I’ve been struggling with this thought for a few weeks now. I like Leonard Williams, and believe he is a plus player. However, the Gettleman era has kind of educated me on positional value as well, and how allocating resources into positions that don’t effect the game as much can set you back. So, do you at all sign Williams? Is there a price range you would feel comfortable signing him long term to?
It's simply how you win games.
LW has not shown enough YoY consistency for a high cap dollar investment. His skill set is replaceable. Lots of DTs out there. Let's spend money one bigger, premium needs...
I'd be hesitant to go above that but would be fine with that deal. Or ideally below if the market has softened due to the lack of leaguewide cap space.
if they can't reach an extension with him I would be tempted to transition tag him because then they can just match whatever the market values him at or let him go knowing he got more than expected (which will likely translate into a comp pick).
The downside to that however is on a lower tag he might hold out, but I'd imagine he'd also be tradable and he'd have seen firsthand how the market values him.
The dilemma is they need young talent and I'd keep him over Tomlinson.
LW is the most “almost” player I can remember. Even this season, in which he’s really well, LW doesn’t really make a difference in the win / loss column. It’s the oddest thing, he’s terrific and he almost makes difference in every game. It’s like, I want to say he’s easily a plus player, and he is, I guess, but on the other hand, are there ever any big plays he makes to swing a game? Just don’t think so.
But that is fine, and why you trade him now.
Odd fixations on players that have not shown anything very special other than being costly in terms of picks/$.
Ogletree, Beal, Baker, LW off top my head.
I feel LW and Dexter Lawrence are difference makers....with a premium edge rusher....this front 7 is potentially very dangerous.
Cap shouldn't be a major hurdle...as the other key guys are on rookie deals.
That would be the wise approach. Determine what you're willing to pay for Williams, and if someone is willing to pay him more, let him go.
We know what he is, and what he isn't. Pay him for what he is, not what you hope he'll be.
He'd be harder to replace than Tomlinson.
Why can’t we have both?!? We had that and more back in the mid to late 2000s. Now we can’t even have one?
Exactly. I don't know how many times people need to see guys like Ngakoue, Dupree, Ford, Clark, etc. tagged and traded before they realize those guys just don't hit the open market.
The open market produces tier 2 guys like Flowers/Vernon who get overpaid or risky players like Clowney.
Williams is a very good player with a healthy track record. He impacts the game both vs. the pass and run. Sign him and draft an edge rusher.
Yes, he is clearly the talented one among that group. Just suggesting these guys were all targeted by Giants using costly draft picks (extremely valuable during a rebuild) and a bit difficult to see reason why.
I’ll keep asking why we can’t have both. Some of you act like the giants are doing something unconventional if they sign Williams long term and then sign Lawrence and even thomlinson long term.
Why is it ok to have 3 high priced OL (let’s say center and two tackles) but incredibly stupid to do the same on the DL.
Also, we have a bird in the hand with Williams. We know he’s good. We know he stays healthy. When can we start stock piling good players?
It's hard enough to find one "great" edge guy. Finding guys who can do what LW does is not as challenging...
But that is fine, and why you trade him now.
Odd fixations on players that have not shown anything very special other than being costly in terms of picks/$.
Ogletree, Beal, Baker, LW off top my head.
One player in that list does not belong. Are you serious?
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But you guys do know that if we had 2-3 great edge guys and no solid beef up front the D would still suck right?
It's hard enough to find one "great" edge guy. Finding guys who can do what LW does is not as challenging...
I disagree. Guys like Williams are easier to find than JJ Watt or Mack or that caliber player but you can find guys like Osi or the former jaguar who gets traded every year now. We just pulled Fackrell out of our ass and even carter showed solid player ability this year before getting hurt.
We’re over thinking it. You need two player DEs in this league. Williams is well on his way to a second pro bowl. He’s good. He’s young enough and NEVER gets hurt! Yea let’s let him walk ok sure.
I’ll keep asking why we can’t have both. Some of you act like the giants are doing something unconventional if they sign Williams long term and then sign Lawrence and even thomlinson long term.
Why is it ok to have 3 high priced OL (let’s say center and two tackles) but incredibly stupid to do the same on the DL.
Also, we have a bird in the hand with Williams. We know he’s good. We know he stays healthy. When can we start stock piling good players?
You can stockpile good players but to do it so deeply across the DT position is foolish. Not that hard to find plus players at the position at price tags lower than LW will cost. May not reach his level but better allocation of dollars across different units on the roster is the smarter play.
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sorted out. And because there are enough teams with cap space, difficult to think somebody isn't going to pay more than what the Giants are willing.
But that is fine, and why you trade him now.
Odd fixations on players that have not shown anything very special other than being costly in terms of picks/$.
Ogletree, Beal, Baker, LW off top my head.
