I know I started a thread on this a few days ago, but I thought about this more. I really think we should keep both. If we cut/trade Zeitler, Tate, Solder, we're going to have a ton of cap room. Around $50 mil in 2021 and $140 mil in 2022.We can afford that splurging because most of the rest of our core is on their rookie deals.
Our defense has played very well, and I think with a major playmaker at ED, and a solid CB2, we're a young top 10 defense (really sucks about Baker since we'd be soo much closer to that)
But Tomlinson has been integral to our defense so far. He is a really good and really underrated player. Why give up on him and spend a 2nd round pick on his replacement? We have significant needs at WR1, CB2, ED, which I think really need to address at the beginning of the 2021 draft. I DO NOT want to spend draft capital on the strength of our team already. Lets keep it a strength, spend the money. We have the money to afford that luxury at this point given our cap situation, which is fantastic.
But would we be committing too much salary cap to run-stuffers who are not natural pass rushers?
But would we be committing too much salary cap to run-stuffers who are not natural pass rushers?
Williams gets after the passer. They're not playing the same position.
Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.
Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.
Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.
This group will cause problems.
What we need to see the balance of season :
Peart added to OL and OL improving.
Jones must prove he belongs
Off season key needs:
A monster Edge
A solid corner
A stud WR.
Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.
Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.
Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.
Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.
And as for LW specifically, he has been very good - better than he was last year. Disruptive, in a lot of plays, and doing what he SHOULD be doing.
What's the status of Johnson? Is he on a one year deal or two right now?
I simply doubt they'd keep both, and the priority will be LW because of his versatility, I guess.
They are trending better, but they're not great.
You keep a strength a strength. We have a nice tackling ILB in Blake. Fackrell looks good on the edge. But we need DL that keep them clean.
Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.
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thus far in 2020.
Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.
Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.
Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.
Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.
I doubt they are.
IMO you have to consider the competition. The last 3 weeks they have gone against awful awful Offensive Lines.
And if they were ot have gone against better quality QB's vs Washington and most of 2nd half with Dallas and the Bears - if they went against more normal decent QB's they probably wouldn't have look as good as you think.
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thus far in 2020.
Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.
Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.
Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.
Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.
Your translation is wrong. The translation is there is a very large supply if capable DTs in the pros already and in the college pipeline. There always is. So why over-pay for something in abundance unless it is an outlier talent like Donald? Makes zero sense to pay big dollars for multiple DTs...
Tomlinson is a good player
Just find an edge guy and these guys would be so much better
Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.
You're confusing having money with having the ability to sign a quality ER. There are no ER in FA! We can keep the talent we have or overpay an old or bad ER. Your choice. I choose the proven quality.
Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.
Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.
The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.
Well last year we were 2-6 when Gettleman traded for Williams. And we were 2-6 with him. Didn’t change much.
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Johnson is a FA after the season.
Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.
Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.
The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.
Who is HOF player Michael Strahan on this DL?
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on an edge rusher, LB, or CB.
Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.
You're confusing having money with having the ability to sign a quality ER. There are no ER in FA! We can keep the talent we have or overpay an old or bad ER. Your choice. I choose the proven quality.
What is this talent at ER we've had for the last three years?
you don't invest big money in the DL for a 3-4. you take that money and get a really good CB, S, and LB and sign some cheap big fat guys to occupy blockers. the defense will be infinitely better than it is now.
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Johnson is a FA after the season.
Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.
Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.
The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.
Your points are very accurate, but I think the examples you used illustrate where things are going wrong.
That great DT play made the DE play possible. Robbins was a modest signing. Cofield and Joseph were drafted. They spent the money on the DE/pass rushers, and those guys were game changers. The DTs were role players. Important ones, but not more important than the pass rushers.
To be sure, you don't have a good defense without good DTs.
But you can't have a good defense if you blow your budget on DTs and expect to win with afterthought pass rushers.
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In comment 15023809 BillT said:
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Johnson is a FA after the season.
Point taken. My point is the Giants may have options on their own roster right now, and Johnson would likely be available at a lower rate than Dalvin.
