based off of Judges comments. He needs to start using the Juggs machine or have DJ throw to him more after practice! If he would stop dropping passes at key times! He's a good athlete, but can't block or catch. I suppose Kitchens really believes he can turn it around?!
So they might as well keep him. Hope they can get May me a 4 for Zeitler he’s signed thru 22. If they could get a 6 for Golden. Also, Zeitler and Golden are two of our top three cap hits this year. Be nice to have them off the books.
Is the type of guy that shows up every day and dominates practice so I can see where the coaches keep saying “we can work with him, we can fix him etc...”. I can see where the coaches want to keep him.
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
In fairness this coaching staff has had half a season with him. If we are getting offers for a late round pick I can certainly see why they want to keep him and try getting through to him.
I’d love to see him dealt, but a 6th or 7th for his “talent” and potential to be Jones’ go to likely isn’t enough.
In the end I don’t care either way, unless you were to say we are getting offers for a 4th.
Make sure he stays outside the lines as much as possible. Sit his ass. The coaches need to tell him he needs to work after practice. Give me a freak'n break. That dog don't hunt and I don't care how much they see during practice. Total BS. No one wants him--end of sentence. 4 Years name any 2 games that he dominated? I thought Judge said that you have to contribute..what can he do? Not a dominate route runner, below average hands, can't block worth a shit and doesn't play ST. He has speed...great that's helped us during his 4+ years so far. Please let him go end of season.
So they might as well keep him. Hope they can get May me a 4 for Zeitler he’s signed thru 22. If they could get a 6 for Golden. Also, Zeitler and Golden are two of our top three cap hits this year. Be nice to have them off the books.
Seems clear from Judge’s comments that he is very high on him. I’d trade him for a 3rd, if I had to guess the Giants won’t entertain unless they are offered a 2nd.
William Wallace at the end of Bravehart, after his flub led to choking another one away against the god damned Eagles
But the reality is, he’s still the only player on this offense the opposing defense has to remotely worry about, because of his speed.
I’d rather see him gone too as part of the rebuild, but that doesn’t mean just dumping him mid season. Unless we can get maybe a 3rd or better for him, which is doubtful
Because the anticipated return is too low and because Jones already has too few weapons to throw to. I think because the anticipated return is so low you err on the side of doing what’s best for building up Jones now. You don’t take away the few weapons that he has. You need to build him up and keep him moving forward not regressing. Maybe by the end of the year Engram improves his market value and you trade him in the off season.
Seattle might be a real good trading partner for Zeitler in a trade
is the girl of your dreams who you finally get to take out on a date and when you take her back to her apartment she slams the door in your face 50 times.
are there reports that he's lazy, a malcontent, or any other reason to think being on the Giants is the reason he is underwhelming?
Seems to me he's getting plenty of chances to showcase his ability, so he obviously is not in the coach's doghouse. That indicates he's putting in the work.
The problem is he simply comes up short too often. being on a different team isn't going to make him concentrate on catching, stop hearing foot steps, or relish blocking.
You could argue that taking him from the offense makes it tougher for Jones and much tougher to evaluate Jones - to the extent that it's not worth trading him. He dropped that ball and it sucked. But Kaden Smith isn't getting open like that in that spot - and even with the drop it was great to see DJ make that big time throw.
I don't think the return we could expect outweighs the benefit to DJ + the possibility the new coaching staff can get him on track.
Obviously the calculus changes if we're talking a 2nd or even a 3rd rounder.
Is the type of guy that shows up every day and dominates practice so I can see where the coaches keep saying “we can work with him, we can fix him etc...”. I can see where the coaches want to keep him.
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
This is where I hope Little Bill comes out of JJ...get rid of guys sooner rather than later! If he has any say in the matter, I’m hoping he’s seen enough and pushes for them to move on. At this point, EE is talented but the lack of production far outweighs his potential.
are there reports that he's lazy, a malcontent, or any other reason to think being on the Giants is the reason he is underwhelming?
