Assuming this will be the final year of the Dave Gettleman era is it fair to think a new GM will sell Saquon to the highest bidder and get more draft picks for a rebuild?
I know it sucks but this roster is in need of a lot of talent and the only way that happens is hitting on picks. I think paying Barkley a huge contract after next season is not going to help this franchise long term.
What are we thinking? Have we seen Saquons last game in blue?
I know ACLs aren't the automatic career-killers they once were. But how many Giants have actually come back strong from any serious leg injury in the past twenty years? Saquon's is pretty bad, especially when you factor in the position he plays.
Certainly, a new GM might decide to move on from Saquon Barkley. It won't be because an irresistible trade offer comes in, though. It will be because the new GM decides to treat the #2 pick in the 2018 draft, and the attendant investment of at least $25MM, as a sunk cost.
As others have said, a strong start by Barkley in 2021, in the midst of another lost season for the team, might revive trade talk. Until then, though, I can't image there being a market.
Which, IMV, makes paying SB another contract even less reasonable.
And as mentioned above, a new GM will have no ties to Barkley and hopefully thinks smarter when drafting running backs than his predecessor.
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!
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will likely look for a GM that tells them Barkley is a vital piece of the team moving forward, assuming he's healthy. I don't think ownership is going to hire someone who tells them they have made a bunch of mistakes.
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!
Eye-rolling that anyone needs to tell Ownership they have made a bunch of mistakes.
Do they still publish the standings in the Sports pages?
Yea you're not helping. And cmon, you know this is hyperbole.
Guys makes one trade for a VET and now DG has been cast as some reckless lunatic with a 1980s Steinbrenner mentality. Sorry, this is a crock of shit.
Again though, friendly reminder, he made ONE trade for a vet that was 25 at the time, during the season. ONe. And he wasn't hurt.
Barkley isn't getting traded so forget it. He is also untradeable.
Again though, friendly reminder, he made ONE trade for a vet that was 25 at the time, during the season. ONe. And he wasn't hurt.
Yeah, everything else he has done has worked out super. Except this one thing.
Maybe. Or someone needs more practice :-)
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needs work.
Maybe. Or someone needs more practice :-)
I meant djm. But it's entirely possible given how much sleep I don't get with a toddler.
I'd rather Jones demonstrate he can actually carry a team, like he should based on his draft slot, than Barkley running for big yards and leaping over defenders. Because at the end of the day, and I know this is Captain Obvious territory, Jones will impact Wins more than Barkley...
I could easily see Ownership looking at Judge, JOnes and some of the better FA hits (Bradberry, Martinez, Fackrel - for example) and deciding DG has done enough good to let him continue the build.
God, I hope not.
I could easily see Ownership looking at Judge, JOnes and some of the better FA hits (Bradberry, Martinez, Fackrel - for example) and deciding DG has done enough good to let him continue the build.
God, I hope not.
Agreed. Plus, the Covid factor. I think the odds right now are Even that Gettleman stays...
I could easily see Ownership looking at Judge, JOnes and some of the better FA hits (Bradberry, Martinez, Fackrel - for example) and deciding DG has done enough good to let him continue the build.
God, I hope not.
There seems to be a lot of stuff floated still that it is DG or Abrams, now I think part of this is, and it can't be underrated that the Giants perennially think they are better than they actually are. I could see them assuming they would finish 5-11 and will be able to sell this. I've been on the fence on if they actually have the cojones to do this but I don't think it is as automatic that they keep one of those guys in charge at 2-14 or 3-13
That said, whatever you trade SB for is not going to match the talent, which remains our greatest need. We have one difference maker on the roster. We need a whole lot more of that, not less.
Routinely come back yes, but better than before is still the exception, not the rule. ACL isn't the career eneder it used to be but it's also not as succesful in reurning players to pre injury levels like Tommy John surgery. Very few players exceed their pre-injury production. For every Adrian Peterson, there are 10 guys who flamed out.
