Another Jones thread but maybe some perspective ...

but Gardner Minshew has played pretty fucking well, far better than DJ. I think his WR's are better, but it's not like he has Jerry Rice.

BBI'ers still on lusting after every other QB that lives on the planet after the game he had last night...amazing!

In comment 15022113 Section331 said:

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but Gardner Minshew has played pretty fucking well, far better than DJ. I think his WR's are better, but it's not like he has Jerry Rice.

He also plays in a small market with a very solid offensive line.

But come on, we'd all take Lamar Jackson in a second. He's a better passer and runner than Jones.

I'd take Watson too.

But your general point still stands. As other said in one of the many DJ threads, he's not the issue.

the way you created categories makes it sound like there are only a handful of QBs more desirable than DJ.

In comment 15022121 armstead98 said:

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But come on, we'd all take Lamar Jackson in a second. He's a better passer and runner than Jones. I'd take Watson too. But your general point still stands. As other said in one of the many DJ threads, he's not the issue.

Lamar is a great all around athlete with outstanding running ability and a rocket arm ... but I’m not yet there on him as a full range QB. As to Watson, he’s not looking as good without DeAndre to throw to, and he’s very expensive. We’re getting into subjectivity now but I see your point.

but i want no parts of Janeane Garofalo.

In comment 15022127 markky said:

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the way you created categories makes it sound like there are only a handful of QBs more desirable than DJ.

Yes ..l that’s my point exactly.

Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Murray, Watson, Allen, Wentz, Jackson, Herbert, Tannehill, and maybe Tua for Jones. Dak too if he’s recovered. That still puts Jones in the top 1/3-ish of the league.

all need to be in the yes, but not available category

Jones is going to take his lumps playing with this roster and a new system. But there's been stretches where you see what the dude will actually be able to dod on a *consistent* basis once we get more playmaker help and OL gets better.

If Engram catches that ball we are having a very different discussion about Jones today. I've been pounding the drum for the second half of this season as the real indicator of how he is progressing, considering the lack of reps in the new system. And...last night, we had a glimpse that he's coming on. The question is, can he rise above the poor OL and lack of playmakers in his second season as a QB...that's tough to do for anyone.

If we compare Watson and Lamar to Daniel Jones. Clearly Yes, but unavailable.

The Tate throw, the long run, the 97 yard drive...again these are all things that we've seen clearly that he can do. He's in year 2...completely new staff, young roster without Barkley and WRs that can stretch the field aside from Slayton, and a TE that continually comes up small.

The key will be if he can just continue to learn from this shit and just rise above it eventually. "Eventually" needs to start happening soon.

Lawerence.

IF the Jets fire Gase and they win a couple games and the Giants have the first pick - they HAVE to take Lawerence.

It's a lock.

I may not want Cousins, Allen, or Carr but they're better NFL QBs than Danny Dimes.

I get Giants fans need to like their guy but DJ has been pretty shitty overall this year. 5 TD passes in 7 games, 4 games under 200 yards passing, no games with 300 yards passing, and a shit ton of turnovers. Fair comparisons with those numbers are Haskins, Darnold, and Trubisky. The only thing making DJ decent is his running ability.

Giants fans should try being objective instead of propping up, and making excuses for, a QB that isn't playing very well.

we aren't taking Trevor Lawrence, even if we have the 1st pick.

It's becoming clearer by the day that the problems on this roster go way beyond the QB, in fact he's one of the only bright spots.

If for some reason we do get the 1st pick, which I don't think there's a strong chance of that happening, they could get a king's ransom for that pick and set the roster up for sustained success with so much capital moving forward.

I think DJ has the potential to be a Ryan Tannehill type guy at best. Good QB in the right spot - this ain't it.

A new GM has no allegiance to stick with DJ and won't let a seemingly once in a generation type talent like Lawerence get away.

If the Giants keep DG and/or replace him internally - I think they keep the #1 pick and draft a non-QB.

the issue is that the opinion of Jones around league circles is much, much higher than the NYG fan base. The fan base can't be patient.

the DJ is a better QB than the NYG fan base is giving him credit for - that's awesome - the NYG will get more for him in a trade.

I DON'T think that many NFL scouts would argue that DJ is a better prospect than Lawerence.