Seems to me he's getting plenty of chances to showcase his ability, so he obviously is not in the coach's doghouse. That indicates he's putting in the work.
The problem is he simply comes up short too often. being on a different team isn't going to make him concentrate on catching, stop hearing foot steps, or relish blocking.
I think he's mentally toast as much as anything. A change of scenery and he might start making those consistent catchest at least. If he could do that he's a starting player in this league. There's teams that would be able to use him. Problem is if you are a strictly pass catching TE and aren't a great route runner, when the coordinators get you mismatches in scheme, you need to consistently catch the ball. Simple as that. The occasional big play doesn't overcome stopping the chains from moving.
the Giants just loving the guy and more of we need a better offer. As mentioned by others, the Giants have so few play makers and nothing in terms of legitimate second TE threat that getting rid of him would just hurt DJ and the passing game even more. I see that as the only reason he stays.
Zeitler needs to go and Tate can go as we can play younger guys in his stead. I would also like to see us move on from Tomlinson- can get us a decent draft pick in return and give more playing time to Austin Johnson who I think has flashed in his limited playing time and is cheap.
So they might as well keep him. Hope they can get May me a 4 for Zeitler he’s signed thru 22. If they could get a 6 for Golden. Also, Zeitler and Golden are two of our top three cap hits this year. Be nice to have them off the books.
Bingo, it’s all about unloading their contracts. Due over $25 million combined next year
Problem is nobody is going to want to pay them that either
... if it's known the Giants absolutely intend to dump him, it drives his value down.
Someone makes a good offer, and Engram is gone.
I don't think it even has to be that good. A 5th for Engram we would jump at; a 6th we would say yes; a 7th we would first protest; then argue; then make the deal.
Is the type of guy that shows up every day and dominates practice so I can see where the coaches keep saying “we can work with him, we can fix him etc...”. I can see where the coaches want to keep him.
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
Back in the day, Evan would have been called a "coach killer".
is so tough. I love SY, but have to post his write up on Engram- "His quickness off the like and near-top level ball skills will make him a quarterback’s best friend on third and reasonable. While his blocking impact may not be as high as some of the others, he is no slouch. The two time team captain leaves it all out on the field each week and his weaknesses can be somewhat hidden in most situations." Does the coach still believe this?
is so tough. I love SY, but have to post his write up on Engram- "His quickness off the like and near-top level ball skills will make him a quarterback’s best friend on third and reasonable. While his blocking impact may not be as high as some of the others, he is no slouch. The two time team captain leaves it all out on the field each week and his weaknesses can be somewhat hidden in most situations." Does the coach still believe this?
No. Engram has become the face of a losing team. When he has a chance to elevate the team by making a play, he fails. When the team needs him to be on the field, he's injured. There is a point in time when 'potential' shrinks into knowledge. Engram has passed that point. He is not a good fit for this team.
question is always compensation. Engram probably won't get a second contract from the Giants. His inconsistencies are maddening. But I assume no one is in favor of effectively giving him away for a sixth or a seventh.
Tate and Zeitler are different. I'd trade them for anything I could get, even a seventh.
I'd also consider trading Tomlinson and Peppers, but would want a lot more. Somebody on another thread said that the Bills were interested in one of our DTs.
Engram has obviously had the worst year of his career, and Kaden Smith appears to have regressed as well.
None of them can block even a little (I mean that's why signed they signed Toilolo... and he barely sees the field) and a huge part of why this running game is so putrid and Jones is constantly running for his life.
Says the Bengals are possibly shopping Carlos Dunlap. And we certainly need a pass rusher now. I could see Ole Dave thinking we still have a chance at the Least and giving up another pick for Dunlap.
I have never 'put on the pads', so you experienced guys feel free to give some feedback...