Becasue of Barkley's pure athletic ability, he may come back and be successful, but the question is, will he ever reach or exceed pre-injury production? One example I hope is realistic for Barkley is Edgerrin James. Productive career post ACL, but never quite matched his pre-injury production. Consensus was that he wasn't quire the same post injury. I think we would all sign-up for something like that, but again, his production declined post surgery even though it was still above average.
Banking on Barkley coming back to pre-injury level is a very risky strategy.
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what is that based on? Athletes routinely come back from ACL surgeries now, some of the time better than before. Von Miller tore his ACL in 2013 and then became an all pro and Super Bowl MVP. What are you talking about?
Routinely come back yes, but better than before is still the exception, not the rule. ACL isn't the career eneder it used to be but it's also not as succesful in reurning players to pre injury levels like Tommy John surgery. Very few players exceed their pre-injury production. For every Adrian Peterson, there are 10 guys who flamed out.
Becasue of Barkley's pure athletic ability, he may come back and be successful, but the question is, will he ever reach or exceed pre-injury production? One example I hope is realistic for Barkley is Edgerrin James. Productive career post ACL, but never quite matched his pre-injury production. Consensus was that he wasn't quire the same post injury. I think we would all sign-up for something like that, but again, his production declined post surgery even though it was still above average.
Banking on Barkley coming back to pre-injury level is a very risky strategy.
And again, the Giants will have to make a decision to extend / not extend him before they know if he's going to be all the way back. So what do they do? He may end up leaving just because the Giants want to wait and let him go to FA. If you were him, wouldn't you want to go to a team better set up for his skill set (that is, with a competent OL) for less money on a prove-it deal?
The reason you don't take an RB this high is their careers are short. There are a lot of scenarios where his career comes to an end here.
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In comment 15027367 ryanmkeane said:
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what is that based on? Athletes routinely come back from ACL surgeries now, some of the time better than before. Von Miller tore his ACL in 2013 and then became an all pro and Super Bowl MVP. What are you talking about?
Routinely come back yes, but better than before is still the exception, not the rule. ACL isn't the career eneder it used to be but it's also not as succesful in reurning players to pre injury levels like Tommy John surgery. Very few players exceed their pre-injury production. For every Adrian Peterson, there are 10 guys who flamed out.
Becasue of Barkley's pure athletic ability, he may come back and be successful, but the question is, will he ever reach or exceed pre-injury production? One example I hope is realistic for Barkley is Edgerrin James. Productive career post ACL, but never quite matched his pre-injury production. Consensus was that he wasn't quire the same post injury. I think we would all sign-up for something like that, but again, his production declined post surgery even though it was still above average.
Banking on Barkley coming back to pre-injury level is a very risky strategy.
And again, the Giants will have to make a decision to extend / not extend him before they know if he's going to be all the way back. So what do they do? He may end up leaving just because the Giants want to wait and let him go to FA. If you were him, wouldn't you want to go to a team better set up for his skill set (that is, with a competent OL) for less money on a prove-it deal?
The reason you don't take an RB this high is their careers are short. There are a lot of scenarios where his career comes to an end here.
Truth is he'll be entering his 4th year, plus has taken an undue amount of punishment due to our horrible offensive line - he's been injured or out for the majority of the last 2 seasons. We may have already seen his peak.
You have to look at the money here along with the actual utility of Barks on the football field. Saquon is a gadget back that doesn’t pass protect and runs meh routes. He disappears for entire games. There’s real questions about his willing to take contact - which is really bad trait in an NFL RB1.
Yeah, he was a threat to score any time he touched the ball. But it’s not like he did score every time he touched the ball. And for actual production on the field, even with the big games and really cool oh wow plays, Barks was too expensive. Now he’s a question mark with a serious injury and the last year of a rookie deal that overpays for a RB1 drafted too high.
