I remember he had some problems with Thomas, but thought he would be a Gettleman pick. I think he had some injury concerns with Becton. I do not remember how he rated the other two, or who he gave the highest numerical grade to.
and work with him in the offseason to clean it up. His technique issues are not something you can fix in season. It's not a tough fix, but I'm not sure its something you can fix in season unless you want to get DJ killed.
the pre-draft consensus was that Thomas was the most game-ready OLT available. Bechton was seen as a project, and Wills and Wirfs played mostly RT. Thomas was a 2-year starter at OLT in the toughest conference in the country.
I thought Thomas was the 3rd best OT available (I thought Bechton had too much of a bust factor), but I completely understood why DG chose him. And, as has been cited here, the plan was to start AT at RT this year.
At the end of the day, he isn't the reason we're 1-6. I'd look at how DG has completely ignored the WR position, how he whiffed on multiple FA signings, and trading draft picks.
the pre-draft consensus was that Thomas was the most game-ready OLT available. Bechton was seen as a project, and Wills and Wirfs played mostly RT. Thomas was a 2-year starter at OLT in the toughest conference in the country.
I thought Thomas was the 3rd best OT available (I thought Bechton had too much of a bust factor), but I completely understood why DG chose him. And, as has been cited here, the plan was to start AT at RT this year.
At the end of the day, he isn't the reason we're 1-6. I'd look at how DG has completely ignored the WR position, how he whiffed on multiple FA signings, and trading draft picks.
I tend to agree with you on the DG FA signings a bit. But he had to choose which holes to fill/correct. CB/SS, LB, OL, WR....all places that were substandard.
Yes Thomas is part of the problem as is the line. But he is probably part of the solution, down the road.
RE: RE: why would the giants use the 4 overall pick
When you watch the tape, he almost always gets beaten to the inside, i.e. his right side, because of leverage problems. At RT, he might get away with this, because he might shove the defender deeper outside the pocket. At left tackle, his tendency allows defenders to collapse the pocket. At best, it forces Jones to run to his left, which of course makes passing more difficult.
when BBI called Nick Gates the worst center they've ever seen. Wait, that was week 1 of 2020.
gates was a UDFA, the giants swing guard/tackle, moved to a position he'd never played before at any level, and has gotten better every week to the point that he is now arguably the best player on the OL.
thomas was drafted 4th overall, supposedly NFL-ready, and is playing the same position he played in college. he is presently the worst OLT in the league and has gotten worse every week.
comparing gates to thomas and mischaracterizing BBIs collective reaction to gates to make a point about "patience" ignores the fact that we are halfway through the season and thomas looks awful and has not shown improvement and in fact has regressed. he looks far worse than flowers did his rookie year.
when BBI called Nick Gates the worst center they've ever seen. Wait, that was week 1 of 2020.
gates was a UDFA, the giants swing guard/tackle, moved to a position he'd never played before at any level, and has gotten better every week to the point that he is now arguably the best player on the OL.
thomas was drafted 4th overall, supposedly NFL-ready, and is playing the same position he played in college. he is presently the worst OLT in the league and has gotten worse every week.
comparing gates to thomas and mischaracterizing BBIs collective reaction to gates to make a point about "patience" ignores the fact that we are halfway through the season and thomas looks awful and has not shown improvement and in fact has regressed. he looks far worse than flowers did his rookie year.
Very well said.
Kudos to Sy for anticipating the problems Thomas could face. And if you read further down in Sy's ranking, he pretty much nailed Peart, and why he thought Gettleman would draft him...
Thomas can't even stay in front of his man for a split second.
At some point, you'd hope his instincts and natural athletic abilities take over, I don't care if right now he doesn't know his right hand from his left.
It's also concerning he's playing the same position he played in college. He was picked the highest and definitely playing the worst. Given this organization's recent draft performance, what makes you so confident it's a matter of breaking his techniques down and building it back up? Why would you draft him that high if you knew this going in?
There's not a single guy on the line with that quality.
That's objectively not true. Thomas, Hernandez, and probably Gates are all plus run blockers. People think because they see the RB getting blown up in the backfield the offensive line sucks, when a lot of the time it's just the defense sent more guys than available blockers or it was a tight end or two that missed blocks. The over-generalizing should stop.
A few things to remember about the tackles in the draft
Wirfs and Wills played mostly (or all) RT.
Wills played for Saban and we have coaches from Bama on the staff.
We also have coaches on the staff from all over the SEC including UGA/Smart.
