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The Book on Daniel Jones and the Decision for Next Year

Mike from SI : 10/23/2020 12:21 pm
According to NFL.com, he played in 13 games last year, and he has started all 7 games this year. So he has played in ~20 games and has 9 games left this year. In other words, we have seen 2/3 of his games by the end of this year.

What do we need to see in his final 1/3 of games? I feel if his final 1/3 of games are similar to the first 2/3, we move on IF we can get Lawrence or Fields. I'd want to see a pretty marked improvement, especially in turnovers, over the final 9 games to stick with him.

I understand that he's playing behind a shit OL and with crummy skill players, but truly good QBs do more with less.

What say you?
I disagree with the "truly good QBs do more with less"  
Chris684 : 10/23/2020 12:25 pm : link
at this stage of his career. Who?

I don't care what he does the next 1/3 of games.  
cactus : 10/23/2020 12:27 pm : link
You blow it up if you can get Lawrence.
I think last night was apparent you let him play out his rookie  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/23/2020 12:31 pm : link
contract. He outplayed Wentz unquestionably. This offense stinks and its neither Garrett's or DJs fault. DG owns this putrid shit. Completely disregarded the WR's this year in a historically deep class. It's hard to imagine our LT is going to evolve into a perennial top 5 type guy at this moment in time. Every time I watch this offense, I just want DG gone more and more. If he was able to build a halfway decent offense the defense would actually look good. Just way too much pressure on them all the time and they are about two pieces away from being top 5 imo. Football is a complimentary sport.
RE: I disagree with the  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/23/2020 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15021953 Chris684 said:
Quote:
at this stage of his career. Who?


Yeh I'm still waiting on this mythical QB that lit it up on a talent deficient offense in his 2nd year.
unless  
Producer : 10/23/2020 12:34 pm : link
he plays significantly better you start to look for a better QB.
Fields?  
Carl in CT : 10/23/2020 12:35 pm : link
The same guy who couldn’t start at Georgia? How has other OSU QBs done in the pro’s? Lawerence is a different story. Best prospect in years. Different answer.
What truly good QB does more with less?  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2020 12:38 pm : link
I hear this all the time, is it true?
Find me 1 QB in the last 20 years from OSU  
Carl in CT : 10/23/2020 12:39 pm : link
Who did anything in the NFL worth talking about. There value is inflated because of all the talent around them and subpar talent of their opponents.
For 2 weeks, this is how I've been looking at him  
Matt M. : 10/23/2020 12:39 pm : link
Every game he has made some plays that jump out at you as reasons why we took him at #6. Last night was no different. However, each game we also see a number of plays that jump out at you as reasons why so many thought we were nuts for taking him at all or at least at #6. Again, last night was no different.

More designed runs, RPOs, etc. are certainly one way to see more plays like that 80 yard run. Before someone misinterprets that as thinking I expect an 80 yard run every week...no. I'm saying it would be nice to see us make better use of his legs on a consistent basis. He has also shown a great ability to make some very difficult deep throws, which is difficult for us to try to replicate consistently when we can't protect.

On the other hand, almost every game he has played he's turned the ball over at least once. Almost every game he's played he's fumbled. These continue to be issues. Every week he has some throws like the one that just slipped out of his hand last night.

So, if he continues to play like he has for the rest of the season AND we have a shot at Lawrence or Fields, I think you have to be willing to move on. He still very well may be a QB that sees overall success in this league. He certainly is talented and he isn't terrible overall. But, so far, he also hasn't shown himself to be that captivating QB who will put a team on his shoulders and win games on his own. I recognize that is asking a lot of a QB on this team with this roster. But, at this stage, I think it is more a given that he will have a crucial turnover than a positive game changing play.

If the Giants play well enough to fall out of the top 2 or 3 spots where those 2 QBs specifically are gone, then looking to replace him now is probably not the right move. But, if not, it is probably at least in part due to his play and it would be very difficult to turn down 2 QBs with much higher pedigrees and ceilings at this point. To me, the only alternative would be to trade down from one of those spots, collecting more picks.
Britt  
Carl in CT : 10/23/2020 12:41 pm : link
I don’t see another QB in this league who could come to the Giants with this roster and make us a team over .400 winning percentage and yes that includes PM, LJ, RW AR, TB etc.
It's such a tough evaluation  
AdamBrag : 10/23/2020 12:43 pm : link
He's clearly shown good and bad. As a pure pocket passer, he can make a ton of throws and pressure doesn't seem to phase him too much. On the flip side, he locks onto his first read way too often and it seems like he struggles processing post snap. He is not creative post snap either.

However, the Giants haven't been doing him any help. As OP mentioned, he is playing behind a poor offensive line. In fact, since starting he's been pressured more then any other QB in the league. He is also playing in an offense with terrible playing calling and horrible route concepts. His receivers are rarely open. The current offense isn't playing to his strengths and are instead exposing his weaknesses. Dude is legit fast, yet maybe there's 2 designed runs a game. The offensive line is struggling to protect, but they are just keeping him in the pocket instead of rolling him out. They should also be encouraging him to take off and run a lot more when the pocket collapses.

If we keep the same offense in place for next year and hope that there's going to be some massive improvement because we bring in a #1 WR, I think that's a mistake. If we try to craft an offense that plays to his strengths, I'd be very interested to see how that plays out next year.
What play (one play) last night  
Carl in CT : 10/23/2020 12:44 pm : link
Can you say Jones played bad? Int to Engram (off his hands), fumble at the end? (Need his receivers to run 30 yds to heave it up) Line broke down, played great pressures on 60% of his passes. Kid played almost a perfect game. So don’t say last night.
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2020 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15021991 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
I don’t see another QB in this league who could come to the Giants with this roster and make us a team over .400 winning percentage and yes that includes PM, LJ, RW AR, TB etc.


Let’s put it this way....

Lamar Jackson was the league MVP. Would he still be the Lamar Jackson MVP player you know if he was drafted by us? Even close?
A few thoughts...  
Metnut : 10/23/2020 12:46 pm : link
We don't have to take the decision now. We still have another 9 games to evaluate him and he has another 9 games to improve.