But, to answer, yeah a new GM should look to trade anyone on this team. The Giants aren’t close and don’t have a legit difference maker on the team.
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In comment 15027476 JonC said:
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needs work.
Maybe. Or someone needs more practice :-)
I meant djm. But it's entirely possible given how much sleep I don't get with a toddler.
Ha...good luck with that. And i mean both.
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what is that based on? Athletes routinely come back from ACL surgeries now, some of the time better than before. Von Miller tore his ACL in 2013 and then became an all pro and Super Bowl MVP. What are you talking about?
Routinely come back yes, but better than before is still the exception, not the rule. ACL isn't the career eneder it used to be but it's also not as succesful in reurning players to pre injury levels like Tommy John surgery. Very few players exceed their pre-injury production. For every Adrian Peterson, there are 10 guys who flamed out.
Becasue of Barkley's pure athletic ability, he may come back and be successful, but the question is, will he ever reach or exceed pre-injury production? One example I hope is realistic for Barkley is Edgerrin James. Productive career post ACL, but never quite matched his pre-injury production. Consensus was that he wasn't quire the same post injury. I think we would all sign-up for something like that, but again, his production declined post surgery even though it was still above average.
Banking on Barkley coming back to pre-injury level is a very risky strategy.
Yep.
And while I understand how difficult it is for some on BBI to think objectively with regards to their favorite Giants, it's more than just a risky strategy...its a strategy they don't even want take because very good RBs are not difficult to scout, draft and play immediately.
Hopefully his surgery and rehab goes well. You know he is the standup guy that will try to do everything possible to get himself ready to play asap. Let him show his stuff for a bit and lets see what is best for the team.
Fucking brilliant...
Eric.. where do you find these people and is there any way to require some kind of IQ test before anyone can get a login?
Fucking brilliant...
Eric.. where do you find these people and is there any way to require some kind of IQ test before anyone can get a login?
Oh my. Where do we find people like you? Are you seeing a lot of posters above that says trade him while recovering.
As a quick aside...what's your IQ?
If Barkley was healthy, a smart GM would trade him. But why trade him when he is coming off an injury and there is no replacement?
My preference to not trade Barkley is not based off of how good he is/can be. He's the wrong type of back for this team and has been since he was drafted. It's more about cost/benefit valuation, available cap space, and selling at a low.
You're not gonna get more than a 2nd round pick for him. Not worth trading him.
This would be my ideal scenario.
Somewhere you need to hang on to your serviceable players and build off of them.
A player like Zeitler may be replaceable and may be tradeable because of Lemieux, but we do not know if he is ready. Tate, who cares. Dalvin Tomlinson. He's not a Probowler, but he is competent. Can you trade him? Maybe but who do you replace him with this year and next year?
Somewhere you need to hang on to your serviceable players and build off of them.
A player like Zeitler may be replaceable and may be tradeable because of Lemieux, but we do not know if he is ready. Tate, who cares. Dalvin Tomlinson. He's not a Probowler, but he is competent. Can you trade him? Maybe but who do you replace him with this year and next year?
Relax section. You trade off pieces that aren’t additive. If you do it correctly then you pay less for the players you bring in that you think are additive. It’s called a plan...something this GM hasn’t developed since Day 1 on the job.
Really? You can find lots of guys that do that. I think people dont realize the effect that Saquon Barkley just being in the backfield has on defenses. Scheme and focus are on him full stop everytime he's on the field. Lose that and all of a sudden everything else on offense gets harder. It's unfortunate our offensive line was so atrocious the first two weeks, really forgetting how special he is.
I do agree he looks like he was forcing it a lot in the limited time we saw him this year. That happens when you have a superstar like him and he isn't getting that many chances to show you what he can do, so on the rare occasion he saw some daylight he was tiring to make more happen then was there. Put Saquon behind what this line looks like now and he's reeling off 100 yards rushing like clockwork. That our pass game looks infinitely better.
