2018: Hired Steve Wilks, drafted Josh Rosen.
(Had one of the worst rosters in the NFL)
2019: Fired Wilks, hired Kliff. Moved on from Rosen, drafted Kyler.
2020: 5-2 and in playoff contention.
The Cardinals blew a top 10 pick, have had two coaches in three years and also have a second year QB and are miles ahead of the Giants.
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already know what Jones is or isnt going to be, nobody knows, could he be a bust? absolutely but he could also still be a franchise qb...Nobody knows for sure
All I want to see what Jones can do with a league average OL, and some healthy league average offensive weapons. To say he has few, if any, great qualities is just mind-boggling. The guy just had an 80 yard run less than a week ago, running faster than any QB since '18. In his rookie year, he threw 2 4 TD games and a 5 TD game, all with no interceptions.
They already have that. Jones can't throw well enough to get respect from any defenses. you all act like they just rush their front four and get pressure on jones. They can pretty much pin their ears back and Jones will not do anything about it.
Why is that of issue?
I look at Robby Anderson in Carolina, and just get a deep chuckle the Giants are paying Golden Tate more money in 20 & 21 than Anderson.
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is supposed to be a better WR than last year. I can see them passing on WR in the first, but I would like one in the 2nd or 3rd.
This year is probably comparable to last year, both better than 2019 - although everyone from the '19 class seems intent on hitting their ceiling projection.
I'd love to see Chase, Waddle, Bateman, or Devonta Smith in blue next year. Bateman especially seems like the exact type of WR needed. As do Robinson and Golladay in FA.
I have mixed feelings on taking Chase that high. Incredible talent, but will have gone about a year and a half without playing. Plus I think talented WR can be had higher in the draft. Might rather a Surtain, Parsons, or Rousseau. I'm hoping one of the others you listed or Moore falls to the 2nd, or get a Marshall, Williams, or Terry.
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In comment 15025050 KDavies said:
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is supposed to be a better WR than last year. I can see them passing on WR in the first, but I would like one in the 2nd or 3rd.
This year is probably comparable to last year, both better than 2019 - although everyone from the '19 class seems intent on hitting their ceiling projection.
I'd love to see Chase, Waddle, Bateman, or Devonta Smith in blue next year. Bateman especially seems like the exact type of WR needed. As do Robinson and Golladay in FA.
I have mixed feelings on taking Chase that high. Incredible talent, but will have gone about a year and a half without playing. Plus I think talented WR can be had higher in the draft. Might rather a Surtain, Parsons, or Rousseau. I'm hoping one of the others you listed or Moore falls to the 2nd, or get a Marshall, Williams, or Terry.
Should say "could be had later in the draft"
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In comment 15025021 nygiants16 said:
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already know what Jones is or isnt going to be, nobody knows, could he be a bust? absolutely but he could also still be a franchise qb...Nobody knows for sure
All I want to see what Jones can do with a league average OL, and some healthy league average offensive weapons. To say he has few, if any, great qualities is just mind-boggling. The guy just had an 80 yard run less than a week ago, running faster than any QB since '18. In his rookie year, he threw 2 4 TD games and a 5 TD game, all with no interceptions.
They already have that. Jones can't throw well enough to get respect from any defenses. you all act like they just rush their front four and get pressure on jones. They can pretty much pin their ears back and Jones will not do anything about it.
yes. Jones gets credit on here for being some kind of passing savant. Sure.. if you throw out all the passes he throws at feet and above heads. Making an occasional nice throw, doesn't mean he has the goods as a passer. He has fair arm talent and his accuracy is wildly overstated.
Cardinals were smart enought to see they made a mistake with Rosen and bailed on it rather than hang around, but I clearly remember in Rosen's season there the Cards had the worst OL in the league, offering him no protection.
I mentioned this earlier about the Cards OL in 2018. I really liked Rosen and made it a point to watch some Cards game. Now Rosen isn't Kyle Murray mobile, but he isn't the statue that Peyton was either. Yet, he was under relentless pressure and duress when he played because their OL was as ineffective as a pile of leaves. How Rosen made it through that season without something broken, torn, ripped, dislocated was an achievement in and of itself...
Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.
