Forget about "QB Hell" We are in Left Tackle Hell

This is a complete kneejerk. Colombo still has a lot of faith in the kid. If we can have Thomas at one Tackle and Peart at the other for a good run, then this draft was a huge success.

Another Thomas thread? Hilarious. $50 to the first person to post something about AT or DG that has not been said 20X before.

In comment 15029060 DCOrange said:

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Another Thomas thread? Hilarious. $50 to the first person to post something about AT or DG that has not been said 20X before.

Dave Gettleman, I'm not gay, but there's a guy i'd like to have sex with.

You can venmo me

Chris Snee is absolutely the only "plus "Offensive Lineman the team has drafted over this two-decade mog period.

You could potentially put David Diehl in here as well as he did make a few pro bowls...not sure how, but he did.

What a pathetic display of talent evaluation for Offensive Lineman over such a long period. How could that be?...it's almost impossible. It is so bad posters may have to give Gettleman a pass, because it basically appears to be a incompetence-epidemic that has plagued the Front Office for over two decades.

***

Go back and read about how each LT fared during their first year or two. Remember that Luke Petitgout was benched during his rookie season.

Laremy Tunsil struggled at LT in camp and played his entire rookie season at LG. He also had the benefit of a full offseason that Thomas didn't.

Anyone who is declaring Thomas a bust this season doesn't understand football.

Eagles LT Andre Dillard spent most of his rookie season as the swing tackle.

Jake Matthews struggled mightily during his rookie season. etc.

In comment 15029068 Jay on the Island said:

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Go back and read about how each LT fared during their first year or two. Remember that Luke Petitgout was benched during his rookie season. Laremy Tunsil struggled at LT in camp and played his entire rookie season at LG. He also had the benefit of a full offseason that Thomas didn't. Anyone who is declaring Thomas a bust this season doesn't understand football. Eagles LT Andre Dillard spent most of his rookie season as the swing tackle. Jake Matthews struggled mightily during his rookie season. etc.

THIS^

Ands to expand to another position but a player taken very high in the first round last season Joe B and Roberts bashed Quennin Williams every day on the air. Bro wouldn't even say his name correctly. Now he is a must keep player in their eyes. Thomas wasn't even supposed to be the LT this season. No camp. New staff. Give it time.

We were told by many that Andrew needed to learn pass protection moves as he was a road-grader in the running game.

I will hold out my "bust" language until he has had a real off-season/time with Columbo.

However, Peart could be a nice safety net!

Let's all relax on Thomas for now and see what develops.

We have no choice but to be patient now at 1-6.

Are mean, like contact, and want to kick ass. Those are the best OL. Flowers and now Thomas don’t seem mean.

In comment 15029045 LBH15 said:

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keep going

Beatty was a plus player. Guy wasn't an all pro but if you get a starting Left Tackle for 4 years in the 2nd round- that is certainly a plus. Injuries did him in though.

Giants should draft Sewell. Having quality OL across the line is a must in today's NFL. So many elite DL in today's NFL. Giants need to sign a quality WR in FA. If they can a edge rusher. Draft Sewell in first round then second round find edge rusher

In comment 15029109 GiantBlue said:

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We were told by many that Andrew needed to learn pass protection moves as he was a road-grader in the running game. I will hold out my "bust" language until he has had a real off-season/time with Columbo. However, Peart could be a nice safety net! Let's all relax on Thomas for now and see what develops. We have no choice but to be patient now at 1-6.

Thank you. Calling the kid a bust right now is jumping the gun.

Not defending his bad play but he's a 21 year old kid playing one of the most difficult positions on the field without a preseason to ease in.

In comment 15029127 TyreeHelmet said:

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In comment 15029045 LBH15 said: Quote: keep going Beatty was a plus player. Guy wasn't an all pro but if you get a starting Left Tackle for 4 years in the 2nd round- that is certainly a plus. Injuries did him in though.

My question has nothing to do when they were drafted. You are talking more about value.

And either way he wasn't a plus player just because he started for the Giants. Imv, Plus refers to that he is markedly better than average at his position and at least can get some level of NFL recognition when he played, even in one year...Beatty didn't reach that level.

Another example is Jonathan Ogden who started at guard.

QB hell is when you are stuck, long term, with a bad QB that has a monster contract that a team can't get out from under thus crippling the cap of the team.

The Giants don't have a cap killing LT.

from college to pro at LT - as a 21 year old.

You go from playing the SEC conference to playing elite, NFL-level edge rushers coached by NFL-level Defensive Coordinators trying to take advantage of your inexperience.