I will say I was gutted when he was hurt because out the only chance of us having a consistent offense this year was over and we may never see the same guy again, but after seeing the surgeon he's seeing and his past patients I feel a lot better.
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rehabilitating an ACL repair and before he proves that he can play football again.
Fucking brilliant...
Eric.. where do you find these people and is there any way to require some kind of IQ test before anyone can get a login?
Oh my. Where do we find people like you? Are you seeing a lot of posters above that says trade him while recovering.
As a quick aside...what's your IQ?
It is obviously not very high if I am back here responding in this thread.
Meanwhile, the OP was suggesting that DG would be fired after this season and a new GM would trade Barkley to begin the rebuild.
Moving on.
Moving on.
I think if the question was whether a new GM would look to trade Barkley after he returned from injury... then yes worth discussing.
Agree to move on
OK so I am supposed to believe a running back who hasn't shown you anything in 2 years would have done something if something else occurred ?
uh OK. So why hasn't he done it in 2 years? He is a pussy who doesn't want to get hit. Look at Henry ; total stud. Can dominate a game. I have seen him in PLAY OFF GAMES be the only player to have touches on TD drives where he scores after 6 plays. 6 plays all Henry. Total stud.
Never seen saqwah do anything like that .. doubt i ever will. But then again running backs aren't supposed to. They aren't that important .... total waste of a pick at 2. Cut bait and move on.
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In comment 15027244 Black_Flag said:
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And free up that money toward the cap. They won't anyway. They'll just pretend they can still win w/ these guys and so will everyone else. Despite all evidence to the contrary.
You're an angry dude.
You forgot irretrievably stupid
oh and you're smart. you probably liked the pick at #2 and think you can still win a championship with a running back as your best player. This isn't the 1978 NFL. (and i doubt you could win with RB as your best player then either)
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Gallman had against the eagles and washington, he'd probably have taken a couple for 30 plus yards
OK so I am supposed to believe a running back who hasn't shown you anything in 2 years would have done something if something else occurred ?
uh OK. So why hasn't he done it in 2 years? He is a pussy who doesn't want to get hit. Look at Henry ; total stud. Can dominate a game. I have seen him in PLAY OFF GAMES be the only player to have touches on TD drives where he scores after 6 plays. 6 plays all Henry. Total stud.
Never seen saqwah do anything like that .. doubt i ever will. But then again running backs aren't supposed to. They aren't that important .... total waste of a pick at 2. Cut bait and move on.
You're ridiculous and you just make crap up. Got back to Ganggreen, the Jets board.
Saquon rookie year -
1307 yds rushing, (5 yd avg), 721 yds rec
Saquon yr 2 (13 games) -
1003 yds rushing (4.6 avg), 438 yds receiving
He's done it every year with a crappy line, and don't give me this bull he doesn't run hard. Thats not a wasted pick, that's a stud.
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Routinely come back yes, but better than before is still the exception, not the rule. ACL isn't the career eneder it used to be but it's also not as succesful in reurning players to pre injury levels like Tommy John surgery. Very few players exceed their pre-injury production. For every Adrian Peterson, there are 10 guys who flamed out.
Becasue of Barkley's pure athletic ability, he may come back and be successful, but the question is, will he ever reach or exceed pre-injury production? One example I hope is realistic for Barkley is Edgerrin James. Productive career post ACL, but never quite matched his pre-injury production. Consensus was that he wasn't quire the same post injury. I think we would all sign-up for something like that, but again, his production declined post surgery even though it was still above average.
Banking on Barkley coming back to pre-injury level is a very risky strategy.
I think you need to see the surgeon's client list. I was worried about this myself, but damn the guy seems to be a wizard at fixing acl's. Almost all the guys I saw were the exact same player 2 years post injury depending on age and Saquons young. The funny thing is I think we see similar numbers to his rookie year just because the offensive line looks better right now than anything he's ran behind in Blue. Which is sad to say, but true.