Personally, at the moment, I think we have to run to the podium to take Lawrence if we get #1 overall. You can't pass on a super franchise QB prospect unless you already have one in the bag, and if we get #1, then we won't be able to say that about Jones. If we're in #2 and Fields plays good enough to be a true 1A at the top of the draft, the same analysis would apply.

Other than that, I've seen enough flashes from Jones that I'd give him a 3rd year and try to improve other areas of the team. Put differently, Jones has flashed enough based on what I've seen to earn a third year absent the Giants having a chance to an elite franchise QB prospect.
There’s a better than average chance that this roster would turn....  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2020 12:47 pm : link
Lamar Jackson into Geno Smith.
Steve Smith said it best last night post game....  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2020 12:48 pm : link
Daniel Jones is a franchise QB in a piss poor team.
RE: RE: Britt  
nygiants16 : 10/23/2020 12:49 pm : link
In comment 15022001 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15021991 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


I don’t see another QB in this league who could come to the Giants with this roster and make us a team over .400 winning percentage and yes that includes PM, LJ, RW AR, TB etc.



Let’s put it this way....

Lamar Jackson was the league MVP. Would he still be the Lamar Jackson MVP player you know if he was drafted by us? Even close?


Lamar Jackson is a running back playing qb, yes i think he could do what he does anywhere, would he win at the rate he is winning, i dont think so
Idk how we would pass on Lawrence  
Bleedblue10 : 10/23/2020 12:51 pm : link
Most teams in the NFL save maybe 4-5 wouldn’t but I want now part of Justin Fields or Trey Lance.
Other QBs doing better with about the same this year  
Mike from SI : 10/23/2020 12:52 pm : link
Wentz has had just as bad an OL and skill players about the same.

I don't know about the Dolphins OL but Fitzpatrick's skill players are on par with the Giants.

Gardner Minshew's numbers are way better than Jones'.

I hope that Jones turns it around but I'm not sticking with a guy being outplayed by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Gardner Minshew.

DJ  
Simms : 10/23/2020 12:53 pm : link
I wish him the best. He has to tools to be more, but Eli suffered the same fate with holes all around him.

When Engram dropped that ball, knew it was over. Seen to many Giant mishaps especially vs the Eagles turning the tide.

The Giants / Mara Tech will not draft a QB in the first round next season. Its not our way. A reach for them would be convert Engram to a WR, trade down and draft a TE, or another WR.
Also when people say he locks onto his reads  
Bleedblue10 : 10/23/2020 12:54 pm : link
I just think they are repeating something they heard without actually watching what’s happening. It sure looks to me like this offense is not creative at all. Some of the plays look like they are designed to go to one guy and if he isn’t open there is a checkdown or a curl. I could be wrong but none of the routes work off each other and it’s contributing to his struggles big time
RE: Other QBs doing better with about the same this year  
Johnny5 : 10/23/2020 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15022024 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Wentz has had just as bad an OL and skill players about the same.

I don't know about the Dolphins OL but Fitzpatrick's skill players are on par with the Giants.

Gardner Minshew's numbers are way better than Jones'.

I hope that Jones turns it around but I'm not sticking with a guy being outplayed by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Gardner Minshew.

Well, all I can tell you is Wentz was a whole... WHOLE lot more comfy behind his OL than Jones was behind ours last night. Jones was hit/rushed/hurried and never had one chance to step up in the pocket on every/any offensive play that I watched. Not sure how people don't see that.
Please also note the following  
Mike from SI : 10/23/2020 1:01 pm : link
Quote:
Daniel Jones has 34 career turnovers, most for an active QB in his first 20 games.

That "record" was previously held by Geno Smith (32)

Link - ( New Window )
People just don’t know what  
Giants in 07 : 10/23/2020 1:02 pm : link
They are watching on TV.
“Good QBs do more with less”  
Saquads26 : 10/23/2020 1:03 pm : link
Name some...
I'm with Carl in CT  
BigBlueNH : 10/23/2020 1:04 pm : link
Jones played almost a perfect game. Evading pressure, putting the ball on the money in tight spots (as he always does), making plays with his legs. The int was 100% not on him. The fumble at the end was him holding the ball to allow the receivers to get deep enough for a desperation heave, and the line again not giving him the time to do that. The game was over at that point, absent a miracle.
RE: For 2 weeks, this is how I've been looking at him  
Scooter185 : 10/23/2020 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15021988 Matt M. said:
Quote:
Every game he has made some plays that jump out at you as reasons why we took him at #6. Last night was no different. However, each game we also see a number of plays that jump out at you as reasons why so many thought we were nuts for taking him at all or at least at #6. Again, last night was no different.

More designed runs, RPOs, etc. are certainly one way to see more plays like that 80 yard run. Before someone misinterprets that as thinking I expect an 80 yard run every week...no. I'm saying it would be nice to see us make better use of his legs on a consistent basis. He has also shown a great ability to make some very difficult deep throws, which is difficult for us to try to replicate consistently when we can't protect.

On the other hand, almost every game he has played he's turned the ball over at least once. Almost every game he's played he's fumbled. These continue to be issues. Every week he has some throws like the one that just slipped out of his hand last night.

So, if he continues to play like he has for the rest of the season AND we have a shot at Lawrence or Fields, I think you have to be willing to move on. He still very well may be a QB that sees overall success in this league. He certainly is talented and he isn't terrible overall. But, so far, he also hasn't shown himself to be that captivating QB who will put a team on his shoulders and win games on his own. I recognize that is asking a lot of a QB on this team with this roster. But, at this stage, I think it is more a given that he will have a crucial turnover than a positive game changing play.

If the Giants play well enough to fall out of the top 2 or 3 spots where those 2 QBs specifically are gone, then looking to replace him now is probably not the right move. But, if not, it is probably at least in part due to his play and it would be very difficult to turn down 2 QBs with much higher pedigrees and ceilings at this point. To me, the only alternative would be to trade down from one of those spots, collecting more picks.


