I was listening to Jordan Ranaan's podcast (Breaking Big Blue) and he had on Adam Caplan and Jeff Moster (sp?) from the Phila media to preview Thursday's game.
They all agreed that Wentz is the best QB in the NFC East, now that Dak is out. Caplan interrupted to state that his contacts among other NFL teams are all very high on Daniel Jones, stating that the belief is that he is a franchise QB and long-term NFL starter. They believe that getting his Oline fixed, along with his turnovers will get him over the top.
It was refreshing to hear what NFL front offices think of Jones vs the media, and our worst fears as fans.
Seems like Schuplinski has got to focus on DJs pocket awareness, maybe a "shot clock" something to get him to develop that sense of what's going on around him.
Certainly hope so, but boy that seems like quite a stretch for a qb who has a lot to work on.
Yes. Same goes for Lawrence. And the same went for Leinert, Jamarcus Russell, Rosen, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, and so on.
I'm glad you brought up Lawrence, actually.
The Clemson program is a recruiting machine and they are loaded everywhere. So we should absolutely consider that when evaluating Lawrence.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I'm going to judge him on the Buccaneers game FORWARD and my reasoning is that the coaches have had extra time (10.5 days or so) to review the season, coach up where necessary (Thomas, Peart esp.); and, develop a gameplan where they execute and don't make as many mistakes.
Jones has one WR of merit in Slayton and an "average" guy in Shepard. Jones has no real running game and in fact he is the running game as I believe he leads the team in rush yards by a decent margin.
Losing Barkley really hurt this offense cause he opened things up for others AND he could really catch those short dumpoffs in the flat where anything could happen due to his speed. It is what it is and injuries are a big part of the NFL, you move on.
What I'm looking for from Jones is 1. less fumbles despite duress, 2. No "dumb" inerception - the Engram interception was on him not Jones iMHO 3. the deep ball accuracy to Slayton and possibly Engram if he ever gets his head out of his ass with those drops, 4. right adjustments and drop backs (steps) so he isn't killed by the OL as much.
I think Judge is a good HC who just doesn't have any Top End talent outside of possibly Bradberry on defense.
We have a core group to build around. We must hope that by season's end we know that Thomas and Peart can be quality starting OT's in this league; we must know what we have in Lemiuex cause Zeitler isn't worth his paycheck anymore; and, we have to re-sign and retain the players that fit the future & system. We will purge the team of contracts and players that don't fit.
We need to draft well and sign the right UFA's to fill major holes; however, we should NOT sign big name UFA's like a Dupree to sick serious money as we are in rebuild mode. I'd prefer to build through the draft.
We could win this division next year if Barkley comes back strong; the OL is fixed & cohesive; and, we get that WR, CB and possibly ER to help via UFA & Draft & Development of youth.
Jones is our future and I am confident in that.
Ever correct his chronic fumbling problem?
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
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In the last 20 years or more that has what Fields appears to have. None have got my attention as a top of the draft QB and potential NFL star. Not Haskins, Pryor, Barrett, Cardale Jones, none of them. Go through the list. None have the complete package that Fields has. There's a lot of football yet to go and a lot to happen prior to the draft, but to me right now, I'm not writing him off.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
Yep this is exactly my point too. Just because he puts up gawdy stats at OSU doesn't tell us much more than he should be in the conversation. A lot of QB's would put up gawdy stats in that position. Lets see what happens at the private workouts where teams put him through their paces. Could he be the next Cam, or could he be the next Rosen, can't tell right now. However people shouldn't be getting all fired up over his stats (or Lawrence for that matter), for every Peyton there is a Leinert (QB from big school with loads of talent who ends up being average)
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Yes. Same goes for Lawrence. And the same went for Leinert, Jamarcus Russell, Rosen, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, and so on.
I'm glad you brought up Lawrence, actually.
The Clemson program is a recruiting machine and they are loaded everywhere. So we should absolutely consider that when evaluating Lawrence.
This is why I don't understand people acting like TL is some sure thing. There's a bigger body of work there than Fields and people love pointing to his Bama performance, but Bama's D was trash that year.
