Much ink has been spilled on DG and the problems of the front office but I wanted to focus it on a particular issue that has been a concern of mine. I've highlighted DG's attitude and how it didn't seem to meld with modern organizational psychology. Things like personalizing learning styles and understanding respect is a two way street, hard to get away with expecting everyone to be subservient to you. The more in demand a person is the more power they have these days and it is much easier to stand out in a bad way if you don't operate from this place.
It's been my assertion that because the Giants have refused to even understand how the tide is changing, to evolve the thinking in the building, they also don't even understand how to properly value players. They purge people based on "character" then draft players like Baker. It seems like they are looking for people that say, yes sir, no sir as opposed to actually understanding that these days some people will say that to your face and not follow through.
Sitting in a room with someone, looking them in the eye, cannot be underrated but it took me about 3 seconds of being in a room with Daniel Jones to pick up on what have been serious visible flaws of his personality showing up in his game.
My take from the 2019 town hall:
I had a different take on Daniel Jones completely
NoGainDayne : 6/12/2019 12:31 am : link
I hope he has more confidence on an NFL field than he has in front of crowds with public speaking (quite possible).
He looked like a deer in the headlights, you could feel the nervousness he had, it was palpable. He walked to the wrong chair and had to be pointed in the direction of the right chair.
Lawrence was the captivating guy. The guy the others respected as a rookie. He had a presence. |
Some select DG quotes:
The kid has been well trained. The huge part of this, and I’ve said it before, a big part of this is his make-up.
I made up my mind that I was staying for the game and, frankly, he walked out there and I saw a professional quarterback after the three series that I watched, I saw a professional quarterback. I was in full bloom love.
That’s like a bonus here. This kid is really talented, a really talented football player, and the head makes him more better. |
Notes from tonight's (2019) "Giants Town Hall" event - (
New Window )
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mind reading, is this what we've come to...
Be careful. This guy has been known to go to the mods with his resume. He may have taken a psychology class one time....
And he once stayed in a Holiday Inn.
I was thinking the same thing. I also have to agree with the other person who posted that Jones does not look nervous at all in the pocket with bodies flying all around him. It is as if he barely notices the rush.... a good and bad thing.
My biggest takeaway from the thread is how the Giants truly need the OP in their scouting department. Every team in the league needs this guy in their organization. To be able to evaluate a football player in just a few minutes OFF of the field is absolutely amazing.
And this thread has EQ in the title... talk about irony...
But as Bill2 observed, it is doubtful anyone responding has that training.
Many are acting like I said I knew everything about Jones in 3 seconds which I did not and further qualified on this thread.
What I did say was if I could see something in 3 seconds why did a FAR deeper dive on Jones yield the conclusion that he he had a makeup you want to gush about and fall in love with?
To your point bill you seem to take this idea and run with it. You preached patience and again that the right people were managing this process and this Andrew Thomas pick right now looks like another disaster. He seems like way too flawed a player to take at #4.
My comments amount presence were boiled down to how someone acts in a press conference.
BB has a presence but he is surly in press conferences. That’s a thing. Kyler Murray might not have the best words but he definitely has a presence and swagger.
Daniel Jones went to Duke and didn’t really even stand out there. Kyler Murray was a stud.
At no point did I say assessments of someone should be made in 3 seconds. I did highlight how often the Giants seem to talk up a player and say they are picking them based on make-up and then they seem to have real problems performing the mental aspects of the game.
All the while they refuse to really change and we get whispers that it’s going to be Abrams even in this horrible season. I don’t want to sit and watch do what again looks like right now a blown pick in Andrew Thomas while we hear they are on top of organizational changes. How many more drafts are we going to wait for them to figure it out?
Some might think I’m pompous of out of touch that’s fine. If but if they don’t really change their processes to figure out better who has the right “make-up” we are going to keep watching terrible football. This isn’t about me thinking I can do the job better sitting here on the outside with far less resources. This is about knowing with the resources the Giants have that they could be doing a way better job if they weren’t so stuck in their old ways.