Obviously you don't want to overpay ANYONE. But history tells us that without ++ DT play, the Giants wont win shit. The last 2 victorious SB teams had an excellent Fred Robbins and very good Cofield in '08, and 2 studs in Joseph and Canty (with solid back up Bernard) in '11.
The team's decline coincided with declining play at DT, and I think the relationship was causal.
Your points are very accurate, but I think the examples you used illustrate where things are going wrong.
That great DT play made the DE play possible. Robbins was a modest signing. Cofield and Joseph were drafted. They spent the money on the DE/pass rushers, and those guys were game changers. The DTs were role players. Important ones, but not more important than the pass rushers.
To be sure, you don't have a good defense without good DTs.
But you can't have a good defense if you blow your budget on DTs and expect to win with afterthought pass rushers.
So why does Gettleman think one can win with afterthought pass rushers? Nobody does well with afterthought pass rushers, especially the Giants.
Tomlinson is a good player
Just find an edge guy and these guys would be so much better
That’s if Gettleman would even try to find an edge guy. He’s had three years and he’s only slapped a band-aid on the problem.
you don't invest big money in the DL for a 3-4. you take that money and get a really good CB, S, and LB and sign some cheap big fat guys to occupy blockers. the defense will be infinitely better than it is now.
I’m good all in with that. There may not be an easier position to find solid, dependable players than DT. As I said earlier, they are all around the league; and college pipeline is dependable every year.
Ding ding
Coming into this season these guys were generally ranked in and around the top ten. Most of them bring as much to the run defense as LW and significantly more to the pass rush.
There is no reason to pay LW as an elite talent as if he was a top 10 DT when he simply isn't. If he is willing to come in at about 14M, then ok, but no higher in my mind.
Aaron Donald
Chris Jones
Fletcher Cox
DeForest Buckner
Geno Atkins
Jurrell Casey
Grady Jarrett
Kawann Short
D.J. Reader
Kenny Clark
Javon Hargrave
Calais Campbell
Cameron Heyward
Matt Ioannidis
Akiem Hicks
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In comment 15023952 RAIN said:
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on an edge rusher, LB, or CB.
Austin Johnson/BJ Hill and draft pick can hold it down. Not sure we can afford both and move the defense to the next level.
You're confusing having money with having the ability to sign a quality ER. There are no ER in FA! We can keep the talent we have or overpay an old or bad ER. Your choice. I choose the proven quality.
What is this talent at ER we've had for the last three years?
We don't have any. Which is partly why DG needs to go.
Aaron Donald
Chris Jones
Fletcher Cox
DeForest Buckner
Geno Atkins
Jurrell Casey
Grady Jarrett
Kawann Short
D.J. Reader
Kenny Clark
Javon Hargrave
Calais Campbell
Cameron Heyward
Matt Ioannidis
Akiem Hicks
I think your list is flawed for 3 reasons. First, I'd ber that THIS YEAR Tomlinson and Williams have better PFF grades than more than half the players on your list. Second, what are the ages (and salaries) of each player on your list - and WHEN were they paid? (You pay more for players in FA than you do for extensions prior to FA, and you pay more for ascending talent than for talent likely to soon dwcline.) Third, and this is an EXTREMELY significant point, what's been the reliability of each of the players on your list? You can't win with guys riding the pine or on crutches on the sideline due to injuries.
To date, Williams and Tomlinson have barely missed a snap due to injury for their entire careers.
Again, I'm not advocating overpaying, and frankly I am not pleased with the way the Giants' FO has devolved into failing to ID their own talent and extending those players in a timely manner. Which in the long run saves cap space. Recall the timing and pay rate of both Osi's and Tuck's extensions, as examples.
It takes two to tango, so maybe these guys hitting free agency is on them and their agents as much as it is on Gettleman, but I hope something reasonable can be worked out with at least one of them, and the first priority is Williams.
At a fair price.
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thus far in 2020.
Watch some of the other games today and you will see guys doing very similar work in trenches. Many of which you will have never heard their names before and they don't command big dollars.
Giants have enough options with DT unit that they could keep several of their guys, maybe add another rotational guy, and not have to pay both Tomlinson and Williams.
