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Cardinals rebuild vs Gettleman Rebuild

ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 8:47 am
2018: Hired Steve Wilks, drafted Josh Rosen.
(Had one of the worst rosters in the NFL)

2019: Fired Wilks, hired Kliff. Moved on from Rosen, drafted Kyler.

2020: 5-2 and in playoff contention.

The Cardinals blew a top 10 pick, have had two coaches in three years and also have a second year QB and are miles ahead of the Giants.
Remember when prying Betcher away from them was a huge win?  
ron mexico : 10/26/2020 8:50 am : link
Fun times
We’ve blown a decade  
GiantsRage2007 : 10/26/2020 8:51 am : link
Worth of first round picks. Multiple top 10s. It adds up.
The Kingsbury hire struck me as demented  
cosmicj : 10/26/2020 8:52 am : link
When they announced it, yet I thought he coached the pants off of Shurmur in the Cards victory in NJ last year.

I’m glad you started this thread. I don’t think anyone would name the Cardinals’ front office as one if the leagues best, yet their rebuild is miles ahead of the Giants’.
And the Cards are playing...  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 8:54 am : link
in the best division in the NFL.

Meanwhile, the NFCE has been the worst division for at least the last two years and we can’t even sniff .500, let alone do other cool things like beating real teams.

RE: And the Cards are playing...  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 8:55 am : link
In comment 15024825 bw in dc said:
Quote:
in the best division in the NFL.

Meanwhile, the NFCE has been the worst division for at least the last two years and we can’t even sniff .500, let alone do other cool things like beating real teams.


Remember beating real teams? That was fun.
Hmmm, not so sure I agree  
jvm52106 : 10/26/2020 8:57 am : link
with your overall assessment but:

Rosen was a complete failure. Funny, some here wanted the Giants to trade for Rosen instead of drafting Haskins or Jones.. Hmmm..

Anyway, Rosen failed and Wilks was over his head. The Cards however had a RB, WR, Edge Rusher, CB etc to build around already.

Klingsbury comes in with his specific offensive style and gets the perfect QB for it. The also draft multiple Wr's and a standout S to boot. Then they trade for an all world WR and trade (last sesson) for a low cost RB who has played well for them... We held on to an aging QB for far too long and then drafted a RB way too high!!!
its the downside of the conservative approach  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2020 9:00 am : link
while I love Eli, really wanting another one has always been really unrealistic. It's had a compound effect too - it convinced ownership to give Eli another run, and when we finally moved on we tried finding the same person.

I loved what Arizona did with Rosen to Murray. They brought in a new HC with a specific plan and let him go and do it. Murray was such a massive upgrade for them. Worst case scenario he busts and they try again in a couple of years - I think that risk is always worth it.

I was slower to coming around to this type of thinking but come 2019 draft I would have been completely on board with Murray (if we were in position to take him).
and for anyone not paying attention  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2020 9:02 am : link
this is exactly why you let Joe Judge do whatever he wants to build his team. Get the GM he wants and get the fuck out of his way.
This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 9:03 am : link
While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.
Here’s another way to look at it.  
cosmicj : 10/26/2020 9:06 am : link
Both the Giants and the Cards spent the 2018 offseason making very bad decisions. And now the Cards are a playoff contender and the Giants are a franchise in crisis.

I’ve been generous in writing off Gettleman’s awful 2018 offseason because he walked into a bad situation and was suffering from cancer. He is a human being and deserving some understanding.

The problem is that the 2019 and 2020 offseasons haven’t helped elevate the team. Meanwhile the Cards GM, Keim, who was actually suspended for a very serious DUI infraction in the 2018 offseason (we are not taking the epitome of professionalism here) has rebuilt the team.
well heck...  
BillKo : 10/26/2020 9:09 am : link
...I went to bed after that final Locket catch!

Quite the comeback............
Britt  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2020 9:09 am : link
hard to hang my hat on that. Murray isn't "shiny". He's winning games putting up insane numbers. If he gets blasted and is out for a season, it is what it is. Dak is a half foot taller and 50 lb heavier and that didn't prevent his leg from snapping. It was a freak play, can't happen to anyone. And if it does happen, you pick towards the top of the draft again which is one thing that actually may happen now for Dallas - they may go something like 3-13 and will then be able to add in a great player, with the potential of Dak coming back at 100%.

Isn't that better than what we've been doing?
RE: This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
adamg : 10/26/2020 9:11 am : link
In comment 15024832 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.


Yeah Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson were flashes in the pan....
I'm talking about from a team rebuild standpoint.  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 9:11 am : link
It's easy to get excited about the Cardinals right now. They are off to a hot start and playing well.

We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year, and next.

My statement wasn't so much about the Giants as it was about people jumping onto the bandwagon of the hot hand as the "right" way to do things.
Are we going to have a dumbass  
Eli Wilson : 10/26/2020 9:12 am : link
Trade us a top 3 WR for a washed up RB also?

Doesn't Justin Pugh start for them?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/26/2020 9:12 am : link
The guy who was run out of town for not being good enough to play here?
the Cardinals have the longest championship  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 9:12 am : link
drought in North American sports history. Congrats to them for putting a decent team on the field for once.
Problem for the Giants  
nygiants16 : 10/26/2020 9:14 am : link
They lack talent in key spots and have talent in other spots..

2nd corner is a big issue for the defense, teama juat avoid throwing at Bradberry and pick on Lewis..

Edge rusher, Giants defense gets some pressure but they dont have that consistent edge rusher, an edge rusher can take over games and takes pressure off of the secondary..

Number 1 receiver, add a number 1 guy to Slayton and Shepard and you got a good to great receiving core, you need that guy who can consistently get open and take attention of the defense..

Oline, For all we know answer at left tackle ia Peart and Thomas at right with lemexiu at right guard, but at this moment Jones is still running for his life. Gates has played better and better at center, hernandez has played better this year but the line still is defecient..
RE: I'm talking about from a team rebuild standpoint.  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2020 9:16 am : link
In comment 15024839 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
It's easy to get excited about the Cardinals right now. They are off to a hot start and playing well.

We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year, and next.

My statement wasn't so much about the Giants as it was about people jumping onto the bandwagon of the hot hand as the "right" way to do things.


They nailed the most important position on the field and i'm 99% sure with Murray we are atleast .500 this year. People keep saying a better QB wouldn't do much better here and I really don't agree.
RE: This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 9:17 am : link
In comment 15024832 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.


It doesn’t matter if the Cardinals flame out in two years the fact that they got here so quick is the important part. Meanwhile we’re sitting in year 3 of a rebuild, heading into year 4 with no end in sight
RE: Doesn't Justin Pugh start for them?  
nygiants16 : 10/26/2020 9:17 am : link
In comment 15024841 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
The guy who was run out of town for not being good enough to play here?


because he waa constantly hurt
I think the best thing you can say about the Cards  
Chris684 : 10/26/2020 9:17 am : link
is that it's a lesson in business on recognizing sunk cost and the ability to move on. Many failures in business take place when leadership is unable to admit mistakes.

Sometimes it sucks and perhaps, Wilks specifically, got a raw deal being ousted after just 1 year but the Cards saw an opportunity and obviously they also saw Rosen was not the goods and they acted.

I think the lesson here for NYG is if you wind up with a crack at Lawrence, you take it. They won't have a shot at him unless Jones plays into them having that opportunity. That said, I don't expect he will or that they'll be in that position.

Side note, that Cards game last season was Shurmur's nail in the coffin.
RE: the Cardinals have the longest championship  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2020 9:18 am : link
In comment 15024842 KDavies said:
Quote:
drought in North American sports history. Congrats to them for putting a decent team on the field for once.


Well they have an MVP candidate at QB - what does their historical record have to do with that?
RE: RE: I'm talking about from a team rebuild standpoint.  
nygiants16 : 10/26/2020 9:20 am : link
In comment 15024845 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15024839 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


It's easy to get excited about the Cardinals right now. They are off to a hot start and playing well.

We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year, and next.

My statement wasn't so much about the Giants as it was about people jumping onto the bandwagon of the hot hand as the "right" way to do things.



They nailed the most important position on the field and i'm 99% sure with Murray we are atleast .500 this year. People keep saying a better QB wouldn't do much better here and I really don't agree.


If the Giants tailored the offense to him then i agree, but if you put him in this offense i dont think he would be as dangerous. It also helps whenever you are in trouble you have Hopkins.

Yiu can have the greatest QB without tslent and without thr right system they are not going to succeed, no great qb goes and does it by himself, every single one has at least a number 1 guy.

RE: RE: This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 9:21 am : link
In comment 15024846 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15024832 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.



It doesn’t matter if the Cardinals flame out in two years the fact that they got here so quick is the important part. Meanwhile we’re sitting in year 3 of a rebuild, heading into year 4 with no end in sight


An important distinction was made on that last night on the game thread.

The Cardinals roster, as a whole, was not nearly in as bad a shape as ours was in 2018 when Reese and McAdoo were ousted.

Quote:
Cards were not in worse shape than the Giants guys
montanagiant : 12:17 am : link : reply
2013 - 10-6
2014 - 11-5
2015 - 13-3
2016 - 7-8-1
2017 - 8-8
2018 - 3-13
2019 - 5-10


Our roster, starting in 2012, went to complete garbage. The core was completely gone. The Cardinals did not have nearly the hole we did to dig out of.
I never thought I’d be clamoring...  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 9:23 am : link
for the New York Football Giants organization to one day be run as well as the Arizona Cardinals.
RE: RE: RE: This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 9:25 am : link
In comment 15024855 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15024846 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15024832 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.



It doesn’t matter if the Cardinals flame out in two years the fact that they got here so quick is the important part. Meanwhile we’re sitting in year 3 of a rebuild, heading into year 4 with no end in sight



An important distinction was made on that last night on the game thread.

The Cardinals roster, as a whole, was not nearly in as bad a shape as ours was in 2018 when Reese and McAdoo were ousted.



Quote:


Cards were not in worse shape than the Giants guys
montanagiant : 12:17 am : link : reply
2013 - 10-6
2014 - 11-5
2015 - 13-3
2016 - 7-8-1
2017 - 8-8
2018 - 3-13
2019 - 5-10



Our roster, starting in 2012, went to complete garbage. The core was completely gone. The Cardinals did not have nearly the hole we did to dig out of.


The Cardinals roster was better than the Giants roster in 2018?

The 2018 Giants had:

Odell
Saqoun
Sheppard
Harrison
Vernon
Collins
Jenkins
Tomlinson

The Cardinals roster was equal or worse than what the Giants had in 2018.
And what do you mean it doesn't matter if the Cardinals roster  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 9:26 am : link
flames out in two years? Isn't building a sustainable championship window and keeping it open as long as you can the ultimate end game?

Lots of teams are flashes in the pan. I'd rather be the Seahawks than the Cardinals, if we're looking for a team to emulate.
RE: This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
Section331 : 10/26/2020 9:27 am : link
In comment 15024832 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.


Come on Britt, we've had 6 wins once in 7 years. We're not looking for the next shiny thing, we're looking for something that doesn't look like a steaming pile of shit.

