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Some cool Daniel Jones Stats from Giants.com

Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:08 pm
For those of you that don't think he's a bum. Don't want these to get buried in the other thread:

Quote:
In the NFL's 101-season history, more than 1,800 players have 75 or more rushing attempts. Only one player among them has a per-carry average of at least 7.6 yards. That player is Daniel Jones.

In his two seasons as the Giants' quarterback, Jones has rushed for 575 yards on 76 carries, a 7.56-yard average that the Elias Sports Bureau said is the highest ever by a player with that many attempts.


Quote:
Jones is third among NFL quarterbacks in rushing yardage this season, behind Kyler Murray (437 yards) and Lamar Jackson (346). His 575 rushing yards since the start of the 2019 season rank fifth among quarterbacks:

Lamar Jackson (Baltimore) - 1,552
Kyler Murray (Arizona) - 981
Josh Allen (Buffalo) - 714
Russell Wilson (Seattle) - 579
Daniel Jones (Giants) - 575


Quote:
Jones leads the Giants with 296 rushing yards on 31 carries, a 9.5-yard average that is the highest by an NFL quarterback with that many attempts since 1992, when Pro Football Hall of Famer Steve Young averaged 9.6 yards (297 yards through 31 carries) for the San Francisco 49ers. The last NFL player to maintain such a high average at this statistical juncture was wide receiver Tavon Austin, who gained 303 yards on his first 31 carries (9.8-yard avg.) for the 2015 St. Louis Rams.


Quote:
Jones' 296 rushing yards are the most by a Giants quarterback through seven games since Frank Filchock ran for 324 yards in 1946.

The second-year pro has already exceeded his rookie total of 279 yards and needs just 11 more to set the quarterback franchise rushing record in the Super Bowl era:

1967 Fran Tarkenton - 306
1968 Fran Tarkenton - 301
2020 Daniel Jones - 296
2019 Daniel Jones - 279


Quote:
Jones also threw two touchdown passes against the Eagles, raising his two-year total to 29. That is tied for the fourth-highest total by a quarterback in his first 20 games with the Giants:

Fran Tarkenton (1967-68) - 41
Charlie Conerly (1948-49) - 36
Y.A. Tittle (1961-62) - 33
Earl Morrall (1965-66) - 29
Daniel Jones (2019-20) - 29


Lots more here, on Giants.com:



Link - ( New Window )
And let's not forget this....  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:09 pm : link
Jones reached a top speed of 21 MPH the other night, which eclipses Lamar Jackson's best, and better than ANY QB in the NFL since 2018.
Guess I'll add this as well:  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:12 pm : link
Quote:
Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
6h
Before you give up on Daniel Jones, did you know the #Giants have PFF's dead last (Andrew Thomas) and second-to-last (Cam Fleming) graded OTs in pass pro (of 57 OTs who qualify)?
They combine to allow 57 pressures in 7 games.
The #Browns entire Oline has allowed 40 pressures.
I really hope Thomas is at least respectable..  
Sean : 10/27/2020 8:14 pm : link
Another premier pick on a bust at LT would be a disaster.
RE: I really hope Thomas is at least respectable..  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:15 pm : link
In comment 15026682 Sean said:
Quote:
Another premier pick on a bust at LT would be a disaster.


Give him time. Give Jones time.
I was super high on DJ coming into this season.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/27/2020 8:15 pm : link
And I still think he's a QB we can win with, but-and it's a HUGE but-the turnovers...we can't gloss over them. It's just alarming. And I know the counterargument is 'Well, P. Manning had a lot of TOs too at the start of his career'. But Manning is one of the best QBs of all time & I don't think any of us see Jones being on the Mt. Rushmore of NFL QBs.

I thought he played well on Thursday & if Engram-that bum-makes that catch, we're 2-5 & the atmosphere around here is totally different, as we'd be in contention in an awful division/finally beat the Eagles.
Do you think the Ravens...  
bw in dc : 10/27/2020 8:16 pm : link
would trade us LJax straight up for Jones?
RE: Guess I'll add this as well:  
GiantsRage2007 : 10/27/2020 8:16 pm : link
In comment 15026680 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
6h
Before you give up on Daniel Jones, did you know the #Giants have PFF's dead last (Andrew Thomas) and second-to-last (Cam Fleming) graded OTs in pass pro (of 57 OTs who qualify)?
They combine to allow 57 pressures in 7 games.
The #Browns entire Oline has allowed 40 pressures.




So if we benched Thomas and Fleming, and literally put anyone in those 2 spots, statistically (PFF) speaking, they couldn’t be worse?

Jesus.
RE: Do you think the Ravens...  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:16 pm : link
In comment 15026686 bw in dc said:
Quote:
would trade us LJax straight up for Jones?


Do you think Jones would rather be on the Ravens?
RE: RE: Guess I'll add this as well:  
81_Great_Dane : 10/27/2020 8:19 pm : link
In comment 15026687 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
So if we benched Thomas and Fleming, and literally put anyone in those 2 spots, statistically (PFF) speaking, they couldn’t be worse?

Jesus.
Well, no, it doesn't work that way, but bottom line: "Jesus" is right.
I will say this about DJ...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/27/2020 8:21 pm : link
He's playing behind a horrific line & guys they're pulling off the street. I feel like this when I see some of our skill players:
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Do you think the Ravens...  
Chris684 : 10/27/2020 8:23 pm : link
In comment 15026686 bw in dc said:
Quote:
would trade us LJax straight up for Jones?


They’re a playoff team with either one and likely have a better shot to win in the postseason with Jones who actually knows how to throw the ball.
RE: RE: Do you think the Ravens...  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:25 pm : link
In comment 15026694 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15026686 bw in dc said:


Quote:


would trade us LJax straight up for Jones?



They’re a playoff team with either one and likely have a better shot to win in the postseason with Jones who actually knows how to throw the ball.


Don't take the bait and let it get into a Lamar vs. Jones pissing contest.

Let those stats marinate. They speak for themselves.
RE: RE: Do you think the Ravens...  
Go Terps : 10/27/2020 8:28 pm : link
In comment 15026694 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15026686 bw in dc said:


Quote:


would trade us LJax straight up for Jones?



They’re a playoff team with either one and likely have a better shot to win in the postseason with Jones who actually knows how to throw the ball.


Wow.
Like I said, this isn't about Jones vs. Jackson.  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:29 pm : link
Comparisons only provided for context on my part.
RE: RE: Do you think the Ravens...  
bw in dc : 10/27/2020 8:30 pm : link
In comment 15026694 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15026686 bw in dc said:


Quote:


would trade us LJax straight up for Jones?



They’re a playoff team with either one and likely have a better shot to win in the postseason with Jones who actually knows how to throw the ball.


I don't know - maybe. Jones would definitely be in a better environment overall.

I do know what LJax can do because his production earned him an MVP. But I do get the concerns about Jax's issues when the Ravens get in a hole and become one dimensional. Just can't so unequivocally that Jones would solve that. That's a pretty big leap...
I think Jones has a nice skillset..  
Sean : 10/27/2020 8:30 pm : link
I’ll say this, I’m sure Shanahan would trade Garoppolo straight up for Jones. I think a guy like Shanahan could do a lot with Jones’ skill set. Same with McVay. He has tools you can work with. I’d imagine the Browns would trade Mayfield for Jones as well.

But, as SFGF notes above - the turnovers are very concerning. I can’t get around that to this point.
RE: RE: Guess I'll add this as well:  
FStubbs : 10/27/2020 8:30 pm : link
In comment 15026687 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
In comment 15026680 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Quote:


Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
6h
Before you give up on Daniel Jones, did you know the #Giants have PFF's dead last (Andrew Thomas) and second-to-last (Cam Fleming) graded OTs in pass pro (of 57 OTs who qualify)?
They combine to allow 57 pressures in 7 games.
The #Browns entire Oline has allowed 40 pressures.






So if we benched Thomas and Fleming, and literally put anyone in those 2 spots, statistically (PFF) speaking, they couldn’t be worse?

Jesus.


I guess even Bobby Hart ...
RE: I think Jones has a nice skillset..  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:31 pm : link
In comment 15026701 Sean said:
Quote:
I’ll say this, I’m sure Shanahan would trade Garoppolo straight up for Jones. I think a guy like Shanahan could do a lot with Jones’ skill set. Same with McVay. He has tools you can work with. I’d imagine the Browns would trade Mayfield for Jones as well.