Someone with his size and athleticism, after this many years of average or below average play, is he being used the right way? Can't block...okay. But he will be 3-4 inches taller than the average CB, probably overall a longer reach, do we ever do higher passes for a 'jump ball'? After spending time watching Mike Evans (1-2" taller than EE I think?) at A&M, he became very effective at that type of play along the sidelines. It almost eliminates interception possibility (yes, DJ has to put the ball there, and have the time to do so...). If the people in charge are not going to deal him, we need to change what has not worked to this point. Any other thoughts on how to use a guy so he IS a weapon as opposed to a liability?
That is what its all about. Desire for the most part is uncoachable after awhile. Somebody with a character of high desire would have laid out and attempted to catch that ball Thursday night. To me that is all I wanted to see was the effort. That play, that throw and catch were the game. Evan Engram has no desire period, that is what I saw. Personally somebody like that I do not want on my team.
Is the type of guy that shows up every day and dominates practice so I can see where the coaches keep saying “we can work with him, we can fix him etc...”. I can see where the coaches want to keep him.
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
Back in the day, Evan would have been called a "coach killer".
Can’t argue against the label. Him catching one ball was the difference between Garrett calling his best game as a Giant HC vs another crushing loss.
In spots u need him. Putting eagles drop on the side, he doesn’t do the small stuff as far as 3rd down conversions in tight spots, too many 50/50
Balls aren’t caught.
Seriously the play against the eagles is one you set up all game
Shit like that is a coach killer
And we have garbage behind him
Thought Kaden smith might turn out to be competent, he hasn’t shown anything this yr
Worse than Ellison
Put a real TE on the ever growing laundry list of needs. Top of 2nd rd, if kid from penn state is there, have to consider hi
BPA
realize they're not going to get much for him and despite his shortcomings is a better offensive weapon than most of the others. I would ask if they do keep him, stop with the end-around with EE
RE: Trade everything you can for whatever you can get
may be more valuable than what they have been offered. You also are screwing yourself out of a potential comp pick if you sell him for a 6th. I'd want more than that, even if its in 22'.
Because he sure doesn't have good body positioning or ability to change direction or extend himself to make a catch or have good hand-eye coordination.
Anybody saying it's to help Jones are clearly not watching the games. Majority of the turnovers on the season revolve around Plays to Engram whether he is deflecting the ball because of his stonehands, running the wrong route, or being slow and lazy to get the ball when he actually runs the right route.
I would easily argue that getting rid of Engram and replacing him with Kaden Smith is a huge addition by subtraction for Jones and for the coaching staff as a whole . This isn't me saying this because he dropped the ball and cost the giants the game this past Thursday. This is almost a weekly occurrence at this point .
Him and Thomas are easily the 2 worst players on offense but Thomas is a rookie so he gets a little slack
I wouldn't say it's likely, though that's mostly the superstitious side of me -- he just seems like one of those upside horseshoes of a player, where there's a strong likelihood something bad will happen whenever he's involved.
Still though, he could be a part of a future rebound if he himself rebounds. I don't really hold his contribution to this terrible present against him too much -- I knew the present would be terrible anyway, and at least he's young enough to potentially be part of a good future.
Coaches always think they can fix a player - and sometimes a change of scenery helps. And scheme. And coaching.
I was quick to say pull the plug after TNF, but unless you can get something of value (4th?) I'd be inclined to keep him just to help out Jones the little Engram can.
But I would certainly consider dumping his this offseason.
since his value is nil. If Judge thinks he can work with him and get him to improve, then that's worth more than a 6th round pick. He has made plays. He has had good games. He has some talent. He has been inconsistent and injury-prone. But, so far healthy this year. I'd rather see what he can do over the last 9 games than throw him away for nothing. It's not like we are dripping with talent at TE, just waiting for a chance.
Translation: No one will give us a jock strap for this guy. Draft Choice? BAHAHAHAHA!
