Much ink has been spilled on DG and the problems of the front office but I wanted to focus it on a particular issue that has been a concern of mine. I've highlighted DG's attitude and how it didn't seem to meld with modern organizational psychology. Things like personalizing learning styles and understanding respect is a two way street, hard to get away with expecting everyone to be subservient to you. The more in demand a person is the more power they have these days and it is much easier to stand out in a bad way if you don't operate from this place.
It's been my assertion that because the Giants have refused to even understand how the tide is changing, to evolve the thinking in the building, they also don't even understand how to properly value players. They purge people based on "character" then draft players like Baker. It seems like they are looking for people that say, yes sir, no sir as opposed to actually understanding that these days some people will say that to your face and not follow through.
Sitting in a room with someone, looking them in the eye, cannot be underrated but it took me about 3 seconds of being in a room with Daniel Jones to pick up on what have been serious visible flaws of his personality showing up in his game.
My take from the 2019 town hall:
I had a different take on Daniel Jones completely
NoGainDayne : 6/12/2019 12:31 am : link
I hope he has more confidence on an NFL field than he has in front of crowds with public speaking (quite possible).
He looked like a deer in the headlights, you could feel the nervousness he had, it was palpable. He walked to the wrong chair and had to be pointed in the direction of the right chair.
Lawrence was the captivating guy. The guy the others respected as a rookie. He had a presence. |
Some select DG quotes:
The kid has been well trained. The huge part of this, and I’ve said it before, a big part of this is his make-up.
I made up my mind that I was staying for the game and, frankly, he walked out there and I saw a professional quarterback after the three series that I watched, I saw a professional quarterback. I was in full bloom love.
That’s like a bonus here. This kid is really talented, a really talented football player, and the head makes him more better. |
Notes from tonight's (2019) "Giants Town Hall" event - (
New Window )
This is the post that apparently insulted you. Really? You wrote a self serving piece that BBI was supposed to bow down to and we didn’t.
And this came after you didn’t like my Kyler Murray opinion and how awful his body language was in interviews. Post 2018 season getting ready to draft, pundits and posters talked about how terrible he was in interviews, how wishy washy he was between baseball and football and all the red flags. These are all characteristics people noticed after being in the room with him for 3 seconds or listening to him speak. So I’ll ask again, how’d that turn out? Did the goal post move disqualifying Murray’s negative EQ traits? What will the excuse be?
If you havent noticed most people on this thread have a problem with the way you present information and post with such certainty. There’s a reason why so many of your threads blow up in your face.
Patience, although at its hardest to give, is absolutely essential in watching efforts at the bottom of a drawn out performance cycle...in sports teams and business turnarounds.
Anyone who thought we were ever going to a winning season or do better than an 0-4 start was dreaming those outcomes up and insisting they were reasonable. Those are and never were the yardsticks one would use to "see" if there is progress. I dont know about you but to me the whole season is a better yardstick with a young team where the key is "how much of a core do we have to build on?"
Frankly, I dont yet see an encouraging core. But I most likely never would have seen it after 6 games unless they were playing way above their heads with luck thrown in.
And my summer commentary said exactly that over and over again...and so did many a "realistic" poster (usually then labelled an optimist so they stopped posting. Discouraged away by drivel.
As soon as 2 games came up (as they always should have been expected to) then the cliches returned.
I get it ...all are tired of losing. Doesnt happen because we are tired of losing or all of a sudden.
Watching most sports teams is frustrating. Period. Full Stop. Sometimes lowering ones level of intensity about the process is helpful
I get this and I've been a sports fan for a long time and never felt remotely this way about a team.
It feels like the Giants talk a lot about caring about their fans but that honestly feels like all talk.
At least James Dolan doesn't try to convince anyone that he cares.
It feels like the Giants make a big show of caring and making improvements and don't ever do the real work of improving their processes and it would be nice if they just went full Dolan or made the real changes TBH.
I had a very frustrating interaction in the offseason that I think you are at least tacitly aware of where someone close to the team and front office talked about how stupid anyone was for thinking that Gettleman wasn't the right guy. How much "smarter" Gettleman and all the Giants front office are than fan perception.
