According to NFL.com, he played in 13 games last year, and he has started all 7 games this year. So he has played in ~20 games and has 9 games left this year. In other words, we have seen 2/3 of his games by the end of this year.
What do we need to see in his final 1/3 of games? I feel if his final 1/3 of games are similar to the first 2/3, we move on IF we can get Lawrence or Fields. I'd want to see a pretty marked improvement, especially in turnovers, over the final 9 games to stick with him.
I understand that he's playing behind a shit OL and with crummy skill players, but truly good QBs do more with less.
What say you?
Yeh I'm still waiting on this mythical QB that lit it up on a talent deficient offense in his 2nd year.
More designed runs, RPOs, etc. are certainly one way to see more plays like that 80 yard run. Before someone misinterprets that as thinking I expect an 80 yard run every week...no. I'm saying it would be nice to see us make better use of his legs on a consistent basis. He has also shown a great ability to make some very difficult deep throws, which is difficult for us to try to replicate consistently when we can't protect.
On the other hand, almost every game he has played he's turned the ball over at least once. Almost every game he's played he's fumbled. These continue to be issues. Every week he has some throws like the one that just slipped out of his hand last night.
So, if he continues to play like he has for the rest of the season AND we have a shot at Lawrence or Fields, I think you have to be willing to move on. He still very well may be a QB that sees overall success in this league. He certainly is talented and he isn't terrible overall. But, so far, he also hasn't shown himself to be that captivating QB who will put a team on his shoulders and win games on his own. I recognize that is asking a lot of a QB on this team with this roster. But, at this stage, I think it is more a given that he will have a crucial turnover than a positive game changing play.
If the Giants play well enough to fall out of the top 2 or 3 spots where those 2 QBs specifically are gone, then looking to replace him now is probably not the right move. But, if not, it is probably at least in part due to his play and it would be very difficult to turn down 2 QBs with much higher pedigrees and ceilings at this point. To me, the only alternative would be to trade down from one of those spots, collecting more picks.
However, the Giants haven't been doing him any help. As OP mentioned, he is playing behind a poor offensive line. In fact, since starting he's been pressured more then any other QB in the league. He is also playing in an offense with terrible playing calling and horrible route concepts. His receivers are rarely open. The current offense isn't playing to his strengths and are instead exposing his weaknesses. Dude is legit fast, yet maybe there's 2 designed runs a game. The offensive line is struggling to protect, but they are just keeping him in the pocket instead of rolling him out. They should also be encouraging him to take off and run a lot more when the pocket collapses.
If we keep the same offense in place for next year and hope that there's going to be some massive improvement because we bring in a #1 WR, I think that's a mistake. If we try to craft an offense that plays to his strengths, I'd be very interested to see how that plays out next year.
Let’s put it this way....
Lamar Jackson was the league MVP. Would he still be the Lamar Jackson MVP player you know if he was drafted by us? Even close?
Personally, at the moment, I think we have to run to the podium to take Lawrence if we get #1 overall. You can't pass on a super franchise QB prospect unless you already have one in the bag, and if we get #1, then we won't be able to say that about Jones. If we're in #2 and Fields plays good enough to be a true 1A at the top of the draft, the same analysis would apply.
Other than that, I've seen enough flashes from Jones that I'd give him a 3rd year and try to improve other areas of the team. Put differently, Jones has flashed enough based on what I've seen to earn a third year absent the Giants having a chance to an elite franchise QB prospect.
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I don’t see another QB in this league who could come to the Giants with this roster and make us a team over .400 winning percentage and yes that includes PM, LJ, RW AR, TB etc.
Let’s put it this way....
Lamar Jackson was the league MVP. Would he still be the Lamar Jackson MVP player you know if he was drafted by us? Even close?
Lamar Jackson is a running back playing qb, yes i think he could do what he does anywhere, would he win at the rate he is winning, i dont think so
I don't know about the Dolphins OL but Fitzpatrick's skill players are on par with the Giants.
Gardner Minshew's numbers are way better than Jones'.
I hope that Jones turns it around but I'm not sticking with a guy being outplayed by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Gardner Minshew.
When Engram dropped that ball, knew it was over. Seen to many Giant mishaps especially vs the Eagles turning the tide.
The Giants / Mara Tech will not draft a QB in the first round next season. Its not our way. A reach for them would be convert Engram to a WR, trade down and draft a TE, or another WR.
I don't know about the Dolphins OL but Fitzpatrick's skill players are on par with the Giants.
Gardner Minshew's numbers are way better than Jones'.
I hope that Jones turns it around but I'm not sticking with a guy being outplayed by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Gardner Minshew.