The lengths some will got to defend this organization, or at least minimize its offenses, is beyond the pale.
The issues are pretty clear now (though many still don't agree)  
jvm52106 : 10/26/2020 9:30 am : link
1) Eli was held way way too long.
2) Shurmur was the wrong choice from the get go.
3) After all that we doubled down on ELI again and drafted a RB at #2 who should not have been taken. I don't care if he is Barry Sanders, your offense was poor up front and your QB was aged (not even aging).
4) Drafting Jones at 6 can be questioned but I still think he is the goods. The other picks can be questioned when you consider what we have assembled. First D.Lawrence could be a pro bowler but, he hasn't shown that yet and in a 3-4 he is a tad limited on his overall impact. Add in the fact that we drafted a few other DT's all in Rds 1-3 and we have too much draft capital in a position that doesn't usually see that kind of investment for teams playing a 3-4. The when you haven't drafted an impact backer in YEARS and our rush is a joke, you have made those DT selections look even more questionable.
5) We have no skill position players that scare teams outside of Barkley and his play actually made it even easier for teams to stop the Giants. Barkley was a target (look at week 1) and teams dared the Giants to beat them with the pass because we have no threat to throw to and our Oline is so bad they know we will give up sacks. I think Barkley sometimes becomes the focus of the offense- force him the ball but, in the run game we go nothing and in the passing game he has never really shown an Alvin Kamara smoothness in catching the ball. Now that Barkley isn't there you see just how poor our WR's are.
6) The Giants drafted guys based on talent/athleticism but, they then forced them to play a scheme that didn't fit them. EE was asked to block a lot- knowing he is horrible at it and now we are seeing that his speed and athleticism doesn't mean good pass catcher and route runner..
7) The Giants right now are at point where they have to commit in one of two ways:
a) They are all in on DJ and they focus on getting the Oline right and add some firepower.
b) They are not keeping DJ and need to move him before the draft or risk getting NOTHING much in return.

I think DJ is the guy and just needs help. Many here are ignoring the fact that we could have and should have beat Dallas, Philadelphia and quite possibly Chicago.. The offense has almost no threats in the passing game and yet we had the lead in both the Philly and Dallas games. The defense cannot make game changing plays. They cannot turn the tide when it is needed. We have multiple high rd picks on the DL, FA signings at LB and a big FA at CB. Yet, we cannot make the plays when it is most needed. Give the offense some play makers and give DJ a bit of time and the he will be fine.


At the risk of infuriating certain people ...  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 9:30 am : link
.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.

It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.
RE: And what do you mean it doesn't matter if the Cardinals roster  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 9:31 am : link
In comment 15024864 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
flames out in two years? Isn't building a sustainable championship window and keeping it open as long as you can the ultimate end game?

Lots of teams are flashes in the pan. I'd rather be the Seahawks than the Cardinals, if we're looking for a team to emulate.


You can’t get to sustainable if you can’t rebuild a team. Getting to this point for the Cardinals will be a net positive for their future. The Giants are still two years away from any net positive and they started the rebuild at the same time.
Here’s an idea for the completely uninformed...  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 9:32 am : link
go look at that Cardinals OL in 2018. I remember Sy even commenting on the disaster it was.

It was worse than ours. It made ours look like the ‘93 Cowboys. Yet, magically, just a few years later, the Cards are a competitive team in the best division in football.

Meanwhile, at Jints Central another year of excuses...
RE: RE: RE: This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/26/2020 9:33 am : link
In comment 15024855 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15024846 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15024832 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.



It doesn’t matter if the Cardinals flame out in two years the fact that they got here so quick is the important part. Meanwhile we’re sitting in year 3 of a rebuild, heading into year 4 with no end in sight



An important distinction was made on that last night on the game thread.

The Cardinals roster, as a whole, was not nearly in as bad a shape as ours was in 2018 when Reese and McAdoo were ousted.



Quote:


Cards were not in worse shape than the Giants guys
montanagiant : 12:17 am : link : reply
2013 - 10-6
2014 - 11-5
2015 - 13-3
2016 - 7-8-1
2017 - 8-8
2018 - 3-13
2019 - 5-10



Our roster, starting in 2012, went to complete garbage. The core was completely gone. The Cardinals did not have nearly the hole we did to dig out of.


This is a terrible point. Of their offensive starters, only Fitzgerald and Humphries were on that 8-8 2017 team.
Don't worry.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/26/2020 9:34 am : link
Our rebuild should be completed by 2037, maybe 2038.
I'm really not even trying to defend the Giants here....  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 9:35 am : link
that wasn't my point.

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon of whoever is winning and say "this is the right way to do things". Because hey, who can argue, they're winning.

Coming off the 5-10 year last year, I'd love to see where all of the "Watch out for the Cardinals, the Cardinals are doing things the right way" posters were. Same thing with Cleveland with Dorsey and Baker Mayfield.... Look out for Cleveland. Oh no, we gifted the Jets Sam Darnold! Josh Freeman is better than Eli Manning (2009). Rex and the Jets with Sanchez are the way to do it! The list goes on and on.

As mentioned, the Cardinals have the longest championship drought in the modern era. The Giants have been to and won a Superbowl every decade for the past 40 years.

So we'll see.
Moral of the story is that  
Metnut : 10/26/2020 9:35 am : link
if you’re bad enough to get the #1 overall pick, no coach/GM/QB should be safe.
RE: At the risk of infuriating certain people ...  
markky : 10/26/2020 9:38 am : link
In comment 15024869 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.

It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.


Brady is very good at avoiding the rush unless it comes up the middle. I wouldn't put him strictly in the category of stationary pocket passer.
Dave Gettleman is just one Draft away  
M.S. : 10/26/2020 9:39 am : link

From making the Giants a contender.
RE: Moral of the story is that  
UConn4523 : 10/26/2020 9:42 am : link
In comment 15024880 Metnut said:
Quote:
if you’re bad enough to get the #1 overall pick, no coach/GM/QB should be safe.


I don't agree. Judge isn't in over his head like Wilks was. But yeah if we pick #1 overall then our new GM should pick his guy for QB.
RE: RE: At the risk of infuriating certain people ...  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 9:44 am : link
In comment 15024883 markky said:
Quote:
In comment 15024869 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.

It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.



Brady is very good at avoiding the rush unless it comes up the middle. I wouldn't put him strictly in the category of stationary pocket passer.


True. He’s a master. And the NFL is littered with failed/injured pocket passers, who need all sorts of infrastructure and incredible skill around them. Having a guy who makes the first guy miss every single time, a guy with the athleticism to avoid big hits ... it just seems like a way to bypass some of the need for building traditionally.
Not sure what we have to wait and see for. While you may  
LBH15 : 10/26/2020 9:50 am : link
or may not believe whether teams like Arizona or the Browns are for real, it doesn't seem like it takes much to notice the Giants are not. Watching other teams play just adds to the frustration.

Draw your own rebuilding curve and determine where the NYG are on it after these last several years.
RE: Dave Gettleman is just one Draft away  
Dnew15 : 10/26/2020 9:52 am : link
In comment 15024884 M.S. said:
Quote:

From making the Giants a contender.


Yikes - I wish I were as optimistic as you are about this statement.

I think I"m about as opposite as you can be on that one.
.....  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 10/26/2020 9:52 am : link
I think the only people calling the GMEN a "rebuild" since Gettlemen took over are the fans.

Of course nobody knows the plan for sure, but when Gettleman's first charge as GM was to build a team to win one last superbowl with Eli Manning.

Rebuilding teams don't make middle of the road left tackles the highest paid at their position. They don't take running backs #2 overall. John Mara looked at the roster and thought they were a couple pieces away from a championship, which is laughable.

Rebuilding teams trade veterans who are not a part of the long term plan. Most importantly, they start with a new franchise quarterback. Those things didn't happen till the end of the 2018 season.

In my opinion, the Giants totally miscalculated what they could accomplish with a 38 year old Eli Manning, and it created a dominoe affect delaying the rebuild.
RE: RE: Dave Gettleman is just one Draft away  
M.S. : 10/26/2020 9:55 am : link
In comment 15024895 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15024884 M.S. said:


Quote:



From making the Giants a contender.



Yikes - I wish I were as optimistic as you are about this statement.

I think I"m about as opposite as you can be on that one.

Apologies -- I was being facetious.
RE: I never thought I’d be clamoring...  
The_Boss : 10/26/2020 9:59 am : link
In comment 15024858 bw in dc said:
Quote:
for the New York Football Giants organization to one day be run as well as the Arizona Cardinals.


It’s ridiculous at this point how fast they’ve ascended while this operation is going in the opposite direction. How fucking Dave survives a 1-3 win year is beyond comprehension.
RE: At the risk of infuriating certain people ...  
GiantEgo : 10/26/2020 10:00 am : link
In comment 15024869 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.

It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.


I think you are exactly right but as an old guy I really don't enjoy the kind of schoolyard football the NFL is turning toward.
I can't speak for everyone here  
Greg from LI : 10/26/2020 10:01 am : link
But my point is not that the Cardinals are some kind of blueprint and the Giants should do things exactly as they do it. What I take from this is that the Gettleman defenders' club mantra has been that everyone is too impatient, that it take many, many years to rebuild a team, that it's not really Gettleman's fault that the 2020 New York Giants are an awful football team.

The Cardinals are a refutation of all that, and don't give me any nonsense about what a better position they were in than the Giants. Baloney. The 2018 Cardinals were a significantly worse team than the 2018 Giants, and there are virtually no holdovers from the last good Bruce Arians team in 2015 and the team that beat the Seahawks last night. They have one starter remaining on offense (Larry Fitz on his last NFL legs) and one on defense (a declining Patrick Peterson).

And I'm not defending Gettleman,  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 10:02 am : link
the Giants record speaks for itself. Overall, I'm not really defending the Giants either.

The only people I really want to defend these days are Judge, Jones, and to a lesser extent, Saquon, because I don't feel like they've been dealt a fair hand. I like these guys.

If Gettleman is gone at the end of the year, doesn't bother me one bit.
The Rosen to Murray thing shows  
widmerseyebrow : 10/26/2020 10:04 am : link
Some honesty. They knew what Rosen was after a year and were able to be honest about his ceiling and move on. This organization likes to ride their mistakes all the way through the contract without even the threat of bringing in camp competition.
RE: I can't speak for everyone here  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 10:04 am : link
In comment 15024908 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But my point is not that the Cardinals are some kind of blueprint and the Giants should do things exactly as they do it. What I take from this is that the Gettleman defenders' club mantra has been that everyone is too impatient, that it take many, many years to rebuild a team, that it's not really Gettleman's fault that the 2020 New York Giants are an awful football team.

The Cardinals are a refutation of all that, and don't give me any nonsense about what a better position they were in than the Giants. Baloney. The 2018 Cardinals were a significantly worse team than the 2018 Giants, and there are virtually no holdovers from the last good Bruce Arians team in 2015 and the team that beat the Seahawks last night. They have one starter remaining on offense (Larry Fitz on his last NFL legs) and one on defense (a declining Patrick Peterson).


This was my exact point.
Never been impressed with anything I've seen from Murray  
ghost718 : 10/26/2020 10:04 am : link
Makes 1 pass a game maybe,that you can say was difficult.

The fact he thinks he's hot shit should be a warning sign.

WIthout counterpoint....  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 10:06 am : link
this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
DG and the franchise's biggest mistake  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/26/2020 10:07 am : link
was trying to win with Eli. That set them back, what 2 years? The whole we can rebuild at the same time? That was utter horseshit and a terrible plan. Drafting Jones WHILE you have ELi? Talk about zero direction or operating with Mara handcuffing you. They are a lost franchise right now.
RE: DG and the franchise's biggest mistake  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 10:11 am : link
In comment 15024922 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
was trying to win with Eli. That set them back, what 2 years? The whole we can rebuild at the same time? That was utter horseshit and a terrible plan. Drafting Jones WHILE you have ELi? Talk about zero direction or operating with Mara handcuffing you. They are a lost franchise right now.


Except that historically teams had been doing that for decades.
And having a transition plan is actually not a bad thing.  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 10:12 am : link
It didn't work, but it wasn't some unheard of proposition.
RE: WIthout counterpoint....  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 10:13 am : link
In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.


Again nobody ever said let’s be the Cardinals. The point is it doesn’t take this long to rebuild. And not even talking about rebuilding to the Cardinals level, the Giants aren’t even at mediocre yet.
RE: and for anyone not paying attention  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/26/2020 10:15 am : link
In comment 15024830 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
this is exactly why you let Joe Judge do whatever he wants to build his team. Get the GM he wants and get the fuck out of his way.