I'm just wondering when all this intelligence is going to display on the field and it just honestly feels like the team doesn't mind giving the middle finger to their fan base. Keeping Gettleman, this process where it feels like we are destined for DG or Abrams. It feels like they are putting this internal Giants family before the larger Giants family. And honestly that's coming at a time when the world feels like it's making a lot of choices for a smaller group of people while a larger group of people gets fucked over.
It would be great if it felt like people running the Giants even cared about their fans in ways reflected in their actions not some nice words a few times a year.
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I just don’t care. You want to hold onto how a GM sells a pick, go right ahead. Don’t care about that stuff personally but if you want to write a puff piece about your self like you did in the OP don’t let me stop you.
This is the post that apparently insulted you. Really? You wrote a self serving piece that BBI was supposed to bow down to and we didn’t.
And this came after you didn’t like my Kyler Murray opinion and how awful his body language was in interviews. Post 2018 season getting ready to draft, pundits and posters talked about how terrible he was in interviews, how wishy washy he was between baseball and football and all the red flags. These are all characteristics people noticed after being in the room with him for 3 seconds or listening to him speak. So I’ll ask again, how’d that turn out? Did the goal post move disqualifying Murray’s negative EQ traits? What will the excuse be?
If you havent noticed most people on this thread have a problem with the way you present information and post with such certainty. There’s a reason why so many of your threads blow up in your face.
Show me "all my threads" that blow up in my face. I've started very few over the years, but please, by all means, show me your evidence.
You’re right man, is me not you. Enjoy your day.
2015 - 2017 - all moves made in those years were for the benefit of Eli. Eli was not being traded, released or cut. So, they had to continue to try to build a winning team around him. That's the Owner's call.
2017 - 2019 - Remnants of Eli still on the roster and now you have to start finishing the tear down.
2020 - Year 1 of rebuild. New HC
The draft part of the process is simple also. The GM does not have final say on draft picks. It's been stated many times, even by Gettleman himself. Draft picks are voted on by committee, with Owner, Chris Mara, GM on the committee.
So stop beating yourself over something you will never figure out because it is not one person making the decisions..
P.S. The Owner is more involved than people think..
Swimming upstream is fine (Look at Terps, everyone disparaged him, but he was right most of the time) but I think Steve's recommendation above is the right one.
Don't stop posting, I appreciate your insight as well of others like McL.
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It’s literally the same cast of characters that
NoGainDayne : 11:04 am : link : reply
have always criticized my posts all coming together.
I don't post as often as I used to, and I certainly don't generally get involved in these threads of yours that seemingly appear on a regular basis. And I apologize if this comes across rude because I'm not trying to be rude but instead just a little blunt since you don't seem to be willing to consider any of the criticism directed at you but instead dismiss it out of hand as just "the same cast of characters"
But as someone that isn't a regularly character" as you suggest I'll offer my take. You come across as someone that has a desire to create posts that you hope will wow people with your insight, but most often seem to be more blather than substance. Then when/if criticized instead of even considering any of it, you get defensive and dig in deeper
I have been on this site for about twenty five years and over that span of time there has been a handful of posters that seem to have a desperate need for attention and like clockwork they keep posting threads trying to impress with something only they supposedly understand but are willing to share with the rest of us. You are starting to fall into that category of posters.
If you take nothing else from my post, please just try and take the effort to self reflect a little more about why you so often find yourself in similar debates that go around and around with similar people, on similar topics of discussions.
I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. One thing I learned a long time ago when posting on forums is that before I hit submit on a long or emotional post is to sit back and re-read it and try to look at it objectively. If you find that you never delete rather than post, it could be a red flag that you may want to self edit more strictly.
Can’t remember the last time I tried to be “right” on a football topic. I don’t visit this site to persuade others to think like I do, which I think is the problem with this thread. Add on top of it that there’s no way to prove any of these theories and well, you get this. I brought up a legitimate question contesting what was in the OP using an example of Murray who had quite possibly the most supposed red flags and character concerns I’ve ever seen in a #1 overall pick - I never got and answer on it.
Um, Eli's an outlier.
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Eli says hi.
Um, Eli's an outlier.
For sure. He's easily the dopiest looking slack jawed Gomer Pyle like hayseed to ever win an SB MVP award.
Let alone two of them.
But only a Manning could ever pull that off, right?