But, as SFGF notes above - the turnovers are very concerning. I can’t get around that to this point.


Well let me ask YOU this: Would you take Garappolo or Mayfield straight up for Jones to be the Giants QB?
Britt-  
Sean : 10/27/2020 8:34 pm : link
No I wouldn’t. I’d put Jones above both players. Garoppolo is vastly overpaid imo. Jones has more talent than Mayfield imo.
Jones..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/27/2020 8:35 pm : link
has also been pressured on 54% of his dropbacks this season. The most of any QB
RE: Britt-  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:35 pm : link
In comment 15026710 Sean said:
Quote:
No I wouldn’t. I’d put Jones above both players. Garoppolo is vastly overpaid imo. Jones has more talent than Mayfield imo.


Okay... Now we're all finding a middle ground here. That's good.
Sean.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/27/2020 8:35 pm : link
That's what it comes down. If Jones can clean up the TOs, I believe he's a QB you can win with in this league. If not, well, he's going to be a backup.

I feel for the guy because he's playing behind an atrocious OL-again, thanks Gettleman!-& few skill players. Sterling is good, but Engram sucks. Tate is meh. Slayton & DJ seem to be a good combo, but I don't think Slayton is a #1 WR on a good team.
And let's not forget....  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:37 pm : link
Garappolo is a few play calls/plays away from being a Superbowl winning QB.
RE: I think Jones has a nice skillset..  
bw in dc : 10/27/2020 8:38 pm : link
In comment 15026701 Sean said:
Quote:
I’ll say this, I’m sure Shanahan would trade Garoppolo straight up for Jones. I think a guy like Shanahan could do a lot with Jones’ skill set. Same with McVay. He has tools you can work with. I’d imagine the Browns would trade Mayfield for Jones as well.

But, as SFGF notes above - the turnovers are very concerning. I can’t get around that to this point.


That's fascinating that you think that so convincingly. As if Jones skills are far superior to Garoppolo.
Jones's effectiveness as a rusher is beyond question  
Go Terps : 10/27/2020 8:41 pm : link
He's a really good runner. I've been saying it since last year: RPOs, rollouts, designed QB runs...that's what the offense should be from the outset. He should be featured as a runner, getting 8-12 attempts per game.

So why is he at only 4.4 carries per game?

If he's going to be the guy next year, I would acquire two mobile QBs to back him up and install an offense based on the QB as a runner - like they do in Baltimore. That's how you use Jones...not as a pocket passer.
Jones is a tough sob, I do give him that..  
Sean : 10/27/2020 8:42 pm : link
He’s got 9 games left, and I’m looking for clean games. No turnovers, just smart/efficient football.

I’d also like to see him play well and win the remaining NFC East games. That’s the type of things I’m looking for. Him playing well and elevating this offense to some wins is what I need to see.
Oh, I so look forward to hearing you spin Garappolo's skillset, bw....  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:42 pm : link
who wasn't even playing when his injury ridden roster beat the breaks off of us a couple of weeks ago.
RE: Jones's effectiveness as a rusher is beyond question  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:45 pm : link
In comment 15026724 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He's a really good runner. I've been saying it since last year: RPOs, rollouts, designed QB runs...that's what the offense should be from the outset. He should be featured as a runner, getting 8-12 attempts per game.

So why is he at only 4.4 carries per game?

If he's going to be the guy next year, I would acquire two mobile QBs to back him up and install an offense based on the QB as a runner - like they do in Baltimore. That's how you use Jones...not as a pocket passer.


See, I can get on board with that. Maybe like what New Orleans does with that Hill kid. When teams respect that, maybe Jones can develop more as a passer.
I agree with Sean  
Chris684 : 10/27/2020 8:51 pm : link
Some clean games statistically, some NFC East wins or a win against a team like Tampa Bay or Baltimore or a game winning drive or two would be go a long way.

I’m not really looking to move on from Jones but without question I’d draft Trevor Lawrence if given the opportunity.

I like to think it will all work out because if Jones really tanks the rest of the season, we may well have that chance. If he plays better like I laid out above, we won’t.
RE: Oh, I so look forward to hearing you spin Garappolo's skillset, bw....  
bw in dc : 10/27/2020 8:51 pm : link
In comment 15026726 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
who wasn't even playing when his injury ridden roster beat the breaks off of us a couple of weeks ago.


Well, that speaks to two things - they have one of the deepest rosters in the NFL and we have one of the worst.

As for JG's skill set, where do you want to start? He's not my favorite QB to defend, but he's a good QB considering where he was drafted - late in the 2nd round. Which is where Jones should have been drafted.

His career QBR is in the 70s, he's a pretty good athlete who can move and his has a plus arm. And he's won big games. Solid pedigree.

RE: RE: Oh, I so look forward to hearing you spin Garappolo's skillset, bw....  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:54 pm : link
In comment 15026734 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15026726 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


who wasn't even playing when his injury ridden roster beat the breaks off of us a couple of weeks ago.



Well, that speaks to two things - they have one of the deepest rosters in the NFL and we have one of the worst.

As for JG's skill set, where do you want to start? He's not my favorite QB to defend, but he's a good QB considering where he was drafted - late in the 2nd round. Which is where Jones should have been drafted.

His career QBR is in the 70s, he's a pretty good athlete who can move and his has a plus arm. And he's won big games. Solid pedigree.


He also sat for three years behind Tom Brady, learning.
The Jimmy G trade has been called  
Chris684 : 10/27/2020 8:57 pm : link
one of the greatest steals in NFL trade history. For the 2nd rounder plus that contract, I’m not really seeing that yet.
bw..  
Sean : 10/27/2020 8:58 pm : link
Your point about draft selection is fair, but that went out the window when SF gave him that huge deal. I don’t think he’s necessarily worth the money he is getting.
Jimmy G sat for three years behind Brady,  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 8:59 pm : link
got traded and played well on a 6-10 team, then followed it up with an injury riddled year on a 4-12 team, before finally emerging, 5 years later on a Superbowl San Fran roster.

But we're talking about the book being out on Jones after 20 games?
I'm not following...  
bw in dc : 10/27/2020 9:02 pm : link
JG was drafted to maybe one day be the heir apparent to Brady. And if the speculation is true, Belichick was willing to keep him and let Brady go three years ago. But Brady went to Kraft and cashed in some chips.

Jones, meanwhile, was drafted to be THE MAN once the organization came to their sense that Eli was finished.

Much different circumstances.

RE: I think Jones has a nice skillset..  
The_Boss : 10/27/2020 9:02 pm : link
In comment 15026701 Sean said:
Quote:
I’ll say this, I’m sure Shanahan would trade Garoppolo straight up for Jones. I think a guy like Shanahan could do a lot with Jones’ skill set. Same with McVay. He has tools you can work with. I’d imagine the Browns would trade Mayfield for Jones as well.

But, as SFGF notes above - the turnovers are very concerning. I can’t get around that to this point.


I’m not a Mayfield fan but I do not think for one second that Cleveland would trade him straight up for Jones. Come on.
RE: RE: I think Jones has a nice skillset..  
The_Boss : 10/27/2020 9:03 pm : link
In comment 15026706 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15026701 Sean said:


Quote:


I’ll say this, I’m sure Shanahan would trade Garoppolo straight up for Jones. I think a guy like Shanahan could do a lot with Jones’ skill set. Same with McVay. He has tools you can work with. I’d imagine the Browns would trade Mayfield for Jones as well.

But, as SFGF notes above - the turnovers are very concerning. I can’t get around that to this point.



Well let me ask YOU this: Would you take Garappolo or Mayfield straight up for Jones to be the Giants QB?


I would.
And in 20 games.....  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 9:03 pm : link
Jones has shown equal to or more as Jimmy G in 4-5 years. But Jimmy G gets a pass and Jones has hit his ceiling.

Following?
But I'm letting myself get caught up.  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 9:05 pm : link
Those are the stats posted in the op.

