2018: Hired Steve Wilks, drafted Josh Rosen.
(Had one of the worst rosters in the NFL)
2019: Fired Wilks, hired Kliff. Moved on from Rosen, drafted Kyler.
2020: 5-2 and in playoff contention.
The Cardinals blew a top 10 pick, have had two coaches in three years and also have a second year QB and are miles ahead of the Giants.
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the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.
His passing is a bigger problem than his escapability.
No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.
Agree to disagree because that's not at all what I see. He's made excellent throws to Tate, Engram, Shepard, and Slayton on the downfield passes that have been called this year and the statistics don't lie. He's had a solid completion % from day. Last year he had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Hard to do each of those things without accuracy.
This year he's definitely regressed from a pure production standpoint and generally appeared less decisive but it's hard to tell if that's the new offense or true regression. His improvement the past 2 weeks has me optimistic it's more the former.
Lastly a simple question, imagine the world where Engram catches that pass and the Giants are on a 2 game winning streak. You're still ready to cut bait on the guy and think he doesn't even "have a chance"?
Hmmm, I seem to recall DJ having multiple games last year where he was putting up multiple TD's per game... but let's pretend that didn't happen so you can tell us how much Herbert is (and he may very well be better - my beef is you acting like none of DJ's 3 and 4 TD games last year didn't happen)
so whatever level DJ ultimately gets to in his overall game, to say he "he has demonstrated he can't play in the NFL" is a comment that allows for no actual discussion b/c it is quite frankly a dumb statement to make.
anyway, I will go back to glossing over your silly comments.
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the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.
Jim a few reactions:
1- I agree durability is my biggest concern based on his style of play. As it would be if Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, or Justin Herbert were our QB. Russell Wilson imo is the model and he's done a great job reducing his rushing attempts and minimizing the amount of contact he absorbs. Kyler would be very wise to emulate that. All of these guys take more hits and are called on for designed runs than I'd prefer my QB to take.
2- I'm not a believer in Fields and if they miraculously got the 1OA pick I'd have the same concern with Lawrence (I am a believer in Lawrence). With the trend towards rushing QB's they are all taking more hits unless they have the elite escapability AND smarts Russell Wilson has developed.
3- I wouldn't lump all the OL investments together. Reese clearly made mistakes and the new regime clearly hasn't gotten it resolved yet but they are 2 different things. My biggest regret this past offseason was not hiring Callahan. I'd have preferred him as OL coach even if it meant a different OC than Garrett. That would probably be my biggest criticism of Judge so far. I wish he'd have absorbed from Scarnechia how big of a deal an elite OL coach can be. Also I don't agree that it's a negative to have resources invested in OL. They just obviously need to get better at generating ROI on whatever investments they make (which is why I think Callahan was a big missed opportunity). Hopefully the apples didn't fall far in Columbo.
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No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.
Agree to disagree because that's not at all what I see. He's made excellent throws to Tate, Engram, Shepard, and Slayton on the downfield passes that have been called this year and the statistics don't lie. He's had a solid completion % from day. Last year he had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Hard to do each of those things without accuracy.
This year he's definitely regressed from a pure production standpoint and generally appeared less decisive but it's hard to tell if that's the new offense or true regression. His improvement the past 2 weeks has me optimistic it's more the former.
Lastly a simple question, imagine the world where Engram catches that pass and the Giants are on a 2 game winning streak. You're still ready to cut bait on the guy and think he doesn't even "have a chance"?
Yes. Personally, I cut bait on this guy. I mean, I certainly let him play out the season and who knows maybe there is a miracle. But I don't see Mahomes, Lamar, Wilson, Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Kyler, Herbert, even Ryan in this guy. I want the NY Giants to have a superstar QB who will carry them to the playoffs year after year. Our wins shouldn't rely on one pass to Engram. LAst night Wilson had his TE drop a TD in the end zone. He came back and threw another great pass. Wilson and Kyler make play after play. Yes, I agree Engram is a bum. A great QB comes back with other winning plays.