I think that's what we are going to get. The right move is bring in the coach first, then the GM. Get me a guy that has a vision for his football team and give him a GM that he can work with that will get him players he wants to fit that vision. The other way around is antiquated and makes the GM the true power which makes no sense, especially when you don't have a Steelers/Ravens type FO.

IMO Judge seems to be have given more power of the bat then I can remember and I think ownership is fully bought into the guy. DG queitly retires and Judge brings in his guy.

I was talking to my Cowboys buddy yesterday and he was depressed and I welcomed him to the suck. However, it felt really disengious because Dallas seems to be a sinking ship and it feels like a new day as a Giants fan with Judge in town. People will cry about year 1 of the forever ongoing rebuild, but thats what it is. This time I actually have lots of faith because they got the HC right and probably already have the QB in place.
I've stated every year....  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 10:16 am : link
that this league, and parity, is designed for teams to routinely go from worst to first. Happens every year. Happened with the 49ers. Happening with the Cardinals. The league is designed to do this.

The fact that we can't get it done, even in this age of parity, is an indictment of the front office.

THAT SAID... Those teams were all in year 2 or 3 of consistency, and Joe Judge deserves another shot next year to do the same. Gettleman I don't care about.
RE: And having a transition plan is actually not a bad thing.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/26/2020 10:17 am : link
In comment 15024929 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
It didn't work, but it wasn't some unheard of proposition.


You misunderstand me, it's the sheer idiocy of thinking they could win with Eli and this roster. That was the mistake. Then in ELi's last year, drafting Jones instead of someone like Josh Allen who could actually help Eli win. They set him up to fail and the whole franchise fell too.
Well, whatever happened, which we don't know.....  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 10:20 am : link
We're not a year and a half into it, and this technically is Jones' first year of being the guy, and Judge's first year overall. So we're just going to have to show some patience for these guys. We don't have much choice.

Gettleman is out of rope.
RE: RE: RE: I'm talking about from a team rebuild standpoint.  
Black_Flag : 10/26/2020 10:20 am : link
In comment 15024853 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15024845 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15024839 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


It's easy to get excited about the Cardinals right now. They are off to a hot start and playing well.

We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year, and next.

My statement wasn't so much about the Giants as it was about people jumping onto the bandwagon of the hot hand as the "right" way to do things.



They nailed the most important position on the field and i'm 99% sure with Murray we are atleast .500 this year. People keep saying a better QB wouldn't do much better here and I really don't agree.



If the Giants tailored the offense to him then i agree, but if you put him in this offense i dont think he would be as dangerous. It also helps whenever you are in trouble you have Hopkins.

Yiu can have the greatest QB without tslent and without thr right system they are not going to succeed, no great qb goes and does it by himself, every single one has at least a number 1 guy.


What #1 guy did Eli have?
now a year and a half into it  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 10:20 am : link
.
RE: RE: And having a transition plan is actually not a bad thing.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/26/2020 10:21 am : link
In comment 15024941 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
In comment 15024929 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


It didn't work, but it wasn't some unheard of proposition.



You misunderstand me, it's the sheer idiocy of thinking they could win with Eli and this roster. That was the mistake. Then in ELi's last year, drafting Jones instead of someone like Josh Allen who could actually help Eli win. They set him up to fail and the whole franchise fell too.


What I'm trying to say is that if there IS a plan, the plan is some half hearted piece of shit plan. And we are all seeing the result.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm talking about from a team rebuild standpoint.  
nygiants16 : 10/26/2020 10:22 am : link
In comment 15024949 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
In comment 15024853 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 15024845 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15024839 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


It's easy to get excited about the Cardinals right now. They are off to a hot start and playing well.

We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year, and next.

My statement wasn't so much about the Giants as it was about people jumping onto the bandwagon of the hot hand as the "right" way to do things.



They nailed the most important position on the field and i'm 99% sure with Murray we are atleast .500 this year. People keep saying a better QB wouldn't do much better here and I really don't agree.



If the Giants tailored the offense to him then i agree, but if you put him in this offense i dont think he would be as dangerous. It also helps whenever you are in trouble you have Hopkins.

Yiu can have the greatest QB without tslent and without thr right system they are not going to succeed, no great qb goes and does it by himself, every single one has at least a number 1 guy.




What #1 guy did Eli have?


umm Plaxico, he also had a veteran possession receiver in Toomer, Then he had Nicks whonwas a number 1 when healthy, Cruz who was an elite slot guy
RE: Here’s an idea for the completely uninformed...  
lax counsel : 10/26/2020 10:23 am : link
In comment 15024871 bw in dc said:
Quote:
go look at that Cardinals OL in 2018. I remember Sy even commenting on the disaster it was.

It was worse than ours. It made ours look like the ‘93 Cowboys. Yet, magically, just a few years later, the Cards are a competitive team in the best division in football.

Meanwhile, at Jints Central another year of excuses...


This is a point that seems lost on many. I remember reading in many places, that the 2018 Cardinals line was historically bad. Somehow, they are now good enough to support the 9th ranked offense in the NFL while the Giants rock the 31st ranked offense.
the key thing from the Cards (& SF & CAR & BUF & TEN & MIA)  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 10:25 am : link
is that coaching is destiny. Perhaps even more than getting the QB right the reasons for those teams turnarounds start with Kingsbury, Shananhan, Rhule, McDermott, Vrabel, and Flores.

You can blow top 10 picks (Rosen, S. Thomas). You can draft a DT with 0 sacks #7 overall (Brown). You can trade 2 young core players (Tunsil/Fitz). You can give a crappy RB who isn't even as good as his backup a huge contract (Drake). You can sign a mediocre FA QB (Bridgewater). You can trade for a QB who has been very up and down (Garapolo). You can sign 2 different expensive RBs who don't even start (49ers). You can draft a RT in the top 10 (McGlinchey) and a G in the first round (Tomlinson). you can sign aging FAs when it seems like your team has no business doing so off losing seasons (Sherman, Hopkins).

There is more than one way to skin a cat building a roster and you can become a competitive team very quick - IF - you hire the right head coach.

That's the #1 thing we need to hope to get out of this season. I've seen enough from Jones that if Judge is the right head coach he will also be able to mold Jones into the right QB. Already this year he's had this team in position to win games if Jones could have done what Kyler has done to deliver with the game on the line. Perhaps if he had Deandre Hopkins instead of Golden Tate or Evan Engram that would have happened a few more times. It definitely would have happened on Thursday. But at the end of the day you are what your record is - and if you notice it did take a 2nd or even 3rd year for some of the coaches of those organizations we now envy. Rhule is the only guy who had success right away though perhaps they are coming back down to earth a little bit now.
I can't imagine  
crick n NC : 10/26/2020 10:26 am : link
There are enough fans defending Gentleman and, or the Giants rebuild to be counted.
Who is saying gettleman should stay?  
nygiants16 : 10/26/2020 10:28 am : link
pointing out the Giants are defecient in key spot is not defending Gettleman..

Nobkdy is defending the Giants, i think most are saying the Giants have failed
RE: .....  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 10:28 am : link
In comment 15024896 CoughlinHandsonHips said:
Quote:
I think the only people calling the GMEN a "rebuild" since Gettlemen took over are the fans.

Of course nobody knows the plan for sure, but when Gettleman's first charge as GM was to build a team to win one last superbowl with Eli Manning.

Rebuilding teams don't make middle of the road left tackles the highest paid at their position. They don't take running backs #2 overall. John Mara looked at the roster and thought they were a couple pieces away from a championship, which is laughable.

Rebuilding teams trade veterans who are not a part of the long term plan. Most importantly, they start with a new franchise quarterback. Those things didn't happen till the end of the 2018 season.

In my opinion, the Giants totally miscalculated what they could accomplish with a 38 year old Eli Manning, and it created a dominoe affect delaying the rebuild.


Bingo. It is what it is. Eli won 2 championships with the Giants. They tried to build around him while he was still playing. I look at the rebuild as being in year two. I always looked at it in a three year timeline. Year 1 they got their QB. Year 2 they hopefully solidified their OL for the future. (No, that does not mean their OL is fixed, but between Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux, they hopefully have a solid OL to go with Hernandez, Gates, etc. by next year. Year 3 offseason, they need to get some weapons for Jones.
RE: RE: Here’s an idea for the completely uninformed...  
Producer : 10/26/2020 10:30 am : link
In comment 15024954 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 15024871 bw in dc said:


Quote:


go look at that Cardinals OL in 2018. I remember Sy even commenting on the disaster it was.

It was worse than ours. It made ours look like the ‘93 Cowboys. Yet, magically, just a few years later, the Cards are a competitive team in the best division in football.

Meanwhile, at Jints Central another year of excuses...



This is a point that seems lost on many. I remember reading in many places, that the 2018 Cardinals line was historically bad. Somehow, they are now good enough to support the 9th ranked offense in the NFL while the Giants rock the 31st ranked offense.


indeed. some here are now saying the 2018 Cards were pretty good. I watched several of their games. They were awful. Their line was worse than ours. The revisionism here is delicious.
Is this going to be like the "KC model"  
Matt M. : 10/26/2020 10:31 am : link
that was actually very specific to KC already being a playoff team when they took Mahomes?

The Cardinals' situation isn't easily boiled down to just Murray. They already had some good players in place to start with, they drafted WRs to compliment the new QB and, while they moved on from Rosen quickly to get Murray, they were able to deal him the next year.
RE: RE: DG and the franchise's biggest mistake  
Producer : 10/26/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 15024924 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15024922 Jim in Forest Hills said:


Quote:


was trying to win with Eli. That set them back, what 2 years? The whole we can rebuild at the same time? That was utter horseshit and a terrible plan. Drafting Jones WHILE you have ELi? Talk about zero direction or operating with Mara handcuffing you. They are a lost franchise right now.



Except that historically teams had been doing that for decades.


Your historical analysis is quite immaterial. Now they are a contender. They just beat the best team in the NFC. Like it or not they are arriving, and we are wallowing.
I agree that ownership wanted to see whether there was still magic in  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 10/26/2020 10:32 am : link
Eli, and that the rebuild didn't start when it should have. We patched players and coaching. Attempting to do that set us back in terms of the rebuild. I feel like we finally bit the bullet this year and starting to create the proper foundation.
RE: I can't imagine  
LBH15 : 10/26/2020 10:33 am : link
In comment 15024959 crick n NC said:
Quote:
There are enough fans defending Gentleman and, or the Giants rebuild to be counted.


Where did they go?
RE: WIthout counterpoint....  
Producer : 10/26/2020 10:33 am : link
In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.


Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.
the KC model was step 1 - hire andy reid step 2- fixed  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 10:35 am : link
the funny thing about this thread is Steve Keim is the perfect example - he was a moron when he hired Wilks and drafted Rosen. Many thought (myself included) hiring a middle tier CFB coach was moronic as well but he got it right. And now he's the envy.

It's all about hiring the right HC and the rest is noise. It's hard to turn things around with the wrong QB but it's impossible with the wrong HC.

Gettleman's biggest failure by a long shot was hiring Shurmur. We need to hope his greatest success was Judge.
RE: RE: I can't imagine  
crick n NC : 10/26/2020 10:35 am : link
In comment 15024975 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15024959 crick n NC said:


Quote:


There are enough fans defending Gentleman and, or the Giants rebuild to be counted.



Where did they go?


Or who were they in the first place? There is a tendency to get labeled as a hater or a defender when you're actually not doing either.
RE: RE: WIthout counterpoint....  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 10:36 am : link
In comment 15024976 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.



Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.


So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.

Britt...  
Dnew15 : 10/26/2020 10:38 am : link
In a league built on parity in a league built for teams to be year-year. In a league where in any year a team can go from last to first and vise-versa....why should fans remain patient?

Why are we giving multiple guys (GMs/coaches/players) multiple years?

Which one is it?