They speak for themselves.
Hey Britt, where in VA do you live?  
GiantNatty : 10/27/2020 9:05 pm : link
.
Boss..  
Sean : 10/27/2020 9:07 pm : link
John Middlekauff whose a former NFL scout recently said on Twitter from a pure talent standpoint, Mayfield likely has the least of all the starting QB’s in the NFL. I’m not a Mayfield fan, I don’t see why he does exceptionally well. At least Jones presents a running threat.
RE: bw..  
bw in dc : 10/27/2020 9:09 pm : link
In comment 15026743 Sean said:
Quote:
Your point about draft selection is fair, but that went out the window when SF gave him that huge deal. I don’t think he’s necessarily worth the money he is getting.


Okay, well, that's a different conversation. The 9ers saw something in his game and gave him the big contract. The average annual salary right now is $27M+, 13th in the league amongst QBs. Which by today's standards actually isn't bad.

He's not my favorite QB but he almost won a SB - was likely going to be the MVP - and has put up very respectable numbers thus far.

To be clear, I'm not elevating him to top ten NFL status. But I think there are things to work with and he has proven he can win NFL games...
Britt makes a fair point though..  
Sean : 10/27/2020 9:15 pm : link
Jimmy G sat behind Brady all those years, had a few good games and then parlayed that into a trade, starting role and large contract. I can’t think of a player whose ever cashed out more over such a small, initial sample size.
RE: Hey Britt, where in VA do you live?  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2020 9:16 pm : link
In comment 15026755 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
.


Richmond VA. More specifically, Bon Air.
RE: Britt makes a fair point though..  
bw in dc : 10/27/2020 9:17 pm : link
In comment 15026761 Sean said:
Quote:
Jimmy G sat behind Brady all those years, had a few good games and then parlayed that into a trade, starting role and large contract. I can’t think of a player whose ever cashed out more over such a small, initial sample size.


Matt Flynn ring a bell?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have not given up  
Blue21 : 10/27/2020 9:35 pm : link
on Daniel Jones. Kid showed too much last year to say this quick that he ain't the guy.
Give this man some competent  
tyrik13 : 10/27/2020 9:47 pm : link
Tackles and some got damn playmakers who can separate and catch the got damn ball, Jones will be fine and can win. If we continue to not give him talent to work with then we’ll just be wasting his career
Jones is the least of our problems.  
montanagiant : 10/27/2020 9:50 pm : link
Get the O-Line playing to at least the league average
Get a true #1 receiver that can take the top off the D
Do those 2 things and Jones will shine

Add a legit Edge Rusher and a decent #2 CB and we'll start cooking
What is with this Jones shit  
Black_Flag : 10/27/2020 10:33 pm : link
This is a one win team.

Jones has been outplayed by pretty much every QB he faced this year.

Wentz, Kyle Allen, A Dalton, Dak Prescott, Mullens etc.

He got outplayed b Kyle Allen. I saw Allen throw deep and yes even in cover 2. We have seen these QBs play well with shit rosters too. We have seen these guys play with 8-10 starters out respectively.

Last year we saw Jones Turn the ball and lose a bunch of games. Put up meaningless numbers while constantly trailing by 2 scores from turnovers he created. We watched Eli play against a play off bound Dolphins team that only sucked really because their QB play sucked and beat him. I watched some of the game again ; he threw deep, played with a 2-3 score lead. Actually won a game for once that wasn't against the Washington football team.

Yet we are supposed to believe if it is just this or that then Jones is the goods.

Despite all the facts this place is just the Jones and Saquon fan club. What is it going to take for you guys to realize this team would be better with another QB.
RE: What is with this Jones shit  
montanagiant : 10/27/2020 10:59 pm : link
In comment 15026805 Black_Flag said:
Quote:
This is a one win team.

Jones has been outplayed by pretty much every QB he faced this year.

Wentz, Kyle Allen, A Dalton, Dak Prescott, Mullens etc.

He got outplayed b Kyle Allen. I saw Allen throw deep and yes even in cover 2. We have seen these QBs play well with shit rosters too. We have seen these guys play with 8-10 starters out respectively.

Last year we saw Jones Turn the ball and lose a bunch of games. Put up meaningless numbers while constantly trailing by 2 scores from turnovers he created. We watched Eli play against a play off bound Dolphins team that only sucked really because their QB play sucked and beat him. I watched some of the game again ; he threw deep, played with a 2-3 score lead. Actually won a game for once that wasn't against the Washington football team.

Yet we are supposed to believe if it is just this or that then Jones is the goods.

Despite all the facts this place is just the Jones and Saquon fan club. What is it going to take for you guys to realize this team would be better with another QB.

What QB that he's been outplayed by has shitty weapons and no O-line as bad as ours?
why do you like Jones so much  
Black_Flag : 10/27/2020 11:13 pm : link
Which ones didn't?

Is the Washington Football team just bursting at the seams with pro bowlers ?

Were the Eagles w/ 3 of their starting Oline out (or whatever the heck it was) and their 8 starters out really that much better than the Giants line?

Were Mullens and his missing 10 starters really filled with talent at key positions and linemen?

i really don't feel like watching this team lose again to figure out how much of this is blitzing and how much it is getting pressure with their front four, but I do not recall it ever being just a rush with the front four. I have a feeling you will argue anyway and just blame Engram or Garret or something to try and justify this weird inexplicable admiration from what is by all accounts a bottom tier starting QB if even a starting QB. Heck Allen , Dalton ad Mullens are backups!

In any case why have other supposed elite Qbs played on bad lines? Peyton , Luck, Wilson. Heck what was the point of taking Jones 6th then?? If he's just a Tannehill ...grab someone..... off the scrap pile and use the picks for "weapons"
Jones  
WillVAB : 10/27/2020 11:23 pm : link
It’s not about designing runs for him. That should probably happen, but the issue is he doesn’t seem to know when to use his legs or have the innate ability to. That’s the difference with the truly mobile QBs — they use their legs to create time to throw and know when to take off. I don’t see that ability with Jones and I’m not sure if we ever will.

That’s really the biggest issue with Jones right now. He’s accurate with the football and he can run. But the decision making needs to be faster. See the play and if it’s not there take off. If the receiver needs time buy time in the pocket with your legs. Too much hesitation. Not enough feel in the pocket yet.

The organization and Jones need to decide what type of QB he is going to be. If he’s going to be more of a Lamar type then they need to feature his legs more and design a simple offense with easy reads. If the vision is more of a Rodgers type, then he needs to be sharper mentally and learn how to buy time in the pocket with his legs.
Something I am confident saying  
Go Terps : 10/27/2020 11:36 pm : link
It is never going to work with Jones as a pocket passer like Eli, Brees, etc. Never. There are a couple reasons:

1. He doesn't have the skill set. There's a hitch in his release, he locks on to his primary read, and he has no pocket presence at all. Jones is a hard worker, a smart kid, and has had access to excellent QB coaching for years...yet he still has bad habits. The NFL is not where you go to unlearn bad habits - it's hard enough to compete against the best players and coaches in the world already without having to relearn how to play. Jones is what he is.

2. The NFL is already moving away from pocket passers for a couple reasons:

a. It is more effective to have a mobile QB
b. College is not producing pocket passers
c. College is not producing offensive linemen that are good at protecting pocket passers

Giving a young QB 3-4 years to learn how to throw from the pocket is enormously inefficient. We're seeing around the league that the college-to-NFL learning curve has never been easier for quarterbacks.

The Giants need to reconcile themselves with the above points, because of they try to turn Jones into a pocket passer it will never work.
Maybe the Giants should  
GMen72 : 10/28/2020 12:51 am : link
let Jones play RB and Saquon play QB? Anyone gave any solid Saquon passing stats? Crazy me...I thought we drafted DJ as a QB, but we're focused on running but don't want to admit his passing stats suck and he's a turnover machine.
RE: Something I am confident saying  
aGiantGuy : 10/28/2020 6:12 am : link
In comment 15026835 Go Terps said:
Quote:

1. He doesn't have the skill set. There's a hitch in his release, he locks on to his primary read, and he has no pocket presence at all. Jones is a hard worker, a smart kid, and has had access to excellent QB coaching for years...yet he still has bad habits. The NFL is not where you go to unlearn bad habits - it's hard enough to compete against the best players and coaches in the world already without having to relearn how to play. Jones is what he is.