You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
A competent NFL front office would. He's 4-15 as a starter and the offense has been abysmal. In that time we could have achieved similar success from almost any QB in the NFL. If he were an 8 year vet journeyman with that record we'd all be ecstatic to get a third rounder in trade.
The question you should be asking now is: am I interested in giving Jones a second contract? If the answer is no, then his value is only going down with every game that passes before he hits free agency. If the answer is yes, you're either drunk or overly influenced by hopes and wishes.
If the gods are just, very soon we'll have a new non-idiot GM to go with our promising head coach. When that happens, the rebuild actually starts...and they should be able to move forward from every player on the roster. Every single one. And when it comes to QB and RB we know two things:
- a QB on a rookie contract is a huge advantage
- paying a RB a second contract is foolish
Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?
You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
Jones can't be judged yet. He is in his second system in 2 years without a normal preseason or camp. That second year jump often because they know the system after an entire offseason in it after a season of playing it, they can play faster.
I admit to being very nervous about his inability to hold on to the ball but he does posses some plus traits.
It really is as close to apples to apples comparison as you can get for rebuilds and DG looks really bad comparatively. I will give him until the end of they year.
Make no mistake this is 100% DG's team, in DG's third season, and it looks awful without a lot to look forward to. Is there anyone on BBI who is like...Next year, we are going to be the shit because of X Y Z. Some people point to Judge but that is nothing more than a guess because he said some typical coach speak they liked. Remember how happy everyone was because Shurmur was an adult? That is now how our bar has fallen, we were happy that our new head coach was an adult with a terrible head coaching record. FFS. There is zero success as a HC for Judge to lean on to make that speculation about him as anything more than hope.
Hmmm, I seem to recall DJ having multiple games last year where he was putting up multiple TD's per game... but let's pretend that didn't happen so you can tell us how much Herbert is (and he may very well be better - my beef is you acting like none of DJ's 3 and 4 TD games last year didn't happen)
so whatever level DJ ultimately gets to in his overall game, to say he "he has demonstrated he can't play in the NFL" is a comment that allows for no actual discussion b/c it is quite frankly a dumb statement to make.
anyway, I will go back to glossing over your silly comments.
fine ignore me.. Daniel Jones is bottom three in comp % and bottom 3 in QBR. That shows he can play? His numbers last year were better but nothing approaching elite - below middle of the pack. This is not the resume of a top-5 QB.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.
Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?
In addition to being awful in the booth they are terrible with their evals of other QBs. They don;t want to put guys down. I don;t trust anything they have to say about how young QBs are faring. They say Tyrod Taylor is good.
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In comment 15025068 djm said:
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but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.
Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.
Lol ok. Does how it’s worded really matter?
Dg is working within the Giants way. It's the Giants rebuild. Meaning he's not making all the decisions.
And Murray is playing Qb for the Cards. We'd have more than 1 win right now if he was playing for NYG.
Is he though? He’s gone the opposite direction of what Reese was doing and none of its worked out. This is Gettleman’s rebuild, he’s responsible. If it makes you feel better we can call the thread Keim vs Gettleman, but it’s all the same.
That doesn't make any sense.
If you trust Judge and think he's the guy to do the total rebuild. Let him make the call on who stays and who goes. From Jones to Barkley to whomever.
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I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.
Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?
I do. I question how much you actually watch the Giants if you don't think Jones throws the football accurately, but no need to debate something we each see so differently.
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In comment 15025342 Eric on Li said:
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I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.
Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?
I do. I question how much you actually watch the Giants if you don't think Jones throws the football accurately, but no need to debate something we each see so differently.
Can you read numbers? Because there isn't a single solitary number that shows Jones is any better than the 29th (maybe) most accurate starting passer in the NFL. A very accurate passer should be somewhere around 68%. Add to that is truly abysmal yds / att and yds / comp. And then when I watch him he is basically throwing the ball all over the place, usually inaccurately, mostly short dump offs. Then he makes a few good throws. He's not going to be in this league for long with play like that.
Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?