Even if you're "talented" you're probably going to get your ass handed to you on a silver platter. It's disrespectful to the NFL game to think otherwise.

There is a reason up until very recently it would have been outright stupid to expect any rookie to start from day 1. There is a steep learning curve at this level and nobody has any patience. Let's see what he is next year after taking his lumps and being thrown into the fire.

RT or G. Especially if we're picking in a spot to land an LT in the next draft. So I think we're A OK.

to see you call Nate Soldier a "sloth" to his face.

saying that Thomas is a bust. Not sure why so many strawmen are being created. It is still early in his career and everyone acknowledges that. But it is also not unreasonable to be concerned because he is not only playing so poorly, he is playing worse than the other tackles drafted after him.

Nobody knows what Thomas will ultimately be. But for discussion purposes it is not unreasonable to be concerned with what he has shown so far.

In comment 15029222 barens said:

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to see you call Nate Soldier a "sloth" to his face.

He'll never catch me

In comment 15029128 Giants said:

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Giants should draft Sewell. Having quality OL across the line is a must in today's NFL. So many elite DL in today's NFL. Giants need to sign a quality WR in FA. If they can a edge rusher. Draft Sewell in first round then second round find edge rusher

I'm not sure that's true about an OL. Having a quality OL has actually become more of a luxury because - for a variety of reasons - quality OL just don't exist in bulk.

So what you really need is a more athletic QB who can help offset what an OL may be lacking in that quality.

And then top tier coaching to scheme around that...

In comment 15029061 cjac said:

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In comment 15029060 DCOrange said: Quote: Another Thomas thread? Hilarious. $50 to the first person to post something about AT or DG that has not been said 20X before. Dave Gettleman, I'm not gay, but there's a guy i'd like to have sex with. You can venmo me

For the record I totally disagree with your premise on this thread but I was howling when I read this!

bw in dc : 12:44 pm : link : reply
In comment 15029128 Giants said:
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Giants should draft Sewell. Having quality OL across the line is a must in today's NFL. So many elite DL in today's NFL. Giants need to sign a quality WR in FA. If they can a edge rusher. Draft Sewell in first round then second round find edge rusher


I'm not sure that's true about an OL. Having a quality OL has actually become more of a luxury because - for a variety of reasons - quality OL just don't exist in bulk.

So what you really need is a more athletic QB who can help offset what an OL may be lacking in that quality.

And then top tier coaching to scheme around that...

Just look at the Giants this season. Every week they have had to try to stop a high quality DL. DJ is more than mobile enough. Yet every week we see him trying to avoid the rush. Until you can get a hold on controlling the line the offense is in trouble. Giants have a great chance at drafting Sewell. Sewell is ranked higher than any OL that came out last season or in the last few season coming out of college. You add Sewell to this line it gives a solid chance of having a quality OL for next few seasons.

you don't keep chopping wood trying to find OLs. It's just become a very difficult due to supply.

That doesn't excuse for one minute how bad this organization has been just trying to find a few.

Jones is athletic and mobile - true. But I'm not sold on whether he has enough traditional QB skills - yet.

If the Giants have a shot at him. All reports have him as the best non-QB.

LT Sewell
LG Hernandez/Lemieux
C Gates
RG Thomas
RT Peart

I know moving Thomas to RG after one year isn’t ideal but neither is having a turnstile protecting the blindside. Guess we’ll have to see how he progresses down the stretch.

It would certainly be nice to not have to take an OL in round 1 again.

In comment 15029045 LBH15 said:

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keep going

Was absolutely a plus left tackle until injuries. Not sure what you watched. By plus you mean above average. He was.

In comment 15029278 Tuckrule said:

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In comment 15029045 LBH15 said: Quote: keep going Was absolutely a plus left tackle until injuries. Not sure what you watched. By plus you mean above average. He was.

I thought Phil Simms had a very good Super Bowl. And by the way, Beatty was a fairly average Tackle in the NFL.

Look at it this way — if Thomas was crushing it, wouldn’t the consensus be that’s a great thing and some indication it was both the right pick and predictive of future success?

He’s been terrible, at a minimum it’s concerning and an indication of how far he has to go.

It’s not a tragedy, but it’s not a non-factor. The clear cut better circumstance is if he had hit the ground running.

In comment 15029180 JohnB said:

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QB hell is when you are stuck, long term, with a bad QB that has a monster contract that a team can't get out from under thus crippling the cap of the team. The Giants don't have a cap killing LT.

This. QB hell isn't Josh Rosen. It's Kirk Cousins.

