doing a great job.

So many people want to boil down DT play to sacks. And if they don't get them, then that player is dinged and downgraded. But that's only by fans. Coaches know what role the DT is supposed to serve.


If Dexter Lawrence is so great, why is he playing less?


His tank stinks and I don’t know if you noticed we have lots of dline man playing well.
RE: RE: RE: Whoa..  
Angel Eyes : 10/23/2020 3:04 pm : link
In comment 15022290 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15022276 Angel Eyes said:


Quote:


In comment 15021817 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


whoa, whoa. Lawrence isn't playing better than Austin Johnson now??

I really people would understand the role of the DT. And the impact they have. Just taking up blockers and neutralizing the line, not only stuffs the run, but allows LB's and safeties to come in cleanly for tackles.

Ask Martinez if he thinks Lawrence is doing a great job.

So many people want to boil down DT play to sacks. And if they don't get them, then that player is dinged and downgraded. But that's only by fans. Coaches know what role the DT is supposed to serve.


If Dexter Lawrence is so great, why is he playing less?



His tank stinks and I don’t know if you noticed we have lots of dline man playing well.

His tank stinks? I’m confused.
Our D Line has been a rare bright spot in my opinion  
jrthomps2006 : 10/23/2020 3:06 pm : link
Feel like they’ve been solid
Lawrence is good at what he does  
Greg from LI : 10/23/2020 3:08 pm : link
But he's a somewhat limited player. I'd like to see more from him, but he's one of the better players on the defense.
RE: incidentally  
chopperhatch : 10/23/2020 3:09 pm : link
In comment 15021886 KDavies said:
Quote:
Dexter Lawrence has 1 less sack than Clenin Ferrell and a lot more tacklets. Ferrell was drafted as more of a pass rusher at #4 overall.

I recall seeing someone the other day lauding the Raiders organization. It's funny the things people choose to shit on. Lawrence is not one of them.


It was probably me and I stand by that assertion. Ferrell may not be worthy of the 4th overall pick based on sack numbers, but he is a pretty damn good 2 way DE. Factor in the value that they got in Crosby and Id say they broke even.

They also have a very good OL that has been mashing. Waller was a diamond in the rough.

That is a team built from the inside out and they are playing power football.
I have seen him get washed out of some running plays  
Simms11 : 10/23/2020 5:13 pm : link
but has been solid for the most part. I think he can get even better. It took Tomlinson about 3 years before he seemed to get it. DLaw is well on that path IMO. I don’t think DLine is a concern with the rotation we currently have either.
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