They are both really good prospects that essentially have the same "weakness". Plus Fields has the Ryan Day factor. I don't understand how people just discount this. You don't know how a guy is going to react mentally under heavy duress, which is the norm for the NFL. Truthfully, I was leaning towards possibly taking a QB this year until Thursday. I think it's pretty apparent DJ is going to be a solid 8-12 perennial type. Now if Fields and Lawrence were doing this at mediocre programs I'd be fully onboard on jettising DJ, but its such a giant question mark you won't get an answer to. They'll be another small sample size of games you can look at end of the year, but statisticians will tell you everything you need to know about those.
Those things are why he's a turnover machine. I doubt he'll get get better at them since he's shown zero improvement in 20 games. He's actually getting worse because now he knows he doesn't know what he's doing. When he first started playing he wasn't thinking just playing. Now he knows the league has figured out how to attack him and he can't do anything about it.
That said, if they end up #1, I would take Lawrence. He is just that good of a prospect and they can trade Jones for a decent haul probably. If they end up at #2, I would trade down. But, the bottom line,, is don't expect better from Jones if the OL isn't straightened out. At the same time, Jones has to produce almost immediately with an improved OL.
Let's fast forward to 2022, when Daniel Jones will be in his 4th year.
Here's a list of QB's that figure to be in the conversation:
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Russell Wilson, Tua, Justin Herbert, Trevor Lawrence, Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield, Kyler Murray, Wentz, Darnold, Deshaun Watson.
Are you confident that Jones will be in the top-5 of that group? That's a tough sell, and doesn't include guys like Bryce Love who was drafted to ultimately replace Aaron Rodgers, or anyone besides Lawrence drafted in 2021 and 2022.
This is why I don't understand people acting like TL is some sure thing. There's a bigger body of work there than Fields and people love pointing to his Bama performance, but Bama's D was trash that year.
They are both really good prospects that essentially have the same "weakness". Plus Fields has the Ryan Day factor. I don't understand how people just discount this. You don't know how a guy is going to react mentally under heavy duress, which is the norm for the NFL. Truthfully, I was leaning towards possibly taking a QB this year until Thursday. I think it's pretty apparent DJ is going to be a solid 8-12 perennial type. Now if Fields and Lawrence were doing this at mediocre programs I'd be fully onboard on jettising DJ, but its such a giant question mark you won't get an answer to. They'll be another small sample size of games you can look at end of the year, but statisticians will tell you everything you need to know about those.
Agree with some of this. The jury is still out for me on Jones.
The Day factor is a good point. I mentioned that repeatedly when Haskins was putting up big numbers.
It was the same thing when Bud Foster coached the D for Virginia Tech. It's the same now with Brent Venables, the DC for Clemson. Guys with the ability to really scheme it up and make players look great...
However, you have to look beyond that and focus on the player. And there are opportunities - for the QB, in this case - to look at ball placement, motion, velocity, touch, pocket presence, mobility, eyes, etc.
I'm telling you right now that Fields is closing the gap on Lawrence. He has changed his stroke and really looked sensational throwing darts on Saturday against Nebraska. I'm getting very bullish on him...but certainly still need to see more. Hopefully the B1G gets all 8 of their games in...
That is a ridiculous statement. Even if you discount some of the older guys, Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, Burrow, Murray, Herbert, Josh Allen are all playing far better than Jones.
And anyone disregarding Teddy Bridgewater just isn’t watching much football. He is on pace for 4,500 yds, 40 TD’s, while completing 72%, over 8 YPA, and only 9 INT’s. But I guess we’ll hear about how much talent he has around him.
I will say this, I haven't seem him much, but I could see Fields closing that gap on TL as the season wears on. I need to see him play some good defenses first, as that was just way too easy last week, but I'll def be tuning in.
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The most athletic QB the Giants have ever had. Get the guy a line and a receiver .
That is a ridiculous statement. Even if you discount some of the older guys, Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, Burrow, Murray, Herbert, Josh Allen are all playing far better than Jones.
And anyone disregarding Teddy Bridgewater just isn’t watching much football. He is on pace for 4,500 yds, 40 TD’s, while completing 72%, over 8 YPA, and only 9 INT’s. But I guess we’ll hear about how much talent he has around him.
