He thinks the Giants will win more than 4 games based on how competitive they’ve been.
As of now, he doesn’t get the sense that Gettleman is a lock to be gone, if Jones is the guy at QB, it makes it complicated.
Lastly, and this is encouraging - a lot of young executives would want the GM job based on Judge. Ideally, I would like to see Judge paired with a young executive.
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As the Giants find themselves in a cycle of losing....wash, rinse repeat.....
But if Judge wants to bring in another guy.....no issue. I get the sense this is a group effort anyhow
We give DG too much credit and blame....as these decisions are not made in a syllo......
Thomas certainly had coaches input.....as Georgia coach and Judge are close.....same with McKinney.
Exactly man, it was recess pieces thats droped the game. Consistency is key, if we keep blowing up the thing then we will continue to be a team that close to win games...i think Gentlemen deserves 1 more year...if we start over again then expect another 3-5 years to rebuild
We are consistently bad, so sticking with DG makes sense?
The Gordian Knot between GM & HC was cut last off-season . Belichick selected Judge . Not Gettleman . The Giants need to hire an outsider who is also a generation younger than the dinosaurs . When Gettleman spoke of the “computer people “ he sounded as hideously out-dated and uninformed as Wellington did when he was asked to compare the Cowboys using a mainframe to store and collate their talent data base while his organization was relying on dog-eared copies of Street & Smith’s college yearbooks .
Young people tend to hang around young people . They bounce ideas off each other . They speak a similar language . They hire from among their ranks . They establish friendships with young college coaches . They are not intimidated by metrics . They don’t deal with cliches from the 80s and 90s.
It looks like another wonderful draft position is going to be presented to the Giants , in large measure because of Gettleman’s incompetence . Do you insist that they are going to keep him because he might have been right on Daniel Jones ? Actually I think he was on that item but what about the plethora of bone-headed decisions ? The guy has been a clown . Gettleman’s Follies .
That said , I fully expect Mara to keep him .
We play our division opponents 1 more time each and could get 2 or even 3 wins there. The Bengals are not a guaranteed loss and either are the Cards or Browns.
Right now the key is what we do before the trade deadline- EE, Zeitker, Tate all could go to bolster 2021.
Keep in mind the draft this past year and our team make up and philosophy under judge. He wants scheme and position versatility. We drafted guys like Brown, Coughlin, Crowder etc. to give us youth and flexibility in both the LB'er position and special teams. Our Oline picks (while still a work in progress) are there for 2021 as much as they were for 2020. Thomas will be one T (I still think RT) and Peart will be another. SL will get one of the guard spots.
If we play things right we will sign some guys who can help right away (WR and (CB) and trade down in draft to get a couple of additional picks. If we get an Edge rusher and say another WR or another CB then get another TE and a 2nd drafted WR, all of a sudden our team is vsstly different and very young- long term success..
I do not believe at all that Gettleman hired Judge, not even close. It was a Mara hire who was heavily influenced by Belichick. Gettleman may have been impressed with him, but Mara made the call.
Rapoport saying young executives wanting to potentially work with Judge is encouraging.
It’s tough bringing in outside GM’s though because a lot of them already have a head coach in mind I’m sure:
-Anyone from KC will probably want to be a package deal with Bieniemy
-Anyone from BAL may want to work with Martindale or Roman
-Anyone from BUF may want to work with Daboll
-Even Caserio could be waiting for an opportunity to work with McDaniels
Ideally, Judge has already talked to prospective GM’s in other spots to potentially come to NYG. But, without that, it’s very possible the Giants could hire anyone above and the new GM will try to influence Mara to bring in someone they’ve worked with at the first opportunity. This is what happened with Quinn & Caldwell which ultimately led to Patricia. That is what tends to happen.
So, it’s very possible that during the interview, Judge was comfortable working with Gettleman and then ultimately Abrams given assurances that he will have significant say on the players brought in.
Are you at all surprised with how close these games have been. I remember you stating the Giants would get beaten easily by Philly on a short week. Aside from one half against SF, every game they’ve had chances to win.
Are you surprised with that? Do you credit Judge?
Let me ask this, if you have a boss that gives you what you want and it goes wrong where does the blame lie? Doe is lie with the boss? Does it lie with the person asking the boss for those things? Or does it lie with that system?
It really is a unique situation because EVERYONE is killing Gettleman but when you look at what is happening it is really hard to blame him (hear me out). Of I was a coach I would love Gettleman as my GM just for the simple fact that when I want or need something then there is a good chance it'll be provided for me. When Shurmur and Bettcher were here you can clearly see the types of players brought in. Shurmur and Bettcher had a huge say who they got with their connections.