True, but I watched the Giants and Cards play last season and Murray did nothing and the Cards still won because they ran the ball down the Giants throats. Murray is playing spectacularly right now, but they’ve shown the ability to win some games the past season and a half without it being “The Kyler Murray show”.
They lost Chandler Jones and still have at least two defensive players superior to anyone the Giants have.
Practice squad at Tampa Bay.
You can't prove anything, but I do wonder if things would have turned out differently for him if he'd landed with a perennially well-run organisation like Pittsburgh or Baltimore. I've seen analysts damn him, but few QBs arrive in the league without warts. Working with the right organisation, not being thrown straight in so quickly. As it was, he was named starting QB in week 4, behind a terrible OL.
It was worse than ours. It made ours look like the ‘93 Cowboys. Yet, magically, just a few years later, the Cards are a competitive team in the best division in football.
Meanwhile, at Jints Central another year of excuses...
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.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.
It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.
Made me think of an interesting possibility. Teams with VERY mobile/quick QB's can save money and draft capital on the OLINE and put their money into WR's, D-Line, etc. Makes the QB position (when you have a jitterbug) a very effective cost saving position. That said, you need a special RB for just an ok line.
Exactly. In the traditional paradigm you build a line, get a bell cow back, let your pocket passer learn to read defenses and hope he doesn’t get killed. In the new paradigm, you get a guy with the fast twitch quickness to evade the first guy and slide to avoid hits, make the defense waste a spy on him, and fill in the blanks with pass catching RBs, WRs and TEs. The biggest flaw in this logic of course is ... maybe Kylers are just as rare as Peytons.
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but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.
Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.
Lol ok. Does how it’s worded really matter?
Dg is working within the Giants way. It's the Giants rebuild. Meaning he's not making all the decisions.
And Murray is playing Qb for the Cards. We'd have more than 1 win right now if he was playing for NYG.
with the crap OL and defense they put out on the field with him...
Look at the numbers the corpses of Brady, Brees, and Big Ben are putting up this year with good supporting casts...
The Cards certainly have made some good moves but as Britt mentioned didn't have as much ground to make up...and let's see how the season plays out for them...
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In comment 15024869 Jim from Katonah said:
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.... I have a nagging feeling that we are slowly seeing a transition towards uber-mobile and evasive QBs in the NFL. DJ is incredibly fast, but I’m talking about guys with the quickness and burst to toy with pass rushers, like we saw with Wilson and Murray last night, who turned the game into something resembling flag football. Yes, there are numerous examples — like Brady — of pocket passers still succeeding, but like traditional post-up centers in basketball or speed merchant base stealers in baseball, I feel like we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift — Tua is next on deck. And maybe Justin Fields thereafter.
It’s possible that I’m falsely seeing a “trend” when it’s really a couple of special guys out there. But watching Murray jitterbugging around behind a mediocre OL, you can really see how much less infrastructure he requires to win.
Made me think of an interesting possibility. Teams with VERY mobile/quick QB's can save money and draft capital on the OLINE and put their money into WR's, D-Line, etc. Makes the QB position (when you have a jitterbug) a very effective cost saving position. That said, you need a special RB for just an ok line.
Exactly. In the traditional paradigm you build a line, get a bell cow back, let your pocket passer learn to read defenses and hope he doesn’t get killed. In the new paradigm, you get a guy with the fast twitch quickness to evade the first guy and slide to avoid hits, make the defense waste a spy on him, and fill in the blanks with pass catching RBs, WRs and TEs. The biggest flaw in this logic of course is ... maybe Kylers are just as rare as Peytons.
what you're calling the traditional paradigm went out of fashion 20 years ago. Bell cow backs dont win championships anymore, if they ever did. Rodgers, Brady, Brees and Peyton never had bell cow backs. And they are not fast twitch run first guys. Neither is Mahomes. What all these QBs have in common is they make plays on their own when they have to. Often enough to win games. Often enough to win trophies.
And even Seattle, despite the success with poor OL play they've invested a lot - Duane Brown trade + signing, previously spent multiple high picks on guys like Okung, Ifedi, and Unger, and more recently Pocic and Lewis.
A huge part of Baltimore's success has been their OL. Same with KC.