+1 well said
RE: “Good QBs do more with less”  
Mike from SI : 10/23/2020 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15022049 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
Name some...


This year, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Gardner Minshew have outplayed Jones with comparable surrounding players.
RE: Also when people say he locks onto his reads  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/23/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15022028 Bleedblue10 said:
Quote:
I just think they are repeating something they heard without actually watching what’s happening. It sure looks to me like this offense is not creative at all. Some of the plays look like they are designed to go to one guy and if he isn’t open there is a checkdown or a curl. I could be wrong but none of the routes work off each other and it’s contributing to his struggles big time


I like DJ, but he has a tendency to trust his pre snap reads too much. The offense can't be creative. You need talent to be creative and we can't hang our hat on either our skill players or oline. In fact on the scouts feed last night they were very complimentary of Garrett's game plan. Said that TD was Shephard was all scheme. People just don't want to face the fact our talent on offense fucking sucks. It sucks and I'm not sure there's answers here in the short term. Maybe Peart becomes a starting caliber tackle.
RE: Fields?  
Section331 : 10/23/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15021978 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
The same guy who couldn’t start at Georgia? How has other OSU QBs done in the pro’s? Lawerence is a different story. Best prospect in years. Different answer.


I agree with this. DJ has some pretty tantalizing tools. He has some things to work on, things that not every QB figures out, so there is still a bust factor possible, but unless he totally shits the bed the rest of the year, he is the starter game 1 of 2021.

That said, unless we have a shot at getting Lawrence, but I don't think that will happen.
Taking in his 20 game history  
dlauster : 10/23/2020 1:10 pm : link
he seems to be one part Montana to Clark and one part Sanchez butt fumble.

Its a bit maddening really, but I do think he's earned the right to play next year with some better tools.

We have bigger, more immediate holes to fill than at QB. If he doesn't play more consistently by 22-23, then you cut bait.
RE: A few thoughts...  
Section331 : 10/23/2020 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15022002 Metnut said:
Quote:
We don't have to take the decision now. We still have another 9 games to evaluate him and he has another 9 games to improve.

Personally, at the moment, I think we have to run to the podium to take Lawrence if we get #1 overall. You can't pass on a super franchise QB prospect unless you already have one in the bag, and if we get #1, then we won't be able to say that about Jones. If we're in #2 and Fields plays good enough to be a true 1A at the top of the draft, the same analysis would apply.

Other than that, I've seen enough flashes from Jones that I'd give him a 3rd year and try to improve other areas of the team. Put differently, Jones has flashed enough based on what I've seen to earn a third year absent the Giants having a chance to an elite franchise QB prospect.


Exactly. You said it better than I did.
He’s not the answer..  
RUNYG : 10/23/2020 1:12 pm : link
QBs who have no pocket presence and are TO prone do not make it in this league.
If we can somehow find a decent cb and a top ER  
Payasdaddy : 10/23/2020 1:12 pm : link
In free agency, not an easy get, I would be find with drafting all offense
In draft. Of course we only have 5 picks thanks to esteemed DG
2 wr and a TE
Heck. I would draft a RO and TE too
We don’t know if Barkley will recover and if he isn’t 97%, I am 50/50 on extending him
Gallman ran hard, if saquon ever saw those holes he would take it to the house
He sure didn’t when he was playing
RE: He’s not the answer..  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2020 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15022079 RUNYG said:
Quote:
QBs who have no pocket presence and are TO prone do not make it in this league.


What pocket? There actually has to be a pocket for a QB to have Pocket presence.
WTF more can any QB do with the weapons he has around him?  
montanagiant : 10/23/2020 1:20 pm : link
This kid is the least of our problems. He did everything possible to win that game last night. All it required was an EE catch on a perfectly thrown ball and it was game.
If I see another freaking person say  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/23/2020 1:21 pm : link
“Good QBs do more with less”, my head is going to explode. Give me specific examples of QBs with 15-20 NFL starts doing more with THIS much less? They only attempted 22 passes last night and there were pressures on 9 of them. There was one sack in which Thomas was beaten almost immediately by a spin move, Fleming was beaten around the edge, and Zeitler was pushed back about 5 yards onto Jones’ lap. Sterling Shepard is hardly DeAndre Hopkins, but it was obvious he’s 10,000% better than everyone who’s played opposite Darius Slayton the past month.

I would draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but enough with this horseshit about mythical QBs who in their second seasons were elevating trash rosters. Enough already.
I'm a big believer in Jones' talent  
KDavies : 10/23/2020 1:25 pm : link
I take Lawrence without hesitation if we are in position, but we won't. I stick with him. He is getting better as the season goes along and he gets more acclimated with the offense. Next year, I expect the OL to improve. Peart, Thomas, Gates should have a full training camp and preseason at their positions, and the line should be solidified.

Additionally, Barkley will be back next year, and I expect them to either add a playmaking WR in FA, or in the top 3 rounds of the draft. Between hopefully an improved OL, and playmakers such as Barkley, WR addition, Slayton, and Shephard, we see some marked improvement.

With that next year, it will be a key year for Jones. If he continues to have the turnover issues, the Giants may have to re-evaluate the position. However, while some is his fault, a lot of his turnover issues are due to poor OL play. I would expect that improved OL play would alleviate some of those issues.
RE: Find me 1 QB in the last 20 years from OSU  
PatersonPlank : 10/23/2020 1:26 pm : link
In comment 15021987 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Who did anything in the NFL worth talking about. There value is inflated because of all the talent around them and subpar talent of their opponents.


Exactly, and I said this on a thread about a week ago. Of course then I got blasted with "but Fields is different". How do we know that? Wasn't Haskins different too? What about Pryor, Troy Smith, JT Barrett, and Cardale Jones? Hell the gambleholic Schlichter may be their best QB. They are so loaded elsewhere a lot of kids could play QB for them. I get the feeling their recruiting looks for top talent in other places, and just gets more role players for QB
He'll Get At Least Next Year  
lax counsel : 10/23/2020 1:37 pm : link
The Jets are a lock for 0-16 and I frankly wouldn't trust Fields over Jones at this point. Even if the Jets get the #1 pick, Lawrence may return to school.