In comment 15022163 ryanmkeane said:

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we aren't taking Trevor Lawrence, even if we have the 1st pick. It's becoming clearer by the day that the problems on this roster go way beyond the QB, in fact he's one of the only bright spots. If for some reason we do get the 1st pick, which I don't think there's a strong chance of that happening, they could get a king's ransom for that pick and set the roster up for sustained success with so much capital moving forward.

What guarantee do you have of that? And who is doing the picking , resume Dave? um no. Jones played a good game. The first one I have seen with traces of his former self from last year. He has not played well overall this year.

In comment 15022121 armstead98 said:

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But come on, we'd all take Lamar Jackson in a second. He's a better passer and runner than Jones. I'd take Watson too. But your general point still stands. As other said in one of the many DJ threads, he's not the issue.

Get on the phone as soon as the season ends and offer Ravens GM DaCosta Jones for Lamarr Jackson straight up.

My bet is DaCosta says yes befire you finish the qualifier "straight up."

On no planet in this galaxy is Lamar Jackson Jones' equal as a passer, and therefore as a QB.

Watch some games. And I like Jackson. But after last night I like Jones more.

In comment 15022178 Dnew15 said:

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I think DJ has the potential to be a Ryan Tannehill type guy at best. Good QB in the right spot - this ain't it. A new GM has no allegiance to stick with DJ and won't let a seemingly once in a generation type talent like Lawerence get away. If the Giants keep DG and/or replace him internally - I think they keep the #1 pick and draft a non-QB.

This is hardly scientific, but at any given moment in my 35+ years of watching football, there's only maybe 2-3 QBs who I believed can truly transcend the talent around them and succeed without good coaching and supporting cast; and much as I loved Eli Manning and Phil Simms, neither of them were that kind of player -- but they won a lot of games (and Championships).

If the Giants believe Trevor Lawrence IS that kind of player, and they have the chance to draft him, then yes you draft him. But just because he's supposed to be the first overall pick doesn't make him that kind of generational talent. And I think the OP's point (which I agree with) is that of the QBs the Giants could actually replace Jones with, or could have had instead of Jones, the Giants did just fine.

Jones could still bust, but if you watched the game last night you were (yet again) reminded he's got all the tools needed. Just a question of whether or not he can put them together or not.

I need to see this entire year before I answer that question. If he could show a better feel for the rush I would be more confident. I am concerned he will be top half of the league QB but when we finally go the playoffs against good pass rushes, he will fumble when pressured. Turnovers are the most predictive stat for W/Ls.

In comment 15022113 Section331 said:

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but Gardner Minshew has played pretty fucking well, far better than DJ. I think his WR's are better, but it's not like he has Jerry Rice.

No and nope.. Dear god do you know anything more than just stats? Most of his stats have been in garbage time.. Jones would be putting up much bigger numbers with their WR's. You lost all credibility but picking Minshew as your example.

and what I've seen - Lawerence IS that good.

I'm no expert on this stuff - but I think most people are in that boat.

Of course, plenty of "sure fire, greatest of all-time" have missed.

But I think a lot of folks think that Lawerence is that guy.

And if I'm the Giants, and I have the opportunity to pick that guy - I'm going to do it.

In comment 15022192 dschwarz in westchester said:

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In comment 15022178 Dnew15 said: Quote: I think DJ has the potential to be a Ryan Tannehill type guy at best. Good QB in the right spot - this ain't it. A new GM has no allegiance to stick with DJ and won't let a seemingly once in a generation type talent like Lawerence get away. If the Giants keep DG and/or replace him internally - I think they keep the #1 pick and draft a non-QB. This is hardly scientific, but at any given moment in my 35+ years of watching football, there's only maybe 2-3 QBs who I believed can truly transcend the talent around them and succeed without good coaching and supporting cast; and much as I loved Eli Manning and Phil Simms, neither of them were that kind of player -- but they won a lot of games (and Championships). If the Giants believe Trevor Lawrence IS that kind of player, and they have the chance to draft him, then yes you draft him. But just because he's supposed to be the first overall pick doesn't make him that kind of generational talent. And I think the OP's point (which I agree with) is that of the QBs the Giants could actually replace Jones with, or could have had instead of Jones, the Giants did just fine. Jones could still bust, but if you watched the game last night you were (yet again) reminded he's got all the tools needed. Just a question of whether or not he can put them together or not.

there is a big difference between Eli Manning and Phil Simms. Simms has a superbowl ring by watching Jeff Hostettler win at a super bowl. Do you think they win the Super bowls with Eli on the bench? hell no!