Now look at Judge. The draft was completely different. Judge even said that they had a difference of opinions on players and that's a good thing but this draft was completely different than when Shurmur was here. Look at the FA and connections to Garrett and Graham. It is nice to have a GM go out and get you what you want as a coach instead of not having that connection.
So, while that is nice, where does the blame lie? And this is the biggest problem with the Giants and was at the forefront with Reese and Coughlin. If it is truly a collaborative process then it is great when it N works but when it doesn't work it is way too cloudy to understand where the true problem lies.
To fix those problems makes it very difficult when you try to put the blame on one person when it is a group effort so pulling out one piece and replacing that one person will actually cause more problems than solutions. For anybody that has had new coworkers you know 8t is a complete shot in the dark if it'll be a positive or a negative. We see it with GMs and HCs all the time. Far more don't work out than do work out.
So, long story short, if you believe Judge is the guy and you trust him then I think this combo of people will get another chance unless Gettleman steps down. Gettleman is more the person that will be bringing in Jidge's guys than Judge just coaching who is randomly brought in. Now, with that said, I have one grip with Judge. We have no idea how he is as a talent evaluator and he seems to putt too much value on versatility and special teams play than actual ability to play an offensive or defensive position. I don't agree with some of the roster moves so far but nobody bats 1.000 either so we'll see where we end up.
One more note, to me this is more of a systemic problem. I think it is good that there is a bunch of collaboration. However, I believe we need a GM to take the reigns and say I will get you guys when I can but this is my call, my job, and my responsibility. I'm going to get the players I feel will have the greatest impact on turning this franchise around. I think that next GM has tk have a mentality like that. It doesn't mean it needs to be a huge disconnect from him and the coaches. They can still collaborate where Judge can point out some non-negotiables like players have to be smart, team-first, versatile, coachable, and high effort players but from there the GM has to own his responsibility of bringing in those players.
Thanks for this. I am guessing a good portion of fans will scroll past this without consideration.
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Anything less than 4 wins and I think either by “retirement” or straight up canning, Dave is gone.
Are you at all surprised with how close these games have been. I remember you stating the Giants would get beaten easily by Philly on a short week. Aside from one half against SF, every game they’ve had chances to win.
Are you surprised with that? Do you credit Judge?
Very surprised actually. Despite the record, thus far Judge has been very impressive. I hope/think we have our guy there. I’m concerned if they do sell off more guys (which is necessary) how that affects the team morale. Judge would have to maneuver that should it come to fruition.
They have to go a different direction. Encouraging to hear that about Judge because I think Judge is our guy for hopefully a long time.
The organization must give Judge the time they need....
The coaches must figure out which players they can win with....and start to make longterm decision (playing Peart is important going forward), trading away the ones that do not fit.
I feel the Judge and Gettlemen relationship is genuine...so I doubt he gets fired, possibly retire. I also would not be shocked, if they hire an assistant GM. (I understand fans must dump on someone their frustration but DG gets way too much blane and no credit).
Judge has my trust....W/L record does not really matter at this point. Figure out what they want next year...and get those players ready.
Gettleman arrived and said the Eli team had a lot left, you can win while you build, etc. He’s hired two coaches, used three top 10 picks and five first round picks overall and has not much to show for it right now. He also likely over-drafted a QB who might be sort of a middle of the pack guy or a career backup, and the bottom line is they are 10-29 in three seasons.
It’s time for a change.
My B-i-L is a Lions fan. There are some rumors Patricia may be interested in joining the Giants staff as well.
We know zero, we speculate much.
Personally, I'm not all that optimistic that the arrow is pointing up. Talent wise, I think we've stopped the hemorrhaging after the first 2 years of DG, but that doesn't mean we've actually started improving the talent level.
Until we actually start winning, this team is just spinning its wheels as bottom feeders, in a putrid division. It used to be that the scorn was that we won games we were supposed to win, but nothing more. Now, there are very few games we're favored/supposed to win. It's a toss-up what shitty team we may, or may not, suck worse than.
Yay! we only got blown out by one good team (which was minus a lot of starters), and didn't lose too badly to the rest (good or bad). If barely winning against a pathetic team for our lone win is cause for optimism, the bar is really, really low.
So, by your account tom couhhlin was all on board with the "basketball on grass" philosophy of reese and ross. Tom coughlin was ok with his offensive line being decimated by injuries and retirements with no answers. Not all GM's work in concert with the head coaches.
