Russel 14 interceptions 16 fumbles
Jones 19 interceptions 23 fumbles
I like the kid, I really do. I think he can play in this league but god damn he’s a turnover machine. I don’t know if this is gonna be fixable. He shows us glimpses of brilliance but you’re just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Gun to my head, I don’t think he’s the guy to lead us back to the promise land. I hope he proves me wrong!
4 years, $134M, $110M guaranteed
Goff got that contract after these first 3 years in the NFL:
2016: 0-7 record, 54.6%, 5.3 YPA, 5TD, 7INT, 1089 yards
2017 (learning a new system): 11-4, 62.1%, 8.0, 28/7, 3804
2018: 13-3, 64.9%, 8.4, 32/12, 4688
Goff is not an elite QB, but he's alright. His second season in a new system is way better than what Jones is doing.
If we're being VERY kind to Jones and putting him at Goff's level, are we OK paying him Goff's contract after 2021? Because if we're not, then what are we doing here?
That's what I don't understand. The rush to judgement.
That's what I don't understand. The rush to judgement.
only relevant based on where the Giants pick in the draft. Kind of need to know if they have a chance at Lawrence if they should take it and trade Jones or if Jones is the guy and they could get a haul for allowing someone to trade up for Lawrence.
Some say, it's irrelevant if the Giants are picking #1 they take Lawrence. Others it's not as clear.
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and Jones may look a lot different. Why do we have to decide now, as if what he is currently is what he will always be?
That's what I don't understand. The rush to judgement.
only relevant based on where the Giants pick in the draft. Kind of need to know if they have a chance at Lawrence if they should take it and trade Jones or if Jones is the guy and they could get a haul for allowing someone to trade up for Lawrence.
Some say, it's irrelevant if the Giants are picking #1 they take Lawrence. Others it's not as clear.
Yes, if they are picking #1 overall, that definitely is a different discussion. That said, gun to your head with your house on the line, do you think it's more like the the Giants are picking in the 1-2 range, or the 4-6 range? I just don't see the Giants having the number one overall pick this year. I think the odds are against it.
That's what I don't understand. The rush to judgement.
It's not a rush to judgment; it's foresight and resource allocation - an area where this organization has failed these last three years with Eli, Beckham, and Barkley.
If Jones doesn't turn it around this season and finish strong, why stick with him? 2 years of his rookie deal will be gone with nothing to show...why give him the benefit of the doubt?
Further - is this team going to compete for a title next year? Almost certainly not. So that's 3 years from Jones's rookie deal that are gone. Why not cut bait, trade him for a 3rd rounder, draft another QB, and reset the QB rookie contract clock?
Foresight and resource allocation - let's start thinking about these decisions in that perspective instead of just hoping good shit befalls us.
He has shown some pretty talented skill along with the warts. Let's see what he is at the end of the season.
Or Bill Walsh taught him that, and in HIS SYSTEM - Walsh's.
Heck he didn't become the starting QB (was behind DeBerg) until mid year two.
Maybe Jones never gets it, but he's got a good OC now with a history of developing QBs.
He has shown some pretty talented skill along with the warts. Let's see what he is at the end of the season.
He's getting time right now. By the end of the season we'll have seen 28 starts. Unless something changes drastically in these last 9 starts, the smartest allocation of resources is to shop him. He isn't currently doing anything special that can't be reasonably assumed from a future mid round draft pick.
I hope we see drastic improvement, but there is no reason to expect it other than hope - which has been the modus operandi here for years.
And it would ruin the only day the team has any relevance anymore.
Round One of the Draft.
The consistent player comps are Ryan Tannehill, Josh McCowen, Josh Allen. I think his ceiling is Alex Smith KC.