He's a warm body that can play the position (not well), and knows the system. That's it at this point. Stop torturing yourselves that Engram can be "fixed". He's been in the league long enough...if he had any game, he would have shown it by now. I'm sure he's gone once the team gets an average TE to replace him. They don't have that now.
really do. A place where differing opinions about the team we root for collide
As a fan I like to have an opinion as well. My opinion is most often based on what the professionals decide.
If this staff wants to keep Engram, that s ok by me.
The professionals have led us to the worst record in the league over the last 3.5 seasons. WORST. Dave Gettleman has never had any solid vision in building this team outside of “betta cultcha”.
Deandre Baker was a case in point: trade UP for a guy with character concerns and specializes in MAN coverage to play for a DC who mostly uses his corners in ZONE (at a point in the draft where there were 2-3 other CBs of similar value we could’ve waited to draft at #37 or drafted a better fit at #30). It made zero sense whatsoever.
Looking back, we probably could have just drafted BPA at every spot based on Mel freaking Kiper’s big board and we’d probably be better off. That shouldn’t be the case— we wouldn’t have needed a professional GM to do that. The point of a “professional” GM is because they’re supposed to know how to build a winning NFL football TEAM... Gettleman clearly doesn’t know how to do that in TODAY’s NFL.
You get him, his disappointing play and his 1st round salary for 8 games. After that he is a UFA or you pick up his 5th year at 6M...
Make no sense. If you want to try a reclamation project on him, just wait until he hits FA in the spring. No need to give up anything now. Engram has 0 value on the trade market.
That said, the only thing that makes any sense at all is for the Giants to work with him and try to turn him around. This season is lost anyway. Engram is a good project to see if you can make some soup out of chicken shit.
Evan Engram is NOT expected to be traded. Other teams have called, but he's not being shopped. The Giants view him as an explosive offensive weapon that is part of their future, even though it hasn't clicked yet this season. #Giants #NFL
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
In fairness this coaching staff has had half a season with him. If we are getting offers for a late round pick I can certainly see why they want to keep him and try getting through to him.
I’d love to see him dealt, but a 6th or 7th for his “talent” and potential to be Jones’ go to likely isn’t enough.
In the end I don’t care either way, unless you were to say we are getting offers for a 4th.
Tate id trade him for anything, you get anything for him at this point you take it.
Engram if they trade him fine, if they dont fine..
Sending out a signal like the coaching staff wants him could improve the outside offers from "what are kidding me?" to a 7th rounder.
Evan Engram.
He needs to be the very next Giant out the door.
Maybe he'll excel in a new environment.
But not here. Take whatever we can get and move on.
This
Seems clear from Judge’s comments that he is very high on him. I’d trade him for a 3rd, if I had to guess the Giants won’t entertain unless they are offered a 2nd.
As a fan I like to have an opinion as well. My opinion is most often based on what the professionals decide.
If this staff wants to keep Engram, that s ok by me.
But the reality is, he’s still the only player on this offense the opposing defense has to remotely worry about, because of his speed.
I’d rather see him gone too as part of the rebuild, but that doesn’t mean just dumping him mid season. Unless we can get maybe a 3rd or better for him, which is doubtful
Because the anticipated return is too low and because Jones already has too few weapons to throw to. I think because the anticipated return is so low you err on the side of doing what’s best for building up Jones now. You don’t take away the few weapons that he has. You need to build him up and keep him moving forward not regressing. Maybe by the end of the year Engram improves his market value and you trade him in the off season.
Seems to me he's getting plenty of chances to showcase his ability, so he obviously is not in the coach's doghouse. That indicates he's putting in the work.
The problem is he simply comes up short too often. being on a different team isn't going to make him concentrate on catching, stop hearing foot steps, or relish blocking.
I don't think the return we could expect outweighs the benefit to DJ + the possibility the new coaching staff can get him on track.
Obviously the calculus changes if we're talking a 2nd or even a 3rd rounder.