This seems to be the biggest issue. A lot of us don't think you saw anything of substance in 3 seconds, which is reasonable. We don't feel what you saw correlates with his play on the field. I don't know why someone would be surprised by opposition to this pov, certainly when this pov is communicated so certain.
I very clearly said it that post “this might not translate” but it does look like that he both gets overwhelmed in off the field and on the field situations and those things also do translate.
Again, it’s possible you can coach someone to play more confident. And to an extent the Giants clearly did a better job of that last year. But the point is why take a player like that at 6? What did they see in him that made them feel like this was a good leader for the team?
People are (rightfully) laughing at the assumption that "about" 3 seconds is enough time to form any opinion (given the variability in testing any of the Vowel Q's). And then doubling down on the most tenuous of assumptions. And without realizing the basic variability that any imperfect predictor of ability (you can see any of the basic examinations of testing for ability over the past, say, 60 years).
You might be coming in a little too hot with the 100 percent figure there.
People are (rightfully) laughing at the assumption that "about" 3 seconds is enough time to form any opinion (given the variability in testing any of the Vowel Q's). And then doubling down on the most tenuous of assumptions. And without realizing the basic variability that any imperfect predictor of ability (you can see any of the basic examinations of testing for ability over the past, say, 60 years).
It took 3 seconds for me to see something that looked to be a personality flaw that should have been investigated with a lot more resources. That was the point. I’m not sure what yielded such confidence in the Giants process in the make-up of Jones when his confidence issues could display that strongly in a town hall meeting. I never said that it was the sole way he should be judged and even said in the post it’s possible this doesn’t translate to the field
I very clearly said it that post “this might not translate” but it does look like that he both gets overwhelmed in off the field and on the field situations and those things also do translate.
Again, it’s possible you can coach someone to play more confident. And to an extent the Giants clearly did a better job of that last year. But the point is why take a player like that at 6? What did they see in him that made them feel like this was a good leader for the team?
You are now quadrupling down on the OP?
Really?
Did you watch Thursday's game?
As others have noted, the main subject of EQ in the OP is just incredibly ironic.
I was commenting on the fact that the Giants always seem to emphasize the soft parts as an excuse not to modernize and they seem bad at assessing the soft parts too.
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Hard to pick a receiver well when you have trouble picking a chair. Those things tie into each other 100%.
You might be coming in a little too hot with the 100 percent figure there.
I wasn’t suggesting that Daniel Jones can’t pick chairs or receivers all the time. But that in moments he seems to have problems with his progressions and in a moment where picking a chair seems hard picking a receiver would be impossible.
Well, I guess we can confirm this.
Listen, we all, at points, make shitty assumptions based on determined outcomes. The sign of good EQ is to realize when called out on the flaw, to acknowledge the flaw, and refine the model.
But Thin Slicing and seeing some important thing via an intuitive mental process requires high level expertise.
So let's say Bill Walsh could evaluate just a few plays by DJ and accurately pronounce yes or no he's a franchise QB....
It would be based on watching Jones play football, not on how he handles a crowded room at a presser.
If the latter was so key...
Joe Judge would have this team at 6-1 instead of 1-6.
I brought up my experience because, I think his lack of presence was an obvious red flag. To go along with other things about Jones and his history especially. Not that isolated factor.
What I am saying is I don’t know how all the inputs of Daniel Jones lead to a conclusion that he had the right makeup.
Not that the process should be me looking at someone for 3 seconds. And it requires a lot of bad faith to think the way you are suggesting. But I get it, it’s the same thing I faced when I questioned DG originally. Many don’t like hearing that the team they love might not be doing the best job.
I wouldn’t want to take a QB in the top 10 that didn’t have presence. Jones in a lot of moments doesn’t look like he has the proper presence, he didn’t look like he did in those moments I saw him. If a QB looks like there are moments they don’t have the presence and strength to lead a team that merits a deeper dive into how often that will be, what it might take to develop and accentuate his strengths more, etc.
I don’t know what in the deeper dive on Jones yielded that he wouldn’t have these types of mental issues but clearly even if he sorts them out we looked to have scouted his make-up and the level of help he needs poorly. He’s had a bad season overall and is definitely one of the reasons we are 1-6.