In comment 15029006 Greg from LI said:

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And he was at least promising in his first crack at it.

Everyone always loves the backup. You do realize Peart will have his own warts when he gets meaningful minutes?

In comment 15029044 fkap said:

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if you stick with a guy for 5 years. One never hopes for a bust, but if you end up with one, you hope for a mega BUST. Then you can cut your losses and move on (ala Josh Rosen). Worst is a guy who looks like he might turn the corner, but never does. That said, QB is a spot where the best chance of getting a good one is top of the draft. A serviceable LT can be found lower, and it is easier to succeed with a serviceable LT than a serviceable QB. Our OL was not set back because of Solder. It was set back because most of the rest of the line was subpar (putting it mildly). Put him on a good line, and he's serviceable. Even if you disagree with that, LT is not a position of extreme weakness (less than 5 years in) because we missed on Solder, but because (so far) Thomas has sucked.

Problem is...the Giants are in QB hell, WR hell, TE hell, OLine hell, ER hell, S hell, CB hell, and QB hell. With our drafting and FA record, it will take decades to fix it all.

In comment 15029180 JohnB said:

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QB hell is when you are stuck, long term, with a bad QB that has a monster contract that a team can't get out from under thus crippling the cap of the team. The Giants don't have a cap killing LT.

Sure they do. He opted out this season.

In comment 15029222 barens said:

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to see you call Nate Soldier a "sloth" to his face.

By that incredibly inane line of thinking, most people would also hesitate to criticize Ian Allen to his face. Does that make him a good OT?

Exactly right about Kirk Cousins being the perfect example of quarterback hell. I said this earlier in the season, it’s ironic because the more we see Jones, the more likely it seems like he’s exactly what Getty was trying to avoid when he talked about QB hell. It’s still too soon to tell but as an exercise in speculation the upside to Jones seems increasingly to be south of Kirk Cousin or Tannehill or any other JAG QB1.

Regarding AT, it’s just way too soon to tell. The kid is getting undressed but that does happen to rookies in the NFL and it’s not necessarily an indication of where he’ll be this time next season. The kid needs time and coaching and needs to put in the hard work. Hopefully the technique and success will follow.

Best case scenario -- the remnants of Nate Solder's contract, plus Andrew Thomas will cost the Giants $29M in 2021 and 2022.

These are the true costs of each bird taking 2 (or sometimes 3) stones in the Gettleman era.

how he needs to develop his game.

Hell is sticking with Evan Engram who will never develop hands, blocking skill, or route running skill.

In comment 15029515 jeffusedtobeonwebtv said:

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Hell is sticking with Evan Engram who will never develop hands, blocking skill, or route running skill.

Hell is a busted TE pick? That's hell?

I don't even want to know what you thought WebTV was if Engram is hell.

just in hell.

and an enema.

Just have the balls to say Thomas is a bust. Just come out and say it, and you just won’t be a flip flopper.

In comment 15029660 St. Jimmy said:

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just in hell.

Good call.

In comment 15029660 St. Jimmy said:

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just in hell.

*starts hearing Girl of my Dreams played on the saxophone*
Girl of my Dreams as heard in the film Angel Heart - ( New Window )

There is no equivocating between taking a LT high and having him bust to the same happening at QB. If you take a QB that high, you are pretty much obligated to keep him and let him go through highs and lows before you have to move on. In fact, people use "QB hell" wrong. QB hell is when you have a guy who plays "ok", the team is reasonably successful and you have to decide whether or not to give a big contract to a guy like Stafford or Cousins or Garropalo or Alex Smith. Guys who produce, but never win when they have to.

LT hell....doesnt really exist because they are easily cut if you dont they are worth a huge contract. Or you can move him to Guard.

This Sewell guy, I dont know very much about him admittedly. But we just drafted two tackles with no offseason. I really like Peart as LT of the future and shifting Thomas to the right. Question is, with our two rookies, do you really take a tackle that took the year off over a pass rusher or alpha linebacker like Parsons?

Bottomline, the overreaction to Thomas struggling is insane.

In comment 15029783 chopperhatch said:

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There is no equivocating between taking a LT high and having him bust to the same happening at QB. If you take a QB that high, you are pretty much obligated to keep him and let him go through highs and lows before you have to move on. In fact, people use "QB hell" wrong. QB hell is when you have a guy who plays "ok", the team is reasonably successful and you have to decide whether or not to give a big contract to a guy like Stafford or Cousins or Garropalo or Alex Smith. Guys who produce, but never win when they have to. LT hell....doesnt really exist because they are easily cut if you dont they are worth a huge contract. Or you can move him to Guard. This Sewell guy, I dont know very much about him admittedly. But we just drafted two tackles with no offseason. I really like Peart as LT of the future and shifting Thomas to the right. Question is, with our two rookies, do you really take a tackle that took the year off over a pass rusher or alpha linebacker like Parsons? Bottomline, the overreaction to Thomas struggling is insane.