Should be planning to trade one of them and sign the other. Just need to figure out the highest value to receive from this combination.
Let me translate this - The Giants DTs are playing as well as other teams DTs. We don't know their names, because who the heck knows the names of other DTs besides Donald and Quinn, and somehow that makes other teams no name DTs better...so God forbid the Giants want to keep DTs that actually play well. Let's get rid of them and pick up castoffs from other teams so that next year BBI can bitch about not re-signing their own DTs.
Good try, but I think you missed some of the finer points.
Look at Barkley superior talent but injury has turned that position into a group of let’s see if I can still be a running back. Offensively going into the next season we hopefully have DJ, SB, Slayton, Smith, Thomas, Peart, Hernandez, Lemieux, Gates, & Gano. On defense we have Lawrence, Hill, McIntosh, Brown, Coughlin, Martinez, Bradberry, Holmes, Harper, Love, Williamson, McKinney, Ximines, Carter, Crowder & Dixon and that’s all there is.
Today not tomorrow you need to exodus all the other roster players for whatever they will bring or just say bye. Get young players on this roster it won’t be that bad at least then your truly building for the future not talking the same BS again. The New York Giants are a very bad team and organization right now it’s not going to get better until they admit that and take drastic steps to correct it. This is a young mans game bring in hungry young players stop wasting time tear it down start all over or continue to win 3-5 games for what five to ten more years?
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That coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.
Aaron Donald
Chris Jones
Fletcher Cox
DeForest Buckner
Geno Atkins
Jurrell Casey
Grady Jarrett
Kawann Short
D.J. Reader
Kenny Clark
Javon Hargrave
Calais Campbell
Cameron Heyward
Matt Ioannidis
Akiem Hicks
I think your list is flawed for 3 reasons. First, I'd ber that THIS YEAR Tomlinson and Williams have better PFF grades than more than half the players on your list.
At a fair price.
Well I finally looked it up. Like I said your list of players you claim are "better than" Tomlinson and Williams is about half total bullshit this year.
Here are the PFF ratings for the 2020 season to date. From my armchair, they echo what you see when you watch any of these guys plays... Within reason anyway.
First our 3 "starting" Giants' DL, in order. (But given reasonable confidence intervals, it's prolly fair to say they are all 3 performing +/- at the same level.
79.8 Tomlinson
76.3 Williams
75.8 Lawrence
All 3 are pretty clearly playing at top ten DL levels... Currently the other DL playing at their level - most from your list, but I added Arik Armstead - are the following:
77.6 Fletcher Cox
77.1 Grady Jarrett
76.4 Arik Armstead
74.4 Jurrel Casey
73.1 Calais Campbell
To note the obvious, Tomlinson's play thus far this year is BETTER THAN the above 5 pretty well acknowledged, and well paid, studs.
Williams and Lawrence have been rated on a par with those 5 and they are generally among the youngest of this group.
Graded above the Giants' 3 DL are a very select few:
90.5 Aaron Donald (in a class by himself, you don't need a rating service to deduce that.)
87.3 Cameron Heyward - like Donald, a considerably more experienced beast than the Giants' 3 pups.
83.8 DeForest Buckner - big $$$ guy
83.6 Chris Jones - huge $$$ guy
That's 4, count 'em, 4 guys with better ratings than the Giants' 3 DL.
But sure, dump 'em! We can go 3-13 with or without them.
But the Giants will NEVER GET BETTER following the strategy advocated by many here.
And your list had a lot of BS on it...
Randomly ordered:
50.2 Javon Hargreaves
62.5 Kenny Clark
43.5 Kawann Short!!!
63.2 Geno Atkins - well past prime
64.3 Akiem Hicks
Closer, but still inferior:
69.6 D.J. Reader
67.8 Matt Ioannidis
Your list contained 3 guys clearly performing better than the Giants' top 3 DL, and 7 guys CLEARLY PERFORMING WORSE IN 2020.
That's not even accounting for age, injuries, or arrows pointing up or down on each player...