There were concerns about turnovers, there were concerns about him needing time before playing and early success being essential to him making it. Interesting reading I think.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/daniel-jones
https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2019danieljones.php
https://sny.tv/articles/scouting-report-for-nfl-draft-prospect-daniel-jones-do-giants-nab-him-at-no-17
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/daniel-jones-nfl-draft-profile-everything-to-know-about-team-fits-strengths-and-more/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2823982-daniel-jones-nfl-draft-2019-scouting-report-for-new-york-giants-pick
https://247sports.com/college/duke/Article/Daniel-Jones-Giants-draft-reaction-NFL-scouts-executives-like-pick-Duke-134112704/
https://www.thephinsider.com/2019/4/21/18509816/miami-dolphins-draft-targets-2019-profile-nfl-draft-daniel-jones-duke-qb
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/17/film-room-scouting-report-daniel-jones-duke
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and let it breathe a little. I'm not talking about anything else, just Jones.
He has shown some pretty talented skill along with the warts. Let's see what he is at the end of the season.
He's getting time right now. By the end of the season we'll have seen 28 starts. Unless something changes drastically in these last 9 starts, the smartest allocation of resources is to shop him. He isn't currently doing anything special that can't be reasonably assumed from a future mid round draft pick.
I hope we see drastic improvement, but there is no reason to expect it other than hope - which has been the modus operandi here for years.
If the Giants finish 4-12 (I think that’s a fair assessment) with Jones maintaining the same level of play the rest of the year, I’d find it hard to believe there wouldn’t be better options in the draft. We heard the Giants carefully scouted Herbert even this year.
I’m surprised there isn’t more frustration with Jones. We were all pissed at Engram for the drop last week, but I was just as pissed off with the fumble loss TD in the Dallas game. That fumble flipped the game and ultimately cost the Giants the game.
I get the OL stinks, but it’s still the responsibility of the QB to hold onto the ball. I’m tired of the excuses on the turnovers. The turnovers are happening at an alarming rate.
Justin Herbert 2020 weeks 1-7 (5 starts - 184 attempts) - 65%, 1,542 yards (8.4 y/a), 12td/3int
Herbert has been historically excellent (on par with Mahomes) but last year Daniel Jones wasn't that far behind. His 16 game pace was 30+ TDs and 4k yards after all, with basically the same group of receivers he has this year. https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/3917792/type/nfl/year/2019 - ( New Window )
With all due respect, that difference is YPA is significant. And shouldn't be overlooked.
Have you seen Herbert play, btw? Not being patronizing, but he's making throws that are upper class. The ball is getting there in a hurry and in some tight windows. It's very impressive.
The consistent player comps are Ryan Tannehill, Josh McCowen, Josh Allen. I think his ceiling is Alex Smith KC.
There were concerns about turnovers, there were concerns about him needing time before playing and early success being essential to him making it. Interesting reading I think.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/daniel-jones
https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2019danieljones.php
https://sny.tv/articles/scouting-report-for-nfl-draft-prospect-daniel-jones-do-giants-nab-him-at-no-17
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/daniel-jones-nfl-draft-profile-everything-to-know-about-team-fits-strengths-and-more/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2823982-daniel-jones-nfl-draft-2019-scouting-report-for-new-york-giants-pick
https://247sports.com/college/duke/Article/Daniel-Jones-Giants-draft-reaction-NFL-scouts-executives-like-pick-Duke-134112704/
https://www.thephinsider.com/2019/4/21/18509816/miami-dolphins-draft-targets-2019-profile-nfl-draft-daniel-jones-duke-qb
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/17/film-room-scouting-report-daniel-jones-duke
Does Covid causing him to be unable to practice with teammates as much as normal?
Would ZERO preseason games matter?
How about experiencing more pressure than anyone else in the sport?
How about an entire new coaching staff and a completely different offense?
Losing your best offensive player?
Receivers with the worst separation in the league?
Does any of that matter at all or just no biggie?
If the Giants finish 4-12 (I think that’s a fair assessment) with Jones maintaining the same level of play the rest of the year, I’d find it hard to believe there wouldn’t be better options in the draft. We heard the Giants carefully scouted Herbert even this year.
