I’ve been struggling with this thought for a few weeks now. I like Leonard Williams, and believe he is a plus player. However, the Gettleman era has kind of educated me on positional value as well, and how allocating resources into positions that don’t effect the game as much can set you back. So, do you at all sign Williams? Is there a price range you would feel comfortable signing him long term to?
It's simply how you win games.
LW has not shown enough YoY consistency for a high cap dollar investment. His skill set is replaceable. Lots of DTs out there. Let's spend money one bigger, premium needs...
I'd be hesitant to go above that but would be fine with that deal. Or ideally below if the market has softened due to the lack of leaguewide cap space.
if they can't reach an extension with him I would be tempted to transition tag him because then they can just match whatever the market values him at or let him go knowing he got more than expected (which will likely translate into a comp pick).
The downside to that however is on a lower tag he might hold out, but I'd imagine he'd also be tradable and he'd have seen firsthand how the market values him.
The dilemma is they need young talent and I'd keep him over Tomlinson.
LW is the most “almost” player I can remember. Even this season, in which he’s really well, LW doesn’t really make a difference in the win / loss column. It’s the oddest thing, he’s terrific and he almost makes difference in every game. It’s like, I want to say he’s easily a plus player, and he is, I guess, but on the other hand, are there ever any big plays he makes to swing a game? Just don’t think so.
But that is fine, and why you trade him now.
Odd fixations on players that have not shown anything very special other than being costly in terms of picks/$.
Ogletree, Beal, Baker, LW off top my head.
I feel LW and Dexter Lawrence are difference makers....with a premium edge rusher....this front 7 is potentially very dangerous.
Cap shouldn't be a major hurdle...as the other key guys are on rookie deals.
That would be the wise approach. Determine what you're willing to pay for Williams, and if someone is willing to pay him more, let him go.
We know what he is, and what he isn't. Pay him for what he is, not what you hope he'll be.
He'd be harder to replace than Tomlinson.
Why can’t we have both?!? We had that and more back in the mid to late 2000s. Now we can’t even have one?
Exactly. I don't know how many times people need to see guys like Ngakoue, Dupree, Ford, Clark, etc. tagged and traded before they realize those guys just don't hit the open market.
The open market produces tier 2 guys like Flowers/Vernon who get overpaid or risky players like Clowney.
Williams is a very good player with a healthy track record. He impacts the game both vs. the pass and run. Sign him and draft an edge rusher.
Yes, he is clearly the talented one among that group. Just suggesting these guys were all targeted by Giants using costly draft picks (extremely valuable during a rebuild) and a bit difficult to see reason why.
I’ll keep asking why we can’t have both. Some of you act like the giants are doing something unconventional if they sign Williams long term and then sign Lawrence and even thomlinson long term.
Why is it ok to have 3 high priced OL (let’s say center and two tackles) but incredibly stupid to do the same on the DL.
Also, we have a bird in the hand with Williams. We know he’s good. We know he stays healthy. When can we start stock piling good players?
It's hard enough to find one "great" edge guy. Finding guys who can do what LW does is not as challenging...
But that is fine, and why you trade him now.
Odd fixations on players that have not shown anything very special other than being costly in terms of picks/$.
Ogletree, Beal, Baker, LW off top my head.
One player in that list does not belong. Are you serious?
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But you guys do know that if we had 2-3 great edge guys and no solid beef up front the D would still suck right?
It's hard enough to find one "great" edge guy. Finding guys who can do what LW does is not as challenging...
I disagree. Guys like Williams are easier to find than JJ Watt or Mack or that caliber player but you can find guys like Osi or the former jaguar who gets traded every year now. We just pulled Fackrell out of our ass and even carter showed solid player ability this year before getting hurt.
We’re over thinking it. You need two player DEs in this league. Williams is well on his way to a second pro bowl. He’s good. He’s young enough and NEVER gets hurt! Yea let’s let him walk ok sure.
I’ll keep asking why we can’t have both. Some of you act like the giants are doing something unconventional if they sign Williams long term and then sign Lawrence and even thomlinson long term.
Why is it ok to have 3 high priced OL (let’s say center and two tackles) but incredibly stupid to do the same on the DL.
Also, we have a bird in the hand with Williams. We know he’s good. We know he stays healthy. When can we start stock piling good players?
You can stockpile good players but to do it so deeply across the DT position is foolish. Not that hard to find plus players at the position at price tags lower than LW will cost. May not reach his level but better allocation of dollars across different units on the roster is the smarter play.