Becton was widely viewed as a unicorn with high risk/high reward (why 3 other teams passed him over for the 3 other OTs)
Point being Thomas was both an informed and logical pick - likely heavily influenced by direct firsthand information acquired through Judge and his coaching staff.
the pre-draft consensus was that Thomas was the most game-ready OLT available. Bechton was seen as a project, and Wills and Wirfs played mostly RT. Thomas was a 2-year starter at OLT in the toughest conference in the country.
I thought Thomas was the 3rd best OT available (I thought Bechton had too much of a bust factor), but I completely understood why DG chose him. And, as has been cited here, the plan was to start AT at RT this year.
At the end of the day, he isn't the reason we're 1-6. I'd look at how DG has completely ignored the WR position, how he whiffed on multiple FA signings, and trading draft picks.
The OLine and lack of a pass rusher are the 2 main reasons this team is 1-6. Tate, Shepard, Slayton, Engram, and Barkley are a solid enough group to make defenses respect the pass. If DJ has no time to get them the ball, that's on Gettleman.
I understand being a rookie and needing a true offseason of coaching. I also get how hard playing left tackle. But I totally disagree that most of his mistakes are mental. There are many times he gets simply blown up and dominated. This is not an UDFA. This is the 4th overall pick. I understand struggles but he should be flashing some potential which he hasn't. He looks like a train wreck out there.
Bucs really got a steal with Wirfs at 13th overall...
I understand being a rookie and needing a true offseason of coaching. I also get how hard playing left tackle. But I totally disagree that most of his mistakes are mental. There are many times he gets simply blown up and dominated. This is not an UDFA. This is the 4th overall pick. I understand struggles but he should be flashing some potential which he hasn't. He looks like a train wreck out there.
Bucs really got a steal with Wirfs at 13th overall...
It can be called mental because it is technique faults. He is not getting blown up. He is getting beaten because he bends into the defender, has a weak punch to keep the defender off his body and his steps are overreactive. Sometimes he gets it right and when he locks on, it is over.
Annoying and frustrating. How do you think he feels?
Someone posted a critique by Thomas's college coach
On what he has seen so far this year and he claimed that all the techniques Thomas was taught during college have been changed. He said Thomas was really good with his hand technique in college but it's been all over the place in the pros
STRENGTHS: Tall enough with a large frame and a strong punch. Fluid athlete who moves well for his size, can redirect and is comfortable playing in space. Shows good instincts. High motor and can finish opponents. ... AREAS OF IMPROVEMENT: On the leaner side and will need to add functional strength. Lacks an explosive first step. Takes false steps at times in pass pro. Needs work on his technique vs. loose alignment. ... BOTTOM LINE: Thomas is a big, strong offensive tackle who has lots of upside. Once he improves his technique and fills out his ample frame, we believe he has the potential to develop into a good left tackle.
Looks like he's had these poor habits/techniques on pass protection for some time...
One other thing to keep in mind regarding this team
It has to be taken into account the fact that the NFL has never had a season like this one. Extremely limited practices in pads, learning a completely new system, and no preseason games.
All of that is a huge factor this year
RE: One other thing to keep in mind regarding this team
It has to be taken into account the fact that the NFL has never had a season like this one. Extremely limited practices in pads, learning a completely new system, and no preseason games.
All of that is a huge factor this year
Yeah, but why is it that our first round pick is playing significantly worse than other first round picks? They're all playing in the same circumstances. New systems, no preseason, limited practices. Thomas has certainly been the worst of the tackles, and we're seeing two rookie QBs look very functional. A third rookie QB has been elevated to start on a 3-3 team that's in the mix to win their division because the coaches think he's ready.
This doesn't read like what you would expect to happen if there was no time for adequate preparation.
This comment about no time to prepare feels more and more like a simple excuse than anything else.
Well you have to figure in that most of the Rookies are the only ones
Having to learn a new system whereas it's our whole Offense that's learning a new system. I am definitely not thrilled with what we have seen from him and the opinion of his College coach regarding his bad techniques concerns me also.
To me, he looks like he's lost some confidence in himself but having to go against Dupree, TJ Watt, Quinn, Mack, and Ware can do that to you. Even vs the 49'ers and their depleted line he still went against a 10 sack player in Armstead.
I mean he's cone against the best the NFL can throw at you.
RE: Well you have to figure in that most of the Rookies are the only ones
Having to learn a new system whereas it's our whole Offense that's learning a new system. I am definitely not thrilled with what we have seen from him and the opinion of his College coach regarding his bad techniques concerns me also.