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
This is where I hope Little Bill comes out of JJ...get rid of guys sooner rather than later! If he has any say in the matter, I’m hoping he’s seen enough and pushes for them to move on. At this point, EE is talented but the lack of production far outweighs his potential.
Seems to me he's getting plenty of chances to showcase his ability, so he obviously is not in the coach's doghouse. That indicates he's putting in the work.
The problem is he simply comes up short too often. being on a different team isn't going to make him concentrate on catching, stop hearing foot steps, or relish blocking.
I think he's mentally toast as much as anything. A change of scenery and he might start making those consistent catchest at least. If he could do that he's a starting player in this league. There's teams that would be able to use him. Problem is if you are a strictly pass catching TE and aren't a great route runner, when the coordinators get you mismatches in scheme, you need to consistently catch the ball. Simple as that. The occasional big play doesn't overcome stopping the chains from moving.
Zeitler needs to go and Tate can go as we can play younger guys in his stead. I would also like to see us move on from Tomlinson- can get us a decent draft pick in return and give more playing time to Austin Johnson who I think has flashed in his limited playing time and is cheap.
Someone makes a good offer, and Engram is gone.
Bingo, it’s all about unloading their contracts. Due over $25 million combined next year
Someone makes a good offer, and Engram is gone.
I don't think it even has to be that good. A 5th for Engram we would jump at; a 6th we would say yes; a 7th we would first protest; then argue; then make the deal.
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
Back in the day, Evan would have been called a "coach killer".
“He sucks! Get him off the team!” is an emotional response, not a logical one.
Consider these facts:
Engram is one of the few weapons that Jones and the offense has.
There is no viable replacement for Engram if he were to be traded, as there might be for a player like Zeitler.
Despite the Giants’ record, they are still within striking distance in the current NFL East.
Given the points noted above, a trade of Engram would be a signal to the players that management has thrown in the towel for this season.
And because of his inconsistent play and current contract, Engram likely wouldn’t bring back that much in a trade at this point (5th or 6th round?).
Trading Engram is just not a logical move, unless a team was desperate and offered a 2nd or 3rd rounder.
No. Engram has become the face of a losing team. When he has a chance to elevate the team by making a play, he fails. When the team needs him to be on the field, he's injured. There is a point in time when 'potential' shrinks into knowledge. Engram has passed that point. He is not a good fit for this team.
Tate and Zeitler are different. I'd trade them for anything I could get, even a seventh.
I'd also consider trading Tomlinson and Peppers, but would want a lot more. Somebody on another thread said that the Bills were interested in one of our DTs.
yeah I said that in another thread. He runs fast and that's about it. He also runs really fast to the sideline...
Everyone thinks they can work with him.
Smh.
None of them can block even a little (I mean that's why signed they signed Toilolo... and he barely sees the field) and a huge part of why this running game is so putrid and Jones is constantly running for his life.
Well, they do have the great Mike Solari coaching their OL.... ; )
Someone with his size and athleticism, after this many years of average or below average play, is he being used the right way? Can't block...okay. But he will be 3-4 inches taller than the average CB, probably overall a longer reach, do we ever do higher passes for a 'jump ball'? After spending time watching Mike Evans (1-2" taller than EE I think?) at A&M, he became very effective at that type of play along the sidelines. It almost eliminates interception possibility (yes, DJ has to put the ball there, and have the time to do so...). If the people in charge are not going to deal him, we need to change what has not worked to this point. Any other thoughts on how to use a guy so he IS a weapon as opposed to a liability?
If/when the Giants become relevant again, it won't be with this roster. I'd make every single player available.
Why would anyone trade for a coach killer?
Take whatever you can for Evan Engram, he’s been here 4 season and hasn’t grown as a player. Time to move on.
Quote:
Is the type of guy that shows up every day and dominates practice so I can see where the coaches keep saying “we can work with him, we can fix him etc...”. I can see where the coaches want to keep him.
All that being said I think the kid needs a change of scenery. It just has not worked out for him here and we don’t have a system he works in.