And I don’t get why anyone would continue to make wins and losses an arbiter of any individual player on a football team, even the QB. Josh Allen has more career wins in which his team scores 17 or less points than Daniel Jones has in total. The Chiefs won their division two years in a row before Mahomes became the starter, yet people here would have you believe they were the Cleveland Browns before he came along. What some are asking of Jones hasn’t been done by any active QB on a team this poor this early into a player’s career. I see people on BBI applauding Joe Burrow for something Daniel Jones did 4 or 5 times last season. I would gladly draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but I wouldn’t expect him to single-handedly turn around this dumpster fire either.
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Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?
And I don’t get why anyone would continue to make wins and losses an arbiter of any individual player on a football team, even the QB. Josh Allen has more career wins in which his team scores 17 or less points than Daniel Jones has in total. The Chiefs won their division two years in a row before Mahomes became the starter, yet people here would have you believe they were the Cleveland Browns before he came along. What some are asking of Jones hasn’t been done by any active QB on a team this poor this early into a player’s career. I see people on BBI applauding Joe Burrow for something Daniel Jones did 4 or 5 times last season. I would gladly draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but I wouldn’t expect him to single-handedly turn around this dumpster fire either.
Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?
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In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:
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Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?
I know you started watching the Giants 5 weeks ago, but Daniel Jones did in fact have at least 4 games similar to or better than what Joe Burrow did yesterday. Doesn’t mean Jones will turn into Joe Montana, but there’s a segment on BBI that wants to pretend that never happened.
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In comment 15025378 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:
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Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?
I know you started watching the Giants 5 weeks ago, but Daniel Jones did in fact have at least 4 games similar to or better than what Joe Burrow did yesterday. Doesn’t mean Jones will turn into Joe Montana, but there’s a segment on BBI that wants to pretend that never happened.
No i have been watching the Giants since 1974 and went to my first game at Shea Stadium vs the Saints. And perhaps, you'll be interested to know that Burrow is not only outperforming Daniel Jones in 2020, but he is also outpacing Jones of 2019 in every important metric. But please tell me how much better the Bengals are than the Giants.
Cardinals went 5-10-1 last year in Murray and Kingsbury's first season together. Right now, Cardinals look good at the current time, I'd be willing to bet when the weather starts to turn and they have to go on the road that their helter skelter type offense tends to falter. Right now it's easy to rely on Murray's legs but he's been bailing them out on nearly every down. The Hopkins trade was a great move, I'll say that.
Even Eli last year was making plays. Jones simply does not make plays unless it is that bootleg keeper and he runs for a big gain. How long is that going to last?
As far as evasive QBs? I mean when you watched Eli he probably took a sack or 2 too many. Does that really matter when you are throwing the ball 40 yards a clip at a time and up by 2-3 scores against playoff bound teams? Jones is not a play maker unless it that bootleg with him running down the field. A few good throws but not enough.
And even Seattle, despite the success with poor OL play they've invested a lot - Duane Brown trade + signing, previously spent multiple high picks on guys like Okung, Ifedi, and Unger, and more recently Pocic and Lewis.
A huge part of Baltimore's success has been their OL. Same with KC.
So I don't begrudge the OL picks and I guess it's hard to begrudge DB picks also because we have seen first hand how easy it is to lose games when you have easily exploitable players defending good WRs.
Just wish they could have found a way to grab one of those explosive WRs since they were there for the taking in good value spots.
nope. Payton Manning, Andrew Luck have. Strange thing I do not recall Payton being particularly mobile either.
Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?
In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, [b]and throws a very accurate ball/b]. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
I keep reading this accuracy attribute for Jones. Are you guys sure you aren't confusing a nice spiral for accuracy?
Right now he is 28th in the league with a 61.9% completion %. Last year, he finished 25th, also at 61.9%. And with such a low AYPA, you would think the % should be higher.
So what am I missing?
for everything i've seen so far Jone's isn't the guy. can we win with him? sure, but too much needs to be right.
step one will be getting rid of DG. for all intents and purposes he did a decent job turning over the roster. it didn't translate to wins but theres more involved with that(mara, mara, mara, shurmur being the only coach who would agree to keep eli, mara).
he's made some good FA signings, and some bad. it is what it is. some of you act like the giants owe you flawlessness or something.
