Got mine this morning. This is my annual thread telling people to do so. I know this year is more complicated but maximize your chance to stay healthy.
another fun fact: hospitals losing $300 Billion from covid related shutdowns.
where are all the dead folks from these cancelled, but ostensibly necessary, procedures?
Where are all the dead folks? In the ground. The CDC estimates that through the beginning of October about 300,000 more people died this year than would have in a normal year. 200,000 deaths were Covid-19 related. The other 100,000 died because they didn’t get care for something else.
the first shot went fine. When I went for my follow-up shot, I actually got shingles 2 days later. It started at my lips and worked in stages to my gums, tongue and inside of my mouth, then finally to the back of my throat. The pain was progressively worse and I couldn't eat normally for about 3 weeks. The best I could do was pack my mouth with gauze to reduce contact with my teeth and lips and rinse my mouth with salt water...
I understand this isn't a common reaction... lucky me.
do whatever you want, just trying to present some alternative views. its a free country, maybe for another week. i hope you are all so smug if this stuff becomes mandatory and you can't travel or work without it.
Actually, it sounds like anti-vaxxer gobblety goop. I apologize if I am misunderstanding you.
Yes diet and even simple exercise will help a lot and I would hope that is understood. Unfortunately even the very healthy need medicines like vaccinations because of all the virus and bacteria that have mutated to deadly and even those that have always been deadly.
Without getting to deep into it, even seriously healthy people die from flu and infections where vaccines would be a serious help.
And as people get older their systems do get weaker, so they need additional help that vaccination provides.
Yes obesity is a leading cause of heart disease and diabetes. Yes far less people would succumb to these if not 20+ pounds overweight through diet and exercise.
Yes a stronger immune system would reduce the effects of flues, but it does not prevent them.
I never got a flu shot until two or three years ago - I have no health issues but the doctor said it was time to start. But for less than $35 you can reduce symptoms or prevent it altogether. Unless you have allergies, there is very little down side. And in a year where COVID is knocking off mostly old and ill people, wouldn't you add a measure of protection. Yeah if your under 50, not a big deal I suppose.
It's funny...you're skeptical of the flu shot while I'm thinking that everything you listed to prevent the flu instead of the flu shot is pretty much new millenium snake oil.
Different strokes I guess.
you're about 5 millenia behind actually.
re supplement, lifestyle and treatment of root causes, there is a great deal of real science.
quality of products do vary. do your research.
Lol. I think I have done sufficient research. If all that stuff makes you generally more fit and healthy, then great. It it’s not going to make your immune system better and it’s certainly not going to supplant the effects or need for a flu shot.
RE: I had a terrible reaction to the Shingles vaccine...
the first shot went fine. When I went for my follow-up shot, I actually got shingles 2 days later. It started at my lips and worked in stages to my gums, tongue and inside of my mouth, then finally to the back of my throat. The pain was progressively worse and I couldn't eat normally for about 3 weeks. The best I could do was pack my mouth with gauze to reduce contact with my teeth and lips and rinse my mouth with salt water...
I understand this isn't a common reaction... lucky me.
Damn you! Sorry you got sick but now you just ruined my follow up shot.
RE: Last flu shot I got was the 1975 Swine flu shot
Some people still won’t even wear a mask, they’re not getting a shot...
Dude, masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to others. They do not prevent you from getting the virus. So your analogy with the flu shot is completely wrong.
But probably you know that and you were just trying to politicize the thread
I believe that masks also protect the wearer, as if you come into contact with someone who has it, but if you're wearing a mask, your symptoms won't be as severe if you catch it.
Some people still won’t even wear a mask, they’re not getting a shot...
Dude, masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to others. They do not prevent you from getting the virus. So your analogy with the flu shot is completely wrong.
But probably you know that and you were just trying to politicize the thread
Doesn’t sound political to me. People don’t want to be told what to do, it’s just that simple. Mask, shot, etc, makes no difference. And if wearing a mask prevents the spread how would that not also keep you from getting it, potentially?
Don’t have a choice. Since my auto immune disease which has no cure and has no reason for onset, dictates I need it. Despite all the infusions and other meds I have to have
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
Anti-vaxxers are the most insane people on the planet
Some people still won’t even wear a mask, they’re not getting a shot...
Dude, masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to others. They do not prevent you from getting the virus. So your analogy with the flu shot is completely wrong.
But probably you know that and you were just trying to politicize the thread
He brought up masks was to show the selfishness of our countrymen-- that people won't do somethign as inocuous as wearing a mask, so they won't do something more invasive as getting a flu shot.
It is also fair to compare both actions. Aside from the research suggesting that masks can reduce the viral load to the wearer (since Covid attaches to water droplets as well as aeresolizes) and theoretically reduce the severity of a Covid infection, its primary goal is to prevent the wearer from spreading the virus.
The flu vaccine has two goals-- protect someone from getting the flu, AND creating herd immunity to prevent spreading the flu to the most vulnurable who can't get the vaccine, and to generally prevent the spread of the flu since the vaccine isn't 100% effective.
On a separate note, that bringing up wearing masks to prevent the spread of the worst pandemic in 100 years is seen as "politicizing" a thread just shows how fucked we are as a country and how shamefully our country has responded and handled this virus. So many people who claim to love this country yet couldn't give two shits about their fellow Americans.
I have traveled to virtually every east coast state
from Vermont to Florida during the time of the Covid. I have seen near 100% mask compliance in every store / business. Where is there non-compliance?
Outdoors (even in semi-crowded parks) many people don't wear masks, even in the North East.