I'm not against trading players for picks if it doesn't weaken the team or save serious cash. Yes Zeitler could go as could Tate. At least Zeitler is playing much better this year - not what WE thought when he was traded for, but still NFL average. Perhaps now that Gates appears to be rapidly improving Hernandez and Zeitler can concentrate on their jobs instead of watching the middle.
Leonard Williams is the one guy on the DL that is overpaid. He is very good, but not $16 mill good. I believe DTs are a dime a dozen in the draft.
Evan Engram is another guy I wouldn't mind seeing off for a good pick. But obviously the coaching staff sees something we do not. If you trust Judge and his staff, then you need to trust their judgement on Engram. Like all of BBI I am tired of potential unfulfilled. I have a feeling that unless a 3rd or low 4th round pick is offered, they see him through until the end of the year and rescind the 5th year offer if he doesn't produce from here on out. The focus is on him. He clearly knows he cost the Giants a "big" win - nobody else to blame or deflect to. Every player wants the chance to be the hero. He just blew his chance and he knows it. Ok, does that spur him to get the job done, or does he continue to fail? Judge promised he would teach and instruct players to improve their skill and performance. It is quite evident that Engram is not performing up to his ability. If a "TE" cannot block, then he better damn well be able to catch everything and abuse LBs and safeties after the catch. Have not seen it yet.
Here is what I said about the list...
... coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.
I took the list from other sources.
Let me repeat [b]coming into the season[b]
1. The full season hasn't played out
2. PFF grades are BS, don't care about them
3. We don't know what injuries these guys might be playing through
I don't find your analysis compelling. To be fair, the list I made came from other people's analysis, not mine. However, they were fairly consistent and supported each other's assessments. So quibble with them.
I said don't pay them top 10 money.
I would try to get under 14M per for Williams, but I would go to 14M. Any more than that would be a tough sell. Unless the player is producing a copious amount of sacks, the position is just not worth that much of an investment.
Also, DG has gotten 4 fairly similar players in Tomlinson, Williams, and Lawrence and add BJ Hill to that list. That is wayyy too much in the way of resources invested in guys on the DL none of whom will even sniff double digit sacks. It the wrong way to build the team in this day and age. Some of these guys have to go, and the Giants need to recoup something for them. Seriously, in another 1.5 years, are you going to shell out 45M to 50M per for these 3. That's what it's going to take to keep them all if you start paying Williams 18M. You realize that will be 25% of the cap right? For 3 guys that don't get more than a handful of sacks. Mind boggling to consider.
Because if i had all those nickels, they would probably add up to the $18M per year he is looking for.
Trade him to the highest buyer before Nov 3. If Giants are lucky, maybe we can get back one the two picks wasted trading for him in the first place.
Because if i had all those nickels, they would probably add up to the $18M per year he is looking for.
Trade him to the highest buyer before Nov 3. If Giants are lucky, maybe we can get back one the two picks wasted trading for him in the first place.
And the cycle would continue....
And just to be clear, I read and understood your caveat perfectly, but ignored it. Why? Because we are talking about salaries going FORWARD, not based on past performances from the many guys on your list well more experienced and older than Williams and Tomlinson.
Then you haul out the old "PFF is garbage argument".
How so? Is Donald not the best DL in the NFL, in a class by himself just as PFF grades him?
Do you seriously argue with the next few top guys (Armstead, Heyward) rated above the Giants DL? The five guys in the same bracket quality of play wise as the Giants' guys...
Tell me who they are wrong about pally.
And put your list you know where.
1.)Get a quality player and let him go before re-signing.
2.) Get a quality player, decide now is not the time to re-sign because the talent around him is insufficient. In that way, they never keep quality players long enough to have enough on the team at one time.
Somehow, they need to start keeping better than average players. Yes, you cannot over pay, but as is always said on BBI, but in 3 years this will not be expensive or CAP breaking,
Football is a numbers game. You get seven draft picks and 3-5 FAs per year, 10-12 UDFAs and a few off the discard heap. Normal turnover is 33%, IIRC.
At what point does a team make a stand and retain its better players.
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.