DJ Moore is an absolute stud and Robbie Anderson is on Slayton's level and throw in Curtis Samuel for good measure. They are actually very similar players. I like Teddy, but he absolutely does have a lot of talent around him.
He'll make some plays, he won't make other plays- he's not great at anything. "Fix the o-line!" "Get great receivers!" WTF, if we were going to do that, we didn't need to spend the 6th pick in the draft.
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In comment 15024626 PatersonPlank said:
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Yes. Same goes for Lawrence. And the same went for Leinert, Jamarcus Russell, Rosen, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, and so on.
I'm glad you brought up Lawrence, actually.
The Clemson program is a recruiting machine and they are loaded everywhere. So we should absolutely consider that when evaluating Lawrence.
This is why I don't understand people acting like TL is some sure thing. There's a bigger body of work there than Fields and people love pointing to his Bama performance, but Bama's D was trash that year.
They are both really good prospects that essentially have the same "weakness". Plus Fields has the Ryan Day factor. I don't understand how people just discount this. You don't know how a guy is going to react mentally under heavy duress, which is the norm for the NFL. Truthfully, I was leaning towards possibly taking a QB this year until Thursday. I think it's pretty apparent DJ is going to be a solid 8-12 perennial type. Now if Fields and Lawrence were doing this at mediocre programs I'd be fully onboard on jettising DJ, but its such a giant question mark you won't get an answer to. They'll be another small sample size of games you can look at end of the year, but statisticians will tell you everything you need to know about those.
The standards on college QBs change depending on the argument. When the argument was that Eli needed to be replaced, people claimed college QBs needed to be winners. Nobody has won bigger than TL.
Now the argument is his team is too good. You want someone who put up big stats in the Colonial conference.
This is frivolous. Top QBs can and do come from juggernaut college programs.
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Is it telling that some of Jones' weaknesses in college were pinned on his receiving corp and here we are at the pro level and his weaknesses are being pinned on his receiving corp. Maybe the issue lies somewhere in between.
Are you trying to say the Panthers WR corps and the Giants WR corp is similar? The Giants may have the worst WR group in the league. I don't think that's really debateable.
I mean just look at how much better DJ looked with Shephard out there and he's pretty much a run of the mill number 2 guy.
It's a legitimate question. How will a QB fare under the type of pressure he'll see in the NFL without his WRs dominating 1v1 battles against the blitz? I think TL, and I'm coming around to Fields as well, are great prospects, but they are going to struggle to answer that and the reason you can't just be like these guys are a sure things. They look the part, but lots of guys looked the part that went on to suck in the NFL. You just don't know how a guy is mentally going to answer that question.
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In comment 15024730 allstarjim said:
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In the last 20 years or more that has what Fields appears to have. None have got my attention as a top of the draft QB and potential NFL star. Not Haskins, Pryor, Barrett, Cardale Jones, none of them. Go through the list. None have the complete package that Fields has. There's a lot of football yet to go and a lot to happen prior to the draft, but to me right now, I'm not writing him off.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
Yep this is exactly my point too. Just because he puts up gawdy stats at OSU doesn't tell us much more than he should be in the conversation. A lot of QB's would put up gawdy stats in that position. Lets see what happens at the private workouts where teams put him through their paces. Could he be the next Cam, or could he be the next Rosen, can't tell right now. However people shouldn't be getting all fired up over his stats (or Lawrence for that matter), for every Peyton there is a Leinert (QB from big school with loads of talent who ends up being average)
The stats have nothing to do with it. It's watching him and what he does, how he moves, the arm strength and accuracy. This is not a stats-based argument, I'm basing my opinion on watching him.
Many on this site, even those who are generally not fans of DJ have likened him to Tannehill. Objectively there are many things to like about DJ (accuracy, mobility) while also acknowledging his faults (pocket feel, fumbling).
If he can cut down on the TO's (which is very reasonable... other successful QB's have started their careers with TO issues only to eventually overcome them) and be a solid top 10-15 QB is that enough? Especially if you build around him, which needs to be done regardless.
it just seems like so many on here have written him off b/c he isn't Mahomes in year 2 and have us chasing another QB... all while the rest of our team is in dire need of a talent infusion.
