I was listening to Jordan Ranaan's podcast (Breaking Big Blue) and he had on Adam Caplan and Jeff Moster (sp?) from the Phila media to preview Thursday's game.
They all agreed that Wentz is the best QB in the NFC East, now that Dak is out. Caplan interrupted to state that his contacts among other NFL teams are all very high on Daniel Jones, stating that the belief is that he is a franchise QB and long-term NFL starter. They believe that getting his Oline fixed, along with his turnovers will get him over the top.
It was refreshing to hear what NFL front offices think of Jones vs the media, and our worst fears as fans.
Seems like Schuplinski has got to focus on DJs pocket awareness, maybe a "shot clock" something to get him to develop that sense of what's going on around him.
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does the QB need to be Rodgers or Mahomes-esque or bust?
Many on this site, even those who are generally not fans of DJ have likened him to Tannehill. Objectively there are many things to like about DJ (accuracy, mobility) while also acknowledging his faults (pocket feel, fumbling).
If he can cut down on the TO's (which is very reasonable... other successful QB's have started their careers with TO issues only to eventually overcome them) and be a solid top 10-15 QB is that enough? Especially if you build around him, which needs to be done regardless.
it just seems like so many on here have written him off b/c he isn't Mahomes in year 2 and have us chasing another QB... all while the rest of our team is in dire need of a talent infusion.
You take that approach UNLESS you have a shot at an elite talent. Last night during SNF, Collinsworth was discussing Kingsbury's decision to draft Murray #1 overall when they just drafted Rosen the year prior. He said he wanted to draft Bosa #1 but when he was evaluating Murray, even though he didn't want to like him, he just saw an elite, difference-making player at the QB position that he had to draft.
So should it be with the Giants. You can win with Jones, I believe that. However, there is no greater difference maker when it comes to on-field success and in the win column than an elite QB that is a creator. You watch Wilson and Murray last night, they are incredible talents, and very often create offense, big plays even, when the called play breaks down. This is one facet of Jones' game that I believe is missing, and I think it's not something you can teach or learn, you just have to have it. Jones can run fast, but that isn't the same as being elusive or moving well in the pocket, feeling the pressure and escaping.
So, if an opportunity for an elite player at the QB position presents itself, you don't continue to try to plug all the holes with Jones, you take the elite talent at QB, because he's going to be able to win for you WITH the holes on your roster.
I'm not saying Fields is it. I'm very confident that Lawrence is, I've seen enough. But what I've seen of Fields, he definitely has a chance to be a player like a Russell Wilson.
And people get too caught up in the other roster holes in any one draft. This is not the way to think. The draft is about the next 4 years. The 1st round is about the next 5 years (or more). You also have free agency, and just because you don't plug a hole in the first round, doesn't mean you don't have other rounds to address positions.
This team, as much as it needs an impact receiver and edge rusher, needs more talent at a lot of positions, particularly depth talent. They need to draft better in the 4th round and later, and they need to try and get more picks by trading players that aren't part of the future.
I don;t think you can win with Jones unless you have an elite roster. How often does that happen? How long can you keep it together?
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In comment 15024943 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15024784 M.S. said:
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In comment 15024730 allstarjim said:
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In the last 20 years or more that has what Fields appears to have. None have got my attention as a top of the draft QB and potential NFL star. Not Haskins, Pryor, Barrett, Cardale Jones, none of them. Go through the list. None have the complete package that Fields has. There's a lot of football yet to go and a lot to happen prior to the draft, but to me right now, I'm not writing him off.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
Yep this is exactly my point too. Just because he puts up gawdy stats at OSU doesn't tell us much more than he should be in the conversation. A lot of QB's would put up gawdy stats in that position. Lets see what happens at the private workouts where teams put him through their paces. Could he be the next Cam, or could he be the next Rosen, can't tell right now. However people shouldn't be getting all fired up over his stats (or Lawrence for that matter), for every Peyton there is a Leinert (QB from big school with loads of talent who ends up being average)
The stats have nothing to do with it. It's watching him and what he does, how he moves, the arm strength and accuracy. This is not a stats-based argument, I'm basing my opinion on watching him.