New GM, hopefully we keep Judge as some people have said young nfl execs wouldn't shy away from the opportunity to work with him.
my problem is copycat actions expecting the same thing.
if we get the first, or second pick. and we go lawrence who looks like a copy of mahomes or fields who looks like a copy of whoever. i don't like the idea of "this guy looks like this recently successful player"
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for whatever you can get, or cut him outright.
You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
You should ignore the worst takes, responding even in insult only encourages more bad takes.
Jones can't be judged yet. He is in his second system in 2 years without a normal preseason or camp. That second year jump often because they know the system after an entire offseason in it after a season of playing it, they can play faster.
I admit to being very nervous about his inability to hold on to the ball but he does posses some plus traits.
It really is as close to apples to apples comparison as you can get for rebuilds and DG looks really bad comparatively. I will give him until the end of they year.
Make no mistake this is 100% DG's team, in DG's third season, and it looks awful without a lot to look forward to. Is there anyone on BBI who is like...Next year, we are going to be the shit because of X Y Z. Some people point to Judge but that is nothing more than a guess because he said some typical coach speak they liked. Remember how happy everyone was because Shurmur was an adult? That is now how our bar has fallen, we were happy that our new head coach was an adult with a terrible head coaching record. FFS. There is zero success as a HC for Judge to lean on to make that speculation about him as anything more than hope.
Can Brady or Herbert be judged by it? They had new systems and no pre season. That first TB game rough. One game He didn't look good in one game. Herbert looked good right of the gate.
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I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, [b]and throws a very accurate ball/b]. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
I keep reading this accuracy attribute for Jones. Are you guys sure you aren't confusing a nice spiral for accuracy?
Right now he is 28th in the league with a 61.9% completion %. Last year, he finished 25th, also at 61.9%. And with such a low AYPA, you would think the % should be higher.
So what am I missing?
yes.. finally.. Jones is not an accurate passer. His passing is the biggest flaw to his game.
His biggest and best attribute to me is his ability to run. And I actually think he's a better thrower on the run than in the pocket. He's actually fairly effective rolling right and finding receivers on the right sideline.
He may be a bright guy because he went to Duke. But I don't see where that has translated to the football field. If anything for me, his football IQ is about average right now.
His biggest and best attribute to me is his ability to run. And I actually think he's a better thrower on the run than in the pocket. He's actually fairly effective rolling right and finding receivers on the right sideline.
He may be a bright guy because he went to Duke. But I don't see where that has translated to the football field. If anything for me, his football IQ is about average right now.
Jones' best skill is long speed. Once he is out of the pocket and into the open field he is pretty fast and a load. His scrambling prior to getting into the open field is not good as he is easily flustered and runs poorly in traffic. He does not seem to throw well on the run, rather he has had success in second reaction plays where he runs to the sideline (running for his life it seems) and in the breakdown Slayton runs down the field and Jones lets it loose. No doubt these are good plays, but it's one of the few consistent things he does that works. His overall accuracy is not good and it is strange that he gets credit for being very accurate. I think it is because when he does hit a pass he looks good doing it.
If you want to continue debating the Jones' accuracy I think there's room for disagreement but there at least needs to some acknowledgement that there is a case both ways. Jones' career completion percentage is still higher than almost all of his contemporaries including Baker, Darnold, Allen, Haskins, and Lock (and Ryan Finley's 47%). It's also not too hard to find various methodologies that track tight window throws like PFF or like the one linked below to see reasons for optimism (beyond what we can see with our own eyes like the TD to Shepard and 3rd down to Engram on Thursday that should have been the game winners). And to make it even more simple, I'd be curious how you rate him as a pure thrower of the football relative to Eli. I personally think he's the better thrower and that's a pretty solid bar for any 2nd year QB to clear.
I do agree with you that his football IQ is about average right now and is the most immediate area of needed improvement. But I also think last year he showed upside on that (nobody throws 13 tds in the RZ with 0 ints easily or by accident - and that was trend in his performance even at Duke). He clearly hasn't been as comfortable throwing the football in this year's offense compared to last year's. It seems to be trending in the right direction but that's probably the #1 storyline that remains to be seen over the rest of the season. He and the coaches need to solve that if either of them are going to be the long term solution.
