2018: Hired Steve Wilks, drafted Josh Rosen.
(Had one of the worst rosters in the NFL)
2019: Fired Wilks, hired Kliff. Moved on from Rosen, drafted Kyler.
2020: 5-2 and in playoff contention.
The Cardinals blew a top 10 pick, have had two coaches in three years and also have a second year QB and are miles ahead of the Giants.
The Cardinals are a refutation of all that, and don't give me any nonsense about what a better position they were in than the Giants. Baloney. The 2018 Cardinals were a significantly worse team than the 2018 Giants, and there are virtually no holdovers from the last good Bruce Arians team in 2015 and the team that beat the Seahawks last night. They have one starter remaining on offense (Larry Fitz on his last NFL legs) and one on defense (a declining Patrick Peterson).
This was my exact point.
The fact he thinks he's hot shit should be a warning sign.
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Except that historically teams had been doing that for decades.
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Again nobody ever said let’s be the Cardinals. The point is it doesn’t take this long to rebuild. And not even talking about rebuilding to the Cardinals level, the Giants aren’t even at mediocre yet.
I think that's what we are going to get. The right move is bring in the coach first, then the GM. Get me a guy that has a vision for his football team and give him a GM that he can work with that will get him players he wants to fit that vision. The other way around is antiquated and makes the GM the true power which makes no sense, especially when you don't have a Steelers/Ravens type FO.
IMO Judge seems to be have given more power of the bat then I can remember and I think ownership is fully bought into the guy. DG queitly retires and Judge brings in his guy.
I was talking to my Cowboys buddy yesterday and he was depressed and I welcomed him to the suck. However, it felt really disengious because Dallas seems to be a sinking ship and it feels like a new day as a Giants fan with Judge in town. People will cry about year 1 of the forever ongoing rebuild, but thats what it is. This time I actually have lots of faith because they got the HC right and probably already have the QB in place.
The fact that we can't get it done, even in this age of parity, is an indictment of the front office.
THAT SAID... Those teams were all in year 2 or 3 of consistency, and Joe Judge deserves another shot next year to do the same. Gettleman I don't care about.
You misunderstand me, it's the sheer idiocy of thinking they could win with Eli and this roster. That was the mistake. Then in ELi's last year, drafting Jones instead of someone like Josh Allen who could actually help Eli win. They set him up to fail and the whole franchise fell too.
Gettleman is out of rope.
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In comment 15024839 Britt in VA said:
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It's easy to get excited about the Cardinals right now. They are off to a hot start and playing well.
We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year, and next.
My statement wasn't so much about the Giants as it was about people jumping onto the bandwagon of the hot hand as the "right" way to do things.
They nailed the most important position on the field and i'm 99% sure with Murray we are atleast .500 this year. People keep saying a better QB wouldn't do much better here and I really don't agree.
If the Giants tailored the offense to him then i agree, but if you put him in this offense i dont think he would be as dangerous. It also helps whenever you are in trouble you have Hopkins.
Yiu can have the greatest QB without tslent and without thr right system they are not going to succeed, no great qb goes and does it by himself, every single one has at least a number 1 guy.
What #1 guy did Eli have?
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It didn't work, but it wasn't some unheard of proposition.
You misunderstand me, it's the sheer idiocy of thinking they could win with Eli and this roster. That was the mistake. Then in ELi's last year, drafting Jones instead of someone like Josh Allen who could actually help Eli win. They set him up to fail and the whole franchise fell too.
What I'm trying to say is that if there IS a plan, the plan is some half hearted piece of shit plan. And we are all seeing the result.
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In comment 15024845 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15024839 Britt in VA said:
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It's easy to get excited about the Cardinals right now. They are off to a hot start and playing well.
We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year, and next.
My statement wasn't so much about the Giants as it was about people jumping onto the bandwagon of the hot hand as the "right" way to do things.
They nailed the most important position on the field and i'm 99% sure with Murray we are atleast .500 this year. People keep saying a better QB wouldn't do much better here and I really don't agree.
If the Giants tailored the offense to him then i agree, but if you put him in this offense i dont think he would be as dangerous. It also helps whenever you are in trouble you have Hopkins.
Yiu can have the greatest QB without tslent and without thr right system they are not going to succeed, no great qb goes and does it by himself, every single one has at least a number 1 guy.
What #1 guy did Eli have?
umm Plaxico, he also had a veteran possession receiver in Toomer, Then he had Nicks whonwas a number 1 when healthy, Cruz who was an elite slot guy
It was worse than ours. It made ours look like the ‘93 Cowboys. Yet, magically, just a few years later, the Cards are a competitive team in the best division in football.
Meanwhile, at Jints Central another year of excuses...
This is a point that seems lost on many. I remember reading in many places, that the 2018 Cardinals line was historically bad. Somehow, they are now good enough to support the 9th ranked offense in the NFL while the Giants rock the 31st ranked offense.