Giving a young QB 3-4 years to learn how to throw from the pocket is enormously inefficient. We're seeing around the league that the college-to-NFL learning curve has never been easier for quarterbacks.


Lots of respect for your GM opinions, however, on the players/coach aspect of what can be learned/taught. You're right habits do not go away midseason, unless you're Eli, but they absolutely can go away in the offseason. Especially one with extra OTA's and minicamps for new head coaches. We didn't get that. Schuplinski coached a ton of bad habits out of Jimmy G and Brissett, and that's why he was brought here. Giving a qb 3-4 years can provide great return, if you hit. ROI would still be positive.

We saw Dak develop from a QB all of us enjoyed playing against, to one who can actually put up 400 yards against us. His mechanics and footwork look totally different from his rookie year.

QB's develop all the time, lemme rephrase that, good QB's make their name on the ability to develop their game.

Stafford stared down one receiver his first 7 years in the league, didn't have a QBR above 60 until Calvin Johnson left, in his 8th year as a starter. There's a crap ton of examples of those who did develop and those who never kicked the bad habits. It goes both ways.

It's going to come down to all these "teachers" we've hired as coaches, let's put the pressure on them to develop what little talent we have. If we get the 1st overall pick it comes down to what helps us more, Trevor Lawrence, or 3 1st rounders+ and Jones. I'm taking the latter, as talented as I believe Lawrence is.

Case Study

The strategy projects to a similar Jones' comp in Miami, if Miami

1. didn't wait so long to fire Gase

2. tried Tannehill with the new regime on a 1 year deal

They could've used that 5th pick on Mekhi Becton or traded it for 2 more 1sts.

They might be 1st in the AFC East and further along with that strategy, rather than rolling dice, trying to strike gold with a rookie QB.

Now they have 2 legit #1 corners who may be too old when they're ready to start winning. I don't think the FO read the field appropriately after 2018, therefore, the cycle continues.

-The FO got great return from their trades and made an excellent coaching hire, that I will give them credit for.
I don't think we can truly evaluate Jones...  
EricJ : 10/28/2020 6:33 am : link
until he has an average OL and average eligible WRs to throw to.

Right now he has...
1 The worst OL in football being protected by a left tackle who is already being called a bust
2. A starting running back who was on the couch until we called him a month ago
3. A subpar group of WRs who are often hurt. Slayton is a good #2. He has no #1. Shepard is always hurt and everyone here says Tate is trash. We have had guys out there starting who I did not even know were on the roster. These guys cannot get open.
4. A TE who flat out sucks, cannot catch, cannot run proper routes, and cannot block
5. An OC who is subpar calling head scratching calls

So, with no running game we are always in 3rd and long situations. Stats show he is pressured more than any QB and has the shortest window to throw. We all have said these WRs cannot get open.

I am actually surprised he does not look worse and had a chance to win more games this year at the end.
RE: I was super high on DJ coming into this season.  
joe48 : 10/28/2020 7:30 am : link
In comment 15026685 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
And I still think he's a QB we can win with, but-and it's a HUGE but-the turnovers...we can't gloss over them. It's just alarming. And I know the counterargument is 'Well, P. Manning had a lot of TOs too at the start of his career'. But Manning is one of the best QBs of all time & I don't think any of us see Jones being on the Mt. Rushmore of NFL QBs.

I thought he played well on Thursday & if Engram-that bum-makes that catch, we're 2-5 & the atmosphere around here is totally different, as we'd be in contention in an awful division/finally beat the Eagles.
”Greatest of all times “ I don’t think so. Other than 3 seasons Eli never showed the ability to carry the team. The 2 SB were great but we also had a very strong defense.
RE: Do you think the Ravens...  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/28/2020 7:36 am : link
In comment 15026686 bw in dc said:
Quote:
would trade us LJax straight up for Jones?

Of course they would. Just look at the top speed and YPC!
RE: Like I said, this isn't about Jones vs. Jackson.  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/28/2020 7:38 am : link
In comment 15026699 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Comparisons only provided for context on my part.

Four whole minutes of not taking the bait hahaha.
Admittedly  
flicker, flea : 10/28/2020 7:45 am : link
I do not have any background in football other than being a fan. But, if you were trying to develop player X, in any sport, wouldn't you maximize his innate talents and strong points while coaching him up on the things that need work simultaneously? With Jones, it seems as though if they added his ability to run as a focal point of the offense, it might loosen up defenses, keep the pass rush at bay, take pressure off the line, and give him more time to throw?
This is what drives me insane about Giants fans  
Black_Flag : 10/28/2020 7:47 am : link
In comment 15026912 joe48 said:
Quote:
In comment 15026685 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


And I still think he's a QB we can win with, but-and it's a HUGE but-the turnovers...we can't gloss over them. It's just alarming. And I know the counterargument is 'Well, P. Manning had a lot of TOs too at the start of his career'. But Manning is one of the best QBs of all time & I don't think any of us see Jones being on the Mt. Rushmore of NFL QBs.

I thought he played well on Thursday & if Engram-that bum-makes that catch, we're 2-5 & the atmosphere around here is totally different, as we'd be in contention in an awful division/finally beat the Eagles.

”Greatest of all times “ I don’t think so. Other than 3 seasons Eli never showed the ability to carry the team. The 2 SB were great but we also had a very strong defense.


So Eli only gave you 3 seasons where he carried a pretty mediocre to above average team to 2 world championships?

So instead lets hand the reigns over to a guy who can't even get into field goal range on the last drive of a game or not throw an int to lose the game?

How does that make sense? I guess it is this whole fascination with the culture's "new" mania. It sucks but it's new at least. We lose every game except to Washington but we can run the rpo and once it awhile danny boy breaks one. To most fans I guess they think "well then they should keep doing that". You keep running that naked bootleg over and over and jones is going to get his leg broken 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage when 3 LBs see it coming a mile a way.
How could you possibly eliminate all turnovers  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 10/28/2020 8:00 am : link
When your offense is built around throwing the ball to Evan "HANDS OF STONE" Engram?
To be fair, if DJ had a Tight End that was competent  
LBH15 : 10/28/2020 8:15 am : link
his game against the Eagles would have been one the better ones a Giant QB had against them that I recall.

He was 20 for 30, 187 yards, 2 TDs and 1 Int and 1 Fumble. With another 92 yards rushing.

Engram accounted for the 1 int, 30 lost passing yards on the drop, and Jones wouldn't have fumbled to end the game.

just sayin'

RE: I don't think we can truly evaluate Jones...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/28/2020 8:29 am : link
In comment 15026904 EricJ said:
Quote:
until he has an average OL and average eligible WRs to throw to.

Right now he has...
1 The worst OL in football being protected by a left tackle who is already being called a bust
2. A starting running back who was on the couch until we called him a month ago
3. A subpar group of WRs who are often hurt. Slayton is a good #2. He has no #1. Shepard is always hurt and everyone here says Tate is trash. We have had guys out there starting who I did not even know were on the roster. These guys cannot get open.
4. A TE who flat out sucks, cannot catch, cannot run proper routes, and cannot block
5. An OC who is subpar calling head scratching calls

So, with no running game we are always in 3rd and long situations. Stats show he is pressured more than any QB and has the shortest window to throw. We all have said these WRs cannot get open.

I am actually surprised he does not look worse and had a chance to win more games this year at the end.


The ironic thing about this is that these are all conditions that Daniel Jones dealt with in college, and the Giants felt perfectly fine evaluating him as a top ten pick.
These stats are stupid frankly  
Tuckrule : 10/28/2020 8:32 am : link
Giants.com throwing out stats that make jones look good. News at 10. I mean I’m not interested in jones rushing stats and where they rank. Did it help Vick all those years?? I want to see him leading the league or near the top in you know, passing categories. These stats shouldn’t give anyone a warm and fuzzy feeling. His rushing stats are due to a shit line. Poor running back play and weak offensive talent around him
New offense  
joeinpa : 10/28/2020 8:39 am : link
For a sophomore quarterback. No preseason to prepare. Playing behind probably the worst offensive line in football with mostly below average receivers, a tight end who has never been a factor, minus his best offensive weapons, Barkley and Shepherd for most of the season.

Turnovers? I see quarterbacks all over the league every week turning the ball over when pressured.