To me, he looks like he's lost some confidence in himself but having to go against Dupree, TJ Watt, Quinn, Mack, and Ware can do that to you. Even vs the 49'ers and their depleted line he still went against a 10 sack player in Armstead.
I mean he's cone against the best the NFL can throw at you.
His training camp was the first four games against tough edge rushers. He is struggling and has to learn. He has the desire to learn. He will learn.
RE: RE: Well you have to figure in that most of the Rookies are the only ones
Having to learn a new system whereas it's our whole Offense that's learning a new system. I am definitely not thrilled with what we have seen from him and the opinion of his College coach regarding his bad techniques concerns me also.
To me, he looks like he's lost some confidence in himself but having to go against Dupree, TJ Watt, Quinn, Mack, and Ware can do that to you. Even vs the 49'ers and their depleted line he still went against a 10 sack player in Armstead.
I mean he's cone against the best the NFL can throw at you.
His training camp was the first four games against tough edge rushers. He is struggling and has to learn. He has the desire to learn. He will learn.
There's no one in their front office that could see these flaws that were clear to other people? Thomas isn't even as good a run blocker as Sy thought and his pass protection is even worse than advertised.
I think Getty is a dinosaur and a moron. But the AT pick isn’t really something to lay at his alter of failures. AT was a consensus first rounder and consider by pretty much everyone to be the most pro ready. He was always going to be a first round pick. And he may yet be a solid NFL starter. It is truly way too soon to judge this pick.
The problem though is that Getty has so many other misses which were obviously stupid choices that many, here and in sports media, called in real time. It was always dumb to pick a RB at the overall 2, trading up for Baker, giving away draft picks for a pending UFA, crazy overreaching for Jones and on and on and on. He’s had so many failures that it seems natural to blast him for our so far disappointing first round LT. But, even if AT doesn’t work out, and we’re a long way off from knowing that, we really can’t get up Dave’s ass for the pick.
There's tape on him now, teams and players are setting him
up for the inside move. It's probably not going to get better this year, but you see it all the time with rookies that come out the gates fast and then get neutralized by their weaknesses. It's how they respond and we more than likely won't have our answer until next year when he gets a chance to really work on it.
RE: There's tape on him now, teams and players are setting him
up for the inside move. It's probably not going to get better this year, but you see it all the time with rookies that come out the gates fast and then get neutralized by their weaknesses. It's how they respond and we more than likely won't have our answer until next year when he gets a chance to really work on it.
In a general sense, I do agree that Thomas needs an off-season to work on technique and in the weight room. Remember, he is only 21 though he has played a lot of football between college and this year at LT.
However, when I saw this kid speak and the coaches comments, I get the feeling that he will do what it takes to get better and that includes this season. We just don't practice enough in the NFL anymore due to CBA.
We had 10 days "off" to get ready for the Buccaneers and I'm hedging a strong bet that Judge, Columbo and Garrett have worked on seeing what this offense "can do" and clearly "can't do" and have made some adjustments including coaching up the young guys.
I would NOT be shocked if we saw Lemiuex getting snaps this week along with Peart.
But I also think we will see some improvement from Thomas as well.
We MUST know what we have with these young lineman and be fully committed to a starting 5 for next year ELSE we must focus on OL in the draft.
I'm praying we can get lucky and draft for our top needs: ER, CB, WR and potentially OL. We have a lot of needs so if we have say the #3 pick and Fields is there perhaps we get lucky and trade down and getting still that top CB or WR that fits our system and future.
I already believe we have the QB in place as I like Jones he just doesn't have time to throw, a run game to support him, or playmakers.
RE: Seriously how can the Mara's be this incompetent
There's no one in their front office that could see these flaws that were clear to other people? Thomas isn't even as good a run blocker as Sy thought and his pass protection is even worse than advertised.
Are you ever right on anything you post...?
RE: Seriously how can the Mara's be this incompetent
There's no one in their front office that could see these flaws that were clear to other people? Thomas isn't even as good a run blocker as Sy thought and his pass protection is even worse than advertised.
Nearly every prospect has flaws listed in their draft profile. If they play well, are people questioned on why the flaws were ignored?
This kind of reference to "clear flaws" is the same ridiculousness that showed up the day after Baker's arrest. Not only were there exaggerations about the issues that were in his scouting, but then people made the leap that we should have known that work ethic questions would lead to armed robbery
Taking Thomas makes sense if you are building the team around Barkley and not Jones.
Thomas is known to be a better run blocker, according to the reports posted and Sy's thoughts. His main weakness is pass pro. If you're building around Barkley, you want to have a guy better in the run blocking first and let him develop his pass pro. You have a mobile QB in Jones, so you can take the risks hoping Thomas gets better fast.