Here is what I am saying. First you are right don't go by stats. However you also can't go by an evaluation that is being done in an ideal condition. Any QB's accuracy and mechanics will definitely be affected by getting a good pass rush, having to make a read faster and pull the trigger earlier, and having a WR who has 1/2 step rather than 3 yards of separation. These are the more normal game conditions in the NFL, not what TL or Fields are playing with on their college teams. Andrew Thomas fundamentals looked good too against Miss St, but now we see against NFL players he has a real issue with NFL players beating him inside. You need to try your best to see players in the NFL environment
There are plays on tape under these conditions with which to evaluate both players. This notion that because their teams are loaded with talent means that there are always playing easy pitch and catch is erroneous.
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In comment 15024943 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15024784 M.S. said:
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In comment 15024730 allstarjim said:
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In the last 20 years or more that has what Fields appears to have. None have got my attention as a top of the draft QB and potential NFL star. Not Haskins, Pryor, Barrett, Cardale Jones, none of them. Go through the list. None have the complete package that Fields has. There's a lot of football yet to go and a lot to happen prior to the draft, but to me right now, I'm not writing him off.
If you watched what Wilson and Murray did tonight, not to mention what Mahomes has done, he could be that kind of playmaker from the QB position but at more prototypical QB size.
I find it hard to judge Fields for one reason: When he drops back to pass, it looks like he's in an isolation tank with not a single defender near him and he's playing a casual game of toss. You could cement his feet to the ground and he still wouldn't be touched.
Yep this is exactly my point too. Just because he puts up gawdy stats at OSU doesn't tell us much more than he should be in the conversation. A lot of QB's would put up gawdy stats in that position. Lets see what happens at the private workouts where teams put him through their paces. Could he be the next Cam, or could he be the next Rosen, can't tell right now. However people shouldn't be getting all fired up over his stats (or Lawrence for that matter), for every Peyton there is a Leinert (QB from big school with loads of talent who ends up being average)
The stats have nothing to do with it. It's watching him and what he does, how he moves, the arm strength and accuracy. This is not a stats-based argument, I'm basing my opinion on watching him.
Here is what I am saying. First you are right don't go by stats. However you also can't go by an evaluation that is being done in an ideal condition. Any QB's accuracy and mechanics will definitely be affected by getting a good pass rush, having to make a read faster and pull the trigger earlier, and having a WR who has 1/2 step rather than 3 yards of separation. These are the more normal game conditions in the NFL, not what TL or Fields are playing with on their college teams. Andrew Thomas fundamentals looked good too against Miss St, but now we see against NFL players he has a real issue with NFL players beating him inside. You need to try your best to see players in the NFL environment
I never thought evaluating Andrew Thomas I saw an elite pass protector. Elite run blocker, yes. But pass pro you saw both good and bad, but tools to develop, which meant he was going to be a work in progress at the NFL level in that regard. Wills was the guy I thought you would come in and be a great pass pro guy right away. I think we've seen that.
are you confident you will have seen what he can truly offer when you, me (and most others) acknowledge this is perhaps the most talent-less, poorly constructed roster in recent Giants history.
wouldn't you be at least slightly curious what Jones could do behind a competent O Line and running game, and with receivers who get open and make plays?
i guess that is my point... Personally I have seen enough that I think DJ is at least a competent QB and he may grow to be more than that.
so I would rather we build around him (competently) and then determine if he is good enough or if we need to get a better QB who will then have the benefit of a decent team around them.
again, this all assume we replace DG with a GM who can make a team better.
What's your timeline for those better pieces to get into place so Jones can more fairly be evaluated? By the start of 2021? Essentially last year of his contract, 2022?
For me, I accept that we have poor roster. So I am looking for other things from Jones despite that - pocket awareness, footwork, his read progressions, playing on the move, turnovers, etc. And when I start to aggregate everything through my subjective lens, I see more of a game manager than a game changer.
Which means we should consider adding a more talented QB prospect if we have a chance.
Like mentioned, I think he deserves the right of the year to show more growth and reasons why he is indeed worth staying in the job.