Beyond that, many non-coastal regions of this country have shitty mask compliance (and often don't require them even indoors), hence their exploding case loads.
The flu vaccine has two goals-- protect someone from getting the flu, AND creating herd immunity to prevent spreading the flu to the most vulnurable who can't get the vaccine, and to generally prevent the spread of the flu since the vaccine isn't 100% effective.
Agree you on with masks, but herd immunity is letting people spread the virus to allow natural antibodies to develop in the community and therefore eliminate the virus as life threatening and knowing that some will die.
Vaccines trick the immune system into building a natural defense against the disease by building antibodies. Vaccines use dead virus while herd immunity "uses" the virus itself.
The flu vaccine has two goals-- protect someone from getting the flu, AND creating herd immunity to prevent spreading the flu to the most vulnurable who can't get the vaccine, and to generally prevent the spread of the flu since the vaccine isn't 100% effective.
Agree you on with masks, but herd immunity is letting people spread the virus to allow natural antibodies to develop in the community and therefore eliminate the virus as life threatening and knowing that some will die.
Vaccines trick the immune system into building a natural defense against the disease by building antibodies. Vaccines use dead virus while herd immunity "uses" the virus itself.
I'm pretty sure that herd immunity is simply getting enough people immune so that the virus will not be successfully transmitted. It does not have to be done through natural infection; a vaccine campaign that will also get the requisite number of people immune will also do the trick.
To a large extent, immune is immune, regardless of whether immunity is a consequence of infection or vaccine. There are some distinctions that are sometimes subtle and sometimes large. Those may be in the exact repertoire of antibodies elicited or they may be due to different modes of immunity that a stimulated (antibodies versus non-antibodies). But, the end goal is immunity either way.
Vaccines are not necessarily "dead" virus. They could be an inactive virus or it could be a live virus that is weakened or it could be a live virus that is not the "actual" virus but, rather, a closely related virus that does not cause illness. In fact, it may not be the virus at all but, instead, protein pieces of the virus or even just genetic material from the virus. But, so long as any of these induce immunity in enough people, then you can get herd immunity.
The herd immunity through spread of live virus, knoiwing some will die
is mostly an in vogue thing because of COVID where there is no vaccine. It was a flawed strategy that I believe was first suggested by some people in England as a way to burn SARS out. I think another country (maybe Sweden?) actually tried it, to their regret.
is mostly an in vogue thing because of COVID where there is no vaccine. It was a flawed strategy that I believe was first suggested by some people in England as a way to burn SARS out. I think another country (maybe Sweden?) actually tried it, to their regret.
Not sure Sweden regrets it. They still seem to be for it....
RE: RE: The herd immunity through spread of live virus, knoiwing some will die
is mostly an in vogue thing because of COVID where there is no vaccine. It was a flawed strategy that I believe was first suggested by some people in England as a way to burn SARS out. I think another country (maybe Sweden?) actually tried it, to their regret.
Not sure Sweden regrets it. They still seem to be for it....
Maybe so. Not sure it's a viable (NPI) thing though.
RE: RE: RE: The herd immunity through spread of live virus, knoiwing some will die
is mostly an in vogue thing because of COVID where there is no vaccine. It was a flawed strategy that I believe was first suggested by some people in England as a way to burn SARS out. I think another country (maybe Sweden?) actually tried it, to their regret.
Not sure Sweden regrets it. They still seem to be for it....
Maybe so. Not sure it's a viable (NPI) thing though.
I agree.
Getting back to herd immunity - while I agree that vaccination leads to reduced transmission and symptoms, I think the term herd immunity means letting the populace contract the disease and once it has spread through enough people they will no longer be able to transmit it, except to those who did not get it. Example is colds. IIRC there are nearly 250 different viruses that cause colds and once you get one, you will not get that particular cold again. I used to get 3 or 4 colds per year, cannot remember the last time I got one of any consequence. This virus is not like colds, although I read that there are strains of corona virus that cause colds and it is possible symptomless carriers have had a very similar corona virus that the body's immune system has antibodies for that suppresses covid-19. IDK if that is true or a theory or BS.
with "Sweden is a disaster" is that it's maybe not quite how the Swedish view it. They never shut down.
People will criticize these graphs, and try and qualify things a certain way, but at the end of the day I just don't trust any media source right now not to politicize this pandemic and to focus on the most negative and fear mongering aspect and I feel like they deserve that.
Don’t have a choice. Since my auto immune disease which has no cure and has no reason for onset, dictates I need it. Despite all the infusions and other meds I have to have
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
truly sorry for your health issues. There are certainly extenuating circumstances where a lot of intervention for certain people is called for.
As for chronic diseases and seasonal outbreaks, along with side effect risk and medical errors, I stand by my view that lifestyle and diet will go a great way towards reducing lots of suffering and economic cost in this country.
We are exposed to a great deal of toxicity in our modern world from chemicals and pollutants along with processed foods.
Creating a healthy environment in our body is important in keeping long-term well being. The right supplementation can help. If I sound like a nut to some of you so be it, I wish you all the best.
with "Sweden is a disaster" is that it's maybe not quite how the Swedish view it. They never shut down.
People will criticize these graphs, and try and qualify things a certain way, but at the end of the day I just don't trust any media source right now not to politicize this pandemic and to focus on the most negative and fear mongering aspect and I feel like they deserve that.
Do you have charts comparing Sweden's closest neighbors?
they didn't lock down, but they limited gatherings to 50 people and they prevented people from visiting nursing homes. It wasn't a complete free for all. They also intentionally conducted far less testing (which reduces number of confirmed cases but has no impact on actual spread).