I’m surprised there isn’t more frustration with Jones. We were all pissed at Engram for the drop last week, but I was just as pissed off with the fumble loss TD in the Dallas game. That fumble flipped the game and ultimately cost the Giants the game.
I get the OL stinks, but it’s still the responsibility of the QB to hold onto the ball. I’m tired of the excuses on the turnovers. The turnovers are happening at an alarming rate.
Are you also tired of our Left Tackle Leading the league in pressures allowed, by an almost historic margin?? LT is a premier position for a reason, you just can’t ignore it, especially when you use a strip sack from the blind side to make your point.
4 years, $134M, $110M guaranteed
Goff got that contract after these first 3 years in the NFL:
2016: 0-7 record, 54.6%, 5.3 YPA, 5TD, 7INT, 1089 yards
2017 (learning a new system): 11-4, 62.1%, 8.0, 28/7, 3804
2018: 13-3, 64.9%, 8.4, 32/12, 4688
Goff is not an elite QB, but he's alright. His second season in a new system is way better than what Jones is doing.
If we're being VERY kind to Jones and putting him at Goff's level, are we OK paying him Goff's contract after 2021? Because if we're not, then what are we doing here?
Just an aside to this...Goff is one tough SOB in the pocket. When he was at Cal his final season, he made some of the most amazing throws. Sonny Dykes's offense - the height of minimum to zero protection - was getting Goff killed. But Goff would hang in there, go through his reads, and deliver the throw
I don't think he's a great talent overall - his arm is slightly above average, decent wheels, etc - but he still hangs in the pocket and waits for the play to develop. So to an earlier point you made, that is not a quality that Jones current possesses.
I get you're desperate for Jones to be a really good QB.
That doesn't make him one and if you watch Burrow and Herbert every week who are ROOKIES dealing with all the excuses you're making for Jones you'll see why people who watch more than the Giants games are ready to move on.
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WTF has happened to this board....
Oh, stop. This team has 10 wins over the past three seasons and some fans keep defending them.
You're what happened to this board.
Look my butthurt stalker is back...LOL
I don't think the Alex Smith comp is correct. Perhaps that is his upside, but Smith is a disciplined, accurate QB who doesn't get easily flustered. Right now Jones is none of those things. Right now Jones is very poor with flashes of good play and is more similar to Trubisky, Mariota or Osweiler, imo. He needs to take a step up to be compared to actual, successful QBs.
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Daniel Jones 2019 weeks 1-8 (6 starts - 243 attempts) - 61%, 1,561 yards (6.4 ypa), 14td/5int
Justin Herbert 2020 weeks 1-7 (5 starts - 184 attempts) - 65%, 1,542 yards (8.4 y/a), 12td/3int
Herbert has been historically excellent (on par with Mahomes) but last year Daniel Jones wasn't that far behind. His 16 game pace was 30+ TDs and 4k yards after all, with basically the same group of receivers he has this year. https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/3917792/type/nfl/year/2019 - ( New Window )
With all due respect, that difference is YPA is significant. And shouldn't be overlooked.
Have you seen Herbert play, btw? Not being patronizing, but he's making throws that are upper class. The ball is getting there in a hurry and in some tight windows. It's very impressive.
I've seen almost every game Herbert has played so far (live in CA and as a former Dak owner in FF he's now my starting QB). he has looked as good as a QB can look (rookie or not). I was not a big Herbert fan as a draft prospect and as much as an opinion can be shifted in 5 or 6 games he's done it.
My point was simply Jones' year last season wasn't too far behind with inferior weapons. Remember Engram + Shepard missed most of his starts last year. Saquon missed half of them and wasn't himself until the last few games. And still Jones was on pace for 30 touchdowns with a rookie in Slayton, an aging Tate, and Kaden Smith off waivers being his 3 leading receivers most weeks.
That's a far cry from Keenan Allen who has been excellent as usual, Hunter Henry would be one of the better all around TE's in football when healthy, and Mike Williams who makes acrobatic catches every game even if he hasn't put it all together yet. Even Guyton has even added a deep dimension.