Not saying I agree with this approach, but it appears to me anyway, this was the approach..
Draft OL Preview - ( New Window )
2020 NFL Draft OTs - ( New Window )
Sy is damn good; he was pretty prophetic on Thomas
the giants have to have the worst record with first-round draft picks of any team in the league over the last 8 years.
the giants have to have the worst record with first-round draft picks of any team in the league over the last 8 years.
Attempt to read the article. Sy says it will take patience until he can overcome it.
Patience
I thought Thomas was the 3rd best OT available (I thought Bechton had too much of a bust factor), but I completely understood why DG chose him. And, as has been cited here, the plan was to start AT at RT this year.
At the end of the day, he isn't the reason we're 1-6. I'd look at how DG has completely ignored the WR position, how he whiffed on multiple FA signings, and trading draft picks.
+1. He needs a true off-season of coaching and training. A lot of his mistakes are mental. I think we’ll see a different Thomas next season.
I thought Thomas was the 3rd best OT available (I thought Bechton had too much of a bust factor), but I completely understood why DG chose him. And, as has been cited here, the plan was to start AT at RT this year.
At the end of the day, he isn't the reason we're 1-6. I'd look at how DG has completely ignored the WR position, how he whiffed on multiple FA signings, and trading draft picks.
I tend to agree with you on the DG FA signings a bit. But he had to choose which holes to fill/correct. CB/SS, LB, OL, WR....all places that were substandard.
Yes Thomas is part of the problem as is the line. But he is probably part of the solution, down the road.
Quote:
on a LT who looks like a train wreck in pass protection, in a passing league.
the giants have to have the worst record with first-round draft picks of any team in the league over the last 8 years.
Attempt to read the article. Sy says it will take patience until he can overcome it.
Patience
Tough to expect patience from people who won't even read the entire review
gates was a UDFA, the giants swing guard/tackle, moved to a position he'd never played before at any level, and has gotten better every week to the point that he is now arguably the best player on the OL.
thomas was drafted 4th overall, supposedly NFL-ready, and is playing the same position he played in college. he is presently the worst OLT in the league and has gotten worse every week.
comparing gates to thomas and mischaracterizing BBIs collective reaction to gates to make a point about "patience" ignores the fact that we are halfway through the season and thomas looks awful and has not shown improvement and in fact has regressed. he looks far worse than flowers did his rookie year.
Quote:
when BBI called Nick Gates the worst center they've ever seen. Wait, that was week 1 of 2020.
gates was a UDFA, the giants swing guard/tackle, moved to a position he'd never played before at any level, and has gotten better every week to the point that he is now arguably the best player on the OL.
thomas was drafted 4th overall, supposedly NFL-ready, and is playing the same position he played in college. he is presently the worst OLT in the league and has gotten worse every week.
comparing gates to thomas and mischaracterizing BBIs collective reaction to gates to make a point about "patience" ignores the fact that we are halfway through the season and thomas looks awful and has not shown improvement and in fact has regressed. he looks far worse than flowers did his rookie year.
Very well said.
Kudos to Sy for anticipating the problems Thomas could face. And if you read further down in Sy's ranking, he pretty much nailed Peart, and why he thought Gettleman would draft him...
It's also concerning he's playing the same position he played in college. He was picked the highest and definitely playing the worst. Given this organization's recent draft performance, what makes you so confident it's a matter of breaking his techniques down and building it back up? Why would you draft him that high if you knew this going in?
That's objectively not true. Thomas, Hernandez, and probably Gates are all plus run blockers. People think because they see the RB getting blown up in the backfield the offensive line sucks, when a lot of the time it's just the defense sent more guys than available blockers or it was a tight end or two that missed blocks. The over-generalizing should stop.
Wills played for Saban and we have coaches from Bama on the staff.
We also have coaches on the staff from all over the SEC including UGA/Smart.
Becton was widely viewed as a unicorn with high risk/high reward (why 3 other teams passed him over for the 3 other OTs)
Point being Thomas was both an informed and logical pick - likely heavily influenced by direct firsthand information acquired through Judge and his coaching staff.
I thought Thomas was the 3rd best OT available (I thought Bechton had too much of a bust factor), but I completely understood why DG chose him. And, as has been cited here, the plan was to start AT at RT this year.
At the end of the day, he isn't the reason we're 1-6. I'd look at how DG has completely ignored the WR position, how he whiffed on multiple FA signings, and trading draft picks.