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sorted out. And because there are enough teams with cap space, difficult to think somebody isn't going to pay more than what the Giants are willing.
But that is fine, and why you trade him now.
Odd fixations on players that have not shown anything very special other than being costly in terms of picks/$.
Ogletree, Beal, Baker, LW off top my head.
One player in that list does not belong. Are you serious?
Draft picks and a franchise tag for a position that you just drafted a guy #17 overall and Tomlinson in second round a few years ago?
Position overload is what makes it odd. And at a position that teams don't value highly unless your guys also bring more of a pass rush.
By the time they do, Williams should be cuttable and less painful on the cap.
Not surprised at your rational. I would reason that the team has plenty of rebuilding on its horizon and this isn't where I would put my future capital, no matter the sunk cost.
I still think we should trade Thomlinson for whatever need we can fill and sign Williams. You could then replace Thomlinson with specific skill set we are looking for.
Use the money on trying to get Matt Iionnadis in the off season. Much cheaper and similar skill set. Has more sacks. Much more..
but the LW move is one of the better moves of his tenure. He's a very good player and only 26 years old. He's worth 15 mil a year. That's the going rate and market for disruptive interior players these days.
That 3rd round pick they traded to the Jets...the most likely candidates (according to many on herre) left on the board for the Giants were Zack Baun and Matt Hennessy.
Baun doesn't see the field and Hennessy has struggled badly in limited snaps
If I knew we could get something tangible for Thomlinson I’d trade him. I know the giants like him as he’s one of the captains but he seems redundant if you keep Williams.
Conversely, I guess you could just let Williams walk, let his FA contract play into the compensatory formula and find his replacement in the same manner but I think Williams is harder to replace than thomlinson.
LW is being paid almost $17m right now - who do you regret them not giving that money to instead?
(honest question)
My position as well. Quality DTS are a dime a dozen. Elite DTs like Danold or Sapp are generational, two-way DT types. And LW isn't near their class...
I do not understand the logic of letting talent walk....while this team lacks talent?
This is why I'd consider a transition tag this offseason if they are still deadlocked. If he gets $18-19-20m, you can pass on matching the offer knowing you are likely to get a 3rd round comp pick.
Anything less in an acceptable range you can match.
And if he gets no offers he will be back at the negotiating table with a lot less leverage. Which is probably the likeliest scenario given the leaguewide cap situation. The biggest contract to any DL last offseason was 4/53m for DJ Reader - who is somewhat comparable. Most would sign LW to that contract in a heartbeat. Seems like a pretty big gamble for LW to think he's going to get dramatically more than that in year with a lot less cap room leaguewide.
Given the situation on both sides I'd be really surprised if there ultimately isn't a fair multi-year deal for both sides somewhere between what Reader and Jarrett each got.
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He's a good player but can be replaced with run pluggers who cost a fraction of 17M. The Giants desperately need speed edge rushers. They already have money tied up in Lawrence and will probably resign Tomlinson. Use the Williams money on difference maker edge rushers. Williams is a luxury on a good team at best. Whoever pays him 17M will regret it.
LW is being paid almost $17m right now - who do you regret them not giving that money to instead?
(honest question)
This is the question that never ever gets answered. Even as far back to Oliver vernon id ask it and never hear a peep. That money ain’t going into your pocket. It isn’t bringing 28 year old Lawrence Taylor back to this defense.
The money isn’t always bringing the greener grass to this side of the fence.
All I hear is we over. paid we overpaid. What player was supposed to get that money? Offer up that info instead of screaming we overpaid and I might be willing to listen. Otherwise I’ll assume that money wasn’t going anywhere else. It was player A for X money or no FA player at all that was player A’s equal.
If I knew we could get something tangible for Thomlinson I’d trade him. I know the giants like him as he’s one of the captains but he seems redundant if you keep Williams.
Conversely, I guess you could just let Williams walk, let his FA contract play into the compensatory formula and find his replacement in the same manner but I think Williams is harder to replace than thomlinson.
Think very similarly only I think its spelled Tomlinson. And he is a free agent next year.
Williams is probably harder to replace than Tomlinson, but that's probably why Williams will garner more in a trade now. And also why Tomlinson is probably a cheaper long term deal with not that much drop off in skills.
Tomlinson being put up for trade quietly last year (and maybe now) also has an eerie feeling of Gettleman trying to shed all of Reese's guys.
Leo is capable of doing both run stopping and getting pressure on the QB.
