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Dalvin Tomlinson/Leonard Williams

CMicks3110 : 10/25/2020 8:59 am
I know I started a thread on this a few days ago, but I thought about this more. I really think we should keep both. If we cut/trade Zeitler, Tate, Solder, we're going to have a ton of cap room. Around $50 mil in 2021 and $140 mil in 2022.We can afford that splurging because most of the rest of our core is on their rookie deals.

Our defense has played very well, and I think with a major playmaker at ED, and a solid CB2, we're a young top 10 defense (really sucks about Baker since we'd be soo much closer to that)

But Tomlinson has been integral to our defense so far. He is a really good and really underrated player. Why give up on him and spend a 2nd round pick on his replacement? We have significant needs at WR1, CB2, ED, which I think really need to address at the beginning of the 2021 draft. I DO NOT want to spend draft capital on the strength of our team already. Lets keep it a strength, spend the money. We have the money to afford that luxury at this point given our cap situation, which is fantastic.
I like your thinking  
M.S. : 10/25/2020 9:09 am : link

But would we be committing too much salary cap to run-stuffers who are not natural pass rushers?
RE: I like your thinking  
adamg : 10/25/2020 9:15 am : link
In comment 15023696 M.S. said:
Quote:

But would we be committing too much salary cap to run-stuffers who are not natural pass rushers?


Williams gets after the passer. They're not playing the same position.
You don't pay Tomlinson  
Simms11 : 10/25/2020 9:20 am : link
if you feel Austin Johnson can legitimately replace him. Otherwise, I say sign them both. They have a nice rotation now. I agree that they need to use draft capital on other positions and not look to fill a gap on a position of strength.
BBI overrating the play of Giant Defensive Tackles  
LBH15 : 10/25/2020 9:38 am : link
thus far in 2020.

Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.

Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.

Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.
I would just load up at NT....as that role wears out quickly  
George from PA : 10/25/2020 9:47 am : link
L.Williams & D.Lawrence are the special ones....ADD a monster Edge!

This group will cause problems.

What we need to see the balance of season :

Peart added to OL and OL improving.

Jones must prove he belongs

Off season key needs:

A monster Edge

A solid corner

A stud WR.


RE: BBI overrating the play of Giant Defensive Tackles  
section125 : 10/25/2020 10:03 am : link
In comment 15023714 LBH15 said:
Quote:
thus far in 2020.

Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.

Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.

Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.


Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.
IMO  
Allen in CNJ : 10/25/2020 10:18 am : link
the D line is playing really well when they're on, but they have been somewhat inconsistent. LW, Dex, AJ, BJH and DT have been, for the most part good, and they are growing together. Honestly I want to see the growth continue as the seasons progresses.

And as for LW specifically, he has been very good - better than he was last year. Disruptive, in a lot of plays, and doing what he SHOULD be doing.
You Lost Me At  
Bernie : 10/25/2020 10:20 am : link
“Our defense has played very well”. This is a passing league now, so spending big money on two tackles who are best suited for stopping the run makes little sense. For me, the big question is which one do you keep, but not both. My guess is that LW has more versatility and DT will command bigger dollars elsewhere from teams who feel they are soft up the middle. I don’t think LW has that reputation around the league but the Giants like him better than DT if they have to choose.
I  
AcidTest : 10/25/2020 10:38 am : link
don't see us paying Tomlinson and Williams. That's too much money tied up in one position, especially since Lawrence will want a contract extension in a few years. I also like what Johnson has done so far in limited action.
The question is if you let one go who replaces them  
BillT : 10/25/2020 10:57 am : link
You need three good DLs to play a “3-4” or whatever “multiple” formations they use. If they let one go do you trust Hill to take over or do you get someone else who will either cost you big FA dollars or a very high draft pick. I’m for keeping who we have.
Johnson looks like a potential replacement for  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/25/2020 11:02 am : link
Tomlinson, if the Giants cant sign him at "their" number, and BJ Hill is more of a replacement part for LW, if they can't sign him. Both "replacement players" have played well in limited reps this year.

What's the status of Johnson? Is he on a one year deal or two right now?

I simply doubt they'd keep both, and the priority will be LW because of his versatility, I guess.
BlueLou  
BillT : 10/25/2020 11:11 am : link
Johnson is a FA after the season.
The Giants are currently  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/25/2020 11:31 am : link
21 in rushing yards per game.