So I don't begrudge the OL picks and I guess it's hard to begrudge DB picks also because we have seen first hand how easy it is to lose games when you have easily exploitable players defending good WRs.
Just wish they could have found a way to grab one of those explosive WRs since they were there for the taking in good value spots.
However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.
This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.
However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.
This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.
If Jones isn't the guy, why not just cut bait now if someone better presents themselves. If not, I guess one more year is ok, but we're not winning anything until we move on.
[quote] What is his value these days?? [/quote
Probably the same value as a low post center who doesn’t shoot 3s in the NBA — very little. A bet on Rosen and his limited evasiveness is a bet on building a wall around him, which is dependent on numerous drafts and injury and draft luck (look at “sure thing” A. Thomas). See contra what we’re likely to see in Miami starting this week with Tua (who was there for the taking at #4 — too unorthodox of an idea for our old timey front office).
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.
This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.
If I could get a 3rd from say the Bears for Jones, I’m pulling the trigger immediately.
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?
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After the Philly game I posted that I thought that game would be an inflection point in this team's fortunes. I feel that way because of Judge, who I really, really like.
However, the roster is still a horrendous mistake - headlined by five first round picks that I think were all errors. I can live with Jones as the quarterback going into next year, but I don't think he's someone you consider for a second contract. As such the Giants should already be floating his name around the league. If anyone offers a second rounder (which I'm not sure they would) the Giants should jump all over it.
This roster is a disaster, and the Giants should be looking to convert all of it into picks and cap space for Gettleman's successor at every opportunity.
If I could get a 3rd from say the Bears for Jones, I’m pulling the trigger immediately.
But they already have two other Jones' on their roster - Trubisky and Foles. Why would they do that?
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the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?
No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.
You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?
100% yes. He's throwing the ball away and taking sacks more instead of forcing turnovers. On the 2 INT's he threw the past 2 games he made the correct decisions, just didn't make the throws he needed to (and both defenders made excellent INTs).
In the past 2 games Jones was 32/49 (65%) and has been at his best on the balls thrown 20+ yards downfield. He'd be above 70% competitions if Engram could catch. Garrett needs to continue to open up the offense more like he did early in the Philly game and it goes without saying the receivers around him need to catch the balls that hit them in both hands.
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You’re seeing improvements in decision making, turnovers, and going through his progressions?
100% yes. He's throwing the ball away and taking sacks more instead of forcing turnovers. On the 2 INT's he threw the past 2 games he made the correct decisions, just didn't make the throws he needed to (and both defenders made excellent INTs).
In the past 2 games Jones was 32/49 (65%) and has been at his best on the balls thrown 20+ yards downfield. He'd be above 70% competitions if Engram could catch. Garrett needs to continue to open up the offense more like he did early in the Philly game and it goes without saying the receivers around him need to catch the balls that hit them in both hands.
nonsense.. Jones is 29th among starting QBs in completion % and he barely throws the ball downfield. At least Wentz is aggressive (with his low %) and piles on the yards. So far this season, Jones has demonstrated that he can't play in the NFL. Stop making stupid excuses for him. Accurate passers don't have the 29th best completion % in the NFL.
You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
not sure who you are since you just joined BBI but your credibility is pretty low with sweeping statements like that.
carry on.
not sure who you are since you just joined BBI but your credibility is pretty low with sweeping statements like that.
carry on.
what does when I joined have to do with the reality that Jones is not special. Herbert just started playing and he is clearly running circles around Jones, both with the eye text and statistically. I'm a football and sports fan for 50 years. There aren't a lot of people who think Jones can be great and most of them are on this board. Jones was a reach at #6 and as it turns out it was a crucial mistake. Let's come to the realization. Pretending he is great isn't helping matters. And imagining he will one day be great, is an unlikely fantasy.
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.
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the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.
His passing is a bigger problem than his escapability.
No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.
Agree to disagree because that's not at all what I see. He's made excellent throws to Tate, Engram, Shepard, and Slayton on the downfield passes that have been called this year and the statistics don't lie. He's had a solid completion % from day. Last year he had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Hard to do each of those things without accuracy.