Look at the WTF team. The head coach at the time (gruden) didn't want haskins, but the GM and owner took him anyway. I could go on and on, so no not all GM's bring in players that the coaches want
Can or can't? Because Gettleman barely even tries to find edge rushers.
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As the Giants find themselves in a cycle of losing....wash, rinse repeat.....
But if Judge wants to bring in another guy.....no issue. I get the sense this is a group effort anyhow
We give DG too much credit and blame....as these decisions are not made in a syllo......
Thomas certainly had coaches input.....as Georgia coach and Judge are close.....same with McKinney.
Exactly man, it was recess pieces thats droped the game. Consistency is key, if we keep blowing up the thing then we will continue to be a team that close to win games...i think Gentlemen deserves 1 more year...if we start over again then expect another 3-5 years to rebuild
Consistency is the by-product of success. If the team is winning, everybody gets to keep their jobs. Why should incompetent employees continue to keep their positions?
This team owes it to the fans to find the best people for the job.
Yes, Gettleman whiffed on the Tackle pick. That kid may still be a serviceable RT, but that's a big swing and miss right there.
I question any scouting department that went to the Combine last year, and paid attention during the WR workouts -- and didn't see any 2nd round value in that group. That dept should be over-hauled top to bottom.
I think part of the problem is in player evaluation and he's a four-letter word that starts with M.
I think part of the problem is in player evaluation and he's a four-letter word that starts with M.
Which one? There's two.
Consistency is the by-product of success. If the team is winning, everybody gets to keep their jobs. Why should incompetent employees continue to keep their positions?
Exactly! I know Gettleman has his supporters here and while I don't agree with any of them, I can understand some of the reasons why people still support him. However, to use consistency as the reason to maintain someone who is failing at their job, is just nuts.
Gettleman's been here 3 years and not one of you "consistency" guys would have been on board for 3 more years (at minimum) of losing in his tenure. It should not take any GM 3 years to at least sniff a .500 record.
Yeah, I know this season's not over but it's highly unlikely that we win 5 or 6 games the rest of way.
I'm not saying DG is without blame. Far from it. My biggest point is the system is flawed. One other point that wasn't clear was one person can suck in a situation and that same person can be great in a different situation just like a player with a different coaching staff. I personally think Judge and Gettleman can work out together because Judge seems to have a much better vision than Shurmur. The problem is we don't know and we haven't seen immediate results.
We may or may not beat the Bengals, but that's about it.
Looking at 2-14 or 3-13, drafting anything from #2 to #5.
Gettleman 100% has to go. Judge has to be given a GM who is in harmony with him, or just a GM who is better than Gettleman.
With #2 a QB is in play. Judge will have to make a call on whether he wishes to stick with DJ or move on. Advantage of moving on, if you believe there is an equally good QB available is that you get four/five years at discount.
I like DJ, he's a gamer, but you know what, so was Davis Webb. I used to hear from the Giants own people how enthusiastic he was, how he was always tailing Eli for advice, the dedication, but at the end of the day that's just not enough. The talent has to be there, not to mention the propensity to avoid turning the ball over. If there's a QB in the 2021 draft with better a better arm and the right attitude, then you have to go after him. I reckon Judge will do that, because he will make a cold, hard assessment.
We hired the wrong guy for the GM job because of good old fashioned “Giants Way” cronyism. And we continue to pay a steep price for it - we can’t win. You know, that thing on the scoreboard where at the end of the game we have more points than the other team. In three years under Gettleman we’ve done that a whopping TEN times.
But let’s not upset the apple cart here because maybe Gettleman got it right with Daniel Turnover Jones and a first EVER head coach at anything.
Well, this apple cart was upset a long ago. It’s been run over several times and it’s no longer recognizable except for one side of the cart that reads “Resume Dave’s Delicious Apples”...
Liked his big speech but quite frankly he has looked like another failed Belichick assistant coach promoted to HC
Liked his big speech but quite frankly he has looked like another failed Belichick assistant coach promoted to HC
The guy has never been a Head Coach at any level and already we’ve come to the conclusion that he’s another failed BB assistant?! Hmmmmmm. He’s building something here and has only coached 7 games so far. This has to play out over a minimum of at least 3 years before we consider him a possible failure. There are also so many other variables to consider, including talent!
Liked his big speech but quite frankly he has looked like another failed Belichick assistant coach promoted to HC
Better him than ANYONE named Mara.
Liked his big speech but quite frankly he has looked like another failed Belichick assistant coach promoted to HC
Well we’d be firing the GM who gave him this team sooo....