You can blow top 10 picks (Rosen, S. Thomas). You can draft a DT with 0 sacks #7 overall (Brown). You can trade 2 young core players (Tunsil/Fitz). You can give a crappy RB who isn't even as good as his backup a huge contract (Drake). You can sign a mediocre FA QB (Bridgewater). You can trade for a QB who has been very up and down (Garapolo). You can sign 2 different expensive RBs who don't even start (49ers). You can draft a RT in the top 10 (McGlinchey) and a G in the first round (Tomlinson). you can sign aging FAs when it seems like your team has no business doing so off losing seasons (Sherman, Hopkins).
There is more than one way to skin a cat building a roster and you can become a competitive team very quick - IF - you hire the right head coach.
That's the #1 thing we need to hope to get out of this season. I've seen enough from Jones that if Judge is the right head coach he will also be able to mold Jones into the right QB. Already this year he's had this team in position to win games if Jones could have done what Kyler has done to deliver with the game on the line. Perhaps if he had Deandre Hopkins instead of Golden Tate or Evan Engram that would have happened a few more times. It definitely would have happened on Thursday. But at the end of the day you are what your record is - and if you notice it did take a 2nd or even 3rd year for some of the coaches of those organizations we now envy. Rhule is the only guy who had success right away though perhaps they are coming back down to earth a little bit now.
Nobkdy is defending the Giants, i think most are saying the Giants have failed
Of course nobody knows the plan for sure, but when Gettleman's first charge as GM was to build a team to win one last superbowl with Eli Manning.
Rebuilding teams don't make middle of the road left tackles the highest paid at their position. They don't take running backs #2 overall. John Mara looked at the roster and thought they were a couple pieces away from a championship, which is laughable.
Rebuilding teams trade veterans who are not a part of the long term plan. Most importantly, they start with a new franchise quarterback. Those things didn't happen till the end of the 2018 season.
In my opinion, the Giants totally miscalculated what they could accomplish with a 38 year old Eli Manning, and it created a dominoe affect delaying the rebuild.
Bingo. It is what it is. Eli won 2 championships with the Giants. They tried to build around him while he was still playing. I look at the rebuild as being in year two. I always looked at it in a three year timeline. Year 1 they got their QB. Year 2 they hopefully solidified their OL for the future. (No, that does not mean their OL is fixed, but between Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux, they hopefully have a solid OL to go with Hernandez, Gates, etc. by next year. Year 3 offseason, they need to get some weapons for Jones.
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go look at that Cardinals OL in 2018. I remember Sy even commenting on the disaster it was.
It was worse than ours. It made ours look like the ‘93 Cowboys. Yet, magically, just a few years later, the Cards are a competitive team in the best division in football.
Meanwhile, at Jints Central another year of excuses...
This is a point that seems lost on many. I remember reading in many places, that the 2018 Cardinals line was historically bad. Somehow, they are now good enough to support the 9th ranked offense in the NFL while the Giants rock the 31st ranked offense.
indeed. some here are now saying the 2018 Cards were pretty good. I watched several of their games. They were awful. Their line was worse than ours. The revisionism here is delicious.
The Cardinals' situation isn't easily boiled down to just Murray. They already had some good players in place to start with, they drafted WRs to compliment the new QB and, while they moved on from Rosen quickly to get Murray, they were able to deal him the next year.
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was trying to win with Eli. That set them back, what 2 years? The whole we can rebuild at the same time? That was utter horseshit and a terrible plan. Drafting Jones WHILE you have ELi? Talk about zero direction or operating with Mara handcuffing you. They are a lost franchise right now.
Except that historically teams had been doing that for decades.
Your historical analysis is quite immaterial. Now they are a contender. They just beat the best team in the NFC. Like it or not they are arriving, and we are wallowing.
Where did they go?
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.
It's all about hiring the right HC and the rest is noise. It's hard to turn things around with the wrong QB but it's impossible with the wrong HC.
Gettleman's biggest failure by a long shot was hiring Shurmur. We need to hope his greatest success was Judge.
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There are enough fans defending Gentleman and, or the Giants rebuild to be counted.
Where did they go?
Or who were they in the first place? There is a tendency to get labeled as a hater or a defender when you're actually not doing either.
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this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.
So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.
Why are we giving multiple guys (GMs/coaches/players) multiple years?
Which one is it?
Just for the record. I don't agree with first premise(that the league is built for teams to be year-to-year).
The Cardinals' situation isn't easily boiled down to just Murray. They already had some good players in place to start with, they drafted WRs to compliment the new QB and, while they moved on from Rosen quickly to get Murray, they were able to deal him the next year.
People do not seem to understand this, the system in AZ is tailored to Murray..
The system to KC is tailored to Mahomes..