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In comment 15027328 Now Mike in MD said:
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Gallman had against the eagles and washington, he'd probably have taken a couple for 30 plus yards
OK so I am supposed to believe a running back who hasn't shown you anything in 2 years would have done something if something else occurred ?
uh OK. So why hasn't he done it in 2 years? He is a pussy who doesn't want to get hit. Look at Henry ; total stud. Can dominate a game. I have seen him in PLAY OFF GAMES be the only player to have touches on TD drives where he scores after 6 plays. 6 plays all Henry. Total stud.
Never seen saqwah do anything like that .. doubt i ever will. But then again running backs aren't supposed to. They aren't that important .... total waste of a pick at 2. Cut bait and move on.
You're ridiculous and you just make crap up. Got back to Ganggreen, the Jets board.
Saquon rookie year -
1307 yds rushing, (5 yd avg), 721 yds rec
Saquon yr 2 (13 games) -
1003 yds rushing (4.6 avg), 438 yds receiving
He's done it every year with a crappy line, and don't give me this bull he doesn't run hard. Thats not a wasted pick, that's a stud.
How is that making stuff up? The numbers are tricky with him and averages. He runs for losses all the time which kill drives leaving the team in situations where it is like 2nd 13. Other times he breaks one -- but never once in a critical situation where he has single handedly won a game and/or he dominated game.
Heck those numbers closely resemble Freeman/Gallman running Avg. in the cowboys game. Two backs they got off the scrap pile.
Go ahead and name a drive in a playoff game where it was all Saquin scoring a TD like Henry and dominating and WINNING GAMES FOR HIS TEAAM. You can't -- they don't exist. Meanwhile he is a liability if anything. That is not making stuff up -- that is facts.
He did play you know ...this year. Th numbers are not particularly good.
We have superstar talent supposedly at RB and QB that does not put up dominating performances because other people have not done their jobs.
I would think picks that are #6 and #2 work the other way around. They make average lines and receivers look better.
But no our supposed superstars need Fitzgerald at receiver ; Kittle at TE , other pro bowlers to play Tackle and Center and Guard and then this team can win some games. Um got it.
What can't you just admit that resume Dave's critics got it right and his stupid decisions and trades are a set back? This team has one 1 win it shouldn't be rocket science.
Second he is hurt
Third he is an inconsistent boom or bust runner, not a good thing (I have posted on this many times)
Fourth he can't run block
Fifth way too much of his receiving yards on are meaningless dump offs that either don't get a first down, or are in garbage time. This is reflected in his meh DVOA rating in FO for receptions by RBs. (I also posted this last week)
Sixth despite what this board believes he doesn't draw the defense's attention nearly as much as people think
Here are the stats for rushes vs. an 8+ man front. In 2018 he faced 8+ man fronts just under 23% of the time, which was only slightly over league average... In 2019 he only faced 8+ man fronts 11.5% of the time, about half the league average. Teams figured out that they can sit in 2 deep zones, stop the pass and Barkley and the Giants still couldn't beat them with the run. I'm not sure what you could get for Barkley right now, but I doubt its more than a 3rd, maybe not even that, especially when you consider his salary.
For reference Derrick Henry saw the most stacked fronts during the 2019 regular season with 107 (24 more than anybody else). He is also not stopped by 8+ man fronts, including the playoffs he gained 729 yards on 135 carries and 13 TDs. He averaged a healthy 5.4 YPC.
Here are the regular stats...