Just for the record. I don't agree with first premise(that the league is built for teams to be year-to-year).
RE: Is this going to be like the  
nygiants16 : 10/26/2020 10:38 am : link
In comment 15024969 Matt M. said:
Quote:
that was actually very specific to KC already being a playoff team when they took Mahomes?

The Cardinals' situation isn't easily boiled down to just Murray. They already had some good players in place to start with, they drafted WRs to compliment the new QB and, while they moved on from Rosen quickly to get Murray, they were able to deal him the next year.


People do not seem to understand this, the system in AZ is tailored to Murray..

The system to KC is tailored to Mahomes..

The system in Bal is tailored to Jackson..

You habe to build a system and have the pieces around the QB for the QB to succeed
RE: RE: WIthout counterpoint....  
LBH15 : 10/26/2020 10:40 am : link
In comment 15024976 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.



Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.


We coulda' been somebody. We coulda' been a contender.

RE: RE: RE: I can't imagine  
LBH15 : 10/26/2020 10:43 am : link
In comment 15024983 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 15024975 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15024959 crick n NC said:


Quote:


There are enough fans defending Gentleman and, or the Giants rebuild to be counted.



Where did they go?



Or who were they in the first place? There is a tendency to get labeled as a hater or a defender when you're actually not doing either.


I don't know, but I think he's on 3rd base.
RE: RE: RE: WIthout counterpoint....  
Producer : 10/26/2020 10:46 am : link
In comment 15024985 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15024976 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.



Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.



So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.


No I would not have drafted DJ is this is what I thought he was. I would have waited a year and gotten Tua or Herbert.
RE: Never been impressed with anything I've seen from Murray  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/26/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 15024919 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Makes 1 pass a game maybe,that you can say was difficult.

The fact he thinks he's hot shit should be a warning sign.


He's currently number 11 in passing yards. He has more yards and a higher completion % than Aaron Rodgers. With more attempts as well.
...  
christian : 10/26/2020 10:47 am : link
The first step in turning things around is getting out of the basement. A step many teams over the last three years have accomplished, and a step the Giants haven't managed.

The Giant have spent a grand total of 1 week in the last 3 years at .500. A Dave Gettleman general managed team has not had a winning record at any moment.

We can debate why some teams have turned the corner, whether they had better rosters, whether they will sustain it, etc. The constant for the Giants has been losing with Tommy Wiseau running the team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: WIthout counterpoint....  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 10:49 am : link
In comment 15025000 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15024985 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15024976 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.



Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.



So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.




No I would not have drafted DJ is this is what I thought he was. I would have waited a year and gotten Tua or Herbert.


What do you do if the teams with the top two picks draft Tua and Herbert, and you aren't one of the teams with one of the top two picks?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: WIthout counterpoint....  
Producer : 10/26/2020 10:55 am : link
In comment 15025005 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15025000 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15024985 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15024976 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.

The same people, the same things, posted over and over.

And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.

Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...

Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.



Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.



So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.




No I would not have drafted DJ is this is what I thought he was. I would have waited a year and gotten Tua or Herbert.



What do you do if the teams with the top two picks draft Tua and Herbert, and you aren't one of the teams with one of the top two picks?


Then wait for a star QB rather than spend a #6 on a QB with such serious flaws and few, if any, great qualities. We reached for Jones and thus lost the opportunity to draft a better QB.
lol  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 10:59 am : link
Yeah, Tua would probably already be broken in half playing behind this OL.
I love how people  
nygiants16 : 10/26/2020 11:01 am : link
already know what Jones is or isnt going to be, nobody knows, could he be a bust? absolutely but he could also still be a franchise qb...Nobody knows for sure
RE: I love how people  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 11:06 am : link
In comment 15025021 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
already know what Jones is or isnt going to be, nobody knows, could he be a bust? absolutely but he could also still be a franchise qb...Nobody knows for sure


All I want to see what Jones can do with a league average OL, and some healthy league average offensive weapons. To say he has few, if any, great qualities is just mind-boggling. The guy just had an 80 yard run less than a week ago, running faster than any QB since '18. In his rookie year, he threw 2 4 TD games and a 5 TD game, all with no interceptions.

.  
Gruber : 10/26/2020 11:10 am : link
They have a clear vision of how they want to play under Kliff Kingsbury and the front office is aligned with that. It helps that that vision is headed in the direction the NFL is overall headed, namely mobile quarterbacks, lots of passing.
Cardinals were smart enought to see they made a mistake with Rosen and bailed on it rather than hang around, but I clearly remember in Rosen's season there the Cards had the worst OL in the league, offering him no protection.
Kdavies and Ny16 amen  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 11:16 am : link
all I'd like to see is a receiver that catches some 50/50 balls regularly, or god forbid a ball that's an improbable catch.

Lockett put about 5 balls in his back pocket yesterday more difficult than the one Engram dropped. Hopkins TD catch was insane. A few weeks ago herbert threw a ball up to Mike Williams that was basically a hailmary to get in position to tie a game. Same with Wilson and DK. We lost in Dallas because Gallup went up and brought down 2 prayers. Hell, even against Pitt, Claypool made an impossible catch on a big 3rd down.

I know they are trying to rebuild a defense and the secondary is a huge need, but if I was going to 2nd guess any draft picks the past couple years it was the ones where they passed on Deebo, AJB, Metcalf, Claypool, Higgins, etc. All fit exactly they type of player this offense is desperately lacking and they were sitting there for the taking.
RE: At the risk of infuriating certain people ...  
AlwaysASpiral : 10/26/2020 11:18 am : link
In comment 15024869 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.

It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.


Made me think of an interesting possibility. Teams with VERY mobile/quick QB's can save money and draft capital on the OLINE and put their money into WR's, D-Line, etc. Makes the QB position (when you have a jitterbug) a very effective cost saving position. That said, you need a special RB for just an ok line.
fortunately this year  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 11:22 am : link
is supposed to be a better WR than last year. I can see them passing on WR in the first, but I would like one in the 2nd or 3rd.
There is no question that it sucks  
DonQuixote : 10/26/2020 11:22 am : link
to get passed by. There is definitely information there ...
RE: Hmmm, not so sure I agree  
santacruzom : 10/26/2020 11:29 am : link
In comment 15024828 jvm52106 said:
Quote:


Klingsbury comes in with his specific offensive style and gets the perfect QB for it.


You make it sound like those two things were common decisions any front office would make. I was frankly stunned that a first-time NFL head coach would be given the leeway to jettison the previous year's high first round QB and replace him with a polarizing, unconventional QB. Not many teams would allow that.
I love how it's refered to as the DG rebuild  
djm : 10/26/2020 11:31 am : link
but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.

Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.
RE: fortunately this year  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 11:34 am : link
In comment 15025050 KDavies said:
Quote:
is supposed to be a better WR than last year. I can see them passing on WR in the first, but I would like one in the 2nd or 3rd.


This year is probably comparable to last year, both better than 2019 - although everyone from the '19 class seems intent on hitting their ceiling projection.

I'd love to see Chase, Waddle, Bateman, or Devonta Smith in blue next year. Bateman especially seems like the exact type of WR needed. As do Robinson and Golladay in FA.
RE: I love how it's refered to as the DG rebuild  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 11:35 am : link
In comment 15025068 djm said:
Quote:
but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.

Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.


Lol ok. Does how it’s worded really matter?
RE: RE: I love how people  
Black_Flag : 10/26/2020 11:44 am : link
In comment 15025029 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15025021 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


already know what Jones is or isnt going to be, nobody knows, could he be a bust? absolutely but he could also still be a franchise qb...Nobody knows for sure



All I want to see what Jones can do with a league average OL, and some healthy league average offensive weapons. To say he has few, if any, great qualities is just mind-boggling. The guy just had an 80 yard run less than a week ago, running faster than any QB since '18. In his rookie year, he threw 2 4 TD games and a 5 TD game, all with no interceptions.


They already have that. Jones can't throw well enough to get respect from any defenses. you all act like they just rush their front four and get pressure on jones. They can pretty much pin their ears back and Jones will not do anything about it.
RE: I love how it's refered to as the DG rebuild  
LBH15 : 10/26/2020 11:50 am : link
In comment 15025068 djm said:
Quote:
but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.



Why is that of issue?
...  
christian : 10/26/2020 11:52 am : link
The Giants WR group is so average. I don’t love Shepard as a player, but getting him back and seeing what actual NFL quickness looks is eye opening. The Giants can’t rely on Engram and Barkley to generate pass yards. You have to have a guy who can make contested catches, bully corners, and post up in the end zone.

I look at Robby Anderson in Carolina, and just get a deep chuckle the Giants are paying Golden Tate more money in 20 & 21 than Anderson.
RE: RE: fortunately this year  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 11:54 am : link
In comment 15025074 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15025050 KDavies said:


Quote:


is supposed to be a better WR than last year. I can see them passing on WR in the first, but I would like one in the 2nd or 3rd.



This year is probably comparable to last year, both better than 2019 - although everyone from the '19 class seems intent on hitting their ceiling projection.

I'd love to see Chase, Waddle, Bateman, or Devonta Smith in blue next year. Bateman especially seems like the exact type of WR needed. As do Robinson and Golladay in FA.


I have mixed feelings on taking Chase that high. Incredible talent, but will have gone about a year and a half without playing. Plus I think talented WR can be had higher in the draft. Might rather a Surtain, Parsons, or Rousseau. I'm hoping one of the others you listed or Moore falls to the 2nd, or get a Marshall, Williams, or Terry.
RE: RE: RE: fortunately this year  
KDavies : 10/26/2020 11:54 am : link
In comment 15025118 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15025074 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15025050 KDavies said:


Quote:


is supposed to be a better WR than last year. I can see them passing on WR in the first, but I would like one in the 2nd or 3rd.



This year is probably comparable to last year, both better than 2019 - although everyone from the '19 class seems intent on hitting their ceiling projection.

I'd love to see Chase, Waddle, Bateman, or Devonta Smith in blue next year. Bateman especially seems like the exact type of WR needed. As do Robinson and Golladay in FA.



I have mixed feelings on taking Chase that high. Incredible talent, but will have gone about a year and a half without playing. Plus I think talented WR can be had higher in the draft. Might rather a Surtain, Parsons, or Rousseau. I'm hoping one of the others you listed or Moore falls to the 2nd, or get a Marshall, Williams, or Terry.


Should say "could be had later in the draft"
RE: RE: RE: I love how people  
Producer : 10/26/2020 11:58 am : link
In comment 15025100 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
In comment 15025029 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15025021 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


already know what Jones is or isnt going to be, nobody knows, could he be a bust? absolutely but he could also still be a franchise qb...Nobody knows for sure



All I want to see what Jones can do with a league average OL, and some healthy league average offensive weapons. To say he has few, if any, great qualities is just mind-boggling. The guy just had an 80 yard run less than a week ago, running faster than any QB since '18. In his rookie year, he threw 2 4 TD games and a 5 TD game, all with no interceptions.




They already have that. Jones can't throw well enough to get respect from any defenses. you all act like they just rush their front four and get pressure on jones. They can pretty much pin their ears back and Jones will not do anything about it.


yes. Jones gets credit on here for being some kind of passing savant. Sure.. if you throw out all the passes he throws at feet and above heads. Making an occasional nice throw, doesn't mean he has the goods as a passer. He has fair arm talent and his accuracy is wildly overstated.
RE: .  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15025036 Gruber said:
Quote:
They have a clear vision of how they want to play under Kliff Kingsbury and the front office is aligned with that. It helps that that vision is headed in the direction the NFL is overall headed, namely mobile quarterbacks, lots of passing.
Cardinals were smart enought to see they made a mistake with Rosen and bailed on it rather than hang around, but I clearly remember in Rosen's season there the Cards had the worst OL in the league, offering him no protection.