Sy himself said last year that LW is worth $12M.. not much more than that..The more we pay him the less we will have to pay for OL, WR, Secondary.. add to it that there will be a lower salary cap next year.. Barkley will want money.. DJ is a year and a half from wanting a ton of money..
You can't allocate so many resources to DTs.. Thats not how good teams operate.. Most good 3-4 defenses allocate resources to LB not DTs..
He is a player whose impact isn't just felt on the stat sheet.
but resigning him with dogshit around him would be like wiping your ass with $17M for a couple years.
I do not understand the logic of letting talent walk....while this team lacks talent?
Gettleman already broke that rule twice.
If there is an alternative in the draft or a lower cost guy, I don't know if we have the choice as team that will need to ascend.
It's not ideal, but unless we have a cheaper better alternative available we will need to sign him to fair market value.
If there are LB's available, or a corner we like, and want to spread the investment across the back end, I'm for it. There will need to be an answer on the defensive side of the ball if we let him go. If the money goes to other positions, i'm ok with that.
Exactly. People act as if there’s all this premium talent lining up to sign with the Giants in the off-season. There won’t be, and what’s available won’t be what the Giants need or should be focusing on.
ER talent isn’t going to be there in FA. The guys people are hoping will be there won’t be. The Giants need to keep what good players they have and continue to build the core through the draft.
I do not understand the logic of letting talent walk....while this team lacks talent?
I agree and its the reason we're in the position we're in with the roster.
The 16-17 mil a year he’ll fetch can bring 3-4 starters to a team with holes all over the place and DT is the one place we have the depth to do without him.
This may be news to some but players get overpaid. That's what happens. The only way they should consider moving on from Williams is if they can get something of near equal value in return.
He's a multiple player who allows the defense to give many different looks. That's crucial to Pat's defense. Williams is someone they should use as one of the building blocks to restoring this defense.
The 16-17 mil a year he’ll fetch can bring 3-4 starters to a team with holes all over the place and DT is the one place we have the depth to do without him.
3-4 starters but your starters like Markus Golden or Olsen Pierre (last year). They were bottom of the fringe types.
The 16-17 mil a year he’ll fetch can bring 3-4 starters to a team with holes all over the place and DT is the one place we have the depth to do without him.
Who are these “3-4 starters?”
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But I don’t believe on paying a guy the money he wants unless you’re in a position where he’ll put you “over the top”.
The 16-17 mil a year he’ll fetch can bring 3-4 starters to a team with holes all over the place and DT is the one place we have the depth to do without him.
3-4 starters but your starters like Markus Golden or Olsen Pierre (last year). They were bottom of the fringe types.
Markus Golden had 10 sacks last year and just did not fit this system. Olsen Pierre made the veteran minimum. They guys we bring in don’t need to be all pro’s, then need to fit the system and be contributors. 4ish million a year usually gets you that type of player.
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But I don’t believe on paying a guy the money he wants unless you’re in a position where he’ll put you “over the top”.
The 16-17 mil a year he’ll fetch can bring 3-4 starters to a team with holes all over the place and DT is the one place we have the depth to do without him.
Who are these “3-4 starters?”
Think Kyler Fackrell level/type guys. Say what you want but good teams our built by having a number of guys like him that aren’t stars but complete their assignments, fit the system and play a role.
At 4.6 mil a year 16-17million buys 3+ Kyler Fackrell’s.
And worth it.
We also have to resign Dalvin Tomlinson.
The defensive line is getting better.
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In comment 15023415 Biteymax22 said:
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But I don’t believe on paying a guy the money he wants unless you’re in a position where he’ll put you “over the top”.
The 16-17 mil a year he’ll fetch can bring 3-4 starters to a team with holes all over the place and DT is the one place we have the depth to do without him.
Who are these “3-4 starters?”
Think Kyler Fackrell level/type guys. Say what you want but good teams our built by having a number of guys like him that aren’t stars but complete their assignments, fit the system and play a role.
At 4.6 mil a year 16-17million buys 3+ Kyler Fackrell’s.
Agree with this 100%. Williams’ game is not worth a 17M year deal as it relates to his positional value to the team. He’s a nice player but you can’t get crazy when we have so many needs on our team.
For some reason there are people on this board who simply never understand that the salary cap is limited and a zero-sum game. Pay too much to one player or one position, and you have less to pay other players and other positions. Which is why positional value is so important to consider when team building. Also, these contract are not just a 1 year thing, they stretch into the future, so they have to be planned long term. It's not just about who you pay the money to today, its who you are paying next year and the year after and they year after. Overpaying guys now just because you suck and don't have somebody else to pay isn't a good idea since you are still going to overpaying in a few years. Just look at the Solder signing. These contracts become an albatross that limits what you can do in the future.