Eli not a person who makes people better around him? I mean that is not what I remember from the 2007 and '11 seasons. A lot of that was very much Eli carrying a rather average to above average team.

In comment 15022191 BlueLou'sBack said:

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In comment 15022121 armstead98 said: Quote: But come on, we'd all take Lamar Jackson in a second. He's a better passer and runner than Jones. I'd take Watson too. But your general point still stands. As other said in one of the many DJ threads, he's not the issue. Get on the phone as soon as the season ends and offer Ravens GM DaCosta Jones for Lamarr Jackson straight up. My bet is DaCosta says yes befire you finish the qualifier "straight up." On no planet in this galaxy is Lamar Jackson Jones' equal as a passer, and therefore as a QB. Watch some games. And I like Jackson. But after last night I like Jones more.

you are just a homer. There is nobody you can find that is not a Ginats fan that would trade Lamar for Jones. Get a grip.

In comment 15022191 BlueLou'sBack said:

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Get on the phone as soon as the season ends and offer Ravens GM DaCosta Jones for Lamarr Jackson straight up. My bet is DaCosta says yes befire you finish the qualifier "straight up." On no planet in this galaxy is Lamar Jackson Jones' equal as a passer, and therefore as a QB. Watch some games. And I like Jackson. But after last night I like Jones more.

You've lost your mind. DaCosta would laugh the Giants off the phone. Come on, they're going to trade the reigning MVP for a struggling QB on a bad team? He'd be run out of Baltimore on a rail.

In comment 15022191 BlueLou'sBack said:

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In comment 15022121 armstead98 said: Quote: But come on, we'd all take Lamar Jackson in a second. He's a better passer and runner than Jones. I'd take Watson too. But your general point still stands. As other said in one of the many DJ threads, he's not the issue. Get on the phone as soon as the season ends and offer Ravens GM DaCosta Jones for Lamarr Jackson straight up. My bet is DaCosta says yes befire you finish the qualifier "straight up." On no planet in this galaxy is Lamar Jackson Jones' equal as a passer, and therefore as a QB. Watch some games. And I like Jackson. But after last night I like Jones more.

Is this serious? You think the Ravens would trade Lamar Jackson for Daniel Jones??? That is absurd.

Maybe while they are on the phone we can add Engram for Andrews? I mean since DeCosta is clearly on crack...

In comment 15022119 Jay on the Island said:

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In comment 15022113 Section331 said: Quote: but Gardner Minshew has played pretty fucking well, far better than DJ. I think his WR's are better, but it's not like he has Jerry Rice. He also plays in a small market with a very solid offensive line.

I'm not sure why the market matters, but FTR, Minshew has been sacked 3 fewer times than Jones in one less game. We're not talking the '74 Steelers OL here.

and I won't put Jones close to Jackson who has won an MVP. That said, I do think there are still some legit concerns about Jackson's passing ability. I love watching him, but I don't know that he will ever be in the Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers category.

Two playoff games. Barely more than 50% accuracy and 5 turnovers. While a small sample size, it is certainly concerning and does raise a question as to whether his playing style is translatable to championship football. His style is also not one that is good from playing behind at all.

In comment 15022256 KDavies said:

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and I won't put Jones close to Jackson who has won an MVP. That said, I do think there are still some legit concerns about Jackson's passing ability. I love watching him, but I don't know that he will ever be in the Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers category. Two playoff games. Barely more than 50% accuracy and 5 turnovers. While a small sample size, it is certainly concerning and does raise a question as to whether his playing style is translatable to championship football. His style is also not one that is good from playing behind at all.

That’s a perfect summary I think.

much as who would be better for the NYG right now. Considering salary, and what we still need to sign to get better; Age, we’re rebuilding; Ability to deal with a new coach, average receivers, little running game and a young OL; and ability to handle the NY pressure... These are all very real things DJ is facing right now.

should be for the other 31 teams how many would give up their current QB or QB situation (someone like the Jets knowing they likely have a QB reset coming up in the 2021 draft) for Jones.