Who were the best quarterbacks throwing long passes in 2019? - ( New Window )
Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?
In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.
I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.
Cardinals went 5-10-1 last year in Murray and Kingsbury's first season together. Right now, Cardinals look good at the current time, I'd be willing to bet when the weather starts to turn and they have to go on the road that their helter skelter type offense tends to falter. Right now it's easy to rely on Murray's legs but he's been bailing them out on nearly every down. The Hopkins trade was a great move, I'll say that.
I remember what happened in the Meadowlands last year — and the weather was terrible.
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Joe Judge for 1 year.
Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?
In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.
I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.
Jim whether they are flashes in the pan or not, it doesn't change the fact that it took them 1.5 years to get to where they are now. Let's see first how Judge/Jones finish this year and then where they go next year.
If this was last year and they didn't have Deandre Hopkins, do they win that game last night? Or does it likely end up as a good effort not dissimilar from many of our games thus far this year?
Completion % is a more traditional stat. And I do like AYPA as well because it consolidates a few key variables. But I do like to see other non-traditional measurements. So I am going to check out your link.
Jones vs Eli as throwers? I think Eli had more arm talent in terms of zip and making throws outside of hash marks. Eli was a very solid deep thrower, but Jones looks good there, too. Probably a wash. Eli wasn't an accurate passer throughout his career, so Jones is probably his equal there and may have a chance to be better in the long run...
Jones is a much, much athlete than Eli. Not even close. And there is that interesting dimension to his game being able to throw on the run. That was not in Eli's quiver.
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Joe Judge for 1 year.
Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?
In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.
I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.
Jim yeah for sure. Beating Seattle is a great win. I loved Murray but knew we weren't getting him. That said, I feel like with better blocking and more time in this system, and even just one more WR Jones will do well. I think people are giving up on him too early. I mean second coach and system already in his second year, behind an OL that is really failing him, with his greatest threat on offense out for the year. I feel like he deserves more patience.
If you want to continue debating the Jones' accuracy I think there's room for disagreement but there at least needs to some acknowledgement that there is a case both ways. Jones' career completion percentage is still higher than almost all of his contemporaries including Baker, Darnold, Allen, Haskins, and Lock (and Ryan Finley's 47%). It's also not too hard to find various methodologies that track tight window throws like PFF or like the one linked below to see reasons for optimism (beyond what we can see with our own eyes like the TD to Shepard and 3rd down to Engram on Thursday that should have been the game winners). And to make it even more simple, I'd be curious how you rate him as a pure thrower of the football relative to Eli. I personally think he's the better thrower and that's a pretty solid bar for any 2nd year QB to clear.
I do agree with you that his football IQ is about average right now and is the most immediate area of needed improvement. But I also think last year he showed upside on that (nobody throws 13 tds in the RZ with 0 ints easily or by accident - and that was trend in his performance even at Duke). He clearly hasn't been as comfortable throwing the football in this year's offense compared to last year's. It seems to be trending in the right direction but that's probably the #1 storyline that remains to be seen over the rest of the season. He and the coaches need to solve that if either of them are going to be the long term solution. Who were the best quarterbacks throwing long passes in 2019? - ( New Window )
jones is not accurate. you are cherry picking comparables. 61% is poor in today's nfl. I notice you didn;t compare him to Kyler, Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, nor Trubisky or Mariota. Kyler is percieved as an inaccurate passer and he's slinging at 65%.
Completion % is a more traditional stat. And I do like AYPA as well because it consolidates a few key variables. But I do like to see other non-traditional measurements. So I am going to check out your link.
Jones vs Eli as throwers? I think Eli had more arm talent in terms of zip and making throws outside of hash marks. Eli was a very solid deep thrower, but Jones looks good there, too. Probably a wash. Eli wasn't an accurate passer throughout his career, so Jones is probably his equal there and may have a chance to be better in the long run...
Jones is a much, much athlete than Eli. Not even close. And there is that interesting dimension to his game being able to throw on the run. That was not in Eli's quiver.