Pure Luck - ( New Window )
Hilarious to see him continue to defend this insane post. Wow.
By not having NGDs insights the whole team and the coaches elected Jones as a Team Captain...a role one 3 second observation could have clearly shown that he just doesn't have the EQ for.
Their thousands of hours of observation missed this flaw.
Its like the 12 year old who won the National Spelling Bee and afterwards was crying tears of joy for 3 seconds. Clearly more E than EQ. Yet her parents decided to let her go to a private school mistakenly thinking she might have potential in the next 60 years of her life.
I blame Getteman. Not valuing 3 seconds in one slice of life is what leads to bad evaluations of who can do what. He is a NonEQ superspreader.
This is how the Soviet Union will overtake us.
What? There isn't a Soviet Union anymore?
See how the same posters attack me and the good points I make about the Soviet Union?
You think they are going to nail their picks again like they do every year?
There is a poster who for 3 years shows to anyone with the EQ of a dead salamander that needs negative attention at least once a week. And does so by posting aggressively stupid positions and making fun of all who question even a tiny aspect of the post.
Then when he gets negative attention...just "has to" stand up and fight while I insisting he has a righteous cause.
Nothing anyone says gets him to observe himself for 3 seconds it would take to apply some EQ and thereby break out of the self toxic loop.
Your story of how you generated great insight by observing 3 seconds gave me hope you could help this poster?
Would you consider doing that?
I'm not trying to suggest I have the answers just that I'm not sure what process is getting the Giants to gush so much about the mental aspects and preparedness of the games of these players especially when they are getting drafted above where they are being projected.
There is a poster who for 3 years shows to anyone with the EQ of a dead salamander that needs negative attention at least once a week. And does so by posting aggressively stupid positions and making fun of all who question even a tiny aspect of the post.
Then when he gets negative attention...just "has to" stand up and fight while I insisting he has a righteous cause.
Nothing anyone says gets him to observe himself for 3 seconds it would take to apply some EQ and thereby break out of the self toxic loop.
Your story of how you generated great insight by observing 3 seconds gave me hope you could help this poster?
Would you consider doing that?
I also think this is disingenuous, I made fun of Uconn someone who for years has attacked most of my posts, who also took a shot at me before I took one at him. I haven't made fun of everyone who disagreed with me a little on this. Earlier in the thread GiantsRage2007 disagreed with me and came around to agree in a very reasonable way.
NoGainDayne : 11:04 am : link : reply
have always criticized my posts all coming together.
I don't post as often as I used to, and I certainly don't generally get involved in these threads of yours that seemingly appear on a regular basis. And I apologize if this comes across rude because I'm not trying to be rude but instead just a little blunt since you don't seem to be willing to consider any of the criticism directed at you but instead dismiss it out of hand as just "the same cast of characters"
But as someone that isn't a regularly character" as you suggest I'll offer my take. You come across as someone that has a desire to create posts that you hope will wow people with your insight, but most often seem to be more blather than substance. Then when/if criticized instead of even considering any of it, you get defensive and dig in deeper
I have been on this site for about twenty five years and over that span of time there has been a handful of posters that seem to have a desperate need for attention and like clockwork they keep posting threads trying to impress with something only they supposedly understand but are willing to share with the rest of us. You are starting to fall into that category of posters.
If you take nothing else from my post, please just try and take the effort to self reflect a little more about why you so often find yourself in similar debates that go around and around with similar people, on similar topics of discussions.
I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. One thing I learned a long time ago when posting on forums is that before I hit submit on a long or emotional post is to sit back and re-read it and try to look at it objectively. If you find that you never delete rather than post, it could be a red flag that you may want to self edit more strictly.
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There is exactly the man we need.
There is a poster who for 3 years shows to anyone with the EQ of a dead salamander that needs negative attention at least once a week. And does so by posting aggressively stupid positions and making fun of all who question even a tiny aspect of the post.
Then when he gets negative attention...just "has to" stand up and fight while I insisting he has a righteous cause.