It s been established Jones is the most pressured quarterback in the league, see the connection

I am very confident Jones is the answer, I have a hard time understanding the bias against him, we ll see who s right.
I think many of you are missing the boat  
Dnew15 : 10/28/2020 8:41 am : link
on Jason G. - I actually think he's doing a great job.

This Giants team isn't winning a Super Bowl-competing for a division-finishing above .500.

This year is about Daniel Jones and whether you can build around him. The more designed running plays they have for him - the more likely it is he gets hurt. You can't evaluate a guy if he's hurt.

Add in the fact that he's got to design an offensive game plan around the two worst tackles in the NFL, a TE that can't catch, a running game that features a bunch of JAGS, and a WR that can't create separation or get a clean release off the line of scrimmage.

He's also trying to protect a defense that's not as good as they look on paper.

This team's only chance to win any games and protect DJ is call every game exactly the way they are - and there's a good chance that order is coming from Judge.
RE: I think many of you are missing the boat  
Sonic Youth : 10/28/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 15026958 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
on Jason G. - I actually think he's doing a great job.

This Giants team isn't winning a Super Bowl-competing for a division-finishing above .500.

This year is about Daniel Jones and whether you can build around him. The more designed running plays they have for him - the more likely it is he gets hurt. You can't evaluate a guy if he's hurt.

Add in the fact that he's got to design an offensive game plan around the two worst tackles in the NFL, a TE that can't catch, a running game that features a bunch of JAGS, and a WR that can't create separation or get a clean release off the line of scrimmage.

He's also trying to protect a defense that's not as good as they look on paper.

This team's only chance to win any games and protect DJ is call every game exactly the way they are - and there's a good chance that order is coming from Judge.
He's athletic and fast. Saying that runs shouldn't be designed for him at all because he might get hurt doesn't make sense, as you're taking away one of his most unique/strongest attributes. Now having said that, there's of course a balance there. You can't run him every play and have him get hurt, but it should be in the playbook and used more frequently than it is now.
Agree in large part with what Terps said  
Mike from Ohio : 10/28/2020 9:48 am : link
The Giants should be designing the offense to Jones' strength which is his mobility. He is much closer to Lamar Jackson right now in his skill set than he is Eli. He is not a pocket passer yet because the game is still moving too quickly for him and he is not making good decisions in the pocket. That may improve, but that is not what he is yet and there is no need to try and make him that, especially with little talent elsewhere that make being a pocket passer more difficult.

I love the model Baltimore followed with Jackson of playing to his strengths instead of trying to shoehorn him into a system. The Giants should be doing the same thing with Jones because his skill set is similar.
Jackson is an electric talent  
ryanmkeane : 10/28/2020 9:49 am : link
and obviously they've made their offense to fit perfectly with his skills. But his performance once the weather turns has been pretty bad. He's really young and obviously should get better as time goes on, but as of this point he's a 50% passer in the playoffs.

People love to call out Jones for his warts every single day, let's at least be honest about the other QBs downsides as well.
Monday night  
ryanmkeane : 10/28/2020 9:52 am : link
will be a good test for Jones' progression. Playing against a really good defense, national spotlight. Let's see if he's up to it.
RE: RE: I don't think we can truly evaluate Jones...  
EricJ : 10/28/2020 10:00 am : link
In comment 15026951 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:


The ironic thing about this is that these are all conditions that Daniel Jones dealt with in college, and the Giants felt perfectly fine evaluating him as a top ten pick.


I have no idea how to evaluate a QB in college. So many variables... even more than the pros. Not sure what the Giants were looking at or whether they were leaning heavily on the endorsement from his coach.

Meanwhile...ask me about evaluating a defensive back or a WR and I can provide you with NFL scout level feedback.
RE: Agree in large part with what Terps said  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2020 10:01 am : link
In comment 15027032 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
The Giants should be designing the offense to Jones' strength which is his mobility. He is much closer to Lamar Jackson right now in his skill set than he is Eli. He is not a pocket passer yet because the game is still moving too quickly for him and he is not making good decisions in the pocket. That may improve, but that is not what he is yet and there is no need to try and make him that, especially with little talent elsewhere that make being a pocket passer more difficult.

I love the model Baltimore followed with Jackson of playing to his strengths instead of trying to shoehorn him into a system. The Giants should be doing the same thing with Jones because his skill set is similar.


And it seems we have seen more designed runs for him in recent weeks, so maybe they are.

They are implementing this whole offense on the fly, by the way...

I know it was mentioned that he's running only 4.4 times per game. But that's season average. Has that been consistent, or has it been increasing at all game to game?
Not sure what you guys are watching. Everytime I see Jones  
LBH15 : 10/28/2020 10:04 am : link
he is on the run whether he planned to or not.
Jones  
PaulN : 10/28/2020 10:26 am : link
Is not ever going to be great, or lead the team to a Superbowl, he has flaws that will never be corrected and will get worse, he panics under pressure unless the play called goes perfect so he does not have to think at all. I agree he would do well with a great team, so would just about any NFL QB. I think he could become a decent QB, but never great and never clutch, he will ruin great opportunity, bbi knocked Romo, Jones will never be as good as Romo.
RE: RE: Hey Britt, where in VA do you live?  
Brown_Hornet : 10/28/2020 10:31 am : link
In comment 15026762 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15026755 GiantNatty said:


Quote:


.



Richmond VA. More specifically, Bon Air.

Funny, I remember when you were looking at a house in Stratford Hills.

I lived in Bon Air at the time...I moved to Stratford Hills!

heh~
Win's vs Losses  
NJLCO : 10/28/2020 10:37 am : link
The only stat that counts and I hope DJ becomes the greatest Giants QB ever but until than the only cool DJ stat is winning football games.
RE: RE: RE: Hey Britt, where in VA do you live?  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2020 10:41 am : link
In comment 15027078 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 15026762 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15026755 GiantNatty said:


Quote:


.



Richmond VA. More specifically, Bon Air.


Funny, I remember when you were looking at a house in Stratford Hills.

I lived in Bon Air at the time...I moved to Stratford Hills!

heh~


I loved my house in Stratford Hills. Both my kids were born there. Saw both Giants Superbowls there. Best years of my life so far. When it’s time to downsize, I’m moving back!
Keep in mind  
crick n NC : 10/28/2020 10:49 am : link
On Jones' biggest runs, Jones himself has a hand in deciding how the play unfolds. From my view those runs were zone reads, where Jones reads the backside edge defender which tells Jones whether to hand to the back or keep it himself.
aGiantGuy’s 6:12 post is a good one..  
Sean : 10/28/2020 10:50 am : link
There is a downside to blowing up and starting over. It generally sets the clock back. I have concerns with Jones (I was very annoyed after the Dallas game), but starting over at QB just resets the clock again. That’s how so many franchises (including the Giants now) continuously spin their wheels.

If you watch Mara’s comments after Gettleman was retained last year, he talks about not wanting to blow it up after so much was implemented with DG since he was hired.

We are seeing the consequences of that now, there’s no doubt that a new staff has led to growing pains. It’s why it’s so tough to compete when there is no stability. But, I’m very high on Judge. Here are the records of first year head coaches this year:

Stefanski: 5-2
Rhule: 3-4
Rivera: 2-5
McCarthy: 2-5
Judge: 1-6

The Browns are the most talented, so it’s not shocking CLE is 5-2. The best case scenario for this franchise would be not needed to start over again. I’d rather see Judge & Jones have a strong second half.
......  
BrettNYG10 : 10/28/2020 10:55 am : link
I haven't given up on Jones either, but some of these takes are absurd. Jones is currently a bottom five starting QB in the league. He's flashed but is being ruined by a crap team.

No one in the NFL is taking Jones over Mayfield/Jimmy G.

Jackson is in a different stratosphere than any of those guys. I hope whoever would take Jones over Jackson checks themselves into a mental institution.
RE: ......  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2020 10:57 am : link
In comment 15027115 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I haven't given up on Jones either, but some of these takes are absurd. Jones is currently a bottom five starting QB in the league. He's flashed but is being ruined by a crap team.

No one in the NFL is taking Jones over Mayfield/Jimmy G.

Jackson is in a different stratosphere than any of those guys. I hope whoever would take Jones over Jackson checks themselves into a mental institution.