If by the end of next year, Jones is still the same guy in terms of turnovers and mistakes, the 2022 draft may very well be loaded with qb talent.

What's critical here is evaluating Jones before you'd give him a second contract. That will likely fall to Judge and whatever GM is paired with him.
I thought last night was his best game of the year  
Rick in Dallas : 10/23/2020 1:40 pm : link
He has the arm strength to play in the NFL. I would not place blame on DJ for the interception.
Sure it had some heat on it but good receivers catch that ball 9 out of 10 times.EE knows he should have caught that ball.I feel that he is learning from his mistakes. Last night under extreme pressure he threw the ball out of bounds.
On several of his sacks, I noticed he held onto the ball with both hands.On his fumble he was running to his left away from pressure and the ball was held down low hence the fumble. That's on DJ but I feel that can be a coaching and learning experience.
I for one am not ready to give up on DJ. I feel that he has the talent to play in this league. He is a tough kid taking alot of hits. He also appears to have good leadership abilities and a good presence in the huddle.
He definitely needs to work on his timing in the pocket.
I like his accuracy throwing the ball. We got 9 games to go this year and my hope for the future is that DJ continues to show improvement on his timing and ball security.He looks to be a very coachable player.





RE: Other QBs doing better with about the same this year  
jvm52106 : 10/23/2020 1:50 pm : link
In comment 15022024 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Wentz has had just as bad an OL and skill players about the same.

I don't know about the Dolphins OL but Fitzpatrick's skill players are on par with the Giants.

Gardner Minshew's numbers are way better than Jones'.

I hope that Jones turns it around but I'm not sticking with a guy being outplayed by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Gardner Minshew.


Wentz has played with the same system and coach for 3 years! Wentz's has been under fore for poor play. Jones out played wentz. Don't let stats fool you.
RE: RE: “Good QBs do more with less”  
jvm52106 : 10/23/2020 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15022065 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
In comment 15022049 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


Name some...



This year, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Gardner Minshew have outplayed Jones with comparable surrounding players.


You can't be that stupid! All have been in the same system for at least 2 seasons.. Jags receivers would all be an upgrade, Phins receivers Williams and Parker would stars with Jones and Eagles Te's and Fulgram would be huge upgrades..
He's gonna be the guy next year  
Go Terps : 10/23/2020 1:54 pm : link
And that's ok as long as they understand what he is and is not good at. Garrett (or preferably a replacement for Garrett) has to understand two things about Jones and build the offense around these two things:

1. Jones's mobility is a huge asset. There should be 8-10 planned QB runs each game. A priority this offseason should be acquiring two backup quarterbacks with mobility.

2. Jones is NOT a traditional pocket passer. If he is in the pocket past 2-3 seconds the chances of a successful play go down dramatically. The pass plays have to be designed to be prescribed throws - three prime examples from last night:

- TD to Tate
- big gain to Shepard (Aikman pointed it out - 3 steps and the ball was out)
- Engram drop

On these throws Jones probably identified his target pre-snap. In these situations he is a great passer. But you can't have him scanning for second or third reads. It has to be prescribed. Otherwise he's a liability.

THIS GUY IS NOT ELI. DON'T TRY TO MAKE HIM ELI.

QB runs, RPOs, rollouts - that's what works with Jones.

RE: He's gonna be the guy next year  
Thegratefulhead : 10/23/2020 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15022179 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And that's ok as long as they understand what he is and is not good at. Garrett (or preferably a replacement for Garrett) has to understand two things about Jones and build the offense around these two things:

1. Jones's mobility is a huge asset. There should be 8-10 planned QB runs each game. A priority this offseason should be acquiring two backup quarterbacks with mobility.

2. Jones is NOT a traditional pocket passer. If he is in the pocket past 2-3 seconds the chances of a successful play go down dramatically. The pass plays have to be designed to be prescribed throws - three prime examples from last night:

- TD to Tate
- big gain to Shepard (Aikman pointed it out - 3 steps and the ball was out)
- Engram drop

On these throws Jones probably identified his target pre-snap. In these situations he is a great passer. But you can't have him scanning for second or third reads. It has to be prescribed. Otherwise he's a liability.

THIS GUY IS NOT ELI. DON'T TRY TO MAKE HIM ELI.

QB runs, RPOs, rollouts - that's what works with Jones.
I was fucking pissed the last drive the Giants had the ball they did not run Jones. Are fucking kidding me?
I was calling for that too,  
Go Terps : 10/23/2020 2:09 pm : link
but you've gotta be fair - when called upon to make a game winning play Jones made it. Engram didn't.
Lots of good insight here  
arniefez : 10/23/2020 2:17 pm : link
sadly Garrett is a Mara family member now so he is going nowhere.

Jones has ZERO pocket presence. He also is awful at reading pre snap defenses and setting the protection. He has no idea where the rush is coming from and no pocket awareness to avoid the rush which causes A LOT of fumbles a deadly combo.

He is clearly not close to an elite franchise carrying QB. But he has skills/assets that if used correctly on a talented team would make that team a contender. Put him behind the 2017-2019 Dallas OL with Elliot at RB and the NFL media would be anointing him the next Staubach but he's really the next Alex Smith.

If KC Alex Smith is good enough for you Jones is your guy.

RE: Lots of good insight here  
lax counsel : 10/23/2020 2:35 pm : link
In comment 15022215 arniefez said:
Quote:
sadly Garrett is a Mara family member now so he is going nowhere.

Jones has ZERO pocket presence. He also is awful at reading pre snap defenses and setting the protection. He has no idea where the rush is coming from and no pocket awareness to avoid the rush which causes A LOT of fumbles a deadly combo.

He is clearly not close to an elite franchise carrying QB. But he has skills/assets that if used correctly on a talented team would make that team a contender. Put him behind the 2017-2019 Dallas OL with Elliot at RB and the NFL media would be anointing him the next Staubach but he's really the next Alex Smith.