C'mon man. As pointed out above, Jones had those games last year.
Jones metrics when throwing to covered receivers are very good, but there are two extraordinary circumstances he's facing:
1) His WR's get the least amount of separation in the league
2) After last week, Jones is getting pressured the most of any QB. He's pressured on over HALF of his throws.
If you guys think a QB can be fairly evaluated under those circumstances, then I'd guess a lot of you are making the incorrect evaluations because given those metrics, he looks pretty darn good to even survive and have the team in a position to win.
I mean, Joe Burrow is getting a ton of praise above - wasn't that Jones last season? Great stats - not many wins?
A QB's statistics are at least in part a function of the overall offense they play in - which is why Tom Brady and Peyton Manning had some years where they put up 50 tds and 5k yards and other years with a lot less even though they were always themselves exceptional players.
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You want to evaluate Jones? Watch yesterday's Bengal game, Charger game, Cardinal game and then tell me you need more time to see what Jones is. IMO his ceiling is Alex Smith in KC and it's unlikely he ever get to it. He wasn't an elite prospect and he's never going to be an elite NFL QB.
C'mon man. As pointed out above, Jones had those games last year.
Jones metrics when throwing to covered receivers are very good, but there are two extraordinary circumstances he's facing:
1) His WR's get the least amount of separation in the league
2) After last week, Jones is getting pressured the most of any QB. He's pressured on over HALF of his throws.
If you guys think a QB can be fairly evaluated under those circumstances, then I'd guess a lot of you are making the incorrect evaluations because given those metrics, he looks pretty darn good to even survive and have the team in a position to win.
I mean, Joe Burrow is getting a ton of praise above - wasn't that Jones last season? Great stats - not many wins?
This is the conundrum. If we give him another year in the hopes of an actual improved OL and WR, what happens if we made a mistake?
I definitely see the Alex Smith comp. Similar builds and athletes. Although Jones isn't afraid to turn it lose deep. Smith seemed to have the yips for taking on that risk.
I watched a good chunk of that Charger game yesterday. Herbert is looking tremendous. He threw some lasers yesterday that clearly distinguish he arm talent from a guy like Jones. His ball gets to the target in a hurry. Pep Hamilton, their QB coach, deserves a ton of credit for his work so far with Herbert...
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You want to evaluate Jones? Watch yesterday's Bengal game, Charger game, Cardinal game and then tell me you need more time to see what Jones is. IMO his ceiling is Alex Smith in KC and it's unlikely he ever get to it. He wasn't an elite prospect and he's never going to be an elite NFL QB.
I definitely see the Alex Smith comp. Similar builds and athletes. Although Jones isn't afraid to turn it lose deep. Smith seemed to have the yips for taking on that risk.
I watched a good chunk of that Charger game yesterday. Herbert is looking tremendous. He threw some lasers yesterday that clearly distinguish he arm talent from a guy like Jones. His ball gets to the target in a hurry. Pep Hamilton, their QB coach, deserves a ton of credit for his work so far with Herbert...
Another post we agree on - especially comparing Jones to a more aggressive version of Alex Smith (I think that's dead on).
So here's another hypothetical for you, having seen what Andy Reid did with Alex Smith in KC, imagine what Jones could do in a good situation like that. Creating that situation around him (especially quickly assessing whether or not Garrett is the right person to lead that) seems a much better use of resources going forward than trying to start from square one again (unless Lawrence is staring them in the face).
I agree. Just made this point in another thread. It's a dilemma we have with DJ because how can you get any evaluation on this kid given the lack of help? I watch those OL breakdowns each week, and any play we made you see DJ had to do it just before getting hit, ducking a hit, moving away from pressure, etc. He almost never just has a pocket. Add to that the "skill" positions we have that come up small and our D that gives up every lead so we are always playing from behind. JFC. He has guts, and reasonable accuracy most of the time. Can he learn to read faster, look off Ds better? I think so, but how can we evaluate him amidst this shit show?
In comment 15024756 SGMen said:
Flacco had a debilitating knee injury, and he never fully recovered.