This year he's definitely regressed from a pure production standpoint and generally appeared less decisive but it's hard to tell if that's the new offense or true regression. His improvement the past 2 weeks has me optimistic it's more the former.
Lastly a simple question, imagine the world where Engram catches that pass and the Giants are on a 2 game winning streak. You're still ready to cut bait on the guy and think he doesn't even "have a chance"?
Hmmm, I seem to recall DJ having multiple games last year where he was putting up multiple TD's per game... but let's pretend that didn't happen so you can tell us how much Herbert is (and he may very well be better - my beef is you acting like none of DJ's 3 and 4 TD games last year didn't happen)
so whatever level DJ ultimately gets to in his overall game, to say he "he has demonstrated he can't play in the NFL" is a comment that allows for no actual discussion b/c it is quite frankly a dumb statement to make.
anyway, I will go back to glossing over your silly comments.
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the only skill I wish he had that he probably never will is the elite level escapability Murray, Wilson, Mahomes, and Jackson have. But that's not to say he doesn't have escapability. He clearly eludes multiple sacks per game.
His accuracy and ball placement are top tier however and I still think that's the most important trait for any QB to succeed.
Turnovers/decision making are legitimate questions but he's showing progress in both and each are correctable areas highly correlated with the performance of players around him (especially the OL). Sacks and time under pressure are the greatest predictor of turnovers as a rule of thumb regardless of QB.
Eric, in my humble opinion, his lack of elite escapability will prove to be his undoing, however. Jones gets demolished several times a game, which is not sustainable, and thus a bet on him involves continued use of precious resources building the offensive line (at the cost of so many other areas). Flowers, Pugh, Hernandez, Thomas, Solder and Zeitler, on and on ... are we seriously still going to invest in building a Great Wall around him, if someone like Fields is available? I guess we are, and I guess we will have to just hope he escapes the fate of so many other guys like him and that he becomes a Matt Ryan.
Jim a few reactions:
1- I agree durability is my biggest concern based on his style of play. As it would be if Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, or Justin Herbert were our QB. Russell Wilson imo is the model and he's done a great job reducing his rushing attempts and minimizing the amount of contact he absorbs. Kyler would be very wise to emulate that. All of these guys take more hits and are called on for designed runs than I'd prefer my QB to take.
2- I'm not a believer in Fields and if they miraculously got the 1OA pick I'd have the same concern with Lawrence (I am a believer in Lawrence). With the trend towards rushing QB's they are all taking more hits unless they have the elite escapability AND smarts Russell Wilson has developed.
3- I wouldn't lump all the OL investments together. Reese clearly made mistakes and the new regime clearly hasn't gotten it resolved yet but they are 2 different things. My biggest regret this past offseason was not hiring Callahan. I'd have preferred him as OL coach even if it meant a different OC than Garrett. That would probably be my biggest criticism of Judge so far. I wish he'd have absorbed from Scarnechia how big of a deal an elite OL coach can be. Also I don't agree that it's a negative to have resources invested in OL. They just obviously need to get better at generating ROI on whatever investments they make (which is why I think Callahan was a big missed opportunity). Hopefully the apples didn't fall far in Columbo.
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No. his accuracy and ball placement are not top tier. They are below average. You see a few good passes and think he has great ball placement. He doesn't. Many of his passes are to the feet, over the heads or the wrong side of receivers. How about that interception to end the Rams game, wrong side of the receiver. Jones is a subpar passer. yes he does have good moments but inconsistent accuracy and ball placement is exactly why he is not an elite player.
Agree to disagree because that's not at all what I see. He's made excellent throws to Tate, Engram, Shepard, and Slayton on the downfield passes that have been called this year and the statistics don't lie. He's had a solid completion % from day. Last year he had 13 tds and 0 ints in the RZ. Hard to do each of those things without accuracy.
This year he's definitely regressed from a pure production standpoint and generally appeared less decisive but it's hard to tell if that's the new offense or true regression. His improvement the past 2 weeks has me optimistic it's more the former.
Lastly a simple question, imagine the world where Engram catches that pass and the Giants are on a 2 game winning streak. You're still ready to cut bait on the guy and think he doesn't even "have a chance"?