They are trending better, but they're not great.
for all the resources gettleman put into it,  
japanhead : 10/25/2020 11:46 am : link
the DL has been a major disappointment this year. They get run on far too easily and look exhausted by the 4th. Seems like a situation where the whole is less than the sum of its parts.
The logic in the OP  
chopperhatch : 10/25/2020 12:24 pm : link
Is the logic Ive been using. Who else is there to pay? Zeitler may get cut as might Solder and Tate. I am really starting to doubt Saquon gets a 2nd contract here.

You keep a strength a strength. We have a nice tackling ILB in Blake. Fackrell looks good on the edge. But we need DL that keep them clean.
Dalvin Tomlinson is not a complete inside player  
Bob in Newburgh : 10/25/2020 12:29 pm : link
Unless you believe transition to a passing league is a mirage, he should not be paid like a foundation.
Look at our stats on 1st down and 3rd down on D  
BigBlueNH : 10/25/2020 1:04 pm : link
We've got great stats on 1st down because our DTs are doin their job. We've got terrible stats on 3rd down because we are weak at pash rush and in the secondary. We can't pay big bucks to LW, DT and Dexter, without taking resources away from the rest of the D. I don't trust Gettleman, but I'm sure Judge is aware of this and will make sure we don't. Either LW or DT, not both, will be brought back.
I'd use the Tomlinson or Williams $$$  
RAIN : 10/25/2020 1:42 pm : link
on an edge rusher, LB, or CB.

Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.
RE: RE: BBI overrating the play of Giant Defensive Tackles  
giantstock : 10/25/2020 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15023738 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15023714 LBH15 said:


Quote:


thus far in 2020.

Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.

Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.

Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.



Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.


I doubt they are.

IMO you have to consider the competition. The last 3 weeks they have gone against awful awful Offensive Lines.

And if they were ot have gone against better quality QB's vs Washington and most of 2nd half with Dallas and the Bears - if they went against more normal decent QB's they probably wouldn't have look as good as you think.

would bet a good chunk of change  
bc4life : 10/25/2020 2:50 pm : link
we are not keeping both. it is probably more likely that neither gets signed.
Giant DT play is one of the better positions in league  
bc4life : 10/25/2020 2:51 pm : link
just watch the film
RE: RE: BBI overrating the play of Giant Defensive Tackles  
bw in dc : 10/25/2020 3:08 pm : link
In comment 15023738 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15023714 LBH15 said:


Quote:


thus far in 2020.

Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.

Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.

Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.



Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.


Your translation is wrong. The translation is there is a very large supply if capable DTs in the pros already and in the college pipeline. There always is. So why over-pay for something in abundance unless it is an outlier talent like Donald? Makes zero sense to pay big dollars for multiple DTs...
Williams  
stretch234 : 10/25/2020 5:58 pm : link
He gets a bad rap here because of the trade. When you watch the game, he is the guy on the DL that teams look for. They hardly ever run to his side and he is usually doubled.

Tomlinson is a good player

Just find an edge guy and these guys would be so much better
RE: I'd use the Tomlinson or Williams $$$  
adamg : 10/25/2020 6:02 pm : link
In comment 15023952 RAIN said:
Quote:
on an edge rusher, LB, or CB.

Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.


You're confusing having money with having the ability to sign a quality ER. There are no ER in FA! We can keep the talent we have or overpay an old or bad ER. Your choice. I choose the proven quality.
I choose not overpaying for very good.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/25/2020 6:07 pm : link
We're 1-6 with leonard williams. We can be 1-6 without leonard williams.

RE: BlueLou  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/25/2020 6:36 pm : link
In comment 15023809 BillT said:
Quote:
Johnson is a FA after the season.


Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.

Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.

The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.

RE: I choose not overpaying for very good.  
Angel Eyes : 10/25/2020 7:49 pm : link
In comment 15024308 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
We're 1-6 with leonard williams. We can be 1-6 without leonard williams.

Well last year we were 2-6 when Gettleman traded for Williams. And we were 2-6 with him. Didn’t change much.
RE: RE: BlueLou  
giantstock : 10/25/2020 8:48 pm : link
In comment 15024338 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 15023809 BillT said:


Quote:


Johnson is a FA after the season.



Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.

Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.

The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.


Who is HOF player Michael Strahan on this DL?
RE: RE: I'd use the Tomlinson or Williams $$$  
Angel Eyes : 10/25/2020 9:12 pm : link
In comment 15024301 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 15023952 RAIN said:


Quote:


on an edge rusher, LB, or CB.

Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.



You're confusing having money with having the ability to sign a quality ER. There are no ER in FA! We can keep the talent we have or overpay an old or bad ER. Your choice. I choose the proven quality.

What is this talent at ER we've had for the last three years?
100% wrong  
GiantsFan84 : 10/25/2020 9:16 pm : link
you don't keep both. you trade both now for picks.

you don't invest big money in the DL for a 3-4. you take that money and get a really good CB, S, and LB and sign some cheap big fat guys to occupy blockers. the defense will be infinitely better than it is now.
RE: RE: BlueLou  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/25/2020 9:25 pm : link
In comment 15024338 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 15023809 BillT said:


Quote:


Johnson is a FA after the season.



Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.

Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.

The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.


Your points are very accurate, but I think the examples you used illustrate where things are going wrong.

That great DT play made the DE play possible. Robbins was a modest signing. Cofield and Joseph were drafted. They spent the money on the DE/pass rushers, and those guys were game changers. The DTs were role players. Important ones, but not more important than the pass rushers.

To be sure, you don't have a good defense without good DTs.

But you can't have a good defense if you blow your budget on DTs and expect to win with afterthought pass rushers.

RE: RE: RE: BlueLou  
Angel Eyes : 10/25/2020 9:49 pm : link
In comment 15024507 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15024338 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


In comment 15023809 BillT said:


Quote:


Johnson is a FA after the season.



Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.

Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.

The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.




Your points are very accurate, but I think the examples you used illustrate where things are going wrong.

That great DT play made the DE play possible. Robbins was a modest signing. Cofield and Joseph were drafted. They spent the money on the DE/pass rushers, and those guys were game changers. The DTs were role players. Important ones, but not more important than the pass rushers.

To be sure, you don't have a good defense without good DTs.

But you can't have a good defense if you blow your budget on DTs and expect to win with afterthought pass rushers.

So why does Gettleman think one can win with afterthought pass rushers? Nobody does well with afterthought pass rushers, especially the Giants.
RE: Williams  
Angel Eyes : 10/25/2020 10:21 pm : link
In comment 15024297 stretch234 said:
Quote:
He gets a bad rap here because of the trade. When you watch the game, he is the guy on the DL that teams look for. They hardly ever run to his side and he is usually doubled.

Tomlinson is a good player

Just find an edge guy and these guys would be so much better

That’s if Gettleman would even try to find an edge guy. He’s had three years and he’s only slapped a band-aid on the problem.
RE: 100% wrong  
bw in dc : 10/25/2020 10:34 pm : link
In comment 15024500 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
you don't keep both. you trade both now for picks.

you don't invest big money in the DL for a 3-4. you take that money and get a really good CB, S, and LB and sign some cheap big fat guys to occupy blockers. the defense will be infinitely better than it is now.


I’m good all in with that. There may not be an easier position to find solid, dependable players than DT. As I said earlier, they are all around the league; and college pipeline is dependable every year.
RE: I choose not overpaying for very good.  
JonC : 10/25/2020 10:38 pm : link
In comment 15024308 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
We're 1-6 with leonard williams. We can be 1-6 without leonard williams.


Ding ding
Both Tomlinson and Williams are good players  
.McL. : 10/26/2020 3:09 am : link
Williams play this year has been very good. But he isn't even considered atop ten DT across the league. To be elite he should be top 10. If he makes the top 20 its generally in the high teens.

Coming into this season these guys were generally ranked in and around the top ten. Most of them bring as much to the run defense as LW and significantly more to the pass rush.

There is no reason to pay LW as an elite talent as if he was a top 10 DT when he simply isn't. If he is willing to come in at about 14M, then ok, but no higher in my mind.
Sorry I meant to include this list of players  
.McL. : 10/26/2020 3:10 am : link
That coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.