I mentioned this earlier about the Cards OL in 2018. I really liked Rosen and made it a point to watch some Cards game. Now Rosen isn't Kyle Murray mobile, but he isn't the statue that Peyton was either. Yet, he was under relentless pressure and duress when he played because their OL was as ineffective as a pile of leaves. How Rosen made it through that season without something broken, torn, ripped, dislocated was an achievement in and of itself...
Rosen  
Simms : 10/26/2020 12:11 pm : link
What is his value these days??
RE: I love how it's refered to as the DG rebuild  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/26/2020 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15025068 djm said:
Quote:
but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.

Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.


True, but I watched the Giants and Cards play last season and Murray did nothing and the Cards still won because they ran the ball down the Giants throats. Murray is playing spectacularly right now, but they’ve shown the ability to win some games the past season and a half without it being “The Kyler Murray show”.

They lost Chandler Jones and still have at least two defensive players superior to anyone the Giants have.
RE: Rosen  
Gruber : 10/26/2020 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15025161 Simms said:
Quote:
What is his value these days??


Practice squad at Tampa Bay.
You can't prove anything, but I do wonder if things would have turned out differently for him if he'd landed with a perennially well-run organisation like Pittsburgh or Baltimore. I've seen analysts damn him, but few QBs arrive in the league without warts. Working with the right organisation, not being thrown straight in so quickly. As it was, he was named starting QB in week 4, behind a terrible OL.
RE: Here’s an idea for the completely uninformed...  
Thegratefulhead : 10/26/2020 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15024871 bw in dc said:
Quote:
go look at that Cardinals OL in 2018. I remember Sy even commenting on the disaster it was.

It was worse than ours. It made ours look like the ‘93 Cowboys. Yet, magically, just a few years later, the Cards are a competitive team in the best division in football.

Meanwhile, at Jints Central another year of excuses...
I remember Sy saying Rosen was in the worst situation he could remember from receivers to OL. That team was BAD!
RE: RE: At the risk of infuriating certain people ...  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15025046 AlwaysASpiral said:
Quote:
In comment 15024869 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.

It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.



Made me think of an interesting possibility. Teams with VERY mobile/quick QB's can save money and draft capital on the OLINE and put their money into WR's, D-Line, etc. Makes the QB position (when you have a jitterbug) a very effective cost saving position. That said, you need a special RB for just an ok line.


Exactly. In the traditional paradigm you build a line, get a bell cow back, let your pocket passer learn to read defenses and hope he doesn’t get killed. In the new paradigm, you get a guy with the fast twitch quickness to evade the first guy and slide to avoid hits, make the defense waste a spy on him, and fill in the blanks with pass catching RBs, WRs and TEs. The biggest flaw in this logic of course is ... maybe Kylers are just as rare as Peytons.

RE: RE: I love how it's refered to as the DG rebuild  
djm : 10/26/2020 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15025078 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15025068 djm said:


Quote:


but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.

Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.



Lol ok. Does how it’s worded really matter?


Dg is working within the Giants way. It's the Giants rebuild. Meaning he's not making all the decisions.

And Murray is playing Qb for the Cards. We'd have more than 1 win right now if he was playing for NYG.
The fallacy wasn't the decision to  
JCin332 : 10/26/2020 12:58 pm : link
it was a fine decision but was never going to be successful
with the crap OL and defense they put out on the field with him...

Look at the numbers the corpses of Brady, Brees, and Big Ben are putting up this year with good supporting casts...

The Cards certainly have made some good moves but as Britt mentioned didn't have as much ground to make up...and let's see how the season plays out for them...
RE: RE: RE: At the risk of infuriating certain people ...  
Producer : 10/26/2020 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15025226 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15025046 AlwaysASpiral said:


Quote:


In comment 15024869 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.

It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.



Made me think of an interesting possibility. Teams with VERY mobile/quick QB's can save money and draft capital on the OLINE and put their money into WR's, D-Line, etc. Makes the QB position (when you have a jitterbug) a very effective cost saving position. That said, you need a special RB for just an ok line.



Exactly. In the traditional paradigm you build a line, get a bell cow back, let your pocket passer learn to read defenses and hope he doesn’t get killed. In the new paradigm, you get a guy with the fast twitch quickness to evade the first guy and slide to avoid hits, make the defense waste a spy on him, and fill in the blanks with pass catching RBs, WRs and TEs. The biggest flaw in this logic of course is ... maybe Kylers are just as rare as Peytons.


what you're calling the traditional paradigm went out of fashion 20 years ago. Bell cow backs dont win championships anymore, if they ever did. Rodgers, Brady, Brees and Peyton never had bell cow backs. And they are not fast twitch run first guys. Neither is Mahomes. What all these QBs have in common is they make plays on their own when they have to. Often enough to win games. Often enough to win trophies.
Exactly Jim - other than Kyler, Russell Wilson is the only QB  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 12:58 pm : link
who has thrived despite poor OL play. Those guys are exceedingly rare. Dak is a mobile QB but the Cowboys success this year even when he was healthy was clearly impacted by the deteriorating of their OL.

And even Seattle, despite the success with poor OL play they've invested a lot - Duane Brown trade + signing, previously spent multiple high picks on guys like Okung, Ifedi, and Unger, and more recently Pocic and Lewis.

A huge part of Baltimore's success has been their OL. Same with KC.

So I don't begrudge the OL picks and I guess it's hard to begrudge DB picks also because we have seen first hand how easy it is to lose games when you have easily exploitable players defending good WRs.

Just wish they could have found a way to grab one of those explosive WRs since they were there for the taking in good value spots.
.  
Go Terps : 10/26/2020 12:59 pm : link
After the Philly game I posted that I thought that game would be an inflection point in this team's fortunes. I feel that way because of Judge, who I really, really like.

However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.

This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.
RE: .  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15025253 Go Terps said:
Quote:
After the Philly game I posted that I thought that game would be an inflection point in this team's fortunes. I feel that way because of Judge, who I really, really like.

However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.

This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.


If Jones isn't the guy, why not just cut bait now if someone better presents themselves. If not, I guess one more year is ok, but we're not winning anything until we move on.
RE: Rosen  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 1:02 pm : link
In comment 15025161 Simms said:
[quote] What is his value these days?? [/quote

Probably the same value as a low post center who doesn’t shoot 3s in the NBA — very little. A bet on Rosen and his limited evasiveness is a bet on building a wall around him, which is dependent on numerous drafts and injury and draft luck (look at “sure thing” A. Thomas). See contra what we’re likely to see in Miami starting this week with Tua (who was there for the taking at #4 — too unorthodox of an idea for our old timey front office).
if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 1:07 pm : link
the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.

His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.

Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
RE: .  
The_Boss : 10/26/2020 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15025253 Go Terps said:
Quote:
After the Philly game I posted that I thought that game would be an inflection point in this team's fortunes. I feel that way because of Judge, who I really, really like.

However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.

This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.


If I could get a 3rd from say the Bears for Jones, I’m pulling the trigger immediately.
RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
The_Boss : 10/26/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15025267 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.

His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.

Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.


You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?
RE: RE: .  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15025268 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 15025253 Go Terps said:


Quote:


After the Philly game I posted that I thought that game would be an inflection point in this team's fortunes. I feel that way because of Judge, who I really, really like.

However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.

This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.



If I could get a 3rd from say the Bears for Jones, I’m pulling the trigger immediately.


But they already have two other Jones' on their roster - Trubisky and Foles. Why would they do that?
RE: RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15025273 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 15025267 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.

His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.

Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.



You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?


No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.
RE: RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15025273 The_Boss said:
Quote:


You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?


100% yes. He's throwing the ball away and taking sacks more instead of forcing turnovers. On the 2 INT's he threw the past 2 games he made the correct decisions, just didn't make the throws he needed to (and both defenders made excellent INTs).

In the past 2 games Jones was 32/49 (65%) and has been at his best on the balls thrown 20+ yards downfield. He'd be above 70% competitions if Engram could catch. Garrett needs to continue to open up the offense more like he did early in the Philly game and it goes without saying the receivers around him need to catch the balls that hit them in both hands.
RE: RE: RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15025285 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15025273 The_Boss said:


Quote:




You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?



100% yes. He's throwing the ball away and taking sacks more instead of forcing turnovers. On the 2 INT's he threw the past 2 games he made the correct decisions, just didn't make the throws he needed to (and both defenders made excellent INTs).

In the past 2 games Jones was 32/49 (65%) and has been at his best on the balls thrown 20+ yards downfield. He'd be above 70% competitions if Engram could catch. Garrett needs to continue to open up the offense more like he did early in the Philly game and it goes without saying the receivers around him need to catch the balls that hit them in both hands.


nonsense.. Jones is 29th among starting QBs in completion % and he barely throws the ball downfield. At least Wentz is aggressive (with his low %) and piles on the yards. So far this season, Jones has demonstrated that he can't play in the NFL. Stop making stupid excuses for him. Accurate passers don't have the 29th best completion % in the NFL.
I just can’t wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
Britt in VA : 10/26/2020 1:18 pm : link
for whatever you can get, or cut him outright.

You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
Producer  
LG in NYC : 10/26/2020 1:19 pm : link
"Jones demonstrated he can't play in the NFL"?

not sure who you are since you just joined BBI but your credibility is pretty low with sweeping statements like that.

carry on.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:24 pm : link
In comment 15025290 LG in NYC said:
Quote:
"Jones demonstrated he can't play in the NFL"?

not sure who you are since you just joined BBI but your credibility is pretty low with sweeping statements like that.

carry on.


what does when I joined have to do with the reality that Jones is not special. Herbert just started playing and he is clearly running circles around Jones, both with the eye text and statistically. I'm a football and sports fan for 50 years. There aren't a lot of people who think Jones can be great and most of them are on this board. Jones was a reach at #6 and as it turns out it was a crucial mistake. Let's come to the realization. Pretending he is great isn't helping matters. And imagining he will one day be great, is an unlikely fantasy.
RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 1:24 pm : link
In comment 15025267 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.

His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.

Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.


Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.
RE: RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:25 pm : link
In comment 15025296 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15025267 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.

His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.

Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.



Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.


His passing is a bigger problem than his escapability.
RE: RE: RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 1:26 pm : link
In comment 15025279 Producer said:
Quote:

No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.


Agree to disagree because that's not at all what I see. He's made excellent throws to Tate, Engram, Shepard, and Slayton on the downfield passes that have been called this year and the statistics don't lie. He's had a solid completion % from day. Last year he had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Hard to do each of those things without accuracy.

This year he's definitely regressed from a pure production standpoint and generally appeared less decisive but it's hard to tell if that's the new offense or true regression. His improvement the past 2 weeks has me optimistic it's more the former.

Lastly a simple question, imagine the world where Engram catches that pass and the Giants are on a 2 game winning streak. You're still ready to cut bait on the guy and think he doesn't even "have a chance"?
Producer  
LG in NYC : 10/26/2020 1:31 pm : link
sorry, I have little time for anyone who makes sweeping ridiculous statements that fly in the face of actual facts.

Hmmm, I seem to recall DJ having multiple games last year where he was putting up multiple TD's per game... but let's pretend that didn't happen so you can tell us how much Herbert is (and he may very well be better - my beef is you acting like none of DJ's 3 and 4 TD games last year didn't happen)

so whatever level DJ ultimately gets to in his overall game, to say he "he has demonstrated he can't play in the NFL" is a comment that allows for no actual discussion b/c it is quite frankly a dumb statement to make.

anyway, I will go back to glossing over your silly comments.
RE: RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 1:34 pm : link
In comment 15025296 Jim from Katonah said:
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In comment 15025267 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.

His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.

Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.



Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.


Jim a few reactions:

1- I agree durability is my biggest concern based on his style of play. As it would be if Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, or Justin Herbert were our QB. Russell Wilson imo is the model and he's done a great job reducing his rushing attempts and minimizing the amount of contact he absorbs. Kyler would be very wise to emulate that. All of these guys take more hits and are called on for designed runs than I'd prefer my QB to take.