YEAR 2018
Player %8+Fronts Att Att vs 8+
Garrette Blount 38.96 154 60
Royce Freeman 36.15 130 47
Leonard Fournette 35.34 133 47
Carlos Hyde 34.3 172 59
Alfred Morris 34.23 111 38
Nick Chubb 33.85 192 65
Alex Collins 33.33 114 38
Derrick Henry 32.09 215 69
Mark Ingram 31.88 138 44
Austin Ekeler 28.3 106 30
James Conner 27.91 215 60
Latavius Murray 27.86 140 39
Sony Michel 26.79 209 56
Isaiah Crowell 26.57 143 38
Dion Lewis 25.81 155 40
Tevin Coleman 25.75 167 43
Melvin Gordon 25.71 175 45
Matt Breida 25.49 153 39
Elijah McGuire 25 92 23
Ezekiel Elliott 24.67 304 75
David Johnson 24.03 258 62
Lamar Miller 23.33 210 49
Marlon Mack 23.08 195 45
Saquon Barkley 22.99 261 60
Alfred Blue 22.67 150 34
Peyton Barber 22.65 234 53
Marshawn Lynch 22.22 90 20
Alvin Kamara 22.16 194 43
Chris Carson 21.86 247 54
Kerryon Johnson 21.19 118 25
T.J. Yeldon 21.15 104 22
Ito Smith 21.11 90 19
Doug Martin 20.93 172 36
Chris Ivory 20.87 115 24
Christian McCaffrey 19.63 219 43
Dalvin Cook 18.05 133 24
Gus Edwards 16.79 137 23
Adrian Peterson 16.73 251 42
Josh Adams 16.67 120 20
LeSean McCoy 16.15 161 26
Joe Mixon 16.03 237 38
Kareem Hunt 15.47 181 28
Phillip Lindsay 14.06 192 27
Jordan Howard 14 250 35
Aaron Jones 13.53 133 18
Frank Gore 12.18 156 19
Nyheim Hines 11.76 85 10
James White 11.7 94 11
Mike Davis 11.61 112 13
Jamaal Williams 11.57 121 14
Rashaad Penny 10.59 85 9
Kenyan Drake 10 120 12
Todd Gurley 7.81 256 20
Wendell Smallwood 6.9 87 6
Tarik Cohen 5.05 99 5
total 21.87957231 8885 1944
YEAR 2019
Tevin Coleman 40.15 137 55
Benny Snell 39.81 108 43
Frank Gore 37.35 166 62
Latavius Murray 35.62 146 52
Derrick Henry 35.31 303 107
Alexander Mattison 34 100 34
Sony Michel 33.6 247 83
Peyton Barber 33.12 154 51
Raheem Mostert 32.12 137 44
Leonard Fournette 31.7 265 84
Matt Breida 30.08 123 37
Adrian Peterson 29.38 211 62
Kerryon Johnson 29.2 113 33
Ronald Jones 26.16 172 45
Todd Gurley 24.22 223 54
Dalvin Cook 24 250 60
Christian McCaffrey 23.34 287 67
Devonta Freeman 22.83 184 42
Gus Edwards 22.56 133 30
Mark Ingram 22.28 202 45
Chris Carson 21.22 278 59
Aaron Jones 20.76 236 49
Jamaal Williams 20.56 107 22
Josh Jacobs 20.25 242 49
Bo Scarbrough 20.22 89 18
David Montgomery 19.83 242 48
Ezekiel Elliott 19.27 301 58
Jordan Howard 17.65 119 21
Le'Veon Bell 17.14 245 42
Phillip Lindsay 16.52 224 37
Alvin Kamara 16.37 171 28
Royce Freeman 15.91 132 21
DeAndre Washington 14.81 108 16
Carlos Hyde 14.69 245 36
James Conner 13.79 116 16
Nick Chubb 13.09 298 39
Tony Pollard 12.79 86 11
Melvin Gordon 12.35 162 20
Marlon Mack 12.15 247 30
Miles Sanders 11.73 179 21
Saquon Barkley 11.52 217 25
LeSean McCoy 10.89 101 11
Austin Ekeler 10.61 132 14
Kenyan Drake 8.82 170 15
Damien Williams 8.11 111 9
Joe Mixon 7.91 278 22
David Johnson 5.32 94 5
Devin Singletary 5.3 151 8
total 21.04781515 8742 1840