I root for all of the kids to do well, to enhance the game etc.
On this page the Giants draft in part based on hype and odds on success. Finding the tweeners, players overlooked in later rounds able to play well past there rookie deals seems like a twilight zone of sorts.
Teams like the Cards can rebuild, Steelers constantly retooling, Ravens being a constant, as others follow, 50 feet of sludge .... then there is us and the Jets..
The Bengals seem GASP .. seem to have a better plan.
If Fields is available do we go typical copy kat?
My gut says we stick with Jones.
He deserves the rest of this year to showcase what he has.
There are two low odds shots at the Giants even entertaining the notion of drafting Lawrence. Meaning, there is no shot.
I can't remember the names available but 1-2 of them were very interesting. Maybe Garrapolo?
are you confident you will have seen what he can truly offer when you, me (and most others) acknowledge this is perhaps the most talent-less, poorly constructed roster in recent Giants history.
wouldn't you be at least slightly curious what Jones could do behind a competent O Line and running game, and with receivers who get open and make plays?
i guess that is my point... Personally I have seen enough that I think DJ is at least a competent QB and he may grow to be more than that.
so I would rather we build around him (competently) and then determine if he is good enough or if we need to get a better QB who will then have the benefit of a decent team around them.
again, this all assume we replace DG with a GM who can make a team better.
Many on this site, even those who are generally not fans of DJ have likened him to Tannehill. Objectively there are many things to like about DJ (accuracy, mobility) while also acknowledging his faults (pocket feel, fumbling).
If he can cut down on the TO's (which is very reasonable... other successful QB's have started their careers with TO issues only to eventually overcome them) and be a solid top 10-15 QB is that enough? Especially if you build around him, which needs to be done regardless.
it just seems like so many on here have written him off b/c he isn't Mahomes in year 2 and have us chasing another QB... all while the rest of our team is in dire need of a talent infusion.
You take that approach UNLESS you have a shot at an elite talent. Last night during SNF, Collinsworth was discussing Kingsbury's decision to draft Murray #1 overall when they just drafted Rosen the year prior. He said he wanted to draft Bosa #1 but when he was evaluating Murray, even though he didn't want to like him, he just saw an elite, difference-making player at the QB position that he had to draft.
So should it be with the Giants. You can win with Jones, I believe that. However, there is no greater difference maker when it comes to on-field success and in the win column than an elite QB that is a creator. You watch Wilson and Murray last night, they are incredible talents, and very often create offense, big plays even, when the called play breaks down. This is one facet of Jones' game that I believe is missing, and I think it's not something you can teach or learn, you just have to have it. Jones can run fast, but that isn't the same as being elusive or moving well in the pocket, feeling the pressure and escaping.
So, if an opportunity for an elite player at the QB position presents itself, you don't continue to try to plug all the holes with Jones, you take the elite talent at QB, because he's going to be able to win for you WITH the holes on your roster.
I'm not saying Fields is it. I'm very confident that Lawrence is, I've seen enough. But what I've seen of Fields, he definitely has a chance to be a player like a Russell Wilson.
And people get too caught up in the other roster holes in any one draft. This is not the way to think. The draft is about the next 4 years. The 1st round is about the next 5 years (or more). You also have free agency, and just because you don't plug a hole in the first round, doesn't mean you don't have other rounds to address positions.
This team, as much as it needs an impact receiver and edge rusher, needs more talent at a lot of positions, particularly depth talent. They need to draft better in the 4th round and later, and they need to try and get more picks by trading players that aren't part of the future.
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In comment 15024784 M.S. said:
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In comment 15024730 allstarjim said:
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In the last 20 years or more that has what Fields appears to have. None have got my attention as a top of the draft QB and potential NFL star. Not Haskins, Pryor, Barrett, Cardale Jones, none of them. Go through the list. None have the complete package that Fields has. There's a lot of football yet to go and a lot to happen prior to the draft, but to me right now, I'm not writing him off.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
Yep this is exactly my point too. Just because he puts up gawdy stats at OSU doesn't tell us much more than he should be in the conversation. A lot of QB's would put up gawdy stats in that position. Lets see what happens at the private workouts where teams put him through their paces. Could he be the next Cam, or could he be the next Rosen, can't tell right now. However people shouldn't be getting all fired up over his stats (or Lawrence for that matter), for every Peyton there is a Leinert (QB from big school with loads of talent who ends up being average)
The stats have nothing to do with it. It's watching him and what he does, how he moves, the arm strength and accuracy. This is not a stats-based argument, I'm basing my opinion on watching him.