Nothing anyone says gets him to observe himself for 3 seconds it would take to apply some EQ and thereby break out of the self toxic loop.
Your story of how you generated great insight by observing 3 seconds gave me hope you could help this poster?
Would you consider doing that?
I also think this is disingenuous, I made fun of Uconn someone who for years has attacked most of my posts, who also took a shot at me before I took one at him. I haven't made fun of everyone who disagreed with me a little on this. Earlier in the thread GiantsRage2007 disagreed with me and came around to agree in a very reasonable way.
I think Giantsrage2007 agreed with you that the Giants were not drafting well. Not with your EQ argument.
Which is the main point of what I am saying. I clarified this many times. It's about the flawed process the Giants are using and not being sure what about Daniel Jones made them so sure he was ready to lead an NFL team. Not that anyone should ever be assessed in 3 seconds.
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It’s literally the same cast of characters that
NoGainDayne : 11:04 am : link : reply
have always criticized my posts all coming together.
I don't post as often as I used to, and I certainly don't generally get involved in these threads of yours that seemingly appear on a regular basis. And I apologize if this comes across rude because I'm not trying to be rude but instead just a little blunt since you don't seem to be willing to consider any of the criticism directed at you but instead dismiss it out of hand as just "the same cast of characters"
But as someone that isn't a regularly character" as you suggest I'll offer my take. You come across as someone that has a desire to create posts that you hope will wow people with your insight, but most often seem to be more blather than substance. Then when/if criticized instead of even considering any of it, you get defensive and dig in deeper
I have been on this site for about twenty five years and over that span of time there has been a handful of posters that seem to have a desperate need for attention and like clockwork they keep posting threads trying to impress with something only they supposedly understand but are willing to share with the rest of us. You are starting to fall into that category of posters.
If you take nothing else from my post, please just try and take the effort to self reflect a little more about why you so often find yourself in similar debates that go around and around with similar people, on similar topics of discussions.
I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. One thing I learned a long time ago when posting on forums is that before I hit submit on a long or emotional post is to sit back and re-read it and try to look at it objectively. If you find that you never delete rather than post, it could be a red flag that you may want to self edit more strictly.
I appreciate your candor, will take this in
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I will definitely agree with your last point. The process they are using to select players isn’t hitting a high %. It is not translating to on the field play for sure. It’s disheartening.
Which is the main point of what I am saying. I clarified this many times. It's about the flawed process the Giants are using and not being sure what about Daniel Jones made them so sure he was ready to lead an NFL team. Not that anyone should ever be assessed in 3 seconds.
Are you serious? You take a partial agreement and say he supports your original post? Really?
Patience, although at its hardest to give, is absolutely essential in watching efforts at the bottom of a drawn out performance cycle...in sports teams and business turnarounds.
Anyone who thought we were ever going to a winning season or do better than an 0-4 start was dreaming those outcomes up and insisting they were reasonable. Those are and never were the yardsticks one would use to "see" if there is progress. I dont know about you but to me the whole season is a better yardstick with a young team where the key is "how much of a core do we have to build on?"
Frankly, I dont yet see an encouraging core. But I most likely never would have seen it after 6 games unless they were playing way above their heads with luck thrown in.
And my summer commentary said exactly that over and over again...and so did many a "realistic" poster (usually then labelled an optimist so they stopped posting. Discouraged away by drivel.
As soon as 2 games came up (as they always should have been expected to) then the cliches returned.
I get it ...all are tired of losing. Doesnt happen because we are tired of losing or all of a sudden.
Watching most sports teams is frustrating. Period. Full Stop. Sometimes lowering ones level of intensity about the process is helpful
This is the post that apparently insulted you. Really? You wrote a self serving piece that BBI was supposed to bow down to and we didn’t.
And this came after you didn’t like my Kyler Murray opinion and how awful his body language was in interviews. Post 2018 season getting ready to draft, pundits and posters talked about how terrible he was in interviews, how wishy washy he was between baseball and football and all the red flags. These are all characteristics people noticed after being in the room with him for 3 seconds or listening to him speak. So I’ll ask again, how’d that turn out? Did the goal post move disqualifying Murray’s negative EQ traits? What will the excuse be?