More than that, the reason the US couldn't adopt the Sweden model is because Americans don't trust their government or authorities the way that Swedes do. Even with the hands-off approach, most Swedes stayed home, minimized unnecessary social gatherings, and exercised social distancing because they "conform."
Sweden has had lower cases, but their overall death rates rival the United States, which is disastrous. Also, I believe that the United States is considered to be a far less healthy country compared with Sweden, and so I would imagine that comorbidities and underlying ailments would cause even higher rates of death in the US if they took the herd immunity approach.
There is now a massive split within Sweden as to whether to tighten up restrictions or continue as is.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The herd immunity through spread of live virus, knoiwing some will die
Getting back to herd immunity - while I agree that vaccination leads to reduced transmission and symptoms, I think the term herd immunity means letting the populace contract the disease and once it has spread through enough people they will no longer be able to transmit it, except to those who did not get it. Example is colds. IIRC there are nearly 250 different viruses that cause colds and once you get one, you will not get that particular cold again. I used to get 3 or 4 colds per year, cannot remember the last time I got one of any consequence. This virus is not like colds, although I read that there are strains of corona virus that cause colds and it is possible symptomless carriers have had a very similar corona virus that the body's immune system has antibodies for that suppresses covid-19. IDK if that is true or a theory or BS.
There are 7 different coronaviruses that infect humans. Three of them cause severe disease (SARS, SARS-2, MERS) and the other 4 cause mild cold-type diseases. Antibodies to the 4 "common" coronaviruses don't react with COV-2, so they don't suppress or enhance COVID-19. However infection with those common coronaviruses do lead to the production of cells called T cells and some of those T cells do react with CoV-2 and may offer some protection (or some exacerbation) for COVID-19.
Don’t have a choice. Since my auto immune disease which has no cure and has no reason for onset, dictates I need it. Despite all the infusions and other meds I have to have
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
truly sorry for your health issues. There are certainly extenuating circumstances where a lot of intervention for certain people is called for.
As for chronic diseases and seasonal outbreaks, along with side effect risk and medical errors, I stand by my view that lifestyle and diet will go a great way towards reducing lots of suffering and economic cost in this country.
We are exposed to a great deal of toxicity in our modern world from chemicals and pollutants along with processed foods.
Creating a healthy environment in our body is important in keeping long-term well being. The right supplementation can help. If I sound like a nut to some of you so be it, I wish you all the best.
I'm not trying to attack you and ask this with respect, but why can't vaccines be used in conjunction with healthy lifestyles? Do you believe there are health risks involved with vaccines that outweigh the immunities they provide? Nothing is perfect, but vaccines are one of the best tools we have to combat disease. I'm genuinely curious to understand your mindset because you are clearly not alone on this.
Lastly, no amount of supplements can even approach what a vaccine can provide in protection.
How many people have T cell immunity from prior coronaviruses? This is important because it lowers the total number of infections needed to reach herd immunity.
who think the whole flu vaccination thing is about Pharma making money, you're barking up the wrong tree. Vaccines are so unprofitable that the government has to cajole and offer protections and incentives to get companies to make them.
How many people have T cell immunity from prior coronaviruses? This is important because it lowers the total number of infections needed to reach herd immunity.
Does anyone know?
There’s no data for that. And it’s not clear that it would be relevant anyway.
There have only been limited studies on coronavirus immunity, so no ironclad statements can be made. But the limited data they have has lead researchers to believe that there’s a good likelihood that coronavirus immunity wears off.
will be for the COVID vaccine. Right now the Flu Shot's adoption rate in the US s a hair under 50% for all those over 6 months of age. Most people I talk to will either not be getting the COVID vaccine or will wait an undetermined amount of time before doing so. I feel like 25% is a stretch but I could be completely off base there.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The herd immunity through spread of live virus, knoiwing some will die
Getting back to herd immunity - while I agree that vaccination leads to reduced transmission and symptoms, I think the term herd immunity means letting the populace contract the disease and once it has spread through enough people they will no longer be able to transmit it, except to those who did not get it. Example is colds. IIRC there are nearly 250 different viruses that cause colds and once you get one, you will not get that particular cold again. I used to get 3 or 4 colds per year, cannot remember the last time I got one of any consequence. This virus is not like colds, although I read that there are strains of corona virus that cause colds and it is possible symptomless carriers have had a very similar corona virus that the body's immune system has antibodies for that suppresses covid-19. IDK if that is true or a theory or BS.
There are 7 different coronaviruses that infect humans. Three of them cause severe disease (SARS, SARS-2, MERS) and the other 4 cause mild cold-type diseases. Antibodies to the 4 "common" coronaviruses don't react with COV-2, so they don't suppress or enhance COVID-19. However infection with those common coronaviruses do lead to the production of cells called T cells and some of those T cells do react with CoV-2 and may offer some protection (or some exacerbation) for COVID-19.
Thanks for clarifying. That was what I was wondering - I actually thought there were more than 4 covids that caused colds. But Yes, I was wondering if previous contact with those cold causing viruses could reduce the effects of Covid-19. Maybe it does.
Don’t have a choice. Since my auto immune disease which has no cure and has no reason for onset, dictates I need it. Despite all the infusions and other meds I have to have
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
truly sorry for your health issues. There are certainly extenuating circumstances where a lot of intervention for certain people is called for.
As for chronic diseases and seasonal outbreaks, along with side effect risk and medical errors, I stand by my view that lifestyle and diet will go a great way towards reducing lots of suffering and economic cost in this country.
We are exposed to a great deal of toxicity in our modern world from chemicals and pollutants along with processed foods.