Jones is having a sophmore slump but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, especially since he's shown progress the last few weeks. Garrett's system has left a lot to be desired - especially his usage of Engram and Tate relative to where they were successful last year (and as evidenced last Thursday).
It would be nice if we could just have some consistency in these discussions realizing that guys like Mahomes, Wilson, and Lamar Jackson benefitted greatly by stepping on the field for teams that were already very strong around them.
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In comment 15026301 Eric on Li said:
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Daniel Jones 2019 weeks 1-8 (6 starts - 243 attempts) - 61%, 1,561 yards (6.4 ypa), 14td/5int
Justin Herbert 2020 weeks 1-7 (5 starts - 184 attempts) - 65%, 1,542 yards (8.4 y/a), 12td/3int
Herbert has been historically excellent (on par with Mahomes) but last year Daniel Jones wasn't that far behind. His 16 game pace was 30+ TDs and 4k yards after all, with basically the same group of receivers he has this year. https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/3917792/type/nfl/year/2019 - ( New Window )
With all due respect, that difference is YPA is significant. And shouldn't be overlooked.
Have you seen Herbert play, btw? Not being patronizing, but he's making throws that are upper class. The ball is getting there in a hurry and in some tight windows. It's very impressive.
I've seen almost every game Herbert has played so far (live in CA and as a former Dak owner in FF he's now my starting QB). he has looked as good as a QB can look (rookie or not). I was not a big Herbert fan as a draft prospect and as much as an opinion can be shifted in 5 or 6 games he's done it.
My point was simply Jones' year last season wasn't too far behind with inferior weapons. Remember Engram + Shepard missed most of his starts last year. Saquon missed half of them and wasn't himself until the last few games. And still Jones was on pace for 30 touchdowns with a rookie in Slayton, an aging Tate, and Kaden Smith off waivers being his 3 leading receivers most weeks.
That's a far cry from Keenan Allen who has been excellent as usual, Hunter Henry would be one of the better all around TE's in football when healthy, and Mike Williams who makes acrobatic catches every game even if he hasn't put it all together yet. Even Guyton has even added a deep dimension.
Jones is having a sophmore slump but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, especially since he's shown progress the last few weeks. Garrett's system has left a lot to be desired - especially his usage of Engram and Tate relative to where they were successful last year (and as evidenced last Thursday).
Jonbes is VERY FAR BEHIND Herbert. I challenge you to find a single reputable analyst that would place these two players in the same class right now. You are dreaming if you don;t think there is an enormous gulf between them. It is plain and simple. Greg Cosell for instance is gushing over Herbert, he loves his size, his arm talent, his toughness, his movement, his decisiveness and bravery making tough throws. I can't even find Cosell analysis of Jones this season and I have listened to every podcast he has done. And he has discussed, Darnold, Minshew, Kyler, Lamar, Allen, Burrow, even Haskins IN DEPTH. Jones is an after thought right now. And Herbert is the hottest QB commodity since Mahomes.
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In comment 15026402 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15026301 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Daniel Jones 2019 weeks 1-8 (6 starts - 243 attempts) - 61%, 1,561 yards (6.4 ypa), 14td/5int
Justin Herbert 2020 weeks 1-7 (5 starts - 184 attempts) - 65%, 1,542 yards (8.4 y/a), 12td/3int
Herbert has been historically excellent (on par with Mahomes) but last year Daniel Jones wasn't that far behind. His 16 game pace was 30+ TDs and 4k yards after all, with basically the same group of receivers he has this year. https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/3917792/type/nfl/year/2019 - ( New Window )
With all due respect, that difference is YPA is significant. And shouldn't be overlooked.
Have you seen Herbert play, btw? Not being patronizing, but he's making throws that are upper class. The ball is getting there in a hurry and in some tight windows. It's very impressive.
I've seen almost every game Herbert has played so far (live in CA and as a former Dak owner in FF he's now my starting QB). he has looked as good as a QB can look (rookie or not). I was not a big Herbert fan as a draft prospect and as much as an opinion can be shifted in 5 or 6 games he's done it.