Let me ask you a very simple question.

Do you think Lamar Jackson would be the same player he is today had the Giants drafted him?

Everything else the same. Giants draft Lamar Jackson in 2018 either by a high second round pick or trading back into the first to get him.

Is Lamar Jackson the MVP last year? Is he even close? What does that player look like, and why?
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/28/2020 10:58 am : link
The Browns are an average-ish football team with an incredibly easy record. They might make the playoffs because of how easy their schedule is.

They beat the Cowboys, Redskins, Colts, Bengals (x2), and play the Texans, Jaguars, Giants, Eagles, and Jets. It's absurd.
And, is the Giants record different than what it is today?  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2020 10:58 am : link
Or last year?
RE: RE: ......  
BrettNYG10 : 10/28/2020 11:04 am : link
In comment 15027120 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15027115 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I haven't given up on Jones either, but some of these takes are absurd. Jones is currently a bottom five starting QB in the league. He's flashed but is being ruined by a crap team.

No one in the NFL is taking Jones over Mayfield/Jimmy G.

Jackson is in a different stratosphere than any of those guys. I hope whoever would take Jones over Jackson checks themselves into a mental institution.



Let me ask you a very simple question.

Do you think Lamar Jackson would be the same player he is today had the Giants drafted him?

Everything else the same. Giants draft Lamar Jackson in 2018 either by a high second round pick or trading back into the first to get him.

Is Lamar Jackson the MVP last year? Is he even close? What does that player look like, and why?


No, I don't think Jackson is the MVP with the Giants, in large part because their coaching sucked last year (and still sucks on the offensive side of the ball this year). The Giants are a better team with Lamar Jackson, though. Jackson on the Giants is worth a few wins, IMO.

Jackson is a significantly superior player. He was in college and is in the pros. Jackson threw for more yards than Jones in college.

Jackson took a .500 football team and dragged them into the playoffs his rookie season. He completely changed the team.
Yeah Jones isn't on the same planet as Jackson  
Go Terps : 10/28/2020 11:05 am : link
That's difficult to take seriously.
RE: And, is the Giants record different than what it is today?  
BrettNYG10 : 10/28/2020 11:05 am : link
In comment 15027122 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Or last year?


It's definitely better.
Lots of love  
ryanmkeane : 10/28/2020 11:05 am : link
for Jackson and he deserves it. But, he can't throw the ball in cold weather. It's a problem.
I don't think I'm ready to  
Dnew15 : 10/28/2020 11:07 am : link
declare Jones no good, never as good as Romo, never win a Super Bowl, etc.

BUT I do worry about this clutchness (for lack of a better word).

He's had the ball in his hands with a chance to tie/win/ice/mount a comeback in 6 games this season. He hasn't done it once.

He couldn't finish the long drive against PIT - as a matter of fact he ruined it.

He couldn't come up with a clutch throw at the end of the game against the Bears - totally had a chance to win/tie the game there.

He had a chance to lead the Giants down the field against the Rams and win/tie the game - couldn't do it.

Had a chance against the Cowboys with under 2 min to lead a game winning drive - couldn't do it.

He had a chance to bury the WFT - he threw a pick in the end zone.

Had a chance to ice the game against the Eagles - couldn't do it.

It's not all on him - he was let down at times by this positional players, his coaches, his OL...but at the end of the day - when you're the QB and you've got the ball with a chance to win/tie/ice a game...it's on you to get the job done...and he hasn't.

This year - that's just a fact.
Jones has given us enough to be optimistic and hopeful.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/28/2020 11:07 am : link
But comparisons to Jackson are just brain dead and laughable.
RE: Lots of love  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2020 11:08 am : link
In comment 15027131 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
for Jackson and he deserves it. But, he can't throw the ball in cold weather. It's a problem.


It's interesting to see that all the fans of Jackson dislike Jones, but Jones' best skillset is similar to Lamar's best skillset, albeit poor man's version. I actually think Jones would be a really good fit on the Ravens team as it's currently designed.

Now, am I saying that Jones is as good as Jackson? No. But am I saying that he has a similar skillset? Yes.

It's just weird to see people go gaga over Jackson but in the same breath say that Jones isn't something that can be worked with and be successful with.
RE: RE: Hey Britt, where in VA do you live?  
Boatie Warrant : 10/28/2020 11:12 am : link
In comment 15026762 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15026755 GiantNatty said:


Quote:


.



Richmond VA. More specifically, Bon Air.


We are very Close to each other. I live in Prince George VA
I could be wrong, but I’ve seen an improvement with Garrett..  
Sean : 10/28/2020 11:13 am : link
Mainly, since the Dallas game. We’ve seen Jones run more the last few games. His call on the Jones run last week was very good. And to be fair, the call on the Engram drop was brilliant and would have iced the game.

I’m not saying he’s been great, but I’ve seen improvement.
jackson  
Black_Flag : 10/28/2020 11:13 am : link
Still would have helped this team win games. Fuck Eli would have helped this team win games.

Everything with Jones is that pass or look at that one run or we came so close if Engram only makes that one easy catch.

Eli, Goff Wilson they try and make plays all the time. Wilsons TE dropped one in the end zone in the Sunday Night Game ; he just keep on throwing. J Goff in Monday night takes shots down the field all the time. Eli did the same thing in the Miami game last year. It is pretty obvious this year they have tried minimizing Jones' turnovers. It is resulting in very conservative play and not enough points to win games or him turning the ball over and losing games just the same like Rams/Bears or him just going to his old ways and looking good in certain plays but Turning over the ball just the same and losing to Philly.
RE: RE: RE: I don't think we can truly evaluate Jones...  
bw in dc : 10/28/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 15027048 EricJ said:
Quote:

I have no idea how to evaluate a QB in college. So many variables... even more than the pros. Not sure what the Giants were looking at or whether they were leaning heavily on the endorsement from his coach.



As much as they try to science it up - and I like the science part of it - it's still more art than science trying to evaluate college QBs.

With the evolution of today's game, outside of the traditional skills (accuracy, size, RPMs, etc), the majority of these are a now a must:

-- Dual threat - able to get first downs by air and land
-- Mobility
-- Athleticism
-- Accuracy outside the pocket

As for Jones, I think his selection was based largely on a desire to find Eli 2.0. So the Cutcliffe connection, going to Manning Passing Camps, personality, toughness, etc, checked so many boxes for the romantics at Jints Central....



RE: RE: Lots of love  
Black_Flag : 10/28/2020 11:22 am : link
In comment 15027137 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15027131 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


for Jackson and he deserves it. But, he can't throw the ball in cold weather. It's a problem.



It's interesting to see that all the fans of Jackson dislike Jones, but Jones' best skillset is similar to Lamar's best skillset, albeit poor man's version. I actually think Jones would be a really good fit on the Ravens team as it's currently designed.

Now, am I saying that Jones is as good as Jackson? No. But am I saying that he has a similar skillset? Yes.

It's just weird to see people go gaga over Jackson but in the same breath say that Jones isn't something that can be worked with and be successful with.



Just because they are both RPO, fast running QBs they are both the same? Or that jones can some day be as good and win like Jackson? Is that really your argument?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think we can truly evaluate Jones...  
Black_Flag : 10/28/2020 11:25 am : link
In comment 15027148 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15027048 EricJ said:


Quote:



I have no idea how to evaluate a QB in college. So many variables... even more than the pros. Not sure what the Giants were looking at or whether they were leaning heavily on the endorsement from his coach.





As much as they try to science it up - and I like the science part of it - it's still more art than science trying to evaluate college QBs.

With the evolution of today's game, outside of the traditional skills (accuracy, size, RPMs, etc), the majority of these are a now a must:

-- Dual threat - able to get first downs by air and land
-- Mobility
-- Athleticism
-- Accuracy outside the pocket

As for Jones, I think his selection was based largely on a desire to find Eli 2.0. So the Cutcliffe connection, going to Manning Passing Camps, personality, toughness, etc, checked so many boxes for the romantics at Jints Central....




I fail to see the similarities at all.