Creating a healthy environment in our body is important in keeping long-term well being. The right supplementation can help. If I sound like a nut to some of you so be it, I wish you all the best.
I'm not trying to attack you and ask this with respect, but why can't vaccines be used in conjunction with healthy lifestyles? Do you believe there are health risks involved with vaccines that outweigh the immunities they provide? Nothing is perfect, but vaccines are one of the best tools we have to combat disease. I'm genuinely curious to understand your mindset because you are clearly not alone on this.
Lastly, no amount of supplements can even approach what a vaccine can provide in protection.
i'm not against any and all vaccines. sure, they are appropriate in certain circumstances, but i would hope people approach their medical care with eyes open. i have seen first hand in my family the effects of poor lifestyle and the complete reliance on doctors and drugs to manage preventable
chronic illness and then a spiral of complications resulting from same.
and it's unfair to label people as 'anti vax' for exercising some critical thinking.
have you seen the constant TV drug ads for every conceivable condition? new powerful drugs hit the market constantly. is there not a possible conflict of interest to consider?
what are the cumulative effects of one or more newly-formulated vaccinations annually over 2-3 decades? are rapid advances in gene technology risking outcomes we can't predict?
my personal approach is reduce toxins through non-medical means and maximize my resistance to, and thus minimize the effects of, any threat, and live the best quality life for the longest time. i respect other's decisions and i hope we will still have the choice to self determine. best to you.
between drugs for personal conditions like restless leg syndrome or ulcerative colitis or even depression (like you see so often on TV) and a vaccine for infectious disease which I never see on TV. The only vaccine i see on TV is for HPV and in that case - critical think away.
none of those personal conditions are contagious and you taking those drugs or not has no bearing on others outside your family (directly).
Deciding not to take a vaccine in favor of eating well, taking supplements and praying is not a well researched opinion.
Critical thinking should be applauded but sometimes occam's razor can save you some time.
How many people have T cell immunity from prior coronaviruses? This is important because it lowers the total number of infections needed to reach herd immunity.
Does anyone know?
There’s no data for that. And it’s not clear that it would be relevant anyway.
There have only been limited studies on coronavirus immunity, so no ironclad statements can be made. But the limited data they have has lead researchers to believe that there’s a good likelihood that coronavirus immunity wears off.
Oops! There is data. From the British medical Journal. You're correct that no ironclad statements can be made. And T-cell immunity doesn't wear off. I should have looked before I posted Data on T-cell immunity - ( New Window )
Younger guy took it like a champ. My older daughter refused. Lesson learned : don’t surprise older kids, especially sensitive ones. Give them lead time.
between drugs for personal conditions like restless leg syndrome or ulcerative colitis or even depression (like you see so often on TV) and a vaccine for infectious disease which I never see on TV. The only vaccine i see on TV is for HPV and in that case - critical think away.
none of those personal conditions are contagious and you taking those drugs or not has no bearing on others outside your family (directly).
Deciding not to take a vaccine in favor of eating well, taking supplements and praying is not a well researched opinion.
Critical thinking should be applauded but sometimes occam's razor can save you some time.
thankfully i haven't had anything like a flu for many years and i never took a shot, and i decline to take one now. i don't "pray" not to get the flu. i used it as an one example of means to de-stress, do whatever the fuck you want. and i don't need to be fucking lectured about how to protect mine or anyone else's family. really, i tried to be nice.
How many people have T cell immunity from prior coronaviruses? This is important because it lowers the total number of infections needed to reach herd immunity.
Does anyone know?
There’s no data for that. And it’s not clear that it would be relevant anyway.
There have only been limited studies on coronavirus immunity, so no ironclad statements can be made. But the limited data they have has lead researchers to believe that there’s a good likelihood that coronavirus immunity wears off.
Some recent studies suggest that antibody levels recede sooner than expected. I’m not sure that means that immunity wears off. Like you said (maybe not about this but still appropriate) there’s no data for that.
between drugs for personal conditions like restless leg syndrome or ulcerative colitis or even depression (like you see so often on TV) and a vaccine for infectious disease which I never see on TV. The only vaccine i see on TV is for HPV and in that case - critical think away.
none of those personal conditions are contagious and you taking those drugs or not has no bearing on others outside your family (directly).
Deciding not to take a vaccine in favor of eating well, taking supplements and praying is not a well researched opinion.
Critical thinking should be applauded but sometimes occam's razor can save you some time.
thankfully i haven't had anything like a flu for many years and i never took a shot, and i decline to take one now. i don't "pray" not to get the flu. i used it as an one example of means to de-stress, do whatever the fuck you want. and i don't need to be fucking lectured about how to protect mine or anyone else's family. really, i tried to be nice.
I guess, Like for most things in a free country, you can do whatever you want. But choose for yourself and take
Your own advice. Beyond saying being healthy is generally better than not, being healthy, don’t pitch anything but actually
Medicine (or in this case vaccination) as being anything other than emotionally comforting as opposed to being an actual flu
Preventative. Purveying Misinformation does or should fall on the list of things not to do whatever the hell you want.
"Getting vaccinated yourself may also protect people around you, including those who are more vulnerable to serious flu illness, like babies and young children, older people, and people with certain chronic health conditions.Despite the many benefits offered by flu vaccination, only about half of Americans get an annual flu vaccine and flu continues to cause millions of illnesses, hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations and tens of thousands of deaths. Many more people could be protected from flu if more people got vaccinated."
I think the messaging on flu vaccines has been really poorly promoted. It's not all about you. It can help lessen the severity and prevent the spread to at risk people- particularly young children who cannot get it. Not to be too dramatic but it can literally save babies and young childrens lives.