If KC Alex Smith is good enough for you Jones is your guy.


That's a great point, and we saw that KC Alex Smith on a talented team wasn't good enough to put the Chiefs over the top, it took Mahomes unique skill set and talents to complete the journey.

I do think Jones has some more physical ability than Smith, but we'll certainly learn more over the next 9 games and the 2021 season.
There is no chance Garrett will be replaced..  
Sean : 10/23/2020 2:37 pm : link
barring him getting hired as a head coach (I wouldn’t rule out Atlanta).

I see no way they will implement a third offensive system in 3 years for Jones. I would really be surprised. Continuity will be the goal. I don’t think Garrett is awful, I think he’s called better games since Dallas, but as Terps mentioned the offense still needs to be geared more towards Jones.
RE: I was calling for that too,  
Thegratefulhead : 10/23/2020 2:46 pm : link
In comment 15022202 Go Terps said:
Quote:
but you've gotta be fair - when called upon to make a game winning play Jones made it. Engram didn't.
He should have caught that ball but I have issue with calling the pass perfect. It was on his fingertips, it would have been a good catch.
RE: RE: I was calling for that too,  
montanagiant : 10/23/2020 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15022264 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15022202 Go Terps said:


Quote:


but you've gotta be fair - when called upon to make a game winning play Jones made it. Engram didn't.

He should have caught that ball but I have issue with calling the pass perfect. It was on his fingertips, it would have been a good catch.
Ok, so he was 1 inch long. The receiver is allowed to lay out for it also
RE: RE: RE: “Good QBs do more with less”  
Tom in NY : 10/23/2020 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15022175 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15022065 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


In comment 15022049 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


Name some...



This year, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Gardner Minshew have outplayed Jones with comparable surrounding players.



You can't be that stupid! All have been in the same system for at least 2 seasons.. Jags receivers would all be an upgrade, Phins receivers Williams and Parker would stars with Jones and Eagles Te's and Fulgram would be huge upgrades..


This is actually Wentz's 5th year in this system (2016-2020).

Jones' main issue is the pocket awareness/time for a play to develop. Most of his fumbles and sacks are due to this issue. The other big issue for Jones is that he has played the majority of his games with very little talent around him in the skills positions (injuries) and Oline (poor personnel decisions).
RE: RE: “Good QBs do more with less”  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2020 2:55 pm : link
In comment 15022065 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
In comment 15022049 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


Name some...



This year, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Gardner Minshew have outplayed Jones with comparable surrounding players.


Even if you really think Jones has been outplayed by those three, you sort of make the point for everyone else.

What have Minshew, Wentz or Fitzpatrick won this year? There's a 1 win team, a 2 win team and 3 win team in there
...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/23/2020 3:00 pm : link
If a QB elevates those around him, it's hard to tell who is doing more with less, no?

I actually don't think anyone other than Darnold has less offensive talent around him than Jones. I do think Herbert and Burrow look quite good with pretty mediocre talent around them, but it's too early to really judge.

I think Wilson has had some atrocious talent around him at points in the preceding years.

If they get #1, they need to take Lawrence.
RE: RE: I was calling for that too,  
Go Terps : 10/23/2020 3:01 pm : link
In comment 15022264 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15022202 Go Terps said:


Quote:


but you've gotta be fair - when called upon to make a game winning play Jones made it. Engram didn't.

He should have caught that ball but I have issue with calling the pass perfect. It was on his fingertips, it would have been a good catch.


This is the NFL. That pass has to be caught 100 times out of 100. That was a perfect throw.
RE: I don't care what he does the next 1/3 of games.  
Gruber : 10/23/2020 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15021958 cactus said:
Quote:
You blow it up if you can get Lawrence.


How are we going to get Lawrence? I really can't see the Jets finishing with the same or better record than us. They really look on course to go 0-16. And Washington are probably going to end up with a worse record too.
Trevor Lawrence may well look at the Jets and say, "Nah, I think I'll spend another year in college."*


*And the Jets end up with the #1 pick in 2022.
He clearly has the traits of a Franchise QB.....  
Simms11 : 10/23/2020 4:28 pm : link
Very athletic and smart. He is still a work in progress however. I’d like to see his decision -making improve more. He needs to figure out when to tuck it and run or when to shift blocking, etc. just reading defenses better will help as well. He does need better blocking up front. That’s a given, as he’s got virtually no pocket and seems to have to back pedal and throw off of his back foot quite often.
RE: RE: RE: I was calling for that too,  
Thegratefulhead : 10/23/2020 4:50 pm : link
In comment 15022288 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15022264 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15022202 Go Terps said:


Quote:


but you've gotta be fair - when called upon to make a game winning play Jones made it. Engram didn't.

He should have caught that ball but I have issue with calling the pass perfect. It was on his fingertips, it would have been a good catch.



This is the NFL. That pass has to be caught 100 times out of 100. That was a perfect throw.
12 inches shorter would have been perfect. I still have the recording in HD. Watch it, it would be a good catch. He was running full speed and it hit his fingers, his palms did not touch it as far as I can tell. Looks like he got most of his fingers on it. NFL players should make that catch. not easily, not quite perfect pass. He had steps on the defender, it did not have to be as far.
he's in his second offensive system  
bc4life : 10/23/2020 4:56 pm : link
in as many years, no preseason to speak of. Fix the O-Line is what you need to do.
Shorter  
Thegratefulhead : 10/23/2020 4:59 pm : link
go to high resolution and watch it a few times. You really don't think if the pass was a foot shorter it would be perfect? He has at least 2 steps. That ball should be caught but it wasn't easy. It didn't need to be on his finger tips. It could have been 5 feet shorter and a completion. My idea of perfect could be different than yours.
Engram drop - ( New Window )
I d say moving on from Jones  
joeinpa : 10/23/2020 5:09 pm : link
Would be a terrible decision. I m pulling really hard for the kid, hopefully Giants win enough games in the next 9 that there won’t be any decision to make.
Jones  
WillVAB : 10/23/2020 8:47 pm : link
What I want to see is the ability to lead the offense down the field on a come from behind victory. He did it once in Tampa last year but I want to see more of that. Even if the defense turns around and gives it right back. To truly be the guy fans should feel good about the QB having the ball at the end of the game. I’m not there yet.