My answer, beginning with the worst teams:

NYJ: no, likely get their QB in the 2021 draft
NYG: N/A
WAS: depends where they finish for 2021 draft, but yes, would likely replace Haskins with Jones
ATL: no
JAX: no, some might say yes, but Minshew has been similar to Jones
MIN: too much invested in Cousins
MIA: no
LAC: no
CIN: no
DAL: no, but depends on Dak, if they don't re-sign Dak, possibly but for now no
DET: possibly but Stafford under contract 2 more years, so unlikely because they'd have to extend Jones then too
NEW: Possibly, but it's Jones vs Stidham
DEN: probably not
MIA: no
CAR: no
SF: no
NO: definitely not for 2020, and probably not beyond, but possibly post Brees if they don't give Hill the job
LV: no
PHI: no
CLE: no
TAM: no
IND: not for 2020, but maybe post Rivers
JAX: see above, no
BUF: no
ARI: no
GB: no
KC: no
BALT: no
CHI: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020
PIT: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020
NYJ: see above
TEN: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020

So, in summary only 1 team would take Jones over their 2020 QB situation, Washington, and maybe a handful would consider it going forward, but most probably say no given Jones has just one year after next remaining on his rookie deal.

In comment 15022284 pjcas18 said:

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should be for the other 31 teams how many would give up their current QB or QB situation (someone like the Jets knowing they likely have a QB reset coming up in the 2021 draft) for Jones. My answer, beginning with the worst teams: NYJ: no, likely get their QB in the 2021 draft NYG: N/A WAS: depends where they finish for 2021 draft, but yes, would likely replace Haskins with Jones ATL: no JAX: no, some might say yes, but Minshew has been similar to Jones MIN: too much invested in Cousins MIA: no LAC: no CIN: no DAL: no, but depends on Dak, if they don't re-sign Dak, possibly but for now no DET: possibly but Stafford under contract 2 more years, so unlikely because they'd have to extend Jones then too NEW: Possibly, but it's Jones vs Stidham DEN: probably not MIA: no CAR: no SF: no NO: definitely not for 2020, and probably not beyond, but possibly post Brees if they don't give Hill the job LV: no PHI: no CLE: no TAM: no IND: not for 2020, but maybe post Rivers JAX: see above, no BUF: no ARI: no GB: no KC: no BALT: no CHI: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 PIT: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 NYJ: see above TEN: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 So, in summary only 1 team would take Jones over their 2020 QB situation, Washington, and maybe a handful would consider it going forward, but most probably say no given Jones has just one year after next remaining on his rookie deal.

I generally agree with this assessment except.

NE: wouldn't dump Cam for Jones, not sure re: Stidham
DET: no
MINN: not this year but yes next year if they dont land a top-3 QB in draft
PITT: no
CHI: maybe
ten: no

I don't think Giants fans on this board understand how others view Jones. Generally he is viewed as a work in progress with a low-ish ceiling (Cousins type) Maybe he can exceed that, but that's the perception.

In comment 15022182 ryanmkeane said:

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the issue is that the opinion of Jones around league circles is much, much higher than the NYG fan base. The fan base can't be patient.

You're talking out of your ass. If we have a new GM, he'll absolutely want to build around "his guys." With a new GM and the 1st pick, there's a better chance we have a new HC and Lawrence than DJ and and a trade of the first pick.

Also, link some quotes from "other people around the league" saying DJ is a lock to be a franchise QB. There are none...

of some of you.

I think Giants fans are more positive on Jones than other teams and the national media (if anyone cares about the national media).

Giants fans, media, etc. have all the excuses/explanations ready to rattle off. No OL, no blocking TE, no Barkley, no weapons beyond Slayton and Shepard IOW no time to pass and no one to throw it to.

Others see his stat line, his highlights (many negative this year) and feel like Ray Lucas on draft day 2019.

In summary, I don't actually know, but my sense is outside of the Giants sphere of influence, Jones is not viewed favorably.