Yes. Personally, I cut bait on this guy. I mean, I certainly let him play out the season and who knows maybe there is a miracle. But I don't see Mahomes, Lamar, Wilson, Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Kyler, Herbert, even Ryan in this guy. I want the NY Giants to have a superstar QB who will carry them to the playoffs year after year. Our wins shouldn't rely on one pass to Engram. LAst night Wilson had his TE drop a TD in the end zone. He came back and threw another great pass. Wilson and Kyler make play after play. Yes, I agree Engram is a bum. A great QB comes back with other winning plays.
You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
A competent NFL front office would. He's 4-15 as a starter and the offense has been abysmal. In that time we could have achieved similar success from almost any QB in the NFL. If he were an 8 year vet journeyman with that record we'd all be ecstatic to get a third rounder in trade.
The question you should be asking now is: am I interested in giving Jones a second contract? If the answer is no, then his value is only going down with every game that passes before he hits free agency. If the answer is yes, you're either drunk or overly influenced by hopes and wishes.
If the gods are just, very soon we'll have a new non-idiot GM to go with our promising head coach. When that happens, the rebuild actually starts...and they should be able to move forward from every player on the roster. Every single one. And when it comes to QB and RB we know two things:
- a QB on a rookie contract is a huge advantage
- paying a RB a second contract is foolish
Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?
You guys really think these are reasonable decisions that any NFL front office would actually consider?
Jones can't be judged yet. He is in his second system in 2 years without a normal preseason or camp. That second year jump often because they know the system after an entire offseason in it after a season of playing it, they can play faster.
I admit to being very nervous about his inability to hold on to the ball but he does posses some plus traits.
It really is as close to apples to apples comparison as you can get for rebuilds and DG looks really bad comparatively. I will give him until the end of they year.
Make no mistake this is 100% DG's team, in DG's third season, and it looks awful without a lot to look forward to. Is there anyone on BBI who is like...Next year, we are going to be the shit because of X Y Z. Some people point to Judge but that is nothing more than a guess because he said some typical coach speak they liked. Remember how happy everyone was because Shurmur was an adult? That is now how our bar has fallen, we were happy that our new head coach was an adult with a terrible head coaching record. FFS. There is zero success as a HC for Judge to lean on to make that speculation about him as anything more than hope.
Hmmm, I seem to recall DJ having multiple games last year where he was putting up multiple TD's per game... but let's pretend that didn't happen so you can tell us how much Herbert is (and he may very well be better - my beef is you acting like none of DJ's 3 and 4 TD games last year didn't happen)
so whatever level DJ ultimately gets to in his overall game, to say he "he has demonstrated he can't play in the NFL" is a comment that allows for no actual discussion b/c it is quite frankly a dumb statement to make.
anyway, I will go back to glossing over your silly comments.
fine ignore me.. Daniel Jones is bottom three in comp % and bottom 3 in QBR. That shows he can play? His numbers last year were better but nothing approaching elite - below middle of the pack. This is not the resume of a top-5 QB.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.
Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?
In addition to being awful in the booth they are terrible with their evals of other QBs. They don;t want to put guys down. I don;t trust anything they have to say about how young QBs are faring. They say Tyrod Taylor is good.
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In comment 15025068 djm said:
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but when comparing to another team it's referred to as the Cardinals rebuild.
Also, might be worth mentioning that Kyler Murray is playing for the Cards.
Lol ok. Does how it’s worded really matter?
Dg is working within the Giants way. It's the Giants rebuild. Meaning he's not making all the decisions.
And Murray is playing Qb for the Cards. We'd have more than 1 win right now if he was playing for NYG.
Is he though? He’s gone the opposite direction of what Reese was doing and none of its worked out. This is Gettleman’s rebuild, he’s responsible. If it makes you feel better we can call the thread Keim vs Gettleman, but it’s all the same.
That doesn't make any sense.
If you trust Judge and think he's the guy to do the total rebuild. Let him make the call on who stays and who goes. From Jones to Barkley to whomever.
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I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.
Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?
I do. I question how much you actually watch the Giants if you don't think Jones throws the football accurately, but no need to debate something we each see so differently.