Eli was a deep throwing ; good arm QB who thrived in play action pass and took what I am sure many would argue too many chances, and hated running.

jones is actually the opposite -- little arm , short passing rpo QB who is very fast and it is his best attribute.
RE: I could be wrong, but I’ve seen an improvement with Garrett..  
crick n NC : 10/28/2020 11:27 am : link
In comment 15027144 Sean said:
Quote:
Mainly, since the Dallas game. We’ve seen Jones run more the last few games. His call on the Jones run last week was very good. And to be fair, the call on the Engram drop was brilliant and would have iced the game.

I’m not saying he’s been great, but I’ve seen improvement.


Is it all Garrett improving or perhaps some of it is the players are becoming more comfortable in the offense. How long do we think it takes for players to be comfortable enough for the OC to be able to use most of the playbook? Of course that depends on that complexity, the teaching effectiveness, the players receiving the teaching.
Can you teach a qb  
Football Giants : 10/28/2020 11:28 am : link
Pocket awareness? Can you teach him not to panic under pressure? Can you teach him to process the play faster? I really am not sure but I think some of those are intrinsic skills that cannot be taught
RE: ......  
bw in dc : 10/28/2020 11:31 am : link
In comment 15027115 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I haven't given up on Jones either, but some of these takes are absurd. Jones is currently a bottom five starting QB in the league. He's flashed but is being ruined by a crap team.

No one in the NFL is taking Jones over Mayfield/Jimmy G.

Jackson is in a different stratosphere than any of those guys. I hope whoever would take Jones over Jackson checks themselves into a mental institution.


You need to stop at the Kool Aid stand and drink a big cold glass of the Jones Juice.

If Jones had:

Tackles: Trent Williams & Ronnie Staley
Guards: Quentin Nelson & David DeCastro
Center: Jason Kelce
TE: Travis Kelce
WRs: DeAndre Hopkins & Mike Evans
RBs: SBarkley
FB: Kyle Juszczek

We would clearly see how great he is. So until we can get those players, or similar players, it's just not fair to judge Jones.

I never read anything from Mara.com  
arniefez : 10/28/2020 11:33 am : link
So here's some cool stats from losers.com:

Daniel Jones 4 wins - 15 loses

Dave Gettleman GM 10 wins - 29 loses

Chris Mara as SR VP Player Personnel 52 wins - 83 loses

You can probably add 2 wins to those totals and another 7 loses by the end of this year.

Cool Stats.
.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2020 11:35 am : link
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think we can truly evaluate Jones...  
bw in dc : 10/28/2020 11:35 am : link
In comment 15027160 Black_Flag said:
Quote:

I fail to see the similarities at all.

Eli was a deep throwing ; good arm QB who thrived in play action pass and took what I am sure many would argue too many chances, and hated running.

jones is actually the opposite -- little arm , short passing rpo QB who is very fast and it is his best attribute.


I didn't mean to suggest they were similar by skill sets. But Jones had those intangibles that the romantics at Jints Central crave.

The Raiders manta is "Just Win Baby!"

The Giants mantra is "Just be the 'Giants Way' Baby!"
RE: RE: ......  
Black_Flag : 10/28/2020 11:48 am : link
In comment 15027165 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15027115 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I haven't given up on Jones either, but some of these takes are absurd. Jones is currently a bottom five starting QB in the league. He's flashed but is being ruined by a crap team.

No one in the NFL is taking Jones over Mayfield/Jimmy G.

Jackson is in a different stratosphere than any of those guys. I hope whoever would take Jones over Jackson checks themselves into a mental institution.



You need to stop at the Kool Aid stand and drink a big cold glass of the Jones Juice.

If Jones had:

Tackles: Trent Williams & Ronnie Staley
Guards: Quentin Nelson & David DeCastro
Center: Jason Kelce
TE: Travis Kelce
WRs: DeAndre Hopkins & Mike Evans
RBs: SBarkley
FB: Kyle Juszczek

We would clearly see how great he is. So until we can get those players, or similar players, it's just not fair to judge Jones.


Or we can have:

TE: George Kittle
WR: Larry Fitzgerald (or is he washed up. Seems like everyone wants to do that around here to players not playing lights out any longer)
RB Kamara

same lineman as above

Then ...then we'll know

I am starting to think all these people just thought if we jettison Eli then we'll magically be back in the Super bowl. Especially if it a short passing mobile QB. um no.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think we can truly evaluate Jones...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/28/2020 11:54 am : link
In comment 15027173 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15027160 Black_Flag said:


Quote:



I fail to see the similarities at all.

Eli was a deep throwing ; good arm QB who thrived in play action pass and took what I am sure many would argue too many chances, and hated running.

jones is actually the opposite -- little arm , short passing rpo QB who is very fast and it is his best attribute.



I didn't mean to suggest they were similar by skill sets. But Jones had those intangibles that the romantics at Jints Central crave.

The Raiders manta is "Just Win Baby!"

The Giants mantra is "Just be the 'Giants Way' Baby!"


Ahh - being able to work in Jints Central and the Giants Way in one post. Impressive.

Is a complete fabrication, but impressive!
Well...  
bw in dc : 10/28/2020 11:58 am : link
I try.

But what's the fabrication?
RE: Well...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/28/2020 12:04 pm : link
In comment 15027205 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I try.

But what's the fabrication?


What isn't a fabrication?? "Intangibles" might as well be code for random shit to support a terrible take.

"Romantics at Jints Central"??

Hell, I'd argue that the supposed "Giants way" was a lot more productive than the past few years when several non-Giant way moves have been made:
- Hiring McAdoo
- Hiring Shurmur
- Hiring Judge

Isn't the Giants Way hiring only cronies who bow to the Mara's and kiss the ring? Or do they have to remove the silver spoon from their asses too?
Seriously...  
bw in dc : 10/28/2020 12:07 pm : link
you don't think the Maras/Gettleman/Accorsi/et al were looking for QB to replace Eli that was a newer, improved version of Eli?

Two points  
Go Terps : 10/28/2020 12:22 pm : link
1. Jones's carries haven't gradually increased as the season has gone on.

2. He is averaging 3.4 yards more per rush than pass (9.5 to 6.1), yet he has attempted 200 more passes (231) than rushes (31).
RE: I never read anything from Mara.com  
BigBlueShock : 10/28/2020 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15027169 arniefez said:
Quote:
So here's some cool stats from losers.com:

Daniel Jones 4 wins - 15 loses

Dave Gettleman GM 10 wins - 29 loses

Chris Mara as SR VP Player Personnel 52 wins - 83 loses

You can probably add 2 wins to those totals and another 7 loses by the end of this year.

Cool Stats.

losers.com. Right up your alley. I’m guessing you’re the president?
Well..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/28/2020 12:27 pm : link
the dumbass did have the same misspelling 5 times in one post. So I'm guessing it isn't just a typing error.
Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
Chris684 : 10/28/2020 12:47 pm : link
Let's remember he went to a franchise that had made the playoffs 3 consecutive seasons before finally missing out on the last play of the last week of the regular season before he got there.

Does anyone want to compare the track record of the Ravens before Jackson got there, to the track record of the Giants before Jones got here?

Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.
RE: Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
Chris684 : 10/28/2020 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15027262 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Let's remember he went to a franchise that had made the playoffs 3 consecutive seasons before finally missing out on the last play of the last week of the regular season before he got there.

Does anyone want to compare the track record of the Ravens before Jackson got there, to the track record of the Giants before Jones got here?

Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.


Referencing the 2 playoff games above obviously.
RE: Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
bw in dc : 10/28/2020 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15027262 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Let's remember he went to a franchise that had made the playoffs 3 consecutive seasons before finally missing out on the last play of the last week of the regular season before he got there.

Does anyone want to compare the track record of the Ravens before Jackson got there, to the track record of the Giants before Jones got here?

Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.


But the beauty of the Ravens with LJax is they completely overhauled their offense - that fit Flacco - to fit a completely different player in LJax. It was an incredible display of flexibility and out of the box thinking...
RE: Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
Go Terps : 10/28/2020 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15027262 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Let's remember he went to a franchise that had made the playoffs 3 consecutive seasons before finally missing out on the last play of the last week of the regular season before he got there.

Does anyone want to compare the track record of the Ravens before Jackson got there, to the track record of the Giants before Jones got here?

Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.


Jackson is 24-4 as a starter with a 52/11 TD/INT split, another 14 TDs rushing, an MVP, and an offense that is averaging a little over 30 PPG.