How much value do run stuffing DTs bring in a passing league. Is there value there? Of course, but is there 17-18M in value. Errr, I don't think so.
For some reason there are people on this site that just never understand the salary cap what it means and the limitations it forces. Overpay for a player of a position and you have less to pay other players and positions. It's a zero sum game. And just because you suck and don't have good players to use your cap space on right now is not a good reason to overpay a player now. You will be overpaying them next year, the year after and the year after that. These contracts become an albatross that limits what you can do in the future. Just look at the Solder deal.
Consider that 17-18M represents about 8.5% - 9% of the total cap. Is there value to a run stuffing DT in a passing league? Of course there is... However, it can't be 1/11th of your total budget. A run stuffing DL is not that valuable, and not worth jamming up your future cap management.
Yeh no shit, the salary cap matter and asset allocation is important.
However, the NFL already bakes that into the money they throw at these positions. If he was an elite pash rusher he was solid at the run he’d be looking at a contract in the ballpark of 27 million a year. You get into trouble giving guys elite contracts AT THEIR POSITION who aren’t elite and miss games. LW falls into both those. Now if he’s looking for 20+ million I’d suggest we let him walk.
He’s an elite 3/4 end of 4/3 UT whose healthy, pay the guy. And before people throw Donald in there. Donald is an elite player whose the best player at his position of all time. He’s what you call a statistical anomaly and is paid accordingly. Who was the best 2nd best OLB in LTs time? Was he not elite because LT was a freak of nature?
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For some reason there are people on this site that just never understand the salary cap what it means and the limitations it forces. Overpay for a player of a position and you have less to pay other players and positions. It's a zero sum game.
The reality is that it's not a zero sum game. Unless you're in cap hell, you can always kick the can down the road. And kicking the can down the road doesn't lead to cap hell if the guys you are paying well are playing well (even if their relative compensation exceeds their relative contribution). It also helps to get significant contributions from your players on their rookie contracts, especially if they were drafted in the top five or ten. A GM with a good eye for talent shouldn't have to lose that talent to the salary cap.
Milton it is a zero sum game. You rob Peter to pay Paul. Giving a bunch of decent players elite contracts hamstrings you in FA. Or giving injured guys big contracts. Kicking the can down the road is the worst thing you can do unless you truly think you are 1 or 2 guys away. Dead money is money not on the field. This is why drafting well is so key. Getting good players cheap is step 1 to building a sustainable team.
That being said unless LW is looking for an astronomical contract he’s clearly a guy you pay.
I’m going to laugh when DG retires and the next guy more than likely locks him down to a deal.
Yeh no shit, the salary cap matter and asset allocation is important.
However, the NFL already bakes that into the money they throw at these positions. If he was an elite pash rusher he was solid at the run he’d be looking at a contract in the ballpark of 27 million a year. You get into trouble giving guys elite contracts AT THEIR POSITION who aren’t elite and miss games. LW falls into both those. Now if he’s looking for 20+ million I’d suggest we let him walk.
He’s an elite 3/4 end of 4/3 UT whose healthy, pay the guy. And before people throw Donald in there. Donald is an elite player whose the best player at his position of all time. He’s what you call a statistical anomaly and is paid accordingly. Who was the best 2nd best OLB in LTs time? Was he not elite because LT was a freak of nature?
Carter wasn’t much to begin with, only one sack in five games.
The top rushbackers in LT’s time were Andre Tippett (Patriots) and Rickey Jackson (Saints). Guys like Derrick Thomas, Kevin Greene (no relation to Joe) and Pat Swilling came in later in the 80s.
Let’s just pay only when it’s an underpay. Never overpay and let’s never try and stock pile excessive talent in one area and see how far we go. We won’t win shit. I promise you that.
Why are we letting a two player DL walk? Why??? We don’t have anything here!
JPP only making 12.5 a year.He re-d9d his contract in 2017. 2 years after signing the contract with the Giants..
I do not understand the logic of letting talent walk....while this team lacks talent?
IMO, Tomlinson is the best D-lineman we have, w/Lawrence a close 2nd. L-Will and Hill are close for 3rd best, but it'd be great to have all 4 of them again next yr if L-Will doesn't expect to be paid like he's Khalil Mack!
So who gives you the most in return as far as a draft pick, and who is replaced by a more rushing/pressure type DL.