If you havent noticed most people on this thread have a problem with the way you present information and post with such certainty. There’s a reason why so many of your threads blow up in your face.
Patience, although at its hardest to give, is absolutely essential in watching efforts at the bottom of a drawn out performance cycle...in sports teams and business turnarounds.
Anyone who thought we were ever going to a winning season or do better than an 0-4 start was dreaming those outcomes up and insisting they were reasonable. Those are and never were the yardsticks one would use to "see" if there is progress. I dont know about you but to me the whole season is a better yardstick with a young team where the key is "how much of a core do we have to build on?"
Frankly, I dont yet see an encouraging core. But I most likely never would have seen it after 6 games unless they were playing way above their heads with luck thrown in.
And my summer commentary said exactly that over and over again...and so did many a "realistic" poster (usually then labelled an optimist so they stopped posting. Discouraged away by drivel.
As soon as 2 games came up (as they always should have been expected to) then the cliches returned.
I get it ...all are tired of losing. Doesnt happen because we are tired of losing or all of a sudden.
Watching most sports teams is frustrating. Period. Full Stop. Sometimes lowering ones level of intensity about the process is helpful
I get this and I've been a sports fan for a long time and never felt remotely this way about a team.
It feels like the Giants talk a lot about caring about their fans but that honestly feels like all talk.
At least James Dolan doesn't try to convince anyone that he cares.
It feels like the Giants make a big show of caring and making improvements and don't ever do the real work of improving their processes and it would be nice if they just went full Dolan or made the real changes TBH.
I had a very frustrating interaction in the offseason that I think you are at least tacitly aware of where someone close to the team and front office talked about how stupid anyone was for thinking that Gettleman wasn't the right guy. How much "smarter" Gettleman and all the Giants front office are than fan perception.
I'm just wondering when all this intelligence is going to display on the field and it just honestly feels like the team doesn't mind giving the middle finger to their fan base. Keeping Gettleman, this process where it feels like we are destined for DG or Abrams. It feels like they are putting this internal Giants family before the larger Giants family. And honestly that's coming at a time when the world feels like it's making a lot of choices for a smaller group of people while a larger group of people gets fucked over.
It would be great if it felt like people running the Giants even cared about their fans in ways reflected in their actions not some nice words a few times a year.
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I just don’t care. You want to hold onto how a GM sells a pick, go right ahead. Don’t care about that stuff personally but if you want to write a puff piece about your self like you did in the OP don’t let me stop you.
This is the post that apparently insulted you. Really? You wrote a self serving piece that BBI was supposed to bow down to and we didn’t.
And this came after you didn’t like my Kyler Murray opinion and how awful his body language was in interviews. Post 2018 season getting ready to draft, pundits and posters talked about how terrible he was in interviews, how wishy washy he was between baseball and football and all the red flags. These are all characteristics people noticed after being in the room with him for 3 seconds or listening to him speak. So I’ll ask again, how’d that turn out? Did the goal post move disqualifying Murray’s negative EQ traits? What will the excuse be?
If you havent noticed most people on this thread have a problem with the way you present information and post with such certainty. There’s a reason why so many of your threads blow up in your face.
Show me "all my threads" that blow up in my face. I've started very few over the years, but please, by all means, show me your evidence.
You’re right man, is me not you. Enjoy your day.
2015 - 2017 - all moves made in those years were for the benefit of Eli. Eli was not being traded, released or cut. So, they had to continue to try to build a winning team around him. That's the Owner's call.
2017 - 2019 - Remnants of Eli still on the roster and now you have to start finishing the tear down.
2020 - Year 1 of rebuild. New HC
The draft part of the process is simple also. The GM does not have final say on draft picks. It's been stated many times, even by Gettleman himself. Draft picks are voted on by committee, with Owner, Chris Mara, GM on the committee.
So stop beating yourself over something you will never figure out because it is not one person making the decisions..
P.S. The Owner is more involved than people think..