And this guy Jones, he's nothing like a Manning...
1) Contrary opinions with supporting facts and reasons are great. No need to rise to anyones defense for a good contrarian post
2) No one should stop posting
3) Everyone should try to be a better poster...especially posters who start threads or who post a lot
3) There is a huge difference between 1-3 and non-sensical posts followed by attacks on everyone who points out the flaws in the opinion.
A grown adult submitted that he could tell based on 3 seconds exposure in a non football setting (before any games had been played as a NYG)/NFL player) that a draftee had a fatal flaw and that this reflects on the GM and the Front Office in General.
Jim, you know this is not contrarian viewpoint.
No one yet knows how Jones will turn out. No one. NFL history is loaded with examples of even HOF QB who needed 2-5 years to show how good they were.
All NFL QB have a wide range of personal strengths and weaknesses that may show up in media events, marriages, comments to the media, after losses and with certain teammates and certain coaches or with fans who bother them in hotel lobby's.
So far we know from many exchanges over 3 seconds long that Jones has media handling presence that is Jeter like.
So far we see great and damaging aspects of his play and do not know how correctable they are via personal or talent on offense or scheme changes. We dont know. No one yet knows for sure well enough to through away the obvious strengths and talent and clues as to his make up.
He aint awkward when he wins.
Meanwhile, we do know from how others have judged us for decades when we have off moments or bad first impressions we did not mean that any give 3 seconds gives no clue as to our future and no clue as to how someone elses future is going to work out. None. As in None.
Every adult knows this is a universal truth about 3 seconds of human observation into 3 seconds of anothers 3 seconds.
I once saw some British folks musicians dressed in Edwardian frilly costumes with haircuts straight out of Thomas Gainsborough portraits of children of nobility singing a sweet melody behind a lead guitar playing a 16th Century madrigal found in monasteries and country faires.
3 seconds of "As Tears Go By" revealed proof that the lead singer would never make half a billion over 50 years playing in your face raunch in between having 9 children by 9000 possible mothers. The madrigal folks lead guitarist would also never make half a billion over fifty years in between 9 arrests for 9000 pounds of illegal drugs.
I once went to the basement of St Marks church in the Village on Tuesday nights when they had 2-3 of the latest talents who signed record deals that month. ( for a dollar admittance fee and $2 for a pitcher of Rolling Rock).
I saw 3 minutes of the third act one Tuesday and from the first song it was awful. Bad sound, out of tune, disjointed drums and guitars badly played and words hard to hear from scruffy amatuers from New Jersey of all places.
Guy literally apologized after the first song while they tried to get the sound mix right. Mumbled something about not being finished the song and still working on where to take the characters he introduced in the song.
We were ready to walk out. If he couldn't talk and hadn't finished the song why waste our time?
Said the only thing he was certain was that he was calling the song "Thunder Road"
3 seconds of EQ said what?
Seriously, I thought this thread would die days ago. I can't believe NGD has defenders.
Its not like this poster is cluttering up a normal thread with his posts and ruining ypur day. I have never understood why posters click on a clearly marked thread where the topic being discussed is apparent and then bitch about what's being talked about.
Bill, hope all is well man! Miss your posts on larger subjects that we used to have on BBI.
Not saying I agree with his post, I don't. But I do agree that he has nailed a point that the Giants are behind in assessing data. And many of his posts tie into that.
That's what I enjoy about BBI though, before NGD, we weren't discussing this at all, but its relevant and I love reading about it.
Its the internet so expecting behavior is not realistic, is it? I mean you see stuff here, would never be said face to face.
So be well man, I always read your stuff too!
Take any losing team over a period of time and you can basically levy any complaint against them and then go "Aha! It's true" and point to the poor record and failed moves as evidence.
Where NGD continually fails is that he posts as if he has added insight. He posts as if he knows what is going on with the team hen he's doing things like trolling LinkedIn and parsing comments from press conferences, or in this case, making some asinine comment from a Town Hall.
It's what he does. And when he's challenged, he gets offended.
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For the sake of sanity please make this shit stop
Its not like this poster is cluttering up a normal thread with his posts and ruining ypur day. I have never understood why posters click on a clearly marked thread where the topic being discussed is apparent and then bitch about what's being talked about.