For the life of me I will never understand people's steadfast refusal to get it.
there is nothign nice about spreading anti-vaxxer conspiracy theories.
I agree with you that we have a health crisis in this country. Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, you name it. It's shameful. But you're creating a false choice. We can live well AND get the flu vaccine to prevent infection, mitigate the contagion, and protect vulnerable people. They are not mutually exclusive.
And spouting anti-vaxxer tropes that losing weight/exercising is all you need to do to stop the flu, and parroting lies about vaccines being a Big Pharma profit scheme do not help anyone. All it does now is spreads two things: disinformation AND the flu.
with "Sweden is a disaster" is that it's maybe not quite how the Swedish view it. They never shut down.
People will criticize these graphs, and try and qualify things a certain way, but at the end of the day I just don't trust any media source right now not to politicize this pandemic and to focus on the most negative and fear mongering aspect and I feel like they deserve that.
Do you have charts comparing Sweden's closest neighbors?
This one has Denmark. I haven't seen Norway or Finland or anywhere else in Scandinavia. Not sure how relevant though since I'm not clear on what measures those other countries took.
there is nothign nice about spreading anti-vaxxer conspiracy theories.
I agree with you that we have a health crisis in this country. Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, you name it. It's shameful. But you're creating a false choice. We can live well AND get the flu vaccine to prevent infection, mitigate the contagion, and protect vulnerable people. They are not mutually exclusive.
And spouting anti-vaxxer tropes that losing weight/exercising is all you need to do to stop the flu, and parroting lies about vaccines being a Big Pharma profit scheme do not help anyone. All it does now is spreads two things: disinformation AND the flu.
Bravo. Some of you have more patience than I do. I tuned out earlier. Some battles are left unfought. My blood pressure might go up and then my recliner might give me the flu.
FYI, never got the flu since then and with everyone wearing masks today gonna be a non-existent flu season anyway.
where are all the dead folks from these cancelled, but ostensibly necessary, procedures?
Where are all the dead folks? In the ground. The CDC estimates that through the beginning of October about 300,000 more people died this year than would have in a normal year. 200,000 deaths were Covid-19 related. The other 100,000 died because they didn’t get care for something else.
Excess Deaths - ( New Window )
I understand this isn't a common reaction... lucky me.
Actually, it sounds like anti-vaxxer gobblety goop. I apologize if I am misunderstanding you.
Yes diet and even simple exercise will help a lot and I would hope that is understood. Unfortunately even the very healthy need medicines like vaccinations because of all the virus and bacteria that have mutated to deadly and even those that have always been deadly.
Without getting to deep into it, even seriously healthy people die from flu and infections where vaccines would be a serious help.
And as people get older their systems do get weaker, so they need additional help that vaccination provides.
Yes obesity is a leading cause of heart disease and diabetes. Yes far less people would succumb to these if not 20+ pounds overweight through diet and exercise.
Yes a stronger immune system would reduce the effects of flues, but it does not prevent them.
I never got a flu shot until two or three years ago - I have no health issues but the doctor said it was time to start. But for less than $35 you can reduce symptoms or prevent it altogether. Unless you have allergies, there is very little down side. And in a year where COVID is knocking off mostly old and ill people, wouldn't you add a measure of protection. Yeah if your under 50, not a big deal I suppose.
Quote:
It's funny...you're skeptical of the flu shot while I'm thinking that everything you listed to prevent the flu instead of the flu shot is pretty much new millenium snake oil.
Different strokes I guess.
you're about 5 millenia behind actually.
re supplement, lifestyle and treatment of root causes, there is a great deal of real science.
quality of products do vary. do your research.
Lol. I think I have done sufficient research. If all that stuff makes you generally more fit and healthy, then great. It it’s not going to make your immune system better and it’s certainly not going to supplant the effects or need for a flu shot.
I understand this isn't a common reaction... lucky me.
Damn you! Sorry you got sick but now you just ruined my follow up shot.
FYI, never got the flu since then and with everyone wearing masks today gonna be a non-existent flu season anyway.
Yeah, because everyone is wearing a mask in Stanley's America...
Dude, masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to others. They do not prevent you from getting the virus. So your analogy with the flu shot is completely wrong.
But probably you know that and you were just trying to politicize the thread
Quote:
Some people still won’t even wear a mask, they’re not getting a shot...
Dude, masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to others. They do not prevent you from getting the virus. So your analogy with the flu shot is completely wrong.
But probably you know that and you were just trying to politicize the thread
Doesn’t sound political to me. People don’t want to be told what to do, it’s just that simple. Mask, shot, etc, makes no difference. And if wearing a mask prevents the spread how would that not also keep you from getting it, potentially?
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
Quote:
Some people still won’t even wear a mask, they’re not getting a shot...
Dude, masks help prevent you from spreading the virus to others. They do not prevent you from getting the virus. So your analogy with the flu shot is completely wrong.
But probably you know that and you were just trying to politicize the thread
He brought up masks was to show the selfishness of our countrymen-- that people won't do somethign as inocuous as wearing a mask, so they won't do something more invasive as getting a flu shot.
It is also fair to compare both actions. Aside from the research suggesting that masks can reduce the viral load to the wearer (since Covid attaches to water droplets as well as aeresolizes) and theoretically reduce the severity of a Covid infection, its primary goal is to prevent the wearer from spreading the virus.
The flu vaccine has two goals-- protect someone from getting the flu, AND creating herd immunity to prevent spreading the flu to the most vulnurable who can't get the vaccine, and to generally prevent the spread of the flu since the vaccine isn't 100% effective.