One player in that list does not belong. Are you serious?
Draft picks and a franchise tag for a position that you just drafted a guy #17 overall and Tomlinson in second round a few years ago?
Position overload is what makes it odd. And at a position that teams don't value highly unless your guys also bring more of a pass rush.
By the time they do, Williams should be cuttable and less painful on the cap.
Not surprised at your rational. I would reason that the team has plenty of rebuilding on its horizon and this isn't where I would put my future capital, no matter the sunk cost.
I still think we should trade Thomlinson for whatever need we can fill and sign Williams. You could then replace Thomlinson with specific skill set we are looking for.
Use the money on trying to get Matt Iionnadis in the off season. Much cheaper and similar skill set. Has more sacks. Much more..
but the LW move is one of the better moves of his tenure. He's a very good player and only 26 years old. He's worth 15 mil a year. That's the going rate and market for disruptive interior players these days.
That 3rd round pick they traded to the Jets...the most likely candidates (according to many on herre) left on the board for the Giants were Zack Baun and Matt Hennessy.
Baun doesn't see the field and Hennessy has struggled badly in limited snaps
If I knew we could get something tangible for Thomlinson I’d trade him. I know the giants like him as he’s one of the captains but he seems redundant if you keep Williams.
Conversely, I guess you could just let Williams walk, let his FA contract play into the compensatory formula and find his replacement in the same manner but I think Williams is harder to replace than thomlinson.
LW is being paid almost $17m right now - who do you regret them not giving that money to instead?
(honest question)
My position as well. Quality DTS are a dime a dozen. Elite DTs like Danold or Sapp are generational, two-way DT types. And LW isn't near their class...
I do not understand the logic of letting talent walk....while this team lacks talent?
This is why I'd consider a transition tag this offseason if they are still deadlocked. If he gets $18-19-20m, you can pass on matching the offer knowing you are likely to get a 3rd round comp pick.
Anything less in an acceptable range you can match.
And if he gets no offers he will be back at the negotiating table with a lot less leverage. Which is probably the likeliest scenario given the leaguewide cap situation. The biggest contract to any DL last offseason was 4/53m for DJ Reader - who is somewhat comparable. Most would sign LW to that contract in a heartbeat. Seems like a pretty big gamble for LW to think he's going to get dramatically more than that in year with a lot less cap room leaguewide.
Given the situation on both sides I'd be really surprised if there ultimately isn't a fair multi-year deal for both sides somewhere between what Reader and Jarrett each got.
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He's a good player but can be replaced with run pluggers who cost a fraction of 17M. The Giants desperately need speed edge rushers. They already have money tied up in Lawrence and will probably resign Tomlinson. Use the Williams money on difference maker edge rushers. Williams is a luxury on a good team at best. Whoever pays him 17M will regret it.
LW is being paid almost $17m right now - who do you regret them not giving that money to instead?
(honest question)
This is the question that never ever gets answered. Even as far back to Oliver vernon id ask it and never hear a peep. That money ain’t going into your pocket. It isn’t bringing 28 year old Lawrence Taylor back to this defense.
The money isn’t always bringing the greener grass to this side of the fence.
All I hear is we over. paid we overpaid. What player was supposed to get that money? Offer up that info instead of screaming we overpaid and I might be willing to listen. Otherwise I’ll assume that money wasn’t going anywhere else. It was player A for X money or no FA player at all that was player A’s equal.
If I knew we could get something tangible for Thomlinson I’d trade him. I know the giants like him as he’s one of the captains but he seems redundant if you keep Williams.
Conversely, I guess you could just let Williams walk, let his FA contract play into the compensatory formula and find his replacement in the same manner but I think Williams is harder to replace than thomlinson.
Think very similarly only I think its spelled Tomlinson. And he is a free agent next year.
Williams is probably harder to replace than Tomlinson, but that's probably why Williams will garner more in a trade now. And also why Tomlinson is probably a cheaper long term deal with not that much drop off in skills.
Tomlinson being put up for trade quietly last year (and maybe now) also has an eerie feeling of Gettleman trying to shed all of Reese's guys.
Leo is capable of doing both run stopping and getting pressure on the QB.
Sy himself said last year that LW is worth $12M.. not much more than that..The more we pay him the less we will have to pay for OL, WR, Secondary.. add to it that there will be a lower salary cap next year.. Barkley will want money.. DJ is a year and a half from wanting a ton of money..
You can't allocate so many resources to DTs.. Thats not how good teams operate.. Most good 3-4 defenses allocate resources to LB not DTs..
He is a player whose impact isn't just felt on the stat sheet.
but resigning him with dogshit around him would be like wiping your ass with $17M for a couple years.
I do not understand the logic of letting talent walk....while this team lacks talent?
Gettleman already broke that rule twice.