Aaron Donald
Chris Jones
Fletcher Cox
DeForest Buckner
Geno Atkins
Jurrell Casey
Grady Jarrett
Kawann Short
D.J. Reader
Kenny Clark
Javon Hargrave
Calais Campbell
Cameron Heyward
Matt Ioannidis
Akiem Hicks
RE: RE: RE: I'd use the Tomlinson or Williams $$$  
adamg : 10/26/2020 3:38 am : link
In comment 15024497 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15024301 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 15023952 RAIN said:


Quote:


on an edge rusher, LB, or CB.

Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.



You're confusing having money with having the ability to sign a quality ER. There are no ER in FA! We can keep the talent we have or overpay an old or bad ER. Your choice. I choose the proven quality.


What is this talent at ER we've had for the last three years?


We don't have any. Which is partly why DG needs to go.
RE: Sorry I meant to include this list of players  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/26/2020 6:31 am : link
In comment 15024749 .McL. said:
Quote:
That coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.

Aaron Donald
Chris Jones
Fletcher Cox
DeForest Buckner
Geno Atkins
Jurrell Casey
Grady Jarrett
Kawann Short
D.J. Reader
Kenny Clark
Javon Hargrave
Calais Campbell
Cameron Heyward
Matt Ioannidis
Akiem Hicks


I think your list is flawed for 3 reasons. First, I'd ber that THIS YEAR Tomlinson and Williams have better PFF grades than more than half the players on your list. Second, what are the ages (and salaries) of each player on your list - and WHEN were they paid? (You pay more for players in FA than you do for extensions prior to FA, and you pay more for ascending talent than for talent likely to soon dwcline.) Third, and this is an EXTREMELY significant point, what's been the reliability of each of the players on your list? You can't win with guys riding the pine or on crutches on the sideline due to injuries.

To date, Williams and Tomlinson have barely missed a snap due to injury for their entire careers.

Again, I'm not advocating overpaying, and frankly I am not pleased with the way the Giants' FO has devolved into failing to ID their own talent and extending those players in a timely manner. Which in the long run saves cap space. Recall the timing and pay rate of both Osi's and Tuck's extensions, as examples.

It takes two to tango, so maybe these guys hitting free agency is on them and their agents as much as it is on Gettleman, but I hope something reasonable can be worked out with at least one of them, and the first priority is Williams.

At a fair price.
RE: RE: BBI overrating the play of Giant Defensive Tackles  
LBH15 : 10/26/2020 6:58 am : link
In comment 15023738 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15023714 LBH15 said:


Quote:


thus far in 2020.

Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.

Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.

Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.



Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.


Good try, but I think you missed some of the finer points.
Stop  
Dragon : 10/26/2020 7:58 am : link
Over rating our players these guys have been given starting spots because theirs no talent to replace them on the team not because their talented. We have a NT that’s been playing Edge because the other two guys are limited physically to be a true edge or NT. Why pay big bucks for limited ability that’s what’s killing this team Lawrence is wasting his talent playing edge. It would be better to have a good edge guy and a good DT sharing those positions as needed. This team is not about supper star talent it’s about having talent starting and behind each position.

Look at Barkley superior talent but injury has turned that position into a group of let’s see if I can still be a running back. Offensively going into the next season we hopefully have DJ, SB, Slayton, Smith, Thomas, Peart, Hernandez, Lemieux, Gates, & Gano. On defense we have Lawrence, Hill, McIntosh, Brown, Coughlin, Martinez, Bradberry, Holmes, Harper, Love, Williamson, McKinney, Ximines, Carter, Crowder & Dixon and that’s all there is.

Today not tomorrow you need to exodus all the other roster players for whatever they will bring or just say bye. Get young players on this roster it won’t be that bad at least then your truly building for the future not talking the same BS again. The New York Giants are a very bad team and organization right now it’s not going to get better until they admit that and take drastic steps to correct it. This is a young mans game bring in hungry young players stop wasting time tear it down start all over or continue to win 3-5 games for what five to ten more years?
RE: RE: Sorry I meant to include this list of players  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/27/2020 1:50 am : link
In comment 15024758 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 15024749 .McL. said:


Quote:


That coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.