Here is what I am saying. First you are right don't go by stats. However you also can't go by an evaluation that is being done in an ideal condition. Any QB's accuracy and mechanics will definitely be affected by getting a good pass rush, having to make a read faster and pull the trigger earlier, and having a WR who has 1/2 step rather than 3 yards of separation. These are the more normal game conditions in the NFL, not what TL or Fields are playing with on their college teams. Andrew Thomas fundamentals looked good too against Miss St, but now we see against NFL players he has a real issue with NFL players beating him inside. You need to try your best to see players in the NFL environment
then we're not going anywhere for years, for while most of the NFL seems to understand that great QBs present themselves by year 2, we have to wait five years to see if DJ's mediocre play improves. I guess maybe the Bears did this with Trubisky. Did the Titans wait so long for Mariota?
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does the QB need to be Rodgers or Mahomes-esque or bust?
Many on this site, even those who are generally not fans of DJ have likened him to Tannehill. Objectively there are many things to like about DJ (accuracy, mobility) while also acknowledging his faults (pocket feel, fumbling).
If he can cut down on the TO's (which is very reasonable... other successful QB's have started their careers with TO issues only to eventually overcome them) and be a solid top 10-15 QB is that enough? Especially if you build around him, which needs to be done regardless.
it just seems like so many on here have written him off b/c he isn't Mahomes in year 2 and have us chasing another QB... all while the rest of our team is in dire need of a talent infusion.
You take that approach UNLESS you have a shot at an elite talent. Last night during SNF, Collinsworth was discussing Kingsbury's decision to draft Murray #1 overall when they just drafted Rosen the year prior. He said he wanted to draft Bosa #1 but when he was evaluating Murray, even though he didn't want to like him, he just saw an elite, difference-making player at the QB position that he had to draft.
So should it be with the Giants. You can win with Jones, I believe that. However, there is no greater difference maker when it comes to on-field success and in the win column than an elite QB that is a creator. You watch Wilson and Murray last night, they are incredible talents, and very often create offense, big plays even, when the called play breaks down. This is one facet of Jones' game that I believe is missing, and I think it's not something you can teach or learn, you just have to have it. Jones can run fast, but that isn't the same as being elusive or moving well in the pocket, feeling the pressure and escaping.
So, if an opportunity for an elite player at the QB position presents itself, you don't continue to try to plug all the holes with Jones, you take the elite talent at QB, because he's going to be able to win for you WITH the holes on your roster.
I'm not saying Fields is it. I'm very confident that Lawrence is, I've seen enough. But what I've seen of Fields, he definitely has a chance to be a player like a Russell Wilson.
And people get too caught up in the other roster holes in any one draft. This is not the way to think. The draft is about the next 4 years. The 1st round is about the next 5 years (or more). You also have free agency, and just because you don't plug a hole in the first round, doesn't mean you don't have other rounds to address positions.
This team, as much as it needs an impact receiver and edge rusher, needs more talent at a lot of positions, particularly depth talent. They need to draft better in the 4th round and later, and they need to try and get more picks by trading players that aren't part of the future.
I don;t think you can win with Jones unless you have an elite roster. How often does that happen? How long can you keep it together?