2- I'm not a believer in Fields and if they miraculously got the 1OA pick I'd have the same concern with Lawrence (I am a believer in Lawrence). With the trend towards rushing QB's they are all taking more hits unless they have the elite escapability AND smarts Russell Wilson has developed.

3- I wouldn't lump all the OL investments together. Reese clearly made mistakes and the new regime clearly hasn't gotten it resolved yet but they are 2 different things. My biggest regret this past offseason was not hiring Callahan. I'd have preferred him as OL coach even if it meant a different OC than Garrett. That would probably be my biggest criticism of Judge so far. I wish he'd have absorbed from Scarnechia how big of a deal an elite OL coach can be. Also I don't agree that it's a negative to have resources invested in OL. They just obviously need to get better at generating ROI on whatever investments they make (which is why I think Callahan was a big missed opportunity). Hopefully the apples didn't fall far in Columbo.
RE: RE: RE: RE: if you think Jones doesn't have a chance we're watching diff games  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:34 pm : link
In comment 15025301 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15025279 Producer said:


Quote:



No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.



Agree to disagree because that's not at all what I see. He's made excellent throws to Tate, Engram, Shepard, and Slayton on the downfield passes that have been called this year and the statistics don't lie. He's had a solid completion % from day. Last year he had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Hard to do each of those things without accuracy.

This year he's definitely regressed from a pure production standpoint and generally appeared less decisive but it's hard to tell if that's the new offense or true regression. His improvement the past 2 weeks has me optimistic it's more the former.

Lastly a simple question, imagine the world where Engram catches that pass and the Giants are on a 2 game winning streak. You're still ready to cut bait on the guy and think he doesn't even "have a chance"?


Yes. Personally, I cut bait on this guy. I mean, I certainly let him play out the season and who knows maybe there is a miracle. But I don't see Mahomes, Lamar, Wilson, Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Kyler, Herbert, even Ryan in this guy. I want the NY Giants to have a superstar QB who will carry them to the playoffs year after year. Our wins shouldn't rely on one pass to Engram. LAst night Wilson had his TE drop a TD in the end zone. He came back and threw another great pass. Wilson and Kyler make play after play. Yes, I agree Engram is a bum. A great QB comes back with other winning plays.
RE: I just can’t wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
Go Terps : 10/26/2020 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15025289 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
for whatever you can get, or cut him outright.

You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?


A competent NFL front office would. He's 4-15 as a starter and the offense has been abysmal. In that time we could have achieved similar success from almost any QB in the NFL. If he were an 8 year vet journeyman with that record we'd all be ecstatic to get a third rounder in trade.

The question you should be asking now is: am I interested in giving Jones a second contract? If the answer is no, then his value is only going down with every game that passes before he hits free agency. If the answer is yes, you're either drunk or overly influenced by hopes and wishes.

If the gods are just, very soon we'll have a new non-idiot GM to go with our promising head coach. When that happens, the rebuild actually starts...and they should be able to move forward from every player on the roster. Every single one. And when it comes to QB and RB we know two things:

- a QB on a rookie contract is a huge advantage
- paying a RB a second contract is foolish

Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?
RE: I just can’t wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
Thegratefulhead : 10/26/2020 1:38 pm : link
In comment 15025289 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
for whatever you can get, or cut him outright.

You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
You should ignore the worst takes, responding even in insult only encourages more bad takes.

Jones can't be judged yet. He is in his second system in 2 years without a normal preseason or camp. That second year jump often because they know the system after an entire offseason in it after a season of playing it, they can play faster.

I admit to being very nervous about his inability to hold on to the ball but he does posses some plus traits.

It really is as close to apples to apples comparison as you can get for rebuilds and DG looks really bad comparatively. I will give him until the end of they year.

Make no mistake this is 100% DG's team, in DG's third season, and it looks awful without a lot to look forward to. Is there anyone on BBI who is like...Next year, we are going to be the shit because of X Y Z. Some people point to Judge but that is nothing more than a guess because he said some typical coach speak they liked. Remember how happy everyone was because Shurmur was an adult? That is now how our bar has fallen, we were happy that our new head coach was an adult with a terrible head coaching record. FFS. There is zero success as a HC for Judge to lean on to make that speculation about him as anything more than hope.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:40 pm : link
In comment 15025307 LG in NYC said:
Quote:
sorry, I have little time for anyone who makes sweeping ridiculous statements that fly in the face of actual facts.

Hmmm, I seem to recall DJ having multiple games last year where he was putting up multiple TD's per game... but let's pretend that didn't happen so you can tell us how much Herbert is (and he may very well be better - my beef is you acting like none of DJ's 3 and 4 TD games last year didn't happen)

so whatever level DJ ultimately gets to in his overall game, to say he "he has demonstrated he can't play in the NFL" is a comment that allows for no actual discussion b/c it is quite frankly a dumb statement to make.

anyway, I will go back to glossing over your silly comments.


fine ignore me.. Daniel Jones is bottom three in comp % and bottom 3 in QBR. That shows he can play? His numbers last year were better but nothing approaching elite - below middle of the pack. This is not the resume of a top-5 QB.
Terps - I have 0 attachment to Jones or Barkley except asset value  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 1:45 pm : link
I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.

Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.

I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
RE: Terps - I have 0 attachment to Jones or Barkley except asset value  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:49 pm : link
In comment 15025342 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.

Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.

I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.


You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.

Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?
and..  
Producer : 10/26/2020 1:52 pm : link
you're basing "expert" evals on Aikman and Simms?

In addition to being awful in the booth they are terrible with their evals of other QBs. They don;t want to put guys down. I don;t trust anything they have to say about how young QBs are faring. They say Tyrod Taylor is good.
RE: RE: RE: I love how it's refered to as the DG rebuild  
ajr2456 : 10/26/2020 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15025239 djm said:
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In comment 15025078 ajr2456 said:


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In comment 15025068 djm said:


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but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.

Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.



Lol ok. Does how it’s worded really matter?



Dg is working within the Giants way. It's the Giants rebuild. Meaning he's not making all the decisions.

And Murray is playing Qb for the Cards. We'd have more than 1 win right now if he was playing for NYG.


Is he though? He’s gone the opposite direction of what Reese was doing and none of its worked out. This is Gettleman’s rebuild, he’s responsible. If it makes you feel better we can call the thread Keim vs Gettleman, but it’s all the same.
Terps you said you believe in Judge  
BigBlueCane : 10/26/2020 2:04 pm : link
but you're ready to throw Jones out the door w/o considering Judge's opinion of him?

That doesn't make any sense.

If you trust Judge and think he's the guy to do the total rebuild. Let him make the call on who stays and who goes. From Jones to Barkley to whomever.

RE: RE: Terps - I have 0 attachment to Jones or Barkley except asset value  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 2:05 pm : link
In comment 15025347 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15025342 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.

Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.

I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.



You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.

Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?


I do. I question how much you actually watch the Giants if you don't think Jones throws the football accurately, but no need to debate something we each see so differently.
RE: RE: RE: Terps - I have 0 attachment to Jones or Barkley except asset value  
Producer : 10/26/2020 2:11 pm : link
In comment 15025368 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15025347 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15025342 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.

Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.

I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.



You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.

Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?



I do. I question how much you actually watch the Giants if you don't think Jones throws the football accurately, but no need to debate something we each see so differently.


Can you read numbers? Because there isn't a single solitary number that shows Jones is any better than the 29th (maybe) most accurate starting passer in the NFL. A very accurate passer should be somewhere around 68%. Add to that is truly abysmal yds / att and yds / comp. And then when I watch him he is basically throwing the ball all over the place, usually inaccurately, mostly short dump offs. Then he makes a few good throws. He's not going to be in this league for long with play like that.
RE: RE: I just can’t wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/26/2020 2:15 pm : link
In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?


And I don’t get why anyone would continue to make wins and losses an arbiter of any individual player on a football team, even the QB. Josh Allen has more career wins in which his team scores 17 or less points than Daniel Jones has in total. The Chiefs won their division two years in a row before Mahomes became the starter, yet people here would have you believe they were the Cleveland Browns before he came along. What some are asking of Jones hasn’t been done by any active QB on a team this poor this early into a player’s career. I see people on BBI applauding Joe Burrow for something Daniel Jones did 4 or 5 times last season. I would gladly draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but I wouldn’t expect him to single-handedly turn around this dumpster fire either.
RE: RE: RE: I just can’t wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
Producer : 10/26/2020 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15025378 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:


Quote:




Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?



And I don’t get why anyone would continue to make wins and losses an arbiter of any individual player on a football team, even the QB. Josh Allen has more career wins in which his team scores 17 or less points than Daniel Jones has in total. The Chiefs won their division two years in a row before Mahomes became the starter, yet people here would have you believe they were the Cleveland Browns before he came along. What some are asking of Jones hasn’t been done by any active QB on a team this poor this early into a player’s career. I see people on BBI applauding Joe Burrow for something Daniel Jones did 4 or 5 times last season. I would gladly draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but I wouldn’t expect him to single-handedly turn around this dumpster fire either.


Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I just can’t wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/26/2020 2:26 pm : link
In comment 15025381 Producer said:
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In comment 15025378 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


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In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:


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Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?


I know you started watching the Giants 5 weeks ago, but Daniel Jones did in fact have at least 4 games similar to or better than what Joe Burrow did yesterday. Doesn’t mean Jones will turn into Joe Montana, but there’s a segment on BBI that wants to pretend that never happened.
Don't argue  
BigBlueCane : 10/26/2020 2:31 pm : link
with the troll Shockey, that's what he excels at.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I just can’t wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
Producer : 10/26/2020 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15025394 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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In comment 15025381 Producer said:


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In comment 15025378 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:


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Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?



I know you started watching the Giants 5 weeks ago, but Daniel Jones did in fact have at least 4 games similar to or better than what Joe Burrow did yesterday. Doesn’t mean Jones will turn into Joe Montana, but there’s a segment on BBI that wants to pretend that never happened.


No i have been watching the Giants since 1974 and went to my first game at Shea Stadium vs the Saints. And perhaps, you'll be interested to know that Burrow is not only outperforming Daniel Jones in 2020, but he is also outpacing Jones of 2019 in every important metric. But please tell me how much better the Bengals are than the Giants.
i guess we will find out  
ryanmkeane : 10/26/2020 3:17 pm : link
how we matchup against them in December.

Cardinals went 5-10-1 last year in Murray and Kingsbury's first season together. Right now, Cardinals look good at the current time, I'd be willing to bet when the weather starts to turn and they have to go on the road that their helter skelter type offense tends to falter. Right now it's easy to rely on Murray's legs but he's been bailing them out on nearly every down. The Hopkins trade was a great move, I'll say that.
I can't help but wonder  
Black_Flag : 10/26/2020 3:24 pm : link
If these guys aren't just dying to say I-told-you-so about Eli being too washed up to play. But now have to hype up Jones.

Even Eli last year was making plays. Jones simply does not make plays unless it is that bootleg keeper and he runs for a big gain. How long is that going to last?

As far as evasive QBs? I mean when you watched Eli he probably took a sack or 2 too many. Does that really matter when you are throwing the ball 40 yards a clip at a time and up by 2-3 scores against playoff bound teams? Jones is not a play maker unless it that bootleg with him running down the field. A few good throws but not enough.
RE: Exactly Jim - other than Kyler, Russell Wilson is the only QB  
Black_Flag : 10/26/2020 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15025250 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
who has thrived despite poor OL play. Those guys are exceedingly rare. Dak is a mobile QB but the Cowboys success this year even when he was healthy was clearly impacted by the deteriorating of their OL.

And even Seattle, despite the success with poor OL play they've invested a lot - Duane Brown trade + signing, previously spent multiple high picks on guys like Okung, Ifedi, and Unger, and more recently Pocic and Lewis.

A huge part of Baltimore's success has been their OL. Same with KC.

So I don't begrudge the OL picks and I guess it's hard to begrudge DB picks also because we have seen first hand how easy it is to lose games when you have easily exploitable players defending good WRs.