That said, Jones has some nice attributes and showed a lot of grit last night. Extremely accurate with the football. His mobility is a weapon that needs to be utilized more. Makes pretty good decisions in the pocket. Outside of that, hard to get a read with the trash OL.

We’ll see how it plays out but I’m leaning towards giving him a fair shake and building around him. Root for a high pick and trade it down for a boatload of picks.
Just watched it again  
Go Terps : 10/23/2020 8:56 pm : link
Perfect pass. Perfect.
I'm clearly underwhelmed by Jones rn  
Mike from SI : 10/23/2020 9:07 pm : link
but to criticize that pass seems a bit much to me. Was it any different than Eli's pass to Manningham? NFL pass catchers are expected to make that play. Brady's pass to Welker in that same Super Bowl could have been a few inches better here or there, but I don't recall him getting serious criticism.

For me the issue is the turnovers. He has the most turnovers through 20 games of any QB ever. Second is Geno. That is really, really bad.
Not all turnovers are equal  
Eric on Li : 10/23/2020 9:17 pm : link
the 2 he had yesterday being cases in point. A tipped pass that could have been caught and 24 seconds left in the game, no timeouts, basically needing the equivalent of a hail mary to get into FG range and have time to clock it.

Last year Jones had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Yesterday PFF had it as his best game on the throws where he had a clean pocket. He engineered 1 of the best 4Q drives with a lead we've seen in years. As Aikman said, when he's given time he consistently makes elite throws. Both TD throws and the throw to Engram being examples of that.

Yesterday looked like Garrett finally loosened the reigns a little bit early in the game and obviously Shepard back helped as well. I would 100% sign for DJ playing to the exact same level as he did yesterday in any game the rest of the season. And if he does this team will simply not be in the Trevor Lawrence discussion for more than one reason.
RE: He's gonna be the guy next year  
CT Charlie : 10/23/2020 9:18 pm : link
In comment 15022179 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And that's ok as long as they understand what he is and is not good at. Garrett (or preferably a replacement for Garrett) has to understand two things about Jones and build the offense around these two things:

1. Jones's mobility is a huge asset. There should be 8-10 planned QB runs each game. A priority this offseason should be acquiring two backup quarterbacks with mobility.

2. Jones is NOT a traditional pocket passer. If he is in the pocket past 2-3 seconds the chances of a successful play go down dramatically. The pass plays have to be designed to be prescribed throws - three prime examples from last night:

- TD to Tate
- big gain to Shepard (Aikman pointed it out - 3 steps and the ball was out)
- Engram drop

On these throws Jones probably identified his target pre-snap. In these situations he is a great passer. But you can't have him scanning for second or third reads. It has to be prescribed. Otherwise he's a liability.

THIS GUY IS NOT ELI. DON'T TRY TO MAKE HIM ELI.

QB runs, RPOs, rollouts - that's what works with Jones.


In 20 games, how many times has Jones had a clean pocket for 3 seconds? Seriously. Once or twice a game? Other QB's enjoy 3 seconds routinely – not every play, but routinely.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I was calling for that too,  
Saquads26 : 10/23/2020 9:20 pm : link
In comment 15022411 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15022288 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15022264 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15022202 Go Terps said:


Quote:


but you've gotta be fair - when called upon to make a game winning play Jones made it. Engram didn't.

He should have caught that ball but I have issue with calling the pass perfect. It was on his fingertips, it would have been a good catch.



This is the NFL. That pass has to be caught 100 times out of 100. That was a perfect throw.

12 inches shorter would have been perfect. I still have the recording in HD. Watch it, it would be a good catch. He was running full speed and it hit his fingers, his palms did not touch it as far as I can tell. Looks like he got most of his fingers on it. NFL players should make that catch. not easily, not quite perfect pass. He had steps on the defender, it did not have to be as far.


Lol you are clueless (as already stated numerous times). It was an absolutely perfect pass. Engram didn’t even extend his arms! 99.99% of NLF players catch that ball...
RE: Not all turnovers are equal  
Mike from SI : 10/23/2020 9:41 pm : link
In comment 15022745 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the 2 he had yesterday being cases in point. A tipped pass that could have been caught and 24 seconds left in the game, no timeouts, basically needing the equivalent of a hail mary to get into FG range and have time to clock it.

Last year Jones had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Yesterday PFF had it as his best game on the throws where he had a clean pocket. He engineered 1 of the best 4Q drives with a lead we've seen in years. As Aikman said, when he's given time he consistently makes elite throws. Both TD throws and the throw to Engram being examples of that.

Yesterday looked like Garrett finally loosened the reigns a little bit early in the game and obviously Shepard back helped as well. I would 100% sign for DJ playing to the exact same level as he did yesterday in any game the rest of the season. And if he does this team will simply not be in the Trevor Lawrence discussion for more than one reason.


No, not all turnovers are equal, but over 20 games having the most turnovers cannot be attributed away to flukishness.
Mike the 20 games benchmark is arbitrary and lacking context  
Eric on Li : 10/23/2020 10:34 pm : link
last year Jones had a very strong season with 1 exception - fumbles. His INT numbers were actually solid for a rookie QB, highlighted by his numbers in the RZ (13 tds and 0 ints). Remember even an all time great in Peyton Manning set the record for most INTs as a rookie. He had 9 more INTs in his first 16 games than Jones has had in 20.

Lumping everything in as "turnovers" obscures things because as much as turnovers have continued to be an issue, he has actually improved his ball security in terms of fumbles. Here were your fumble leaders going into week 7:

5 - Zeke, Carr, Wentz, Burrow
4 - D Jones, Lock, Brady, Minshew, Haskins

Notice 3 of his contemporary 2nd year QBs also on poor teams, a rookie from this year, a HOF'er, and Wentz who has played behind a patchwork OL (and who also put the ball on the ground last night). Certainly not a list anyone wants to be on but also not "worst ever".