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In comment 15025342 Eric on Li said:
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I'd expect trading Barkley right now nets you 50 cents on the dollar. Maybe you'd get a late first from contender. Maybe. And truth be told, if there was a player on the clock I wanted perhaps I'd consider that given there's risk he may never be the player he was his first 2 years.
Jones on the other hand is healthy and I think a potential franchise QB. That may not be a unanimous opinion among experts but there are plenty who have agreed with it (including Aikman a couple days ago, I think Phil Simms has been recently quoted, among others). If they get the #1OA pick I'd 100% consider Lawrence but I have a very high bar for what I'd consider a better QB prospect to be.
I'm a big believer that you can't let perfect be the enemy of good and Jones does a lot of things really good. He's smart, tough, athletic, and throws a very accurate ball. He hasn't won yet but he has made winning plays and some of them are tangibly rare. At minimum I think he can do everything Tannehill has done in TEN, and I think his upside to be better than Tannehill is considerable because he's started out further along.
You might.. might.. get a late first for Barkley.. pre-ACL. Now you get nothing of value until he proves he's sound.
Jones is not an accurate passer. His good plays are not tangibly rare. Mahomes makes six of those every game, Wilson makes 5 of them every game. Do you watch anybody besides the Giants?
I do. I question how much you actually watch the Giants if you don't think Jones throws the football accurately, but no need to debate something we each see so differently.
Can you read numbers? Because there isn't a single solitary number that shows Jones is any better than the 29th (maybe) most accurate starting passer in the NFL. A very accurate passer should be somewhere around 68%. Add to that is truly abysmal yds / att and yds / comp. And then when I watch him he is basically throwing the ball all over the place, usually inaccurately, mostly short dump offs. Then he makes a few good throws. He's not going to be in this league for long with play like that.
Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?
And I don’t get why anyone would continue to make wins and losses an arbiter of any individual player on a football team, even the QB. Josh Allen has more career wins in which his team scores 17 or less points than Daniel Jones has in total. The Chiefs won their division two years in a row before Mahomes became the starter, yet people here would have you believe they were the Cleveland Browns before he came along. What some are asking of Jones hasn’t been done by any active QB on a team this poor this early into a player’s career. I see people on BBI applauding Joe Burrow for something Daniel Jones did 4 or 5 times last season. I would gladly draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but I wouldn’t expect him to single-handedly turn around this dumpster fire either.
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Here's what I don't get: what is the attachment that some people here feel to Jones, Barkley, or anyone else on the roster? What have they done for this organization other than lose?
And I don’t get why anyone would continue to make wins and losses an arbiter of any individual player on a football team, even the QB. Josh Allen has more career wins in which his team scores 17 or less points than Daniel Jones has in total. The Chiefs won their division two years in a row before Mahomes became the starter, yet people here would have you believe they were the Cleveland Browns before he came along. What some are asking of Jones hasn’t been done by any active QB on a team this poor this early into a player’s career. I see people on BBI applauding Joe Burrow for something Daniel Jones did 4 or 5 times last season. I would gladly draft Trevor Lawrence given the opportunity, but I wouldn’t expect him to single-handedly turn around this dumpster fire either.
Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?
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In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:
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Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?
I know you started watching the Giants 5 weeks ago, but Daniel Jones did in fact have at least 4 games similar to or better than what Joe Burrow did yesterday. Doesn’t mean Jones will turn into Joe Montana, but there’s a segment on BBI that wants to pretend that never happened.
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In comment 15025378 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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In comment 15025325 Go Terps said:
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Can I trade Jones for Burrow, right now? I do that in a second. How about you? What do you think the Bengals say to us when we offer Jones for Burrow?
I know you started watching the Giants 5 weeks ago, but Daniel Jones did in fact have at least 4 games similar to or better than what Joe Burrow did yesterday. Doesn’t mean Jones will turn into Joe Montana, but there’s a segment on BBI that wants to pretend that never happened.
No i have been watching the Giants since 1974 and went to my first game at Shea Stadium vs the Saints. And perhaps, you'll be interested to know that Burrow is not only outperforming Daniel Jones in 2020, but he is also outpacing Jones of 2019 in every important metric. But please tell me how much better the Bengals are than the Giants.