Well, all I can tell you is Wentz was a whole... WHOLE lot more comfy behind his OL than Jones was behind ours last night. Jones was hit/rushed/hurried and never had one chance to step up in the pocket on every/any offensive play that I watched. Not sure how people don't see that.
That "record" was previously held by Geno Smith (32)
Link - ( New Window )
More designed runs, RPOs, etc. are certainly one way to see more plays like that 80 yard run. Before someone misinterprets that as thinking I expect an 80 yard run every week...no. I'm saying it would be nice to see us make better use of his legs on a consistent basis. He has also shown a great ability to make some very difficult deep throws, which is difficult for us to try to replicate consistently when we can't protect.
On the other hand, almost every game he has played he's turned the ball over at least once. Almost every game he's played he's fumbled. These continue to be issues. Every week he has some throws like the one that just slipped out of his hand last night.
So, if he continues to play like he has for the rest of the season AND we have a shot at Lawrence or Fields, I think you have to be willing to move on. He still very well may be a QB that sees overall success in this league. He certainly is talented and he isn't terrible overall. But, so far, he also hasn't shown himself to be that captivating QB who will put a team on his shoulders and win games on his own. I recognize that is asking a lot of a QB on this team with this roster. But, at this stage, I think it is more a given that he will have a crucial turnover than a positive game changing play.
If the Giants play well enough to fall out of the top 2 or 3 spots where those 2 QBs specifically are gone, then looking to replace him now is probably not the right move. But, if not, it is probably at least in part due to his play and it would be very difficult to turn down 2 QBs with much higher pedigrees and ceilings at this point. To me, the only alternative would be to trade down from one of those spots, collecting more picks.
+1 well said
This year, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Gardner Minshew have outplayed Jones with comparable surrounding players.
I like DJ, but he has a tendency to trust his pre snap reads too much. The offense can't be creative. You need talent to be creative and we can't hang our hat on either our skill players or oline. In fact on the scouts feed last night they were very complimentary of Garrett's game plan. Said that TD was Shephard was all scheme. People just don't want to face the fact our talent on offense fucking sucks. It sucks and I'm not sure there's answers here in the short term. Maybe Peart becomes a starting caliber tackle.
I agree with this. DJ has some pretty tantalizing tools. He has some things to work on, things that not every QB figures out, so there is still a bust factor possible, but unless he totally shits the bed the rest of the year, he is the starter game 1 of 2021.
That said, unless we have a shot at getting Lawrence, but I don't think that will happen.
Its a bit maddening really, but I do think he's earned the right to play next year with some better tools.
We have bigger, more immediate holes to fill than at QB. If he doesn't play more consistently by 22-23, then you cut bait.
Personally, at the moment, I think we have to run to the podium to take Lawrence if we get #1 overall. You can't pass on a super franchise QB prospect unless you already have one in the bag, and if we get #1, then we won't be able to say that about Jones. If we're in #2 and Fields plays good enough to be a true 1A at the top of the draft, the same analysis would apply.
Other than that, I've seen enough flashes from Jones that I'd give him a 3rd year and try to improve other areas of the team. Put differently, Jones has flashed enough based on what I've seen to earn a third year absent the Giants having a chance to an elite franchise QB prospect.
Exactly. You said it better than I did.
In draft. Of course we only have 5 picks thanks to esteemed DG
2 wr and a TE
Heck. I would draft a RO and TE too
We don’t know if Barkley will recover and if he isn’t 97%, I am 50/50 on extending him
Gallman ran hard, if saquon ever saw those holes he would take it to the house
He sure didn’t when he was playing
What pocket? There actually has to be a pocket for a QB to have Pocket presence.
I would draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but enough with this horseshit about mythical QBs who in their second seasons were elevating trash rosters. Enough already.
Additionally, Barkley will be back next year, and I expect them to either add a playmaking WR in FA, or in the top 3 rounds of the draft. Between hopefully an improved OL, and playmakers such as Barkley, WR addition, Slayton, and Shephard, we see some marked improvement.
With that next year, it will be a key year for Jones. If he continues to have the turnover issues, the Giants may have to re-evaluate the position. However, while some is his fault, a lot of his turnover issues are due to poor OL play. I would expect that improved OL play would alleviate some of those issues.
Exactly, and I said this on a thread about a week ago. Of course then I got blasted with "but Fields is different". How do we know that? Wasn't Haskins different too? What about Pryor, Troy Smith, JT Barrett, and Cardale Jones? Hell the gambleholic Schlichter may be their best QB. They are so loaded elsewhere a lot of kids could play QB for them. I get the feeling their recruiting looks for top talent in other places, and just gets more role players for QB
If by the end of next year, Jones is still the same guy in terms of turnovers and mistakes, the 2022 draft may very well be loaded with qb talent.
What's critical here is evaluating Jones before you'd give him a second contract. That will likely fall to Judge and whatever GM is paired with him.