I see your point and it's a valid one but my point is that in this case Chopper, it's a weekly thing and the goalposts seem to be always moving with this argument by the OP. it seems to be more about him validating himself than actually anything with the Giants IMO.
Your points should have been said as well. My thoughts include encouraging NGD and good posting in general.
Between us we covered the waterfront
( Are you as historical an artifact as I am to have remember the emergence of Springsteen or the shrouded in innocence images the powers that be thought were necessary to introduce the Beatles and the Stones ( and for that matter all of the early British Invasion) ?
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In comment 15029972 montanagiant said:
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For the sake of sanity please make this shit stop
Its not like this poster is cluttering up a normal thread with his posts and ruining ypur day. I have never understood why posters click on a clearly marked thread where the topic being discussed is apparent and then bitch about what's being talked about.
I see your point and it's a valid one but my point is that in this case Chopper, it's a weekly thing and the goalposts seem to be always moving with this argument by the OP. it seems to be more about him validating himself than actually anything with the Giants IMO.
Fair enough, I guess I hadnt noticed that from him. Carry on...just seemed like a curious practice.
That's not the behavior of a normally adjusted person who wants to have discussion on a message board - it is the behavior of a person who wants to be looked at as an expert. Something he's failing to do in his actual argumentation.
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In comment 15029986 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15029972 montanagiant said:
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For the sake of sanity please make this shit stop
Its not like this poster is cluttering up a normal thread with his posts and ruining ypur day. I have never understood why posters click on a clearly marked thread where the topic being discussed is apparent and then bitch about what's being talked about.
I see your point and it's a valid one but my point is that in this case Chopper, it's a weekly thing and the goalposts seem to be always moving with this argument by the OP. it seems to be more about him validating himself than actually anything with the Giants IMO.
Fair enough, I guess I hadnt noticed that from him. Carry on...just seemed like a curious practice.
No worries Chopper.
That's not the behavior of a normally adjusted person who wants to have discussion on a message board - it is the behavior of a person who wants to be looked at as an expert. Something he's failing to do in his actual argumentation.
It's like Matt in Syracuse all over again
That's not the behavior of a normally adjusted person who wants to have discussion on a message board - it is the behavior of a person who wants to be looked at as an expert. Something he's failing to do in his actual argumentation.
Deeply insecure behavior and the fact he can’t just admit and work to change, but instead doubles down is unfortunately keeps people from unlocking their true potential.
Jason Pierre-Paul – traded, was said to work ethic issues
Prince Amukamara – let go after first contract, rumblings of work ethic issues
David Wilson – highly questioned pick based on team needs and positional value
Justin Pugh – let go after first contract, was said to have attitude problems
Odell Beckham Jr. – signed to a massive second deal, traded for attitude problems within 1 year
Ereck Flowers – attitude and work ethic problems
Eli Apple – attitude and work ethic problems
Evan Engram – team and media questions his drive to succeed
Saquon Barkley – controversial pick due to positional value and need
Daniel Jones – drafted above projection, no demonstrable success as a QB, “make-up” reasons cited
Dexter Lawrence – solid pick but some question about positional value of a 1st round DL without top flight pass rush skills
Deandre Baker – character disaster
Andrew Thomas – drafted above projection, make-up, “NFL readiness” cited
For those counting at home 8/13 first round picks since 2010 who passed our highest levels of personality vetting have been determined to have untenable flaws after spending time in our building. Of the 5 remaining picks 2 were RBs prioritized over other more pressing positional needs. 2 are top 6 picks picked above where they were expected to go who have not remotely played to their draft position. Whatever the Giants think they are scouting to uphold this status as a “high class” organization it appears they are actually finding the opposite and it’s almost comedic the way they keep throwing player after player under the bus as having these problems without acknowledging that the way they manage is at least 50% of that problem.