Aaron Donald
Chris Jones
Fletcher Cox
DeForest Buckner
Geno Atkins
Jurrell Casey
Grady Jarrett
Kawann Short
D.J. Reader
Kenny Clark
Javon Hargrave
Calais Campbell
Cameron Heyward
Matt Ioannidis
Akiem Hicks



I think your list is flawed for 3 reasons. First, I'd ber that THIS YEAR Tomlinson and Williams have better PFF grades than more than half the players on your list.
At a fair price.


Well I finally looked it up. Like I said your list of players you claim are "better than" Tomlinson and Williams is about half total bullshit this year.

Here are the PFF ratings for the 2020 season to date. From my armchair, they echo what you see when you watch any of these guys plays... Within reason anyway.

First our 3 "starting" Giants' DL, in order. (But given reasonable confidence intervals, it's prolly fair to say they are all 3 performing +/- at the same level.

79.8 Tomlinson
76.3 Williams
75.8 Lawrence

All 3 are pretty clearly playing at top ten DL levels... Currently the other DL playing at their level - most from your list, but I added Arik Armstead - are the following:

77.6 Fletcher Cox
77.1 Grady Jarrett
76.4 Arik Armstead
74.4 Jurrel Casey
73.1 Calais Campbell

To note the obvious, Tomlinson's play thus far this year is BETTER THAN the above 5 pretty well acknowledged, and well paid, studs.

Williams and Lawrence have been rated on a par with those 5 and they are generally among the youngest of this group.

Graded above the Giants' 3 DL are a very select few:

90.5 Aaron Donald (in a class by himself, you don't need a rating service to deduce that.)
87.3 Cameron Heyward - like Donald, a considerably more experienced beast than the Giants' 3 pups.
83.8 DeForest Buckner - big $$$ guy
83.6 Chris Jones - huge $$$ guy

That's 4, count 'em, 4 guys with better ratings than the Giants' 3 DL.

But sure, dump 'em! We can go 3-13 with or without them.

But the Giants will NEVER GET BETTER following the strategy advocated by many here.

And your list had a lot of BS on it...

Randomly ordered:
50.2 Javon Hargreaves
62.5 Kenny Clark
43.5 Kawann Short!!!
63.2 Geno Atkins - well past prime
64.3 Akiem Hicks

Closer, but still inferior:
69.6 D.J. Reader
67.8 Matt Ioannidis

Your list contained 3 guys clearly performing better than the Giants' top 3 DL, and 7 guys CLEARLY PERFORMING WORSE IN 2020.

That's not even accounting for age, injuries, or arrows pointing up or down on each player...

Big Lou - good job.  
section125 : 10/27/2020 7:31 am : link
I have sat here and started thinking that the team will never get better if it keeps getting rid of it's better players to get younger and cheaper and thinking somehow all the new pieces will come together at the same time. If you do not retain some of the "older" worthy players the team will never advance.
I'm not against trading players for picks if it doesn't weaken the team or save serious cash. Yes Zeitler could go as could Tate. At least Zeitler is playing much better this year - not what WE thought when he was traded for, but still NFL average. Perhaps now that Gates appears to be rapidly improving Hernandez and Zeitler can concentrate on their jobs instead of watching the middle.
Leonard Williams is the one guy on the DL that is overpaid. He is very good, but not $16 mill good. I believe DTs are a dime a dozen in the draft.

Evan Engram is another guy I wouldn't mind seeing off for a good pick. But obviously the coaching staff sees something we do not. If you trust Judge and his staff, then you need to trust their judgement on Engram. Like all of BBI I am tired of potential unfulfilled. I have a feeling that unless a 3rd or low 4th round pick is offered, they see him through until the end of the year and rescind the 5th year offer if he doesn't produce from here on out. The focus is on him. He clearly knows he cost the Giants a "big" win - nobody else to blame or deflect to. Every player wants the chance to be the hero. He just blew his chance and he knows it. Ok, does that spur him to get the job done, or does he continue to fail? Judge promised he would teach and instruct players to improve their skill and performance. It is quite evident that Engram is not performing up to his ability. If a "TE" cannot block, then he better damn well be able to catch everything and abuse LBs and safeties after the catch. Have not seen it yet.
Blue Lou  
.McL. : 10/27/2020 7:43 am : link
Let me bold this for you. Reading comprehension is important.