On a separate note, that bringing up wearing masks to prevent the spread of the worst pandemic in 100 years is seen as "politicizing" a thread just shows how fucked we are as a country and how shamefully our country has responded and handled this virus. So many people who claim to love this country yet couldn't give two shits about their fellow Americans.
Outdoors (even in semi-crowded parks) many people don't wear masks, even in the North East.
Beyond that, many non-coastal regions of this country have shitty mask compliance (and often don't require them even indoors), hence their exploding case loads.
The flu vaccine has two goals-- protect someone from getting the flu, AND creating herd immunity to prevent spreading the flu to the most vulnurable who can't get the vaccine, and to generally prevent the spread of the flu since the vaccine isn't 100% effective.
Agree you on with masks, but herd immunity is letting people spread the virus to allow natural antibodies to develop in the community and therefore eliminate the virus as life threatening and knowing that some will die.
Vaccines trick the immune system into building a natural defense against the disease by building antibodies. Vaccines use dead virus while herd immunity "uses" the virus itself.
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The flu vaccine has two goals-- protect someone from getting the flu, AND creating herd immunity to prevent spreading the flu to the most vulnurable who can't get the vaccine, and to generally prevent the spread of the flu since the vaccine isn't 100% effective.
Agree you on with masks, but herd immunity is letting people spread the virus to allow natural antibodies to develop in the community and therefore eliminate the virus as life threatening and knowing that some will die.
Vaccines trick the immune system into building a natural defense against the disease by building antibodies. Vaccines use dead virus while herd immunity "uses" the virus itself.
I'm pretty sure that herd immunity is simply getting enough people immune so that the virus will not be successfully transmitted. It does not have to be done through natural infection; a vaccine campaign that will also get the requisite number of people immune will also do the trick.
To a large extent, immune is immune, regardless of whether immunity is a consequence of infection or vaccine. There are some distinctions that are sometimes subtle and sometimes large. Those may be in the exact repertoire of antibodies elicited or they may be due to different modes of immunity that a stimulated (antibodies versus non-antibodies). But, the end goal is immunity either way.
Vaccines are not necessarily "dead" virus. They could be an inactive virus or it could be a live virus that is weakened or it could be a live virus that is not the "actual" virus but, rather, a closely related virus that does not cause illness. In fact, it may not be the virus at all but, instead, protein pieces of the virus or even just genetic material from the virus. But, so long as any of these induce immunity in enough people, then you can get herd immunity.
There is no proven truth to *permanent* immunity to Covid. There are multiple documented cases of individuals catching it more than once.
There is no proven truth to *permanent* immunity to Covid. There are multiple documented cases of individuals catching it more than once.
Really, really rare events which shouldn't impact herd immunity (if herd immunity was actually possible to achieve with COVID)
Not sure Sweden regrets it. They still seem to be for it....
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is mostly an in vogue thing because of COVID where there is no vaccine. It was a flawed strategy that I believe was first suggested by some people in England as a way to burn SARS out. I think another country (maybe Sweden?) actually tried it, to their regret.
Not sure Sweden regrets it. They still seem to be for it....
Maybe so. Not sure it's a viable (NPI) thing though.
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In comment 15025928 Bill L said:
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is mostly an in vogue thing because of COVID where there is no vaccine. It was a flawed strategy that I believe was first suggested by some people in England as a way to burn SARS out. I think another country (maybe Sweden?) actually tried it, to their regret.
Not sure Sweden regrets it. They still seem to be for it....
Maybe so. Not sure it's a viable (NPI) thing though.
I agree.
Getting back to herd immunity - while I agree that vaccination leads to reduced transmission and symptoms, I think the term herd immunity means letting the populace contract the disease and once it has spread through enough people they will no longer be able to transmit it, except to those who did not get it. Example is colds. IIRC there are nearly 250 different viruses that cause colds and once you get one, you will not get that particular cold again. I used to get 3 or 4 colds per year, cannot remember the last time I got one of any consequence. This virus is not like colds, although I read that there are strains of corona virus that cause colds and it is possible symptomless carriers have had a very similar corona virus that the body's immune system has antibodies for that suppresses covid-19. IDK if that is true or a theory or BS.
The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the World - ( New Window )
People will criticize these graphs, and try and qualify things a certain way, but at the end of the day I just don't trust any media source right now not to politicize this pandemic and to focus on the most negative and fear mongering aspect and I feel like they deserve that.
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
truly sorry for your health issues. There are certainly extenuating circumstances where a lot of intervention for certain people is called for.
As for chronic diseases and seasonal outbreaks, along with side effect risk and medical errors, I stand by my view that lifestyle and diet will go a great way towards reducing lots of suffering and economic cost in this country.
We are exposed to a great deal of toxicity in our modern world from chemicals and pollutants along with processed foods.
Creating a healthy environment in our body is important in keeping long-term well being. The right supplementation can help. If I sound like a nut to some of you so be it, I wish you all the best.
People will criticize these graphs, and try and qualify things a certain way, but at the end of the day I just don't trust any media source right now not to politicize this pandemic and to focus on the most negative and fear mongering aspect and I feel like they deserve that.
Do you have charts comparing Sweden's closest neighbors?
More than that, the reason the US couldn't adopt the Sweden model is because Americans don't trust their government or authorities the way that Swedes do. Even with the hands-off approach, most Swedes stayed home, minimized unnecessary social gatherings, and exercised social distancing because they "conform."
Sweden has had lower cases, but their overall death rates rival the United States, which is disastrous. Also, I believe that the United States is considered to be a far less healthy country compared with Sweden, and so I would imagine that comorbidities and underlying ailments would cause even higher rates of death in the US if they took the herd immunity approach.