I'd agree with just about all of this - to me Jones (even as someone who liked him as a prospect) he has looked more accurate than I expected from just about day 1. Remember his preseason last year? I know preseason is meaningless but I don't think Eli could have ever performed that well in terms of clean, accurate completions even in preseason. We knew he was a tangibly better athlete than Eli but he's shown a little more of that school yard escapability than I expected also. And he seems to be just as tough and just as hard of a worker.
So while it all hasn't come together yet statistically I see a lot to like despite obviously difficult circumstances. We do need to start seeing him perform when games are on the line - but that's why the Philly game in particular was encouraging. He made the plays when the game was on the line (it was others who didn't). Once upon a time Eli needed Manningham and Plax to hang on to nicely lofted passes too.
jones is not accurate. you are cherry picking comparables. 61% is poor in today's nfl. I notice you didn;t compare him to Kyler, Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, nor Trubisky or Mariota. Kyler is percieved as an inaccurate passer and he's slinging at 65%.
I didn't compare him to this year's rookies because they've only played a few games. Similar to Jones' performance last year I love what I've seen from Herbert though, to the point where I'd actually probably take him over Burrow.
Kyler and Lamar have started a similar # of games and both been better by completion % though they are both in very different offenses and situations. Lamar Jackson had the fewest attempts of any starter in the league last year and Kyler probably had close to the most. And guess what? Their career Y/A (Kyler 7.0, Lamar 7.5) aren't so far off Jones (6.4).
Jones and Kyler are probably the best apples to apples comparison and they actually had extremely similar statistical seasons throwing the football last year:
Jones (12 starts) - 61.9% - 3,027 yards - 24 tds - 12 ints - 6.6 y/a
Kyler (16 starts) - 64.4% - 3,722 yards - 20 tds - 12 ints - 6.9 y/a
In year 2, one of them got Deandre Hopkins and the other is in a new system and lost Saquon Barkley. Gee I wonder which one is having the better statistical season...
And last year he rushed for 550 yards, 7 TDs, and at almost 6 ypc.
Jones can move, but he's not nearly the threat on the ground as Murray, which helps differentiate him from other QBs...
And even Seattle, despite the success with poor OL play they've invested a lot - Duane Brown trade + signing, previously spent multiple high picks on guys like Okung, Ifedi, and Unger, and more recently Pocic and Lewis.
A huge part of Baltimore's success has been their OL. Same with KC.
So I don't begrudge the OL picks and I guess it's hard to begrudge DB picks also because we have seen first hand how easy it is to lose games when you have easily exploitable players defending good WRs.
Just wish they could have found a way to grab one of those explosive WRs since they were there for the taking in good value spots.
Wilson and Kyler do ok with substandard OLs because they are backyard QBs, with exceptional pocket presence to extend the play and make plays in unconventional ways.
If Wilson attempted to be a straight drop back QB that only occasionally used his mobility (like your typical QB), he wouldn't be anywhere where he's at.
Even when he doesn't flee the pocket, he still doesn't typically stay in drop back mode. He likes to drop back and climb the pocket right away when he's not throwing it deep.
Last night we watched the Cards beat the Hawks and everyone thought the same thing: how come the Cards can turn it around and we can not? An entertaining football game with two teams built to win in todays NFL. Two teams that look nothing like the steaming pile of shit we all watch every Sunday around here. Getty’s had more than enough time to demonstrate progress and he has not. His fate should already be sealed. Jones needs to start to win. He needs to be a playmaker and not just the occasional run because he doesn’t have the athleticism to avoid hits. Win some fucking games Jones.
The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.
I guess we'll see.
They have a winning record right now and will still have one when the calendar turns to November, and probably will still be playing meaningful games in December. We have not had that under Gettleman to date. And they're roster was pretty abysmal even before they blew a top-10 pick on a QB bust. And they play in the toughest division in the NFL, while the Giants play in the weakest.
It's just not even close - this isn't about shiny objects, it's about the reality that a rebuild doesn't have to take as long as it's taking Gettleman. He is making too many mistakes and it's causing repeated setbacks in the process.
And last year he rushed for 550 yards, 7 TDs, and at almost 6 ypc.