Just wish they could have found a way to grab one of those explosive WRs since they were there for the taking in good value spots.


nope. Payton Manning, Andrew Luck have. Strange thing I do not recall Payton being particularly mobile either.
Kingsbury been there for 2 years  
Johnny5 : 10/26/2020 3:31 pm : link
Joe Judge for 1 year.

Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?

In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.



RE: Terps - I have 0 attachment to Jones or Barkley except asset value  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 3:36 pm : link
In comment 15025342 Eric on Li said:
Quote:

I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, [b]and throws a very accurate ball/b]. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.


I keep reading this accuracy attribute for Jones. Are you guys sure you aren't confusing a nice spiral for accuracy?

Right now he is 28th in the league with a 61.9% completion %. Last year, he finished 25th, also at 61.9%. And with such a low AYPA, you would think the % should be higher.

So what am I missing?
i'm not against it at this point  
Platos : 10/26/2020 3:52 pm : link
I just wouldn't want to lose judge. He seems like a special type who will handle NY well. The players like him and aren't giving up. we're losing close games with a bottom 5 roster.

for everything i've seen so far Jone's isn't the guy. can we win with him? sure, but too much needs to be right.

step one will be getting rid of DG. for all intents and purposes he did a decent job turning over the roster. it didn't translate to wins but theres more involved with that(mara, mara, mara, shurmur being the only coach who would agree to keep eli, mara).

he's made some good FA signings, and some bad. it is what it is. some of you act like the giants owe you flawlessness or something.

New GM, hopefully we keep Judge as some people have said young nfl execs wouldn't shy away from the opportunity to work with him.

my problem is copycat actions expecting the same thing.

if we get the first, or second pick. and we go lawrence who looks like a copy of mahomes or fields who looks like a copy of whoever. i don't like the idea of "this guy looks like this recently successful player"

wrap my head around suggestions to trade Jones right now  
Black_Flag : 10/26/2020 3:57 pm : link
In comment 15025331 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15025289 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


for whatever you can get, or cut him outright.

You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?

You should ignore the worst takes, responding even in insult only encourages more bad takes.

Jones can't be judged yet. He is in his second system in 2 years without a normal preseason or camp. That second year jump often because they know the system after an entire offseason in it after a season of playing it, they can play faster.

I admit to being very nervous about his inability to hold on to the ball but he does posses some plus traits.

It really is as close to apples to apples comparison as you can get for rebuilds and DG looks really bad comparatively. I will give him until the end of they year.

Make no mistake this is 100% DG's team, in DG's third season, and it looks awful without a lot to look forward to. Is there anyone on BBI who is like...Next year, we are going to be the shit because of X Y Z. Some people point to Judge but that is nothing more than a guess because he said some typical coach speak they liked. Remember how happy everyone was because Shurmur was an adult? That is now how our bar has fallen, we were happy that our new head coach was an adult with a terrible head coaching record. FFS. There is zero success as a HC for Judge to lean on to make that speculation about him as anything more than hope.


Can Brady or Herbert be judged by it? They had new systems and no pre season. That first TB game rough. One game He didn't look good in one game. Herbert looked good right of the gate.
RE: RE: Terps - I have 0 attachment to Jones or Barkley except asset value  
Producer : 10/26/2020 4:00 pm : link
In comment 15025475 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15025342 Eric on Li said:


Quote:



I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, [b]and throws a very accurate ball/b]. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.



I keep reading this accuracy attribute for Jones. Are you guys sure you aren't confusing a nice spiral for accuracy?

Right now he is 28th in the league with a 61.9% completion %. Last year, he finished 25th, also at 61.9%. And with such a low AYPA, you would think the % should be higher.

So what am I missing?


yes.. finally.. Jones is not an accurate passer. His passing is the biggest flaw to his game.
Producer...  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 4:09 pm : link
Hey, I'm all ears to hear what I'm missing about this pin-point accuracy that Jones possesses.

His biggest and best attribute to me is his ability to run. And I actually think he's a better thrower on the run than in the pocket. He's actually fairly effective rolling right and finding receivers on the right sideline.

He may be a bright guy because he went to Duke. But I don't see where that has translated to the football field. If anything for me, his football IQ is about average right now.
RE: Producer...  
Producer : 10/26/2020 4:28 pm : link
In comment 15025510 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Hey, I'm all ears to hear what I'm missing about this pin-point accuracy that Jones possesses.

His biggest and best attribute to me is his ability to run. And I actually think he's a better thrower on the run than in the pocket. He's actually fairly effective rolling right and finding receivers on the right sideline.

He may be a bright guy because he went to Duke. But I don't see where that has translated to the football field. If anything for me, his football IQ is about average right now.


Jones' best skill is long speed. Once he is out of the pocket and into the open field he is pretty fast and a load. His scrambling prior to getting into the open field is not good as he is easily flustered and runs poorly in traffic. He does not seem to throw well on the run, rather he has had success in second reaction plays where he runs to the sideline (running for his life it seems) and in the breakdown Slayton runs down the field and Jones lets it loose. No doubt these are good plays, but it's one of the few consistent things he does that works. His overall accuracy is not good and it is strange that he gets credit for being very accurate. I think it is because when he does hit a pass he looks good doing it.
bw - I may be misremembering but didn't you also think Ryan Finley  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 4:49 pm : link
was more talented than Daniel Jones? Obviously we are all fans who get things wrong (myself obviously included) so I don't intend that comment as a call out - just saying there's clearly been some very polarized interpretations of Jones talent since before the draft. I agree with 1 of the posters above that it appears highly convenient that a lot of the negative comments about Jones forget the numerous 300 yard and multi-TD games from last year.

If you want to continue debating the Jones' accuracy I think there's room for disagreement but there at least needs to some acknowledgement that there is a case both ways. Jones' career completion percentage is still higher than almost all of his contemporaries including Baker, Darnold, Allen, Haskins, and Lock (and Ryan Finley's 47%). It's also not too hard to find various methodologies that track tight window throws like PFF or like the one linked below to see reasons for optimism (beyond what we can see with our own eyes like the TD to Shepard and 3rd down to Engram on Thursday that should have been the game winners). And to make it even more simple, I'd be curious how you rate him as a pure thrower of the football relative to Eli. I personally think he's the better thrower and that's a pretty solid bar for any 2nd year QB to clear.

I do agree with you that his football IQ is about average right now and is the most immediate area of needed improvement. But I also think last year he showed upside on that (nobody throws 13 tds in the RZ with 0 ints easily or by accident - and that was trend in his performance even at Duke). He clearly hasn't been as comfortable throwing the football in this year's offense compared to last year's. It seems to be trending in the right direction but that's probably the #1 storyline that remains to be seen over the rest of the season. He and the coaches need to solve that if either of them are going to be the long term solution.
Who were the best quarterbacks throwing long passes in 2019? - ( New Window )
RE: Kingsbury been there for 2 years  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 5:16 pm : link
In comment 15025468 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
Joe Judge for 1 year.

Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?

In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.




I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.
RE: i guess we will find out  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15025455 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
how we matchup against them in December.

Cardinals went 5-10-1 last year in Murray and Kingsbury's first season together. Right now, Cardinals look good at the current time, I'd be willing to bet when the weather starts to turn and they have to go on the road that their helter skelter type offense tends to falter. Right now it's easy to rely on Murray's legs but he's been bailing them out on nearly every down. The Hopkins trade was a great move, I'll say that.


I remember what happened in the Meadowlands last year — and the weather was terrible.
RE: RE: Kingsbury been there for 2 years  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 5:20 pm : link
In comment 15025575 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15025468 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


Joe Judge for 1 year.

Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?

In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.






I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.


Jim whether they are flashes in the pan or not, it doesn't change the fact that it took them 1.5 years to get to where they are now. Let's see first how Judge/Jones finish this year and then where they go next year.

If this was last year and they didn't have Deandre Hopkins, do they win that game last night? Or does it likely end up as a good effort not dissimilar from many of our games thus far this year?
Eric...  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 5:22 pm : link
Indeed, I did like Finley. I thought he threw a better ball than Jones. So maybe that was the "more talented" part. But I don't recall the specifics. I want to say I was taking the angle that Jones shouldn't be so much higher than Jones because of Finley's production (also in the ACC) and his arm talent.

Completion % is a more traditional stat. And I do like AYPA as well because it consolidates a few key variables. But I do like to see other non-traditional measurements. So I am going to check out your link.

Jones vs Eli as throwers? I think Eli had more arm talent in terms of zip and making throws outside of hash marks. Eli was a very solid deep thrower, but Jones looks good there, too. Probably a wash. Eli wasn't an accurate passer throughout his career, so Jones is probably his equal there and may have a chance to be better in the long run...

Jones is a much, much athlete than Eli. Not even close. And there is that interesting dimension to his game being able to throw on the run. That was not in Eli's quiver.

RE: RE: Kingsbury been there for 2 years  
Johnny5 : 10/26/2020 5:23 pm : link
In comment 15025575 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15025468 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


Joe Judge for 1 year.

Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?

In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.






I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.

Jim yeah for sure. Beating Seattle is a great win. I loved Murray but knew we weren't getting him. That said, I feel like with better blocking and more time in this system, and even just one more WR Jones will do well. I think people are giving up on him too early. I mean second coach and system already in his second year, behind an OL that is really failing him, with his greatest threat on offense out for the year. I feel like he deserves more patience.
RE: bw - I may be misremembering but didn't you also think Ryan Finley  
Producer : 10/26/2020 5:32 pm : link
In comment 15025552 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
was more talented than Daniel Jones? Obviously we are all fans who get things wrong (myself obviously included) so I don't intend that comment as a call out - just saying there's clearly been some very polarized interpretations of Jones talent since before the draft. I agree with 1 of the posters above that it appears highly convenient that a lot of the negative comments about Jones forget the numerous 300 yard and multi-TD games from last year.

If you want to continue debating the Jones' accuracy I think there's room for disagreement but there at least needs to some acknowledgement that there is a case both ways. Jones' career completion percentage is still higher than almost all of his contemporaries including Baker, Darnold, Allen, Haskins, and Lock (and Ryan Finley's 47%). It's also not too hard to find various methodologies that track tight window throws like PFF or like the one linked below to see reasons for optimism (beyond what we can see with our own eyes like the TD to Shepard and 3rd down to Engram on Thursday that should have been the game winners). And to make it even more simple, I'd be curious how you rate him as a pure thrower of the football relative to Eli. I personally think he's the better thrower and that's a pretty solid bar for any 2nd year QB to clear.

I do agree with you that his football IQ is about average right now and is the most immediate area of needed improvement. But I also think last year he showed upside on that (nobody throws 13 tds in the RZ with 0 ints easily or by accident - and that was trend in his performance even at Duke). He clearly hasn't been as comfortable throwing the football in this year's offense compared to last year's. It seems to be trending in the right direction but that's probably the #1 storyline that remains to be seen over the rest of the season. He and the coaches need to solve that if either of them are going to be the long term solution. Who were the best quarterbacks throwing long passes in 2019? - ( New Window )


jones is not accurate. you are cherry picking comparables. 61% is poor in today's nfl. I notice you didn;t compare him to Kyler, Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, nor Trubisky or Mariota. Kyler is percieved as an inaccurate passer and he's slinging at 65%.
RE: Eric...  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 5:37 pm : link
In comment 15025584 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Indeed, I did like Finley. I thought he threw a better ball than Jones. So maybe that was the "more talented" part. But I don't recall the specifics. I want to say I was taking the angle that Jones shouldn't be so much higher than Jones because of Finley's production (also in the ACC) and his arm talent.

Completion % is a more traditional stat. And I do like AYPA as well because it consolidates a few key variables. But I do like to see other non-traditional measurements. So I am going to check out your link.

Jones vs Eli as throwers? I think Eli had more arm talent in terms of zip and making throws outside of hash marks. Eli was a very solid deep thrower, but Jones looks good there, too. Probably a wash. Eli wasn't an accurate passer throughout his career, so Jones is probably his equal there and may have a chance to be better in the long run...