There is now a massive split within Sweden as to whether to tighten up restrictions or continue as is.
I agree.
Getting back to herd immunity - while I agree that vaccination leads to reduced transmission and symptoms, I think the term herd immunity means letting the populace contract the disease and once it has spread through enough people they will no longer be able to transmit it, except to those who did not get it. Example is colds. IIRC there are nearly 250 different viruses that cause colds and once you get one, you will not get that particular cold again. I used to get 3 or 4 colds per year, cannot remember the last time I got one of any consequence. This virus is not like colds, although I read that there are strains of corona virus that cause colds and it is possible symptomless carriers have had a very similar corona virus that the body's immune system has antibodies for that suppresses covid-19. IDK if that is true or a theory or BS.
There are 7 different coronaviruses that infect humans. Three of them cause severe disease (SARS, SARS-2, MERS) and the other 4 cause mild cold-type diseases. Antibodies to the 4 "common" coronaviruses don't react with COV-2, so they don't suppress or enhance COVID-19. However infection with those common coronaviruses do lead to the production of cells called T cells and some of those T cells do react with CoV-2 and may offer some protection (or some exacerbation) for COVID-19.
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Don’t have a choice. Since my auto immune disease which has no cure and has no reason for onset, dictates I need it. Despite all the infusions and other meds I have to have
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
truly sorry for your health issues. There are certainly extenuating circumstances where a lot of intervention for certain people is called for.
As for chronic diseases and seasonal outbreaks, along with side effect risk and medical errors, I stand by my view that lifestyle and diet will go a great way towards reducing lots of suffering and economic cost in this country.
We are exposed to a great deal of toxicity in our modern world from chemicals and pollutants along with processed foods.
Creating a healthy environment in our body is important in keeping long-term well being. The right supplementation can help. If I sound like a nut to some of you so be it, I wish you all the best.
I'm not trying to attack you and ask this with respect, but why can't vaccines be used in conjunction with healthy lifestyles? Do you believe there are health risks involved with vaccines that outweigh the immunities they provide? Nothing is perfect, but vaccines are one of the best tools we have to combat disease. I'm genuinely curious to understand your mindset because you are clearly not alone on this.
Lastly, no amount of supplements can even approach what a vaccine can provide in protection.
Does anyone know?
Explain how that works?
Does anyone know?
There’s no data for that. And it’s not clear that it would be relevant anyway.
There have only been limited studies on coronavirus immunity, so no ironclad statements can be made. But the limited data they have has lead researchers to believe that there’s a good likelihood that coronavirus immunity wears off.
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I agree.
Getting back to herd immunity - while I agree that vaccination leads to reduced transmission and symptoms, I think the term herd immunity means letting the populace contract the disease and once it has spread through enough people they will no longer be able to transmit it, except to those who did not get it. Example is colds. IIRC there are nearly 250 different viruses that cause colds and once you get one, you will not get that particular cold again. I used to get 3 or 4 colds per year, cannot remember the last time I got one of any consequence. This virus is not like colds, although I read that there are strains of corona virus that cause colds and it is possible symptomless carriers have had a very similar corona virus that the body's immune system has antibodies for that suppresses covid-19. IDK if that is true or a theory or BS.
There are 7 different coronaviruses that infect humans. Three of them cause severe disease (SARS, SARS-2, MERS) and the other 4 cause mild cold-type diseases. Antibodies to the 4 "common" coronaviruses don't react with COV-2, so they don't suppress or enhance COVID-19. However infection with those common coronaviruses do lead to the production of cells called T cells and some of those T cells do react with CoV-2 and may offer some protection (or some exacerbation) for COVID-19.
Thanks for clarifying. That was what I was wondering - I actually thought there were more than 4 covids that caused colds. But Yes, I was wondering if previous contact with those cold causing viruses could reduce the effects of Covid-19. Maybe it does.
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In comment 15025760 stretch234 said:
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Don’t have a choice. Since my auto immune disease which has no cure and has no reason for onset, dictates I need it. Despite all the infusions and other meds I have to have
I guess the specialists at Mass General and Johns Hopkins missed the boat on supplements
truly sorry for your health issues. There are certainly extenuating circumstances where a lot of intervention for certain people is called for.
As for chronic diseases and seasonal outbreaks, along with side effect risk and medical errors, I stand by my view that lifestyle and diet will go a great way towards reducing lots of suffering and economic cost in this country.
We are exposed to a great deal of toxicity in our modern world from chemicals and pollutants along with processed foods.
Creating a healthy environment in our body is important in keeping long-term well being. The right supplementation can help. If I sound like a nut to some of you so be it, I wish you all the best.
I'm not trying to attack you and ask this with respect, but why can't vaccines be used in conjunction with healthy lifestyles? Do you believe there are health risks involved with vaccines that outweigh the immunities they provide? Nothing is perfect, but vaccines are one of the best tools we have to combat disease. I'm genuinely curious to understand your mindset because you are clearly not alone on this.
Lastly, no amount of supplements can even approach what a vaccine can provide in protection.
i'm not against any and all vaccines. sure, they are appropriate in certain circumstances, but i would hope people approach their medical care with eyes open. i have seen first hand in my family the effects of poor lifestyle and the complete reliance on doctors and drugs to manage preventable
chronic illness and then a spiral of complications resulting from same.
and it's unfair to label people as 'anti vax' for exercising some critical thinking.
have you seen the constant TV drug ads for every conceivable condition? new powerful drugs hit the market constantly. is there not a possible conflict of interest to consider?
what are the cumulative effects of one or more newly-formulated vaccinations annually over 2-3 decades? are rapid advances in gene technology risking outcomes we can't predict?
my personal approach is reduce toxins through non-medical means and maximize my resistance to, and thus minimize the effects of, any threat, and live the best quality life for the longest time. i respect other's decisions and i hope we will still have the choice to self determine. best to you.
none of those personal conditions are contagious and you taking those drugs or not has no bearing on others outside your family (directly).