My point was simply Jones' year last season wasn't too far behind with inferior weapons. Remember Engram + Shepard missed most of his starts last year. Saquon missed half of them and wasn't himself until the last few games. And still Jones was on pace for 30 touchdowns with a rookie in Slayton, an aging Tate, and Kaden Smith off waivers being his 3 leading receivers most weeks.
That's a far cry from Keenan Allen who has been excellent as usual, Hunter Henry would be one of the better all around TE's in football when healthy, and Mike Williams who makes acrobatic catches every game even if he hasn't put it all together yet. Even Guyton has even added a deep dimension.
Jones is having a sophmore slump but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, especially since he's shown progress the last few weeks. Garrett's system has left a lot to be desired - especially his usage of Engram and Tate relative to where they were successful last year (and as evidenced last Thursday).
Jonbes is VERY FAR BEHIND Herbert. I challenge you to find a single reputable analyst that would place these two players in the same class right now. You are dreaming if you don;t think there is an enormous gulf between them. It is plain and simple. Greg Cosell for instance is gushing over Herbert, he loves his size, his arm talent, his toughness, his movement, his decisiveness and bravery making tough throws. I can't even find Cosell analysis of Jones this season and I have listened to every podcast he has done. And he has discussed, Darnold, Minshew, Kyler, Lamar, Allen, Burrow, even Haskins IN DEPTH. Jones is an after thought right now. And Herbert is the hottest QB commodity since Mahomes.
Herbert has looked very good but we only have a 3 game window to base that on. If you look at Jones's first year he was every bit as good.
Let's give it a full season and then we have enough to do a real comparison. I would love to see Jones behind an avg O-Line with a true #1 WR. I believe all of us would be more than happy with what we see if that ever happens
@DDuggan21
·
3h
This, from the Giants, is ... something: In the NFL’s 101-season history, more than 1,800 players have 75 or more rushing attempts. Only one player among them has a per-carry average of at least 7.6 yards. That player is Daniel Jones.
@DanSchneierNFL
·
6h
Before you give up on Daniel Jones, did you know the #Giants have PFF's dead last (Andrew Thomas) and second-to-last (Cam Fleming) graded OTs in pass pro (of 57 OTs who qualify)?
They combine to allow 57 pressures in 7 games.
The #Browns entire Oline has allowed 40 pressures.
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Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
3h
This, from the Giants, is ... something: In the NFL’s 101-season history, more than 1,800 players have 75 or more rushing attempts. Only one player among them has a per-carry average of at least 7.6 yards. That player is Daniel Jones.
And we have an OC that doesn't design the offense around that strength.
Excuses and all.
Jones reached a top speed of 21 MPH the other night, which eclipses Lamar Jackson's best, and better than ANY QB in the NFL since 2018.
The next part is from Giants.com:
Lamar Jackson (Baltimore) - 1,552
Kyler Murray (Arizona) - 981
Josh Allen (Buffalo) - 714
Russell Wilson (Seattle) - 579
Daniel Jones (Giants) - 575
Jones leads the Giants with 296 rushing yards on 31 carries, a 9.5-yard average that is the highest by an NFL quarterback with that many attempts since 1992, when Pro Football Hall of Famer Steve Young averaged 9.6 yards (297 yards through 31 carries) for the San Francisco 49ers. The last NFL player to maintain such a high average at this statistical juncture was wide receiver Tavon Austin, who gained 303 yards on his first 31 carries (9.8-yard avg.) for the 2015 St. Louis Rams.
More from Giants.com:
Fran Tarkenton (1967-68) - 41
Charlie Conerly (1948-49) - 36
Y.A. Tittle (1961-62) - 33
Earl Morrall (1965-66) - 29
Daniel Jones (2019-20) - 29
A lot more statistical tidbits here on Giants.com if you're interested:
Link - ( New Window )
Excuses and all.