Here is what I said about the list...

... coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.

I took the list from other sources.
Let me repeat [b]coming into the season[b]

1. The full season hasn't played out
2. PFF grades are BS, don't care about them
3. We don't know what injuries these guys might be playing through

I don't find your analysis compelling. To be fair, the list I made came from other people's analysis, not mine. However, they were fairly consistent and supported each other's assessments. So quibble with them.
One more thing  
.McL. : 10/27/2020 7:53 am : link
I never said dump any of them.

I said don't pay them top 10 money.

I would try to get under 14M per for Williams, but I would go to 14M. Any more than that would be a tough sell. Unless the player is producing a copious amount of sacks, the position is just not worth that much of an investment.

Also, DG has gotten 4 fairly similar players in Tomlinson, Williams, and Lawrence and add BJ Hill to that list. That is wayyy too much in the way of resources invested in guys on the DL none of whom will even sniff double digit sacks. It the wrong way to build the team in this day and age. Some of these guys have to go, and the Giants need to recoup something for them. Seriously, in another 1.5 years, are you going to shell out 45M to 50M per for these 3. That's what it's going to take to keep them all if you start paying Williams 18M. You realize that will be 25% of the cap right? For 3 guys that don't get more than a handful of sacks. Mind boggling to consider.
Not directed at you McL, but I wish I had a nickel every time  
LBH15 : 10/27/2020 8:39 am : link
somebody on BBI thought the Giants should sign Leonard Williams for something around $12-$14M per year.

Because if i had all those nickels, they would probably add up to the $18M per year he is looking for.

Trade him to the highest buyer before Nov 3. If Giants are lucky, maybe we can get back one the two picks wasted trading for him in the first place.

RE: Not directed at you McL, but I wish I had a nickel every time  
section125 : 10/27/2020 8:44 am : link
In comment 15025941 LBH15 said:
Quote:
somebody on BBI thought the Giants should sign Leonard Williams for something around $12-$14M per year.

Because if i had all those nickels, they would probably add up to the $18M per year he is looking for.

Trade him to the highest buyer before Nov 3. If Giants are lucky, maybe we can get back one the two picks wasted trading for him in the first place.


And the cycle would continue....
If LW would sign for $14M per  
JonC : 10/27/2020 8:54 am : link
it would've been done already.
What cycle is that?  
LBH15 : 10/27/2020 8:54 am : link
.
My dear McL, I am not quibbling with your list,  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/27/2020 12:40 pm : link
I blew it up like Hiroshima. Most of it.

And just to be clear, I read and understood your caveat perfectly, but ignored it. Why? Because we are talking about salaries going FORWARD, not based on past performances from the many guys on your list well more experienced and older than Williams and Tomlinson.

Then you haul out the old "PFF is garbage argument".

How so? Is Donald not the best DL in the NFL, in a class by himself just as PFF grades him?

Do you seriously argue with the next few top guys (Armstead, Heyward) rated above the Giants DL? The five guys in the same bracket quality of play wise as the Giants' guys...

Tell me who they are wrong about pally.

And put your list you know where.

RE: What cycle is that?  
section125 : 10/27/2020 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15025953 LBH15 said:
Quote:
.


1.)Get a quality player and let him go before re-signing.

2.) Get a quality player, decide now is not the time to re-sign because the talent around him is insufficient. In that way, they never keep quality players long enough to have enough on the team at one time.

Somehow, they need to start keeping better than average players. Yes, you cannot over pay, but as is always said on BBI, but in 3 years this will not be expensive or CAP breaking,

Football is a numbers game. You get seven draft picks and 3-5 FAs per year, 10-12 UDFAs and a few off the discard heap. Normal turnover is 33%, IIRC.

At what point does a team make a stand and retain its better players.
RE: RE: What cycle is that?  
LBH15 : 10/27/2020 1:03 pm : link
In comment 15026249 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15025953 LBH15 said:


Quote:


.



1.)Get a quality player and let him go before re-signing.

2.) Get a quality player, decide now is not the time to re-sign because the talent around him is insufficient. In that way, they never keep quality players long enough to have enough on the team at one time.