Be a Top 5 QB but i think he could be a top 10 to 12. And let's be honest that's as good of not better than what Eli was for stretches of his career. The distinguishing factor will be how clutch he could be. Eli was that despite many of his faults

I like the way pjcas posed the question and I agree with his assessment. There is likely only about 1 or 2 teams that would flat out, no questions asked, swap their current QB for Jones. As far as the initial question, you seriously wouldn't take that list of No due to $/questions over Jones. I might skip Stafford, but the rest? Dak's ankle now is a big issue. But, if you asked a few weeks ago, almost anyone would take him over Jones. And the maybes? How would you not take every single one of them?

In comment 15022182 ryanmkeane said:

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the issue is that the opinion of Jones around league circles is much, much higher than the NYG fan base. The fan base can't be patient.

Based on what?

In comment 15022284 pjcas18 said:

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should be for the other 31 teams how many would give up their current QB or QB situation (someone like the Jets knowing they likely have a QB reset coming up in the 2021 draft) for Jones. My answer, beginning with the worst teams: NYJ: no, likely get their QB in the 2021 draft NYG: N/A WAS: depends where they finish for 2021 draft, but yes, would likely replace Haskins with Jones ATL: no JAX: no, some might say yes, but Minshew has been similar to Jones MIN: too much invested in Cousins MIA: no LAC: no CIN: no DAL: no, but depends on Dak, if they don't re-sign Dak, possibly but for now no DET: possibly but Stafford under contract 2 more years, so unlikely because they'd have to extend Jones then too NEW: Possibly, but it's Jones vs Stidham DEN: probably not MIA: no CAR: no SF: no NO: definitely not for 2020, and probably not beyond, but possibly post Brees if they don't give Hill the job LV: no PHI: no CLE: no TAM: no IND: not for 2020, but maybe post Rivers JAX: see above, no BUF: no ARI: no GB: no KC: no BALT: no CHI: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 PIT: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 NYJ: see above TEN: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 So, in summary only 1 team would take Jones over their 2020 QB situation, Washington, and maybe a handful would consider it going forward, but most probably say no given Jones has just one year after next remaining on his rookie deal.

This is a really good post but the logic doesn't work that way, in one direction. CAR may not trade Bridgewater for Jones, but the Giants would not trade Jones for Bridgewater. DAL would not trade Prescott for Jones (before injury) but I am not sure the Giants would trade Jones for Prescott. For most of the last 15 years the Giants would not trade Eli for Ben R., not would the Steelers trade Ben for Eli. It is just not additive like that...

In comment 15022655 DonQuixote said:

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In comment 15022284 pjcas18 said: Quote: should be for the other 31 teams how many would give up their current QB or QB situation (someone like the Jets knowing they likely have a QB reset coming up in the 2021 draft) for Jones. My answer, beginning with the worst teams: NYJ: no, likely get their QB in the 2021 draft NYG: N/A WAS: depends where they finish for 2021 draft, but yes, would likely replace Haskins with Jones ATL: no JAX: no, some might say yes, but Minshew has been similar to Jones MIN: too much invested in Cousins MIA: no LAC: no CIN: no DAL: no, but depends on Dak, if they don't re-sign Dak, possibly but for now no DET: possibly but Stafford under contract 2 more years, so unlikely because they'd have to extend Jones then too NEW: Possibly, but it's Jones vs Stidham DEN: probably not MIA: no CAR: no SF: no NO: definitely not for 2020, and probably not beyond, but possibly post Brees if they don't give Hill the job LV: no PHI: no CLE: no TAM: no IND: not for 2020, but maybe post Rivers JAX: see above, no BUF: no ARI: no GB: no KC: no BALT: no CHI: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 PIT: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 NYJ: see above TEN: not for 2020, but maybe post 2020 So, in summary only 1 team would take Jones over their 2020 QB situation, Washington, and maybe a handful would consider it going forward, but most probably say no given Jones has just one year after next remaining on his rookie deal. This is a really good post but the logic doesn't work that way, in one direction. CAR may not trade Bridgewater for Jones, but the Giants would not trade Jones for Bridgewater. DAL would not trade Prescott for Jones (before injury) but I am not sure the Giants would trade Jones for Prescott. For most of the last 15 years the Giants would not trade Eli for Ben R., not would the Steelers trade Ben for Eli. It is just not additive like that...

Agree, but I was just showing the counter perspective from the OP showing exactly what you say, it's not always simple like that.