This year's issue is that he's thrown more picks and all around he just hasn't been as comfortable or successful in Garrett's scheme as he was in Shurmur's seemingly from day 1. That said I think we are seeing progress and the 2 picks each of the past 2 weeks were not the result of an incorrect decision but lack of execution from both Jones and his teammates. Kaden Smith got blown up by Chase Young and Jones couldn't get enough on the ball to get it out of play. Engram not only didn't secure the catch but he popped it up in the middle of the field. With last night having been Jones' best game throwing the ball all season it's odd to me to dismiss the context and act like Jones is holding them back when I think there's a far better case the opposite is true. If Engram makes 2 catches last night that each hit him in the hands Jones has 0 TO's and the Giants Org has their first win over the Eagles since 2016.
Easy Answer  
giantstock : 10/23/2020 11:04 pm : link
Take Lawrence. It's a no brainer. Looks ta what Russell Wilson can do with a Seattle mediocre defense. Aaron Rodgers generally keeps his teams in it. Brees has been a winner a lot.

Lawrence is projected to be a superstar. You keep him at all costs. QB's are protected by the NFL.

And you can trade Jones if he is any good. He looks okay to me. Trade him then you get multiple picks. And you have cap space.

**********If Lawrence were the QB- the Giants would have 3 or 4 wins this year. He is better than Jones more than likely. That's how much a difference maker a QB is.
Considering..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2020 11:15 pm : link
none of Wilson, Rodgers or Brees was considered to be a Superstar heading into their drafts might not prove the point you are trying to make.

And Rodgers was the only first rounder of the three and he went in the mid-20's.
RE: Considering..  
giantstock : 10/23/2020 11:26 pm : link
In comment 15022803 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
none of Wilson, Rodgers or Brees was considered to be a Superstar heading into their drafts might not prove the point you are trying to make.

And Rodgers was the only first rounder of the three and he went in the mid-20's.


Doesn't make a difference where they were drafted. The fact is Lawrence is considered to be like them as a pro. A superstar. You are drafting what nearly all experts will consider a superstar similar to Luck. Who are we ot argue someone considered that great who has produced in big games vs Bama and Ohio State?

If projections at end of college season suggest he is not all that - then sure bypass him. But I don't believe I should fight the vast majority that will probably claim he is a probable superstar.

I just want to reiterate - I do NOT dislike Jones.
Hard to believe  
Black_Flag : 10/24/2020 2:06 am : link
I think we just got so used to general suckiness it is hard to take a step back and see the Forrest .

Sorry but Jones has to go. The team is not competitive and it mostly is on him.

Go back & watch last years dolphin game when Eli played. Same line ,same supporting cast.

He makes that same throw to Golden Tate like it was nothing. Literally the same throw that got me thinking “we’re onto something “ last night watching the game , We are not. i fell into the trap too thinking jones is the goods after the Tate touchdown... were so used to mediocre play from jones that when he does something good it’s supposed to be a big deal.

I threw a lot of picks but like typical Eli he also threw deep a lot. / td’s.They were up 2 scores ; scored 30 + points. That a team that would be playoff bound if not for fitz late start. Not some one win division team .
I say last night's game showed me more than enough  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/24/2020 2:51 am : link
to want to build around him. Kid threw several beautiful passes under duress, to all parts of the field. Showed toughness, resiliency, excellent athleticism.

That L wasn't on him. The W should have been, and he damn near did it without help.

Other teams' mediocre players make key plays. Some of the Giants' "stars" simply don't, not at key junctures.

Jones can't throw the ball and then catch it himself.

Maybe it's impetuous to think one can make a judgement based on one game. Hell it probably is, but its not like the kid hasn't flashed before.

Thin slice analysis: Jones is the real deal.

Also, listened to Jordan Ranaan's pre game pod with two Eagles ESPN guys. One of the Eagles' beats, maybe both of them, said they made multiple calls around the league to "sources they trust" to get the skinny on Jones. Bottom line, Jones is very highly thought of throughout the league. Giants (ie, DG) did not err selecting Jones at 6... He's got it all.
I definitely believe in Jones  
jpkmets : 10/24/2020 3:13 am : link
For the rest of the season I just want him to have shep/Tate/Slayton all healthy. They aren’t a great unit, bottom third of the league I think. But, they are competent enough that Jones will be able to work 9n things and progress with three decent pros to work with.

Unfortunately, he has yet to play one game with a truly explosive receiving threat. We must, perhaps above all our other glaring needs, get some explosive speed on the outside.
RE: I definitely believe in Jones  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/24/2020 4:37 am : link
In comment 15022851 jpkmets said:
Quote:
For the rest of the season I just want him to have shep/Tate/Slayton all healthy. They aren’t a great unit, bottom third of the league I think. But, they are competent enough that Jones will be able to work 9n things and progress with three decent pros to work with.

Unfortunately, he has yet to play one game with a truly explosive receiving threat. We must, perhaps above all our other glaring needs, get some explosive speed on the outside.


Honestly I think you are dead wrong about what Jones needs at WR (and TE too). He needs a couple of guys that really CATCH the ball 1) reliably and 2) win in contested ball situations well better than 50%.

Engram is a "burner" himself... But he doesn't catch reliably, let alone win contested balls. DJ would be better served byguys like Kevin Boss or Greg Ballard than Engram.
If you ask me, we win easy if Engram wasn't so "bad hands" and such  
SGMen : 10/24/2020 6:28 am : link
D. Jones, in my humble opinion, is a very good QB who is learning a new system still (lack of off-season); who has limited talent at skill positions around him; and, has very limited time to throw with a clean pocket or to rely on a run game due to a poor OL.

My position has been that during the bye-week, the coaches and staff will work with the WHOLE team to work out the kinks and to "coach up" the young guys who need it.