The system in Bal is tailored to Jackson..
You habe to build a system and have the pieces around the QB for the QB to succeed
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this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.
We coulda' been somebody. We coulda' been a contender.
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In comment 15024959 crick n NC said:
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There are enough fans defending Gentleman and, or the Giants rebuild to be counted.
Where did they go?
Or who were they in the first place? There is a tendency to get labeled as a hater or a defender when you're actually not doing either.
I don't know, but I think he's on 3rd base.
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In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:
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this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.
So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.
No I would not have drafted DJ is this is what I thought he was. I would have waited a year and gotten Tua or Herbert.
The fact he thinks he's hot shit should be a warning sign.
He's currently number 11 in passing yards. He has more yards and a higher completion % than Aaron Rodgers. With more attempts as well.
The Giant have spent a grand total of 1 week in the last 3 years at .500. A Dave Gettleman general managed team has not had a winning record at any moment.
We can debate why some teams have turned the corner, whether they had better rosters, whether they will sustain it, etc. The constant for the Giants has been losing with Tommy Wiseau running the team.
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In comment 15024976 Producer said:
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In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:
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this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.
So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.
No I would not have drafted DJ is this is what I thought he was. I would have waited a year and gotten Tua or Herbert.
What do you do if the teams with the top two picks draft Tua and Herbert, and you aren't one of the teams with one of the top two picks?
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In comment 15024985 KDavies said:
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In comment 15024976 Producer said:
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In comment 15024920 Britt in VA said:
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this place is quickly becoming an echo chamber.
The same people, the same things, posted over and over.
And the Giants have earned that. But the echo chamber of negativity isn't exactly solving anything, either.
Let's be the Browns. Oooh, let's be the Cardinals...
Have a vision. Stick to it. Consistency. Unfortunately it appears that Dave Gettleman hasn't been able to realize his vision of "run the ball (fail), rush the passer (fail), and protect the QB (fail)." Doesn't mean that vision doesn't work, he is just failing to put the pieces in place to realize it.
Having the wrong vision and failing to admit mistakes is probably worse than having no vision at all. DG had a vision about Daniel Jones, but we could have had Justin Herbert.
So, based on what we saw from Daniel Jones last year, you would have drafted Justin Herbert this year? Then you suck again because you have so many other positions you haven't addressed, and draft QB again. Just draft a QB every year.
No I would not have drafted DJ is this is what I thought he was. I would have waited a year and gotten Tua or Herbert.
What do you do if the teams with the top two picks draft Tua and Herbert, and you aren't one of the teams with one of the top two picks?
Then wait for a star QB rather than spend a #6 on a QB with such serious flaws and few, if any, great qualities. We reached for Jones and thus lost the opportunity to draft a better QB.
All I want to see what Jones can do with a league average OL, and some healthy league average offensive weapons. To say he has few, if any, great qualities is just mind-boggling. The guy just had an 80 yard run less than a week ago, running faster than any QB since '18. In his rookie year, he threw 2 4 TD games and a 5 TD game, all with no interceptions.
Cardinals were smart enought to see they made a mistake with Rosen and bailed on it rather than hang around, but I clearly remember in Rosen's season there the Cards had the worst OL in the league, offering him no protection.
Lockett put about 5 balls in his back pocket yesterday more difficult than the one Engram dropped. Hopkins TD catch was insane. A few weeks ago herbert threw a ball up to Mike Williams that was basically a hailmary to get in position to tie a game. Same with Wilson and DK. We lost in Dallas because Gallup went up and brought down 2 prayers. Hell, even against Pitt, Claypool made an impossible catch on a big 3rd down.
I know they are trying to rebuild a defense and the secondary is a huge need, but if I was going to 2nd guess any draft picks the past couple years it was the ones where they passed on Deebo, AJB, Metcalf, Claypool, Higgins, etc. All fit exactly they type of player this offense is desperately lacking and they were sitting there for the taking.
It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.
Made me think of an interesting possibility. Teams with VERY mobile/quick QB's can save money and draft capital on the OLINE and put their money into WR's, D-Line, etc. Makes the QB position (when you have a jitterbug) a very effective cost saving position. That said, you need a special RB for just an ok line.
Klingsbury comes in with his specific offensive style and gets the perfect QB for it.
You make it sound like those two things were common decisions any front office would make. I was frankly stunned that a first-time NFL head coach would be given the leeway to jettison the previous year's high first round QB and replace him with a polarizing, unconventional QB. Not many teams would allow that.
Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.
This year is probably comparable to last year, both better than 2019 - although everyone from the '19 class seems intent on hitting their ceiling projection.
I'd love to see Chase, Waddle, Bateman, or Devonta Smith in blue next year. Bateman especially seems like the exact type of WR needed. As do Robinson and Golladay in FA.
Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.
Lol ok. Does how it’s worded really matter?