1.)Get a quality player and let him go before re-signing.
2.) Get a quality player, decide now is not the time to re-sign because the talent around him is insufficient. In that way, they never keep quality players long enough to have enough on the team at one time.
Somehow, they need to start keeping better than average players. Yes, you cannot over pay, but as is always said on BBI, but in 3 years this will not be expensive or CAP breaking,
Football is a numbers game. You get seven draft picks and 3-5 FAs per year, 10-12 UDFAs and a few off the discard heap. Normal turnover is 33%, IIRC.
At what point does a team make a stand and retain its better players.
At no point did I ever suggest the Giants should not sign Leonard Williams. He has been on the team for a year now...sign him. Go right ahead. He was targeted as a key player to build around. We traded two draft picks for him in the middle of a rebuilding period. The team went thru free agency and a draft and didn't seemingly choose anybody new to replace him. So go sign him.
What the hell is the problem Section125?
And just to be clear, I read and understood your caveat perfectly, but ignored it. Why? Because we are talking about salaries going FORWARD, not based on past performances from the many guys on your list well more experienced and older than Williams and Tomlinson.
Then you haul out the old "PFF is garbage argument".
How so? Is Donald not the best DL in the NFL, in a class by himself just as PFF grades him?
Do you seriously argue with the next few top guys (Armstead, Heyward) rated above the Giants DL? The five guys in the same bracket quality of play wise as the Giants' guys...
Tell me who they are wrong about pally.
And put your list you know where.
Let me make this clear again. IT'S NOT MY LIST
It's a list based on what other analysts have said.
Without know all the fact regarding their play this year like health, I'm accepting PFF's analysis straight up, as if I would ever accept their analysis, which is generally garbage anyway. PFF's ratings often don't pass the eye test. So you will have to do better to impress me. That doesn't mean they are always wrong, just often. And yes, when I got that list I thought some of them were over the hill as well, but the over the hill ones were recently top DTs and produced far more than LW ever has. The over the hill ones should not be getting top 10 money at thispoint either.
agreed
Which is why it wasn't a smart trade.
If DG was going to make this trade it should have been a trade and sign deal. Never do this trade without a deal in place.
Here is what I said about the list...
... coming into the season were in and around the top ten. This is a compilation from about 8 or 9 different rankings/analysis.
I took the list from other sources.
Let me repeat coming into the season
1. The full season hasn't played out
2. PFF grades are BS, don't care about them
3. We don't know what injuries these guys might be playing through
I don't find your analysis compelling. To be fair, the list I made came from other people's analysis, not mine. However, they were fairly consistent and supported each other's assessments. So quibble with them.
OK, let's say my listing of PFF's grades isn't enough to change your stance about what Williams (or Tomlinson) are worth, per annual avg salary.
Since you have been backing out like a scared crawdaddy from any suggestion that the list of players YOU provided is your list and since you haven't offered a single player from 13 whose PFF grade is actually blatantly wrong, I have one question for you.
Since you acknowledge signing Williams (and/or Tomlinson) IS RIGHT at the correct price, what price do you suggest?
You have already suggested 14 mil per year for Willliams, but it seems fairly obvious he's outperforming that level, and is indeed a top 10 performer at his postion, as is DT.
I think you have simply barked up the wrong tree (with your list and claim that Williams "clearly isn't a top 10 DL"), and that's my beef with your nonsense.
The better argument (obviously JonC makes this one) is that paying market price for DL, and specifically DTs, is a poor allocation of resources.
I'm still unquiet about gutting one of the few strengths of this team by letting Williams and DT walk.
So many people here even football educated people are raving about these two and Martinez. Meanwhile when the other team needs to run for first downs the Giants can't stop them and these guys are supposed to be premier run stoppers according to BBI they are not. They're good nothing more and when the other team wants to pass for first downs they can't get a pass rush.
If the Giants had two very good pass rushers instead of DT and LW they'd have 2, 3 or 4 more wins. Run stuffer DLs are easy to find and cheap. Paying those guys premium pass rusher dollars is one of the biggest reasons the Giants suck.