If Jones was doing that this thread wouldn't exist, and everyone here would be going insane over him. People are lauding Jones over getting to 21 points in a loss at Philly - that ain't what life is like for Jackson. Totally different experience.

This place is nuts sometimes with the extent of the homerism.
RE: Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/28/2020 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15027262 Chris684 said:
Quote:


Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.


We're starting a QB that's 4-19 with 61% completion percentage,29 TD and 38 turnovers. See for yourself what people are saying about him.
RE: Jones  
Thegratefulhead : 10/28/2020 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15027075 PaulN said:
Quote:
Is not ever going to be great, or lead the team to a Superbowl, he has flaws that will never be corrected and will get worse, he panics under pressure unless the play called goes perfect so he does not have to think at all. I agree he would do well with a great team, so would just about any NFL QB. I think he could become a decent QB, but never great and never clutch, he will ruin great opportunity, bbi knocked Romo, Jones will never be as good as Romo.
With what expertise do you make these claims? I have heard NFL QBs including Romo make other assertions. If he corrects the turnovers he could be great. He has accuracy, size and athleticism. I think Romo is a reasonable comp and Romo was very good.
Jones  
stretch234 : 10/28/2020 1:48 pm : link
Curious how you do not lock onto your primary read when the expectation is you will be hit immediately. It is not possible to go through any progressions right now with the OL. It also is a fact they go many pass plays with no one open. They Have no speed at WR with Slayton on 1 leg. Yes they have played other teams with injuries, but they still present speed on the outside.

When other teams defenses are getting home with 4-5 people, that leaves 6-7 back and really everyone covered high/low. What defense is worried about getting beat deep by these WR
RE: RE: Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
montanagiant : 10/28/2020 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15027275 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15027262 Chris684 said:


Quote:


Let's remember he went to a franchise that had made the playoffs 3 consecutive seasons before finally missing out on the last play of the last week of the regular season before he got there.

Does anyone want to compare the track record of the Ravens before Jackson got there, to the track record of the Giants before Jones got here?

Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.



Jackson is 24-4 as a starter with a 52/11 TD/INT split, another 14 TDs rushing, an MVP, and an offense that is averaging a little over 30 PPG.

If Jones was doing that this thread wouldn't exist, and everyone here would be going insane over him. People are lauding Jones over getting to 21 points in a loss at Philly - that ain't what life is like for Jackson. Totally different experience.

This place is nuts sometimes with the extent of the homerism.

Come on Terps, look at the difference in personal around Jackson vs Jones, on both sides of the ball it's a huge void between us and them
...  
christian : 10/28/2020 2:00 pm : link
Stats on their own are indicators, but certainly not predictors of success or value. As Britt said in the OP, they're just "cool."

To really evaluate the success and value of a quarterback, you need to take all the stats, the performance of the offense, and the performance of the team to determine if the player is doing well and holding up his end.

Prime example, you look at just the positive Winston stats last year, and you'd be inclined to think that's a good QB.

I'm on the record that Jones has the tools to be a good quarterback, and always felt Jones's wheels were his best asset.

I'm optimistic Judge can take those cool stats, and translate them into success.

RE: RE: RE: Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
Go Terps : 10/28/2020 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15027348 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15027275 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15027262 Chris684 said:


Quote:


Let's remember he went to a franchise that had made the playoffs 3 consecutive seasons before finally missing out on the last play of the last week of the regular season before he got there.

Does anyone want to compare the track record of the Ravens before Jackson got there, to the track record of the Giants before Jones got here?

Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.



Jackson is 24-4 as a starter with a 52/11 TD/INT split, another 14 TDs rushing, an MVP, and an offense that is averaging a little over 30 PPG.

If Jones was doing that this thread wouldn't exist, and everyone here would be going insane over him. People are lauding Jones over getting to 21 points in a loss at Philly - that ain't what life is like for Jackson. Totally different experience.

This place is nuts sometimes with the extent of the homerism.


Come on Terps, look at the difference in personal around Jackson vs Jones, on both sides of the ball it's a huge void between us and them


Including at quarterback, where Jones is not in Jackson's zip code.
RE: Jones  
Black_Flag : 10/28/2020 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15027345 stretch234 said:
Quote:
Curious how you do not lock onto your primary read when the expectation is you will be hit immediately. It is not possible to go through any progressions right now with the OL. It also is a fact they go many pass plays with no one open. They Have no speed at WR with Slayton on 1 leg. Yes they have played other teams with injuries, but they still present speed on the outside.

When other teams defenses are getting home with 4-5 people, that leaves 6-7 back and really everyone covered high/low. What defense is worried about getting beat deep by these WR


Curious how Eli was able to do it against the dolphins last year ; same shit receivers (supposedly) same shit line.
RE: Jones's effectiveness as a rusher is beyond question  
djm : 10/28/2020 4:23 pm : link
In comment 15026724 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He's a really good runner. I've been saying it since last year: RPOs, rollouts, designed QB runs...that's what the offense should be from the outset. He should be featured as a runner, getting 8-12 attempts per game.

So why is he at only 4.4 carries per game?

If he's going to be the guy next year, I would acquire two mobile QBs to back him up and install an offense based on the QB as a runner - like they do in Baltimore. That's how you use Jones...not as a pocket passer.


I agree for the most part. Jones in no way is Lamar Jackson but he's definitely a mobile threat and the offense should be 100% catering to his strengths as a runner. When Jackson was drafted in Balt, the offense there was not 100% ready for his skill set as they still had Flacco in the fold. Once the offseason rolled around and Balt was ready to go 100% with Jackson, they ditched Flacco and restructured the offense around Jackson. the rest is MVP history.

The Ravens did everything they could to prevent Jackson from failing.

PS I'd love to see Jones and Jackson switch places just to settle some of these QB chicken or the egg debates once and for all.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Before we overexaggerate the legend of Lamar Jackson  
Saquads26 : 10/28/2020 4:37 pm : link
In comment 15027355 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15027348 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 15027275 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15027262 Chris684 said:


Quote:


Let's remember he went to a franchise that had made the playoffs 3 consecutive seasons before finally missing out on the last play of the last week of the regular season before he got there.

Does anyone want to compare the track record of the Ravens before Jackson got there, to the track record of the Giants before Jones got here?

Also, I'd hate to think of what would be said about an NYG quarterback if said QB was 0-2 with a 51% completion percentage, 3 TDs and 5 turnovers.



Jackson is 24-4 as a starter with a 52/11 TD/INT split, another 14 TDs rushing, an MVP, and an offense that is averaging a little over 30 PPG.

If Jones was doing that this thread wouldn't exist, and everyone here would be going insane over him. People are lauding Jones over getting to 21 points in a loss at Philly - that ain't what life is like for Jackson. Totally different experience.

This place is nuts sometimes with the extent of the homerism.


Come on Terps, look at the difference in personal around Jackson vs Jones, on both sides of the ball it's a huge void between us and them



Including at quarterback, where Jones is not in Jackson's zip code.


Yes because Jackson is hot garbage
RE: RE: RE: Hey Britt, where in VA do you live?  
Greg from LI : 10/28/2020 5:14 pm : link
In comment 15027078 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
I lived in Bon Air at the time...I moved to Stratford Hills!


South side.....pfffft
I don't think Jackson would be the player he is with the Giants  
Mike from Ohio : 10/28/2020 5:30 pm : link
because I don't think the Giants would have organizationally had the guts to do what Baltimore did - restructure the entire offense. Baltimore was creative and they get the most out of Jackson.

The Giants are putting Jones in situations that are not best for his skillset, and he is struggling with it. Can he get better? Absolutely. But his problems go well beyond the personnel around him. The mental part of the game is the biggest struggle I see for him.

And for those saying Jackson sucks because he is 0-2 in the playoffs, go check out Eli's first two playoff games. Spoiler alert - he was 0-2 with 2 TDs and 4 INTs.
how many times do you want them to call that fucking bootleg?  
Black_Flag : 10/28/2020 9:24 pm : link
you see one big play that fooled a couple of defenses for large gains . they don't care about that. they will let jones have it knowing full well they won't fall for it again.

Other mobile QBs take off when a play breaks down. Jones lacks that pocket presence. He also can't run outside the pocket and throw well consistently. Others can.
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