QB Hell is not what you're suggesting.

The Jaguars and WFT one or both are about to enter it between this year and next.

In comment 15029394 trueblueinpw said:

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Exactly right about Kirk Cousins being the perfect example of quarterback hell. I said this earlier in the season, it’s ironic because the more we see Jones, the more likely it seems like he’s exactly what Getty was trying to avoid when he talked about QB hell. It’s still too soon to tell but as an exercise in speculation the upside to Jones seems increasingly to be south of Kirk Cousin or Tannehill or any other JAG QB1. Regarding AT, it’s just way too soon to tell. The kid is getting undressed but that does happen to rookies in the NFL and it’s not necessarily an indication of where he’ll be this time next season. The kid needs time and coaching and needs to put in the hard work. Hopefully the technique and success will follow.

If Danny Dimes becomes Cousins, no one around here will complain or talk about "qb hell." You would all gladly take the 67% completions, 4000 yards and 27 td's he averaged the last 2 years in Minnesota. Guys who can put up those numbers don't grow on trees.

"QB hell" is Washington, who let Cousins walk after a 4000 yd 27 td year three years ago and still haven't found anyone to replace him. Qb's are expensive. Remember that as we piss away the 2nd year of cheap qb contract.

In comment 15029786 giantstock said:

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In comment 15029783 chopperhatch said: Quote: There is no equivocating between taking a LT high and having him bust to the same happening at QB. If you take a QB that high, you are pretty much obligated to keep him and let him go through highs and lows before you have to move on. In fact, people use "QB hell" wrong. QB hell is when you have a guy who plays "ok", the team is reasonably successful and you have to decide whether or not to give a big contract to a guy like Stafford or Cousins or Garropalo or Alex Smith. Guys who produce, but never win when they have to. LT hell....doesnt really exist because they are easily cut if you dont they are worth a huge contract. Or you can move him to Guard. This Sewell guy, I dont know very much about him admittedly. But we just drafted two tackles with no offseason. I really like Peart as LT of the future and shifting Thomas to the right. Question is, with our two rookies, do you really take a tackle that took the year off over a pass rusher or alpha linebacker like Parsons? Bottomline, the overreaction to Thomas struggling is insane. QB Hell is not what you're suggesting. The Jaguars and WFT one or both are about to enter it between this year and next.

Nonsense. They will keep Haskins who costs them a lousy 4 million against the cap. You can barely get a backup for that. Rookie qb's are comparatively cheap. A vet qb is minimum 20 million a year (that's what Bridgewater got). Haskins cap cost is 4 mill. The guy they are going to jettison will be Alex Smith who would cost 20 million against the cap and will cost 10 million in dead money to cut. Haskins would cost 8 million in dead money. So, cutting Smith saves the Redskins 11 million in cap. (the difference between his cap number and dead money). Cutting Haskins costs them 4 million in cap. It's a no brainer.

I am worried about the inconsistency of his play now, for sure. In particular he looks awful vs counter inside moves from his opponent, and I expected far better from him on exactly those types of reps.

Now it's still way too early to write him off, as he is adjusting or rather learning several technique corrections all at the same time. I hopeful still, and every game he also has good reps (especially run blocking) in which his native abilities shine through.

You'd like to think the Giants would have a choice of whom to pick in the next draft, but right now I don't know if they could possibly bypass Penei Sewell, or dare to trade back, since their OL at both Ts is a wreck.

Hoping to see consistent improvement from AT for the next several games.

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Bottomline, the overreaction to Thomas struggling is insane.

Obviously, DC's have found a major hole or two or three in his game. Depending on which analysts you believe, some of these holes or bad habits existed in his college game. (btw, that is what sunk Flowers also- he had some bad habits in college that could not be coached away in the pros. he could get away with these habits in college, not so much in the pros). You have to wonder if it was the same scouts who believed that both players could be coached out of resorting to these bad habits in the heat of battle.

So, if these bad habits can be coached away, Thomas can turn things around. If not, then he will be another Flowers.

At any rate, the "pro ready" label was the usual happy talk the serial over-drafters at Jints Central apply to each and every #1 pick they make, and I am surprised that people around here still listen to that shit.