Deciding not to take a vaccine in favor of eating well, taking supplements and praying is not a well researched opinion.
Critical thinking should be applauded but sometimes occam's razor can save you some time.
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How many people have T cell immunity from prior coronaviruses? This is important because it lowers the total number of infections needed to reach herd immunity.
Does anyone know?
There’s no data for that. And it’s not clear that it would be relevant anyway.
There have only been limited studies on coronavirus immunity, so no ironclad statements can be made. But the limited data they have has lead researchers to believe that there’s a good likelihood that coronavirus immunity wears off.
Oops! There is data. From the British medical Journal. You're correct that no ironclad statements can be made. And T-cell immunity doesn't wear off. I should have looked before I posted
Data on T-cell immunity - ( New Window )
none of those personal conditions are contagious and you taking those drugs or not has no bearing on others outside your family (directly).
Deciding not to take a vaccine in favor of eating well, taking supplements and praying is not a well researched opinion.
Critical thinking should be applauded but sometimes occam's razor can save you some time.
thankfully i haven't had anything like a flu for many years and i never took a shot, and i decline to take one now. i don't "pray" not to get the flu. i used it as an one example of means to de-stress, do whatever the fuck you want. and i don't need to be fucking lectured about how to protect mine or anyone else's family. really, i tried to be nice.
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How many people have T cell immunity from prior coronaviruses? This is important because it lowers the total number of infections needed to reach herd immunity.
Does anyone know?
There’s no data for that. And it’s not clear that it would be relevant anyway.
There have only been limited studies on coronavirus immunity, so no ironclad statements can be made. But the limited data they have has lead researchers to believe that there’s a good likelihood that coronavirus immunity wears off.
Some recent studies suggest that antibody levels recede sooner than expected. I’m not sure that means that immunity wears off. Like you said (maybe not about this but still appropriate) there’s no data for that.
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between drugs for personal conditions like restless leg syndrome or ulcerative colitis or even depression (like you see so often on TV) and a vaccine for infectious disease which I never see on TV. The only vaccine i see on TV is for HPV and in that case - critical think away.
none of those personal conditions are contagious and you taking those drugs or not has no bearing on others outside your family (directly).
Deciding not to take a vaccine in favor of eating well, taking supplements and praying is not a well researched opinion.
Critical thinking should be applauded but sometimes occam's razor can save you some time.
thankfully i haven't had anything like a flu for many years and i never took a shot, and i decline to take one now. i don't "pray" not to get the flu. i used it as an one example of means to de-stress, do whatever the fuck you want. and i don't need to be fucking lectured about how to protect mine or anyone else's family. really, i tried to be nice.
I guess, Like for most things in a free country, you can do whatever you want. But choose for yourself and take
Your own advice. Beyond saying being healthy is generally better than not, being healthy, don’t pitch anything but actually
Medicine (or in this case vaccination) as being anything other than emotionally comforting as opposed to being an actual flu
Preventative. Purveying Misinformation does or should fall on the list of things not to do whatever the hell you want.
IMO
I think the messaging on flu vaccines has been really poorly promoted. It's not all about you. It can help lessen the severity and prevent the spread to at risk people- particularly young children who cannot get it. Not to be too dramatic but it can literally save babies and young childrens lives.
For the life of me I will never understand people's steadfast refusal to get it.
For the life of me I will never understand people's steadfast refusal to get it.
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For the life of me I will never understand people's steadfast refusal to get it.
Selfishness, laziness, avoiding an unpleasant experience and vulnerability to conspiracy theories
And don’t forget the Autism . Nobody wants to get the Autism
.
I agree with you that we have a health crisis in this country. Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, you name it. It's shameful. But you're creating a false choice. We can live well AND get the flu vaccine to prevent infection, mitigate the contagion, and protect vulnerable people. They are not mutually exclusive.
And spouting anti-vaxxer tropes that losing weight/exercising is all you need to do to stop the flu, and parroting lies about vaccines being a Big Pharma profit scheme do not help anyone. All it does now is spreads two things: disinformation AND the flu.
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with "Sweden is a disaster" is that it's maybe not quite how the Swedish view it. They never shut down.
People will criticize these graphs, and try and qualify things a certain way, but at the end of the day I just don't trust any media source right now not to politicize this pandemic and to focus on the most negative and fear mongering aspect and I feel like they deserve that.
Do you have charts comparing Sweden's closest neighbors?
This one has Denmark. I haven't seen Norway or Finland or anywhere else in Scandinavia. Not sure how relevant though since I'm not clear on what measures those other countries took.
I agree with you that we have a health crisis in this country. Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, you name it. It's shameful. But you're creating a false choice. We can live well AND get the flu vaccine to prevent infection, mitigate the contagion, and protect vulnerable people. They are not mutually exclusive.
And spouting anti-vaxxer tropes that losing weight/exercising is all you need to do to stop the flu, and parroting lies about vaccines being a Big Pharma profit scheme do not help anyone. All it does now is spreads two things: disinformation AND the flu.
Bravo. Some of you have more patience than I do. I tuned out earlier. Some battles are left unfought. My blood pressure might go up and then my recliner might give me the flu.