I don't think Jones sucks. I think he's got some good and some bad, is unlikely to ever be great, and thus the team should be looking to maximize what's left of the asset and move on.
As for the OC, he sucks.
I don't think the Alex Smith comp is correct. Perhaps that is his upside, but Smith is a disciplined, accurate QB who doesn't get easily flustered. Right now Jones is none of those things. Right now Jones is very poor with flashes of good play and is more similar to Trubisky, Mariota or Osweiler, imo. He needs to take a step up to be compared to actual, successful QBs.
Agree. His ceiling is Alex Smith or Ryan Tannehill. Ironically, I think Jones is exactly what Getty had in mind when he talked about QB hell. There’s people here who say Jones flashes greatness and I just don’t see that. I see Jones make some nice throws every game but, most guys in the NFL do too.
That's been established early. We've moved beyond that.
No worries, I'm going to start a new thread to get off this one. I don't want those stats buried.
yea what Britt said. Jamarcus is an epic bust and he's on a short list of busts that big. Now we're comparing Jones to Alex Smith and Justin Herbert.
Too bad it generated revenue for the website and got people talking. I guess I can stop positing and this place can be as quiet as a funeral home. I was always told Giants fans are a box and wine type crowd and this place really shows that.
Okay then.
These stats are extremely relevant and very much NOT in isolation as people seem to want to do.
Okay then.
Yet your fat ass is still here chirping away at me. Again.
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Generated revenue??
Okay then.
Yet your fat ass is still here chirping away at me. Again.
Just giving my two cents, Pal.
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JaMarcus Russell is one of the biggest busts in NFL history. Jones, for all his faults, is a million times better than Russell.
Too bad it generated revenue for the website and got people talking. I guess I can stop positing and this place can be as quiet as a funeral home. I was always told Giants fans are a box and wine type crowd and this place really shows that.
Go ahead, stop posting, if you can’t handle criticism. We’ll all just have to struggle to get by without you
Users consistently portray this year as if players were not able to do anything.
Tweet - ( New Window )
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WTF has happened to this board....
Oh, stop. This team has 10 wins over the past three seasons and some fans keep defending them.
You're what happened to this board.
Boom!!!
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WTF has happened to this board....
The real problem is that we now have a full generation of posters who learned their football from playing Madden then honed their skills in Fantasy Leagues ... The virus has them ‘working from home’ with too much time on their hands so when they’re done playing with themselves they dream up shit like this.
I can almost guarantee that I'm older than you. I'm definitely smarter than you. And you're a dipshit xenophobe that shouldn't be making generalizations about anyone.
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In comment 15025882 montanagiant said:
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WTF has happened to this board....
Oh, stop. This team has 10 wins over the past three seasons and some fans keep defending them.
You're what happened to this board.
Look my butthurt stalker is back...LOL
You might want to learn some common turns of phrase before you start the namecalling. You might even want to try to hold your own in a debate with me before you start calling me a staker. But nice job trying to punch above your weight.
Maybe start with some Dr. Seuss books first?
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In comment 15026339 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15025882 montanagiant said:
Quote:
WTF has happened to this board....
Oh, stop. This team has 10 wins over the past three seasons and some fans keep defending them.
You're what happened to this board.
Look my butthurt stalker is back...LOL
You might want to learn some common turns of phrase before you start the namecalling. You might even want to try to hold your own in a debate with me before you start calling me a staker. But nice job trying to punch above your weight.
Maybe start with some Dr. Seuss books first?
Go fuck yourself loser, Last time I debated you you got your ass handed to you by myself and multiple others with some idiotic argument you had months ago, and then you ran away like a little bitch because your fragile ego couldn't handle it.
Ever since then you run around taking potshots and running away again when I call out your childish acts. Do us all a favor and stop letting your insecure ego rule how you post on here. You're not the self-called expert you think you are. You're just another couch sitting putz like all of us without any special insight into what the Giants are doing.
If it is so vital to you to think you're important on here then you need much more help than what BBI can provide.
Now go away little boy.