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In comment 15024943 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15024784 M.S. said:
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In comment 15024730 allstarjim said:
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In the last 20 years or more that has what Fields appears to have. None have got my attention as a top of the draft QB and potential NFL star. Not Haskins, Pryor, Barrett, Cardale Jones, none of them. Go through the list. None have the complete package that Fields has. There's a lot of football yet to go and a lot to happen prior to the draft, but to me right now, I'm not writing him off.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
Yep this is exactly my point too. Just because he puts up gawdy stats at OSU doesn't tell us much more than he should be in the conversation. A lot of QB's would put up gawdy stats in that position. Lets see what happens at the private workouts where teams put him through their paces. Could he be the next Cam, or could he be the next Rosen, can't tell right now. However people shouldn't be getting all fired up over his stats (or Lawrence for that matter), for every Peyton there is a Leinert (QB from big school with loads of talent who ends up being average)
The stats have nothing to do with it. It's watching him and what he does, how he moves, the arm strength and accuracy. This is not a stats-based argument, I'm basing my opinion on watching him.
Here is what I am saying. First you are right don't go by stats. However you also can't go by an evaluation that is being done in an ideal condition. Any QB's accuracy and mechanics will definitely be affected by getting a good pass rush, having to make a read faster and pull the trigger earlier, and having a WR who has 1/2 step rather than 3 yards of separation. These are the more normal game conditions in the NFL, not what TL or Fields are playing with on their college teams. Andrew Thomas fundamentals looked good too against Miss St, but now we see against NFL players he has a real issue with NFL players beating him inside. You need to try your best to see players in the NFL environment
There are plays on tape under these conditions with which to evaluate both players. This notion that because their teams are loaded with talent means that there are always playing easy pitch and catch is erroneous.
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In comment 15024943 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15024784 M.S. said:
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In comment 15024730 allstarjim said:
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In the last 20 years or more that has what Fields appears to have. None have got my attention as a top of the draft QB and potential NFL star. Not Haskins, Pryor, Barrett, Cardale Jones, none of them. Go through the list. None have the complete package that Fields has. There's a lot of football yet to go and a lot to happen prior to the draft, but to me right now, I'm not writing him off.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
Yep this is exactly my point too. Just because he puts up gawdy stats at OSU doesn't tell us much more than he should be in the conversation. A lot of QB's would put up gawdy stats in that position. Lets see what happens at the private workouts where teams put him through their paces. Could he be the next Cam, or could he be the next Rosen, can't tell right now. However people shouldn't be getting all fired up over his stats (or Lawrence for that matter), for every Peyton there is a Leinert (QB from big school with loads of talent who ends up being average)
The stats have nothing to do with it. It's watching him and what he does, how he moves, the arm strength and accuracy. This is not a stats-based argument, I'm basing my opinion on watching him.
Here is what I am saying. First you are right don't go by stats. However you also can't go by an evaluation that is being done in an ideal condition. Any QB's accuracy and mechanics will definitely be affected by getting a good pass rush, having to make a read faster and pull the trigger earlier, and having a WR who has 1/2 step rather than 3 yards of separation. These are the more normal game conditions in the NFL, not what TL or Fields are playing with on their college teams. Andrew Thomas fundamentals looked good too against Miss St, but now we see against NFL players he has a real issue with NFL players beating him inside. You need to try your best to see players in the NFL environment
I never thought evaluating Andrew Thomas I saw an elite pass protector. Elite run blocker, yes. But pass pro you saw both good and bad, but tools to develop, which meant he was going to be a work in progress at the NFL level in that regard. Wills was the guy I thought you would come in and be a great pass pro guy right away. I think we've seen that.
are you confident you will have seen what he can truly offer when you, me (and most others) acknowledge this is perhaps the most talent-less, poorly constructed roster in recent Giants history.
wouldn't you be at least slightly curious what Jones could do behind a competent O Line and running game, and with receivers who get open and make plays?
i guess that is my point... Personally I have seen enough that I think DJ is at least a competent QB and he may grow to be more than that.
so I would rather we build around him (competently) and then determine if he is good enough or if we need to get a better QB who will then have the benefit of a decent team around them.
again, this all assume we replace DG with a GM who can make a team better.
What's your timeline for those better pieces to get into place so Jones can more fairly be evaluated? By the start of 2021? Essentially last year of his contract, 2022?
For me, I accept that we have poor roster. So I am looking for other things from Jones despite that - pocket awareness, footwork, his read progressions, playing on the move, turnovers, etc. And when I start to aggregate everything through my subjective lens, I see more of a game manager than a game changer.
Which means we should consider adding a more talented QB prospect if we have a chance.