Sure it had some heat on it but good receivers catch that ball 9 out of 10 times.EE knows he should have caught that ball.I feel that he is learning from his mistakes. Last night under extreme pressure he threw the ball out of bounds.
On several of his sacks, I noticed he held onto the ball with both hands.On his fumble he was running to his left away from pressure and the ball was held down low hence the fumble. That's on DJ but I feel that can be a coaching and learning experience.
I for one am not ready to give up on DJ. I feel that he has the talent to play in this league. He is a tough kid taking alot of hits. He also appears to have good leadership abilities and a good presence in the huddle.
He definitely needs to work on his timing in the pocket.
I like his accuracy throwing the ball. We got 9 games to go this year and my hope for the future is that DJ continues to show improvement on his timing and ball security.He looks to be a very coachable player.
I don't know about the Dolphins OL but Fitzpatrick's skill players are on par with the Giants.
Gardner Minshew's numbers are way better than Jones'.
I hope that Jones turns it around but I'm not sticking with a guy being outplayed by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Gardner Minshew.
Wentz has played with the same system and coach for 3 years! Wentz's has been under fore for poor play. Jones out played wentz. Don't let stats fool you.
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Name some...
This year, Carson Wentz, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Gardner Minshew have outplayed Jones with comparable surrounding players.
You can't be that stupid! All have been in the same system for at least 2 seasons.. Jags receivers would all be an upgrade, Phins receivers Williams and Parker would stars with Jones and Eagles Te's and Fulgram would be huge upgrades..
1. Jones's mobility is a huge asset. There should be 8-10 planned QB runs each game. A priority this offseason should be acquiring two backup quarterbacks with mobility.
2. Jones is NOT a traditional pocket passer. If he is in the pocket past 2-3 seconds the chances of a successful play go down dramatically. The pass plays have to be designed to be prescribed throws - three prime examples from last night:
- TD to Tate
- big gain to Shepard (Aikman pointed it out - 3 steps and the ball was out)
- Engram drop
On these throws Jones probably identified his target pre-snap. In these situations he is a great passer. But you can't have him scanning for second or third reads. It has to be prescribed. Otherwise he's a liability.
THIS GUY IS NOT ELI. DON'T TRY TO MAKE HIM ELI.
QB runs, RPOs, rollouts - that's what works with Jones.
1. Jones's mobility is a huge asset. There should be 8-10 planned QB runs each game. A priority this offseason should be acquiring two backup quarterbacks with mobility.
2. Jones is NOT a traditional pocket passer. If he is in the pocket past 2-3 seconds the chances of a successful play go down dramatically. The pass plays have to be designed to be prescribed throws - three prime examples from last night:
- TD to Tate
- big gain to Shepard (Aikman pointed it out - 3 steps and the ball was out)
- Engram drop
On these throws Jones probably identified his target pre-snap. In these situations he is a great passer. But you can't have him scanning for second or third reads. It has to be prescribed. Otherwise he's a liability.
THIS GUY IS NOT ELI. DON'T TRY TO MAKE HIM ELI.
QB runs, RPOs, rollouts - that's what works with Jones.
Jones has ZERO pocket presence. He also is awful at reading pre snap defenses and setting the protection. He has no idea where the rush is coming from and no pocket awareness to avoid the rush which causes A LOT of fumbles a deadly combo.
He is clearly not close to an elite franchise carrying QB. But he has skills/assets that if used correctly on a talented team would make that team a contender. Put him behind the 2017-2019 Dallas OL with Elliot at RB and the NFL media would be anointing him the next Staubach but he's really the next Alex Smith.
If KC Alex Smith is good enough for you Jones is your guy.
Jones has ZERO pocket presence. He also is awful at reading pre snap defenses and setting the protection. He has no idea where the rush is coming from and no pocket awareness to avoid the rush which causes A LOT of fumbles a deadly combo.
He is clearly not close to an elite franchise carrying QB. But he has skills/assets that if used correctly on a talented team would make that team a contender. Put him behind the 2017-2019 Dallas OL with Elliot at RB and the NFL media would be anointing him the next Staubach but he's really the next Alex Smith.
If KC Alex Smith is good enough for you Jones is your guy.
That's a great point, and we saw that KC Alex Smith on a talented team wasn't good enough to put the Chiefs over the top, it took Mahomes unique skill set and talents to complete the journey.
I do think Jones has some more physical ability than Smith, but we'll certainly learn more over the next 9 games and the 2021 season.
I see no way they will implement a third offensive system in 3 years for Jones. I would really be surprised. Continuity will be the goal. I don’t think Garrett is awful, I think he’s called better games since Dallas, but as Terps mentioned the offense still needs to be geared more towards Jones.