Jones is a much, much athlete than Eli. Not even close. And there is that interesting dimension to his game being able to throw on the run. That was not in Eli's quiver.


I'd agree with just about all of this - to me Jones (even as someone who liked him as a prospect) he has looked more accurate than I expected from just about day 1. Remember his preseason last year? I know preseason is meaningless but I don't think Eli could have ever performed that well in terms of clean, accurate completions even in preseason. We knew he was a tangibly better athlete than Eli but he's shown a little more of that school yard escapability than I expected also. And he seems to be just as tough and just as hard of a worker.

So while it all hasn't come together yet statistically I see a lot to like despite obviously difficult circumstances. We do need to start seeing him perform when games are on the line - but that's why the Philly game in particular was encouraging. He made the plays when the game was on the line (it was others who didn't). Once upon a time Eli needed Manningham and Plax to hang on to nicely lofted passes too.
RE: RE: bw - I may be misremembering but didn't you also think Ryan Finley  
Eric on Li : 10/26/2020 5:51 pm : link
In comment 15025595 Producer said:
Quote:


jones is not accurate. you are cherry picking comparables. 61% is poor in today's nfl. I notice you didn;t compare him to Kyler, Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, nor Trubisky or Mariota. Kyler is percieved as an inaccurate passer and he's slinging at 65%.


I didn't compare him to this year's rookies because they've only played a few games. Similar to Jones' performance last year I love what I've seen from Herbert though, to the point where I'd actually probably take him over Burrow.

Kyler and Lamar have started a similar # of games and both been better by completion % though they are both in very different offenses and situations. Lamar Jackson had the fewest attempts of any starter in the league last year and Kyler probably had close to the most. And guess what? Their career Y/A (Kyler 7.0, Lamar 7.5) aren't so far off Jones (6.4).

Jones and Kyler are probably the best apples to apples comparison and they actually had extremely similar statistical seasons throwing the football last year:

Jones (12 starts) - 61.9% - 3,027 yards - 24 tds - 12 ints - 6.6 y/a
Kyler (16 starts) - 64.4% - 3,722 yards - 20 tds - 12 ints - 6.9 y/a

In year 2, one of them got Deandre Hopkins and the other is in a new system and lost Saquon Barkley. Gee I wonder which one is having the better statistical season...
Let me say on this Murray...  
bw in dc : 10/26/2020 5:58 pm : link
He's on pace to rush for 1K yards this year. He's like tackling water.

And last year he rushed for 550 yards, 7 TDs, and at almost 6 ypc.

Jones can move, but he's not nearly the threat on the ground as Murray, which helps differentiate him from other QBs...
RE: Exactly Jim - other than Kyler, Russell Wilson is the only QB  
NINEster : 10/26/2020 6:42 pm : link
In comment 15025250 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
who has thrived despite poor OL play. Those guys are exceedingly rare. Dak is a mobile QB but the Cowboys success this year even when he was healthy was clearly impacted by the deteriorating of their OL.

And even Seattle, despite the success with poor OL play they've invested a lot - Duane Brown trade + signing, previously spent multiple high picks on guys like Okung, Ifedi, and Unger, and more recently Pocic and Lewis.

A huge part of Baltimore's success has been their OL. Same with KC.

So I don't begrudge the OL picks and I guess it's hard to begrudge DB picks also because we have seen first hand how easy it is to lose games when you have easily exploitable players defending good WRs.

Just wish they could have found a way to grab one of those explosive WRs since they were there for the taking in good value spots.


Wilson and Kyler do ok with substandard OLs because they are backyard QBs, with exceptional pocket presence to extend the play and make plays in unconventional ways.

If Wilson attempted to be a straight drop back QB that only occasionally used his mobility (like your typical QB), he wouldn't be anywhere where he's at.

Even when he doesn't flee the pocket, he still doesn't typically stay in drop back mode. He likes to drop back and climb the pocket right away when he's not throwing it deep.
Stats?  
trueblueinpw : 10/26/2020 6:55 pm : link
The only stat that matters to me in football is wins. Jones needs to start stringing together some wins. It’s just that simple. Yes, his receivers are meh, yes the line isn’t great (who’s is these days btw?) and yes Garrett is a new O-co and there’s a thousand other reasons for Jones to suck. He needs to start to win. I could give a fuck about how accurate or inaccurate or his grip strength or his MPH. Win. The Giants need to start to win. This is the worst team in the NFL. Start to turn it around or expect to be replaced.

Last night we watched the Cards beat the Hawks and everyone thought the same thing: how come the Cards can turn it around and we can not? An entertaining football game with two teams built to win in todays NFL. Two teams that look nothing like the steaming pile of shit we all watch every Sunday around here. Getty’s had more than enough time to demonstrate progress and he has not. His fate should already be sealed. Jones needs to start to win. He needs to be a playmaker and not just the occasional run because he doesn’t have the athleticism to avoid hits. Win some fucking games Jones.
RE: This feels a lot like racoons being attracted to shiny objects.  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/26/2020 7:10 pm : link
In comment 15024832 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
While I'm not going to argue the failings of the Giants, BBI in general LOVES the next big thing, until it isn't.

The past 15 years are littered with the next big thing that didn't come to pass.

I guess we'll see.

They have a winning record right now and will still have one when the calendar turns to November, and probably will still be playing meaningful games in December. We have not had that under Gettleman to date. And they're roster was pretty abysmal even before they blew a top-10 pick on a QB bust. And they play in the toughest division in the NFL, while the Giants play in the weakest.

It's just not even close - this isn't about shiny objects, it's about the reality that a rebuild doesn't have to take as long as it's taking Gettleman. He is making too many mistakes and it's causing repeated setbacks in the process.
RE: Let me say on this Murray...  
Greg from LI : 10/26/2020 7:16 pm : link
In comment 15025614 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He's on pace to rush for 1K yards this year. He's like tackling water.

And last year he rushed for 550 yards, 7 TDs, and at almost 6 ypc.

Jones can move, but he's not nearly the threat on the ground as Murray, which helps differentiate him from other QBs...


People are wowed by Jones' long speed, and it is impressive, but I think too many people overlook the fact that he's a long strider who takes a few strides to get up to speed. He's much more fast than quick and doesn't have much elusiveness.
RE: I'm really not even trying to defend the Giants here....  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/26/2020 7:33 pm : link
In comment 15024879 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that wasn't my point.

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon of whoever is winning and say "this is the right way to do things". Because hey, who can argue, they're winning.

Coming off the 5-10 year last year, I'd love to see where all of the "Watch out for the Cardinals, the Cardinals are doing things the right way" posters were. Same thing with Cleveland with Dorsey and Baker Mayfield.... Look out for Cleveland. Oh no, we gifted the Jets Sam Darnold! Josh Freeman is better than Eli Manning (2009). Rex and the Jets with Sanchez are the way to do it! The list goes on and on.

As mentioned, the Cardinals have the longest championship drought in the modern era. The Giants have been to and won a Superbowl every decade for the past 40 years.

So we'll see.

It may not be your intent to defend the Giants, but it does come across that way.

Besides, is the point that the way that the Cardinals handled their rebuild is the right way, or just that it's possible to do so quicker than DG has done here? Is it that the Cardinals are doing it the right way, as if there's only one right way? Or is it that the Giants are very clearly doing it the wrong way because it doesn't have to take this long and be this dismal?

While I'm sure some are looking to celebrate the Cardinals' turnaround, my view on it isn't that we should emulate the Cards necessarily, but we have got to stop doing whatever it is that we're doing that's resulting in this taking as long as it is. The league is built for parity; it's built for teams to rebound back to the middle fairly quickly. It takes a lot of work to stay good for an extended period of time, and it takes just as much incompetence to stay bad for an extended period of time.
Jones has 2.6 seconds to throw, 2nd worst in NFL  
SGMen : 10/26/2020 7:38 pm : link
He is playing behind one of the three worst OL's in the NFL. He has one decent receiver in Slayton; an average guy in Shepard IF healthy; and not much else.

Give Jones "average" pass protection and run blocking and you will see good numbers and less turnovers.
RE: Jones has 2.6 seconds to throw, 2nd worst in NFL  
Producer : 10/26/2020 7:40 pm : link
In comment 15025708 SGMen said:
Quote:
He is playing behind one of the three worst OL's in the NFL. He has one decent receiver in Slayton; an average guy in Shepard IF healthy; and not much else.

Give Jones "average" pass protection and run blocking and you will see good numbers and less turnovers.


oh well.. who is the worst OL? what are the 5 worst and how different are they than the giants?

He has to do better. If he can't we should move on in spite of the excuses.
RE: RE: RE: Kingsbury been there for 2 years  
Jim from Katonah : 10/26/2020 8:50 pm : link
In comment 15025581 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15025575 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


In comment 15025468 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


Joe Judge for 1 year.

Kingsbury was 5-10-1 last year. Shouldn't we at the very least wait for the season to finish before we anoint the Cardinals as some premier program over the Giants?

In my mind we have been in every game except for one. We only look to be a couple of pieces away from being a very competitive team (2 of CB, WR, Edge). I mean geezus just add one scary edge rusher and we win at least 1/2 more games and we are sitting in first place.






I hear you on Kingsbury, but beating undefeated Seattle to get to 5-2 — with a young superstar QB — will tend to get some attention. Maybe they (and Murray) are flashes in the pan, but when I see the composure that kid plays with coupled with his electric talent, I don’t think so.



Jim whether they are flashes in the pan or not, it doesn't change the fact that it took them 1.5 years to get to where they are now. Let's see first how Judge/Jones finish this year and then where they go next year.

If this was last year and they didn't have Deandre Hopkins, do they win that game last night? Or does it likely end up as a good effort not dissimilar from many of our games thus far this year?


That’s entirely reasonable. I’d love to see Jones (and the OL) develop into something solid by the end of the year. Something that gives us a shot to compete with the big boys. But ... I can’t shake this feeling that we are behind the curve of the evolution of the position. I feel like we are trying to groom a post- up center when the smarter teams are focusing on shooting threes. We keep doubling down on “building the line” to protect our QB at the expense of other neglected positions, year after year, following an ancient football code that is not necessarily the only way to skin a cat. Hope it works ... but simultaneously looking at Tua next week too.
Britt in VA +1  
CJ in AZ : 10/26/2020 11:23 pm : link
Thanks for being the voice of reasonable perspective in the face of all the "blacker than black" doom-speakers. That is quite an avalanche of negativity that greeted you: sorry to see that.

Wow, it is hard to read all this long chain of hope-sucking negativity.

Jones definitely would have won at least 1 or 2 more games with the most average defense. Or offense. Even special teams have let the team down at times.

It is not all on him. Some day we may come to love his toughness, courage, accuracy, competitive spirit, etc. Once the turnovers end of course. I believe that day may come: we need to wait and see. Please.
When I hear the term "rebuild" used in reference to the Giants I laugh  
Fishmanjim57 : 10/28/2020 10:38 am : link
Rebuild from what? This team has been a disaster for a decade. Right now they are not even mediocre they're just plain bad.
As long as good old Eli was on the team the organisation tried to say they always had a chance, but they wasted years from his career by supplying him with virtually no offensive line (which they still don't have), and the once proud defense became a joke (thank goodness it looks like it's getting better but there still isn't a Strahan or Umenyiora amongst the current crew).
Not to mention that during most of Manning's latter career with the Giants they had receivers who couldn't catch or hold on to the ball.
So the Giants are rebuilding from what, mediocrity?
They're not there yet. They're just putrid.
There are tons of fans who want the Giants to keep losing so they could draft a high pick, but do we want Gettleman making that choice again?
I'd rather have "sure stars" than "could be's" which is what Gettleman chooses.
FIRE HIM NOW! He's nearly as bad as Reese!
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