I am going to judge Jones "post-bye week" for mainly turnovers. I believe post-bye we go with youth mostly:

Thomas-Hernandez-Gates-Lemiuex-Peartt - those five bodies will hopefully pave the way for 2021...
RE: He's gonna be the guy next year  
Black_Flag : 10/24/2020 9:41 am : link
In comment 15022179 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And that's ok as long as they understand what he is and is not good at. Garrett (or preferably a replacement for Garrett) has to understand two things about Jones and build the offense around these two things:

1. Jones's mobility is a huge asset. There should be 8-10 planned QB runs each game. A priority this offseason should be acquiring two backup quarterbacks with mobility.

2. Jones is NOT a traditional pocket passer. If he is in the pocket past 2-3 seconds the chances of a successful play go down dramatically. The pass plays have to be designed to be prescribed throws - three prime examples from last night:

- TD to Tate
- big gain to Shepard (Aikman pointed it out - 3 steps and the ball was out)
- Engram drop

On these throws Jones probably identified his target pre-snap. In these situations he is a great passer. But you can't have him scanning for second or third reads. It has to be prescribed. Otherwise he's a liability.

THIS GUY IS NOT ELI. DON'T TRY TO MAKE HIM ELI.

QB runs, RPOs, rollouts - that's what works with Jones.


No one except some idiot journalists and fans making him out to be Eli.
You don’t think it is weird that you are calling for an NFL qb to basically just continue with college level qb play?

College qbs do that sort of thing because ...

A. They can’t throw
B. He rules are different

Constantly rolling out cuts half the field ... you run it once is awhile .

The element of surprise works to get dj big yards on qb runs.

Do it often enough and defenses will catch on quick

I
Eli was the league leader in interceptions...  
EricJ : 10/24/2020 9:46 am : link
AFTER he won to SB MVPs...

Agree with the earlier post that most people have no idea what they are watching on TV
People are so impatient with QB. Learning how to quickly progress  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/24/2020 9:50 am : link
through your reads takes TIME. Eli Manning didn't get to a sufficient point until his 3rd year, but you could see it with him just a tick slow. DJ has a bad tendency to trust his pre-snap read and then stick with number 1 too long. Hopefully, Garrett can fix this out of him. And yes it's something you need to learn how to do, there still hasn't been a Superbowl winner who hasn't been able to beat you from the pocket. If contain rush is all it needs to take to beat a QB, all good teams are capable of doing this.
RE: Eli was the league leader in interceptions...  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/24/2020 9:51 am : link
In comment 15022951 EricJ said:
Quote:
AFTER he won to SB MVPs...

Agree with the earlier post that most people have no idea what they are watching on TV


Anyone with a half a brain saw that DJ outplayed Wentz Thursday and just look at who had the better stat line. Kinda tells you what stats mean in football, at least traditional ones.
On that big incompletion, I thought Engram’s mistake was  
cosmicj : 10/24/2020 10:16 am : link
Not to adjust his route slightly to the left. It’s actually a shorter distance to where he should have been than where he actually was — so Engram misjudged the trajectory. I think he should have made the catch anyway, but the mistake came in the route running.
RE: RE: I definitely believe in Jones  
jpkmets : 10/24/2020 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15022863 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 15022851 jpkmets said:


Quote:


For the rest of the season I just want him to have shep/Tate/Slayton all healthy. They aren’t a great unit, bottom third of the league I think. But, they are competent enough that Jones will be able to work 9n things and progress with three decent pros to work with.

Unfortunately, he has yet to play one game with a truly explosive receiving threat. We must, perhaps above all our other glaring needs, get some explosive speed on the outside.



Honestly I think you are dead wrong about what Jones needs at WR (and TE too). He needs a couple of guys that really CATCH the ball 1) reliably and 2) win in contested ball situations well better than 50%.

Engram is a "burner" himself... But he doesn't catch reliably, let alone win contested balls. DJ would be better served byguys like Kevin Boss or Greg Ballard than Engram.


That’s a good point. I certainly agree that those are important elements for Jones’ new receivers. I think hands and fight are minimum requirements for starting NFL WR’s. That’s why shephard’s return is big. He displays those “floor” traits better than anyone else we have

However, he needs someone who can credibly stretch the field and, at least occasionally, get separation. It would allow Jones a respite from trying to put throws into minimal windows. It would also be the first time Jones has a WR that demands game planning and will open up other areas.

Engram May be a “burner” compared to other TE’S, but even the fastest TE’s are not vertical threats. Right now we have mostly slow-ish receivers who run similar routes and rarely create an easy play for the QB. We need to find Jones a legitimate top 15 NFL wideout.
Jones is no way the problem  
giantstock : 10/24/2020 4:19 pm : link
Whether he is ultimately "average" (which isn't good enough to aspire to be) or just "pretty good" or "good" or "very good" is yet to be known. But he won't be a superstar.

So as long as he is good -- the Giants desperately need to ensure he doesn't take the beating like he's ben taking.

SO ensure you get him adequate protection -- he is young and young kids sometimes have way too much bravado.

And most importantly he needs at least one of a big time tall receiver OR legit stud big tight end. Would love to have both but right now this team has neither.
-----------
I'm very happy so far of the coaching. OFC I'm strictly speaking as a Giants fan - I think Peterson and Rivera are nuts. And I think McCarthy is now incompetent. Again these are highly successful coaches - so I'm only saying it as a fan and realize it doesn't mean much. It's just right now I'm happy with what I see from Judge. I think if he gets talent - he won't get overwhelmed by opposing coaches even if I'm wrong for example about the others in our division. But even the nuts coaches can do very well.
more revision history on Eli  
Black_Flag : 10/24/2020 9:07 pm : link
Eli threw a lot of interceptions pretty much all the time. He also threw 40 yard passes all the time. some were touchdowns , big gains and even incomplete and interceptions.

Eli did not take no 3 years to do anything. He was rocking and rolling by year 2. Moreover he had his 2nd best year in 2007. And it was a year that was one for the history books; in if 2011 never happened. Let's face it Eli was a pretty rare commodity. He beat up a pretty decent Miami Dolphins team last year at nearly 40 years old.
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