The OLine and lack of a pass rusher are the 2 main reasons this team is 1-6. Tate, Shepard, Slayton, Engram, and Barkley are a solid enough group to make defenses respect the pass. If DJ has no time to get them the ball, that's on Gettleman.
Bucs really got a steal with Wirfs at 13th overall...
Bucs really got a steal with Wirfs at 13th overall...
It can be called mental because it is technique faults. He is not getting blown up. He is getting beaten because he bends into the defender, has a weak punch to keep the defender off his body and his steps are overreactive. Sometimes he gets it right and when he locks on, it is over.
Annoying and frustrating. How do you think he feels?
Looks like he's had these poor habits/techniques on pass protection for some time...
All of that is a huge factor this year
All of that is a huge factor this year
Yeah, but why is it that our first round pick is playing significantly worse than other first round picks? They're all playing in the same circumstances. New systems, no preseason, limited practices. Thomas has certainly been the worst of the tackles, and we're seeing two rookie QBs look very functional. A third rookie QB has been elevated to start on a 3-3 team that's in the mix to win their division because the coaches think he's ready.
This doesn't read like what you would expect to happen if there was no time for adequate preparation.
This comment about no time to prepare feels more and more like a simple excuse than anything else.
To me, he looks like he's lost some confidence in himself but having to go against Dupree, TJ Watt, Quinn, Mack, and Ware can do that to you. Even vs the 49'ers and their depleted line he still went against a 10 sack player in Armstead.
I mean he's cone against the best the NFL can throw at you.
To me, he looks like he's lost some confidence in himself but having to go against Dupree, TJ Watt, Quinn, Mack, and Ware can do that to you. Even vs the 49'ers and their depleted line he still went against a 10 sack player in Armstead.
I mean he's cone against the best the NFL can throw at you.
Quote:
Having to learn a new system whereas it's our whole Offense that's learning a new system. I am definitely not thrilled with what we have seen from him and the opinion of his College coach regarding his bad techniques concerns me also.
To me, he looks like he's lost some confidence in himself but having to go against Dupree, TJ Watt, Quinn, Mack, and Ware can do that to you. Even vs the 49'ers and their depleted line he still went against a 10 sack player in Armstead.
I mean he's cone against the best the NFL can throw at you.
His training camp was the first four games against tough edge rushers. He is struggling and has to learn. He has the desire to learn. He will learn.
Exactly!
The problem though is that Getty has so many other misses which were obviously stupid choices that many, here and in sports media, called in real time. It was always dumb to pick a RB at the overall 2, trading up for Baker, giving away draft picks for a pending UFA, crazy overreaching for Jones and on and on and on. He’s had so many failures that it seems natural to blast him for our so far disappointing first round LT. But, even if AT doesn’t work out, and we’re a long way off from knowing that, we really can’t get up Dave’s ass for the pick.
However, when I saw this kid speak and the coaches comments, I get the feeling that he will do what it takes to get better and that includes this season. We just don't practice enough in the NFL anymore due to CBA.
We had 10 days "off" to get ready for the Buccaneers and I'm hedging a strong bet that Judge, Columbo and Garrett have worked on seeing what this offense "can do" and clearly "can't do" and have made some adjustments including coaching up the young guys.
I would NOT be shocked if we saw Lemiuex getting snaps this week along with Peart.
But I also think we will see some improvement from Thomas as well.
We MUST know what we have with these young lineman and be fully committed to a starting 5 for next year ELSE we must focus on OL in the draft.
I'm praying we can get lucky and draft for our top needs: ER, CB, WR and potentially OL. We have a lot of needs so if we have say the #3 pick and Fields is there perhaps we get lucky and trade down and getting still that top CB or WR that fits our system and future.
I already believe we have the QB in place as I like Jones he just doesn't have time to throw, a run game to support him, or playmakers.
Are you ever right on anything you post...?
Nearly every prospect has flaws listed in their draft profile. If they play well, are people questioned on why the flaws were ignored?
This kind of reference to "clear flaws" is the same ridiculousness that showed up the day after Baker's arrest. Not only were there exaggerations about the issues that were in his scouting, but then people made the leap that we should have known that work ethic questions would lead to armed robbery
Thomas is known to be a better run blocker, according to the reports posted and Sy's thoughts. His main weakness is pass pro. If you're building around Barkley, you want to have a guy better in the run blocking first and let him develop his pass pro. You have a mobile QB in Jones, so you can take the risks hoping Thomas gets better fast.
Not saying I agree with this approach, but it appears to me anyway, this was the approach..