Kyler Murray and the critique of his public speaking is actually a great deeper dive. Kyler Murray was one of the best college players I have ever seen. The way he led his team, the way they were always in the games. The way he would make plays to win. I was not in any way shape or form saying that issues with confidence or public speaking means you will be bad at any number of vocations or that issues with confidence in one arena would mean they would carry over to something you are more skilled in. You can and should absolutely evaluate how a player carries themselves on the field with more weight than off, while not ignoring off the field. Daniel Jones on field results in no way shape or form merited the #6 pick in the draft. We were sold this bill of goods about how good his makeup was, a makeup so good that you should apparently ignore his lack of on field success. Shouldn’t those off field strengths be on more clear display in a town hall if they exist so clearly to you in your scouting process? Any poster that has read my posts knows I at least arrive with evidence when I’m making claims, even if it is not something they agree with. I wasn’t suggesting that I had a projection for Jones based on 3 seconds, or that was the only variable I was using, the much more important ones were absolutely the fact that he didn’t seem to be a player that elevated his teammates or despite very clear athletic gifts played above lower levels of competition clearly enough. Whatever caused the “full bloom love” is looking extremely questionable right now. Especially because it seems as though the mental parts of DJ’s game are his weak points. That is all I was pointing out, that something we billed as such a big and clear strength, who Jones was off the field, I am struggling to see what exactly they saw in him there. How could we overdraft a player based on their performance to such a degree based on “makeup” and have that actually look like a weakness of his?
And onto Andrew Thomas we go
Gettleman:
Judge:
A certain poster has taken it upon himself on this thread to say I’m overly focused on “being right.” When I suggested that the Giants might be behind in tech and front office personnel to modernize and there was such a strong desire to say I was wrong about this I dug into Github libraries and linkedin resumes because demands of an almost impossible burden of proof existed. I don’t care much about being right, I care about the Giants not slithering away from taking any responsibility and real action for their failures as they always seem to. There isn’t really much accountability on this board, the same people that have said the Giants are figuring this out and anyone that doesn’t believe that is stupid come back here all the time as if today is the day that they are right and people that don’t want to see progress “must be crazy.” We are 1-6 and people talk about how retaining DG or promoting Abrams wouldn’t be so bad. Pitching Judge as some kind of savior. We had this brand new staff that some were calling the best assistants in the league scout Andrew Thomas and tell us he is just the right kind of guy to succeed.
It can’t be stressed enough, that even if Judge is the right guy the Giants organization might be so void of a willingness to hold people accountable for their failures that this won’t get fixed. If your GM (or shadowy ownership group GMs) keep putting rosters on the field with insufficient talent it is absolutely something that might create the “attitude problems” that keeps plaguing our 1st round picks and apparently is all their fault. The Giants organization stinks of a loser mentality and the Giants keep acting like we are heading in the right direction or a few tweaks away from getting fixed. If more people don’t start acknowledging the fact that our real problem could very well be the culture that there is a lot more evidence that this problem pervades than it is fixed, we might just stay trapped in this cycle. The cycle where we bring in a few new people, say everything is getting fixed, or we finally have the right person or the right solution, people keep eating this up. It’s only when there feels like endless slack to screw up that institutions can wallow in ineptitude and rot. And that is fine, that is your prerogative but perhaps antagonizing people that are skeptical of these ongoing claims that we are heading in the right direction could be done with less pride and assurance. Giants pride isn’t a thing anymore and people should stop acting like it is because to some that part is beyond frustrating to behold.
That's two different regimes.
Secondly, the book is still out from Saquon on.
Prior to 2018, what (if anything) have any of those dudes done elsewhere? JPP has been decent, but he was decent here.
All of those picks have their own story as to why they sucked. To try and lump it all into this emotional intelligence schtick is a big time reach.
But this is what you do. Clearly you have no desire to change.
Why do you think all NFL teams spend countless hours interviewing guys, giving psychiatric tests, the Wonderlic, etc....?
This isn't something unique to the Giants.
The league is littered with examples of guys getting shipped out for being malcontents.
We're playing against one of those malcontents tonight.
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it is that there is mounting evidence that what the Giants identify as good personality traits, the fact that they emphasize that so much as part of their process and then so many of these players actually have personality problems. Or worse mental issues on the field. Maybe that's not something that should be passed off so flippantly as "just not drafting well"
Why do you think all NFL teams spend countless hours interviewing guys, giving psychiatric tests, the Wonderlic, etc....?
This isn't something unique to the Giants.
Yeah I get that and my point is how do we get it so wrong? Are we really doing the things needed to fix that problem?