Somehow, they need to start keeping better than average players. Yes, you cannot over pay, but as is always said on BBI, but in 3 years this will not be expensive or CAP breaking,

Football is a numbers game. You get seven draft picks and 3-5 FAs per year, 10-12 UDFAs and a few off the discard heap. Normal turnover is 33%, IIRC.

At what point does a team make a stand and retain its better players.


At no point did I ever suggest the Giants should not sign Leonard Williams. He has been on the team for a year now...sign him. Go right ahead. He was targeted as a key player to build around. We traded two draft picks for him in the middle of a rebuilding period. The team went thru free agency and a draft and didn't seemingly choose anybody new to replace him. So go sign him.

What the hell is the problem Section125?

RE: My dear McL, I am not quibbling with your list,  
.McL. : 10/27/2020 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15026229 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
I blew it up like Hiroshima. Most of it.

And just to be clear, I read and understood your caveat perfectly, but ignored it. Why? Because we are talking about salaries going FORWARD, not based on past performances from the many guys on your list well more experienced and older than Williams and Tomlinson.

Then you haul out the old "PFF is garbage argument".

How so? Is Donald not the best DL in the NFL, in a class by himself just as PFF grades him?

Do you seriously argue with the next few top guys (Armstead, Heyward) rated above the Giants DL? The five guys in the same bracket quality of play wise as the Giants' guys...

Tell me who they are wrong about pally.

And put your list you know where.

Let me make this clear again. IT'S NOT MY LIST
It's a list based on what other analysts have said.

Without know all the fact regarding their play this year like health, I'm accepting PFF's analysis straight up, as if I would ever accept their analysis, which is generally garbage anyway. PFF's ratings often don't pass the eye test. So you will have to do better to impress me. That doesn't mean they are always wrong, just often. And yes, when I got that list I thought some of them were over the hill as well, but the over the hill ones were recently top DTs and produced far more than LW ever has. The over the hill ones should not be getting top 10 money at thispoint either.
RE: If LW would sign for $14M per  
.McL. : 10/27/2020 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15025952 JonC said:
Quote:
it would've been done already.

agreed
Which is why it wasn't a smart trade.
If DG was going to make this trade it should have been a trade and sign deal. Never do this trade without a deal in place.
RE: Blue Lou  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/28/2020 1:26 pm : link
Quote:

Here is what I said about the list...

... coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.

I took the list from other sources.
Let me repeat coming into the season

1. The full season hasn't played out
2. PFF grades are BS, don't care about them
3. We don't know what injuries these guys might be playing through

I don't find your analysis compelling. To be fair, the list I made came from other people's analysis, not mine. However, they were fairly consistent and supported each other's assessments. So quibble with them.


OK, let's say my listing of PFF's grades isn't enough to change your stance about what Williams (or Tomlinson) are worth, per annual avg salary.

Since you have been backing out like a scared crawdaddy from any suggestion that the list of players YOU provided is your list and since you haven't offered a single player from 13 whose PFF grade is actually blatantly wrong, I have one question for you.

Since you acknowledge signing Williams (and/or Tomlinson) IS RIGHT at the correct price, what price do you suggest?

You have already suggested 14 mil per year for Willliams, but it seems fairly obvious he's outperforming that level, and is indeed a top 10 performer at his postion, as is DT.

I think you have simply barked up the wrong tree (with your list and claim that Williams "clearly isn't a top 10 DL"), and that's my beef with your nonsense.

The better argument (obviously JonC makes this one) is that paying market price for DL, and specifically DTs, is a poor allocation of resources.

I'm still unquiet about gutting one of the few strengths of this team by letting Williams and DT walk.
Both guys are legit NFL starters and good players  
arniefez : 10/28/2020 1:36 pm : link
neither guy is a top 10 player at their position. Maybe not even top 15. Because they don't/can't make plays on 3rd downs.

So many people here even football educated people are raving about these two and Martinez. Meanwhile when the other team needs to run for first downs the Giants can't stop them and these guys are supposed to be premier run stoppers according to BBI they are not. They're good nothing more and when the other team wants to pass for first downs they can't get a pass rush.

If the Giants had two very good pass rushers instead of DT and LW they'd have 2, 3 or 4 more wins. Run stuffer DLs are easy to find and cheap. Paying those guys premium pass rusher dollars is one of the biggest reasons the Giants suck.
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