Jones can move, but he's not nearly the threat on the ground as Murray, which helps differentiate him from other QBs...
People are wowed by Jones' long speed, and it is impressive, but I think too many people overlook the fact that he's a long strider who takes a few strides to get up to speed. He's much more fast than quick and doesn't have much elusiveness.
It's easy to jump on the bandwagon of whoever is winning and say "this is the right way to do things". Because hey, who can argue, they're winning.
Coming off the 5-10 year last year, I'd love to see where all of the "Watch out for the Cardinals, the Cardinals are doing things the right way" posters were. Same thing with Cleveland with Dorsey and Baker Mayfield.... Look out for Cleveland. Oh no, we gifted the Jets Sam Darnold! Josh Freeman is better than Eli Manning (2009). Rex and the Jets with Sanchez are the way to do it! The list goes on and on.
As mentioned, the Cardinals have the longest championship drought in the modern era. The Giants have been to and won a Superbowl every decade for the past 40 years.
So we'll see.
It may not be your intent to defend the Giants, but it does come across that way.
Besides, is the point that the way that the Cardinals handled their rebuild is the right way, or just that it's possible to do so quicker than DG has done here? Is it that the Cardinals are doing it the right way, as if there's only one right way? Or is it that the Giants are very clearly doing it the wrong way because it doesn't have to take this long and be this dismal?
While I'm sure some are looking to celebrate the Cardinals' turnaround, my view on it isn't that we should emulate the Cards necessarily, but we have got to stop doing whatever it is that we're doing that's resulting in this taking as long as it is. The league is built for parity; it's built for teams to rebound back to the middle fairly quickly. It takes a lot of work to stay good for an extended period of time, and it takes just as much incompetence to stay bad for an extended period of time.
Give Jones "average" pass protection and run blocking and you will see good numbers and less turnovers.
Give Jones "average" pass protection and run blocking and you will see good numbers and less turnovers.
oh well.. who is the worst OL? what are the 5 worst and how different are they than the giants?
He has to do better. If he can't we should move on in spite of the excuses.
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In comment 15025468 Johnny5 said:
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Joe Judge for 1 year.
Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?
In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.
I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.
Jim whether they are flashes in the pan or not, it doesn't change the fact that it took them 1.5 years to get to where they are now. Let's see first how Judge/Jones finish this year and then where they go next year.
If this was last year and they didn't have Deandre Hopkins, do they win that game last night? Or does it likely end up as a good effort not dissimilar from many of our games thus far this year?
That’s entirely reasonable. I’d love to see Jones (and the OL) develop into something solid by the end of the year. Something that gives us a shot to compete with the big boys. But ... I can’t shake this feeling that we are behind the curve of the evolution of the position. I feel like we are trying to groom a post- up center when the smarter teams are focusing on shooting threes. We keep doubling down on “building the line” to protect our QB at the expense of other neglected positions, year after year, following an ancient football code that is not necessarily the only way to skin a cat. Hope it works ... but simultaneously looking at Tua next week too.
Wow, it is hard to read all this long chain of hope-sucking negativity.
Jones definitely would have won at least 1 or 2 more games with the most average defense. Or offense. Even special teams have let the team down at times.
It is not all on him. Some day we may come to love his toughness, courage, accuracy, competitive spirit, etc. Once the turnovers end of course. I believe that day may come: we need to wait and see. Please.
As long as good old Eli was on the team the organisation tried to say they always had a chance, but they wasted years from his career by supplying him with virtually no offensive line (which they still don't have), and the once proud defense became a joke (thank goodness it looks like it's getting better but there still isn't a Strahan or Umenyiora amongst the current crew).
Not to mention that during most of Manning's latter career with the Giants they had receivers who couldn't catch or hold on to the ball.
So the Giants are rebuilding from what, mediocrity?
They're not there yet. They're just putrid.
There are tons of fans who want the Giants to keep losing so they could draft a high pick, but do we want Gettleman making that choice again?
I'd rather have "sure stars" than "could be's" which is what Gettleman chooses.
FIRE HIM NOW! He's nearly as bad as Reese!