Basketball on grass. That was his vision. But the trenches deteriorated and he failed.
Gettleman is having to undo that, and so far he's failing, but the verdict is still out.
Culture, while important, is still just a fraction of the total picture. You're putting too much emphasis on it.
Once that gets fixed, success will follow.
I truly believe that, and have for 10 years now.
I agree it's about the OL. But don't you find it strange that we get tons of high picks but we continue to play roster whack a mole? Yeah some positions get better but it's never without others getting worse. The offense was supposed to be good this year and the D struggle and it's the opposite. Don't you think boiling it down to "fixing the OL" might be a huge minimization of the larger forces causing us to have a disappointing OL for almost 10 years?
Basketball on grass. That was his vision. But the trenches deteriorated and he failed.
Gettleman is having to undo that, and so far he's failing, but the verdict is still out.
Culture, while important, is still just a fraction of the total picture. You're putting too much emphasis on it.
This all seems reasonable. Except for the verdict thing.
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He loved athletic freaks that were boom or bust. They weren't the best "football player" at their position, but were possibly the best athletes...
Basketball on grass. That was his vision. But the trenches deteriorated and he failed.
Gettleman is having to undo that, and so far he's failing, but the verdict is still out.
Culture, while important, is still just a fraction of the total picture. You're putting too much emphasis on it.
This all seems reasonable. Except for the verdict thing.
On the picks themselves. The verdict is still out on the picks. If in 2 or 3 more years these guys are on their way out like all of the Reese guys, then the verdict will be in.
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In comment 15031757 Britt in VA said:
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He loved athletic freaks that were boom or bust. They weren't the best "football player" at their position, but were possibly the best athletes...
Basketball on grass. That was his vision. But the trenches deteriorated and he failed.
Gettleman is having to undo that, and so far he's failing, but the verdict is still out.
Culture, while important, is still just a fraction of the total picture. You're putting too much emphasis on it.
This all seems reasonable. Except for the verdict thing.
On the picks themselves. The verdict is still out on the picks. If in 2 or 3 more years these guys are on their way out like all of the Reese guys, then the verdict will be in.
Yes and no.
Yes, the guys he picked deserve some time for everybody to determine their worthiness whether they are still here or not in 2-3 years.
No, its been three years of offseason moves, drafts and transactions and the team is demonstrably no better than when Gettleman arrived. The verdict is mostly certainly in.
But this is what you do. Clearly you have no desire to change.
Why on earth would I have any respect for a person that for years told me I was off base and unqualified to suggest that the Giants had flaws in their technology program and has yet to own up to being mistaken there despite the TEAM being able to own up to this. You want to talk about desire to change, start with yourself. Plenty of posters I have a strong wish to maintain mutual respect for even in disagreement but there are people like you that just don't want to hear anything negative about the team and will lash out against people that carry that message.
Honestly, wouldn't be surprised if you had connections to the team in some way but it's always about how "you don't owe me anything" when I dig on this. Criticize me all you want for this but at least i'm an open book. Your bias bleeds through very clearly and you share no reasoning behind that.
This thread takes the cake though - you went down a convoluted rabbit hole and wanted everyone to join, and once everyone didnt it’s now a simple “how did we get it so wrong”?
And you STILL didn’t answer my question from my very first post.
I'll cop to not always having the most clarity in my writing. But this is how it goes with posters like you. I'm happy to acknowledge flaws, you just want to act like any issues you have are on the people on the other side of you.
At least I have ideas and try to look at things in different ways.
I don't really need your opinion on anything Giants related. Might as well ask someone in the front office or on the PR team.
But I'm done with you now, you keep complaining about this Kyler Murray thing when i've given you responses to it twice one in much greater detail.
I won't make the mistake again of feeling like you want to actually discuss anything. Byeeeeee
So as long as you are amazing the supposed flaws don’t matter - that’s kind of a no shit statement isn’t it? You really just didn’t like the Jones pick, which is completely fine. Many people didn’t/don’t but you feel the need to put all this window dressing on it.
If you took a breather from your self promotion you’d realize people have similar opinions, they just don’t post ad nasueam about it. Notice how there isn’t much being said here?
It is just a matter of time before you will be called a paid shill and have a thread created in your honor to discuss it. That was a fun time for me!!