Unless you think this team should be performing better I’m not sure what you are getting at. Judge is going to have heavily input on the GM but ultimately Mara will be the one hiring him. But why even have Judge then if he doesn’t get input? Just fire him and do it all again next year, is that what you are suggesting?
Gettlemen stays with Judge. Stop the merry-go-round
If DG were let go, that would be 3 GMs in four years to go along with four coaches in six years
Not a recipe for success
Is it a recipe for success to keep a GM (or any high level manager) when you know the manager is incompetent.
Too many give DG too many excuses.
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between Judge and DG?
We know zero, we speculate much.
Exactly. As far as we know, Judge could think he is a dink.
Why would they saddle him with a GM he doesn't feel will help him succeed?...
IMO the reason they hired Judge in was to help change the culture in the front office. Gettleman "retires" after this season, Judge brings in his guy or has more input on personnel with someone like Abrams at GM.
I hope its the former. I hope Judge gets his guy and together they change the course of this team.
Why would they saddle him with a GM he doesn't feel will help him succeed?...
IMO the reason they hired Judge in was to help change the culture in the front office. Gettleman "retires" after this season, Judge brings in his guy or has more input on personnel with someone like Abrams at GM.
I hope its the former. I hope Judge gets his guy and together they change the course of this team.
Bingo. I think this is it. It’s one of two scenarios:
1.) Judge has an idea of who he hopes to work with as GM, maybe they’ve even already talked. Mara would still need to approve the hire.
2.) It is already been discussed in the interview process that Abrams will be taking over with Judge having personnel input (not running the show, but significant input). Judge was comfortable with this and that is the understanding.
Belichick recommended this and I’m sure the front office dynamic come up with his conversations with Judge before taking the job. Also, Judge strikes me as very smart. I don’t think as a 38 year old he would jump into an opportunity with a 4-12 team and a lame duck GM unless some of those concerns were addressed.
We play our division opponents 1 more time each and could get 2 or even 3 wins there. The Bengals are not a guaranteed loss and either are the Cards or Browns.
Right now the key is what we do before the trade deadline- EE, Zeitker, Tate all could go to bolster 2021.
Keep in mind the draft this past year and our team make up and philosophy under judge. He wants scheme and position versatility. We drafted guys like Brown, Coughlin, Crowder etc. to give us youth and flexibility in both the LB'er position and special teams. Our Oline picks (while still a work in progress) are there for 2021 as much as they were for 2020. Thomas will be one T (I still think RT) and Peart will be another. SL will get one of the guard spots.
If we play things right we will sign some guys who can help right away (WR and (CB) and trade down in draft to get a couple of additional picks. If we get an Edge rusher and say another WR or another CB then get another TE and a 2nd drafted WR, all of a sudden our team is vsstly different and very young- long term success..
You could also look at it like this, the giants are a terrible Rivera decision away from being 0-7. Also consider this, the Giants played one of their better games in some time in philly coupled with philly with doing ever single thing they could through 3 quarters to give the Giants the game, and they still lost. Heck, they barely got any yardage with the ability to still kick a FG to win. Also consider, the current iteration of the Eagles are terrible.
Consistency for the sake of consistency is foolish if the people leading the organization aren't the right people. McAdoo, Shurmur, Gettleman have all been bad to horrible hires. The only consistency they've brought, outside of BMs first year, is being consistently bad. But yes it's much better to keep the wrong people because of consistency 🙄🙄
Liked his big speech but quite frankly he has looked like another failed Belichick assistant coach promoted to HC
Belichick's first season as head coach of the Patriots, they were 0-4 and then 2-8.
I guess they shoulda fired him right there and then!
Some of us are assessing Joe Judge on a little more than the win/loss record, like how he handles the players, how they respond to him, what decisions he makes, but you go ahead, make him responsible for this roster.
He's had some good to very good acquistions and some misses. But that said, the product on the field just isn't good enough to win games consistently unless they play a near perfect game and that falls on the GM.
My hopes are that they'll reach outside of the organization who is philosophically aligned with Judge and they'll be able to upgrade the talent ASAP.
This offseason will be critical.
This is the big one to me. While he hasn’t really sacrificed the future after he’s gone and I think he’s set us up okay moving forward. This is the fireable offense to me. That and okaying Shurmur. You can’t have the number 1 mandate you give is to fix oline and 3 years later it still doesn’t seem close. Of course if Thomas and Peart work out, it will look much better than it is. Problem is he whiffed on Pio, Solder, and Zietlee and Hernandez isn’t the steal he was billed as. A competent NFL guard at this point.