Like mentioned, I think he deserves the right of the year to show more growth and reasons why he is indeed worth staying in the job.
C'mon man. As pointed out above, Jones had those games last year.
Jones metrics when throwing to covered receivers are very good, but there are two extraordinary circumstances he's facing:
1) His WR's get the least amount of separation in the league
2) After last week, Jones is getting pressured the most of any QB. He's pressured on over HALF of his throws.
If you guys think a QB can be fairly evaluated under those circumstances, then I'd guess a lot of you are making the incorrect evaluations because given those metrics, he looks pretty darn good to even survive and have the team in a position to win.
I mean, Joe Burrow is getting a ton of praise above - wasn't that Jones last season? Great stats - not many wins?
A QB's statistics are at least in part a function of the overall offense they play in - which is why Tom Brady and Peyton Manning had some years where they put up 50 tds and 5k yards and other years with a lot less even though they were always themselves exceptional players.
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You want to evaluate Jones? Watch yesterday's Bengal game, Charger game, Cardinal game and then tell me you need more time to see what Jones is. IMO his ceiling is Alex Smith in KC and it's unlikely he ever get to it. He wasn't an elite prospect and he's never going to be an elite NFL QB.
C'mon man. As pointed out above, Jones had those games last year.
Jones metrics when throwing to covered receivers are very good, but there are two extraordinary circumstances he's facing:
1) His WR's get the least amount of separation in the league
2) After last week, Jones is getting pressured the most of any QB. He's pressured on over HALF of his throws.
If you guys think a QB can be fairly evaluated under those circumstances, then I'd guess a lot of you are making the incorrect evaluations because given those metrics, he looks pretty darn good to even survive and have the team in a position to win.
I mean, Joe Burrow is getting a ton of praise above - wasn't that Jones last season? Great stats - not many wins?
This is the conundrum. If we give him another year in the hopes of an actual improved OL and WR, what happens if we made a mistake?
I definitely see the Alex Smith comp. Similar builds and athletes. Although Jones isn't afraid to turn it lose deep. Smith seemed to have the yips for taking on that risk.
I watched a good chunk of that Charger game yesterday. Herbert is looking tremendous. He threw some lasers yesterday that clearly distinguish he arm talent from a guy like Jones. His ball gets to the target in a hurry. Pep Hamilton, their QB coach, deserves a ton of credit for his work so far with Herbert...
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You want to evaluate Jones? Watch yesterday's Bengal game, Charger game, Cardinal game and then tell me you need more time to see what Jones is. IMO his ceiling is Alex Smith in KC and it's unlikely he ever get to it. He wasn't an elite prospect and he's never going to be an elite NFL QB.
I definitely see the Alex Smith comp. Similar builds and athletes. Although Jones isn't afraid to turn it lose deep. Smith seemed to have the yips for taking on that risk.
I watched a good chunk of that Charger game yesterday. Herbert is looking tremendous. He threw some lasers yesterday that clearly distinguish he arm talent from a guy like Jones. His ball gets to the target in a hurry. Pep Hamilton, their QB coach, deserves a ton of credit for his work so far with Herbert...
Another post we agree on - especially comparing Jones to a more aggressive version of Alex Smith (I think that's dead on).
So here's another hypothetical for you, having seen what Andy Reid did with Alex Smith in KC, imagine what Jones could do in a good situation like that. Creating that situation around him (especially quickly assessing whether or not Garrett is the right person to lead that) seems a much better use of resources going forward than trying to start from square one again (unless Lawrence is staring them in the face).
I agree. Just made this point in another thread. It's a dilemma we have with DJ because how can you get any evaluation on this kid given the lack of help? I watch those OL breakdowns each week, and any play we made you see DJ had to do it just before getting hit, ducking a hit, moving away from pressure, etc. He almost never just has a pocket. Add to that the "skill" positions we have that come up small and our D that gives up every lead so we are always playing from behind. JFC. He has guts, and reasonable accuracy most of the time. Can he learn to read faster, look off Ds better? I think so, but how can we evaluate him amidst this shit show?
In comment 15024756 SGMen said:
Flacco had a debilitating knee injury, and he never fully recovered.