Back in the day, Evan would have been called a "coach killer".
Can’t argue against the label. Him catching one ball was the difference between Garrett calling his best game as a Giant HC vs another crushing loss.
Balls aren’t caught.
Seriously the play against the eagles is one you set up all game
Shit like that is a coach killer
And we have garbage behind him
Thought Kaden smith might turn out to be competent, he hasn’t shown anything this yr
Worse than Ellison
Put a real TE on the ever growing laundry list of needs. Top of 2nd rd, if kid from penn state is there, have to consider hi
BPA
If/when the Giants become relevant again, it won't be with this roster. I'd make every single player available.
This. They are the worst team in football the last 3+ years. They should have allegiance to no one on the roster. Continue to draft new players.
Because he sure doesn't have good body positioning or ability to change direction or extend himself to make a catch or have good hand-eye coordination.
I would easily argue that getting rid of Engram and replacing him with Kaden Smith is a huge addition by subtraction for Jones and for the coaching staff as a whole . This isn't me saying this because he dropped the ball and cost the giants the game this past Thursday. This is almost a weekly occurrence at this point .
Him and Thomas are easily the 2 worst players on offense but Thomas is a rookie so he gets a little slack
Still though, he could be a part of a future rebound if he himself rebounds. I don't really hold his contribution to this terrible present against him too much -- I knew the present would be terrible anyway, and at least he's young enough to potentially be part of a good future.
Can't say the same about Zeitler and Tate.
They might need it,as he's fully capable of stifling Judge's routine press conference.
He could have a moment of clarity
Quote:
and he should be traded in the offseason.
Why would anyone trade for a coach killer?
Because someone's trash is another's gold.
Coaches always think they can fix a player - and sometimes a change of scenery helps. And scheme. And coaching.
I was quick to say pull the plug after TNF, but unless you can get something of value (4th?) I'd be inclined to keep him just to help out Jones the little Engram can.
But I would certainly consider dumping his this offseason.
I don't believe he's a player you will win with.
He's a warm body that can play the position (not well), and knows the system. That's it at this point. Stop torturing yourselves that Engram can be "fixed". He's been in the league long enough...if he had any game, he would have shown it by now. I'm sure he's gone once the team gets an average TE to replace him. They don't have that now.
As a fan I like to have an opinion as well. My opinion is most often based on what the professionals decide.
If this staff wants to keep Engram, that s ok by me.
The professionals have led us to the worst record in the league over the last 3.5 seasons. WORST. Dave Gettleman has never had any solid vision in building this team outside of “betta cultcha”.
Deandre Baker was a case in point: trade UP for a guy with character concerns and specializes in MAN coverage to play for a DC who mostly uses his corners in ZONE (at a point in the draft where there were 2-3 other CBs of similar value we could’ve waited to draft at #37 or drafted a better fit at #30). It made zero sense whatsoever.
Looking back, we probably could have just drafted BPA at every spot based on Mel freaking Kiper’s big board and we’d probably be better off. That shouldn’t be the case— we wouldn’t have needed a professional GM to do that. The point of a “professional” GM is because they’re supposed to know how to build a winning NFL football TEAM... Gettleman clearly doesn’t know how to do that in TODAY’s NFL.
You get him, his disappointing play and his 1st round salary for 8 games. After that he is a UFA or you pick up his 5th year at 6M...
Make no sense. If you want to try a reclamation project on him, just wait until he hits FA in the spring. No need to give up anything now. Engram has 0 value on the trade market.
That said, the only thing that makes any sense at all is for the Giants to work with him and try to turn him around. This season is lost anyway. Engram is a good project to see if you can make some soup out of chicken shit.
@JordanRaanan
Evan Engram is NOT expected to be traded. Other teams have called, but he's not being shopped. The Giants view him as an explosive offensive weapon that is part of their future, even though it hasn't clicked yet this season. #Giants #NFL