Very harsh Jones criticism from around the league:

I am with you on the accuracy issue. He's missing slightly or by a lot just too frequently.

Then that’s what we will do. Jones has his destiny in his own hands. Anyone who doesn’t think Judge and the FO don’t see the same stuff we’re all seeing and talking about daily is fooling themselves. He either plays us out of the chance to replace him or right into one

In comment 15043333 DC Gmen Fan said:

Quote:

especially ones that have smarts. Let's see what happens.

That would be a reasonable point, except that Jones needs to improve in just SO MANY areas that it's starting to be unlikely he can make the move up to a consistently good player. You could put just about any human out there and say, well he just needs to improve, except the performance deficiencies would be so numerous, most people can't overcome them.

In comment 15043382 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15043371 Trainmaster said: Quote: "They had guys running deep three times and the quarterback doesn’t even look at them.That is the first read in the play." How does someone know what the first read is without knowing the play design and play call? These coaches know every play/formation in the league. If it is a new wrinkle, they can quickly discern the sequence of options. So they know exactly what's going on...

Man coverage on your #1 WR is also typically enough to be the first read. Slayton was the WR on at least 2-3 of those plays.

how about that comment about his gameplay vs Tampa? And his old Cowboys team probably wishes it had him back in the worst way.

I think Garrett will be moving on to his next HC job pronto.

.

is when you line him up against his contemporaries (Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Kyler) and it is crystal clear those guys are far better than he is.

Jones has 4 wins against the Skins and he won his debut in TB. Other than that he is winless. Blame the OL, the injuries, the skill players all you want - the guy loses a ton.

It comes down to wins. If the team can win with him he will stay. An improving OL will help him as it would anyone.

“Guys running deep” requires the line to block longer. If he holds the ball and goes to throw and his arm is hit (fumble) and you guys blame him every time. Do you see the time other QBs have to throw around the league?

QBR says No!

and he is not looking for mismatches that give him an edge. I am not seeing football smarts from him at all. His main focus now is not turning ball over when a QB's main focus always has to be TO MAKE A PLAY. He is being overcoached and it has made him hesitate even when the play is clearly there.

Hey Danny - when you make plays a turnover can be overlooked. Better start making plays soon . He who hesitates sits on bench.

Sound more like Giant fans who wanted Josh Allen and Sam Darnold.

In comment 15043424 Carl in CT said:

Quote:

“Guys running deep” requires the line to block longer. If he holds the ball and goes to throw and his arm is hit (fumble) and you guys blame him every time. Do you see the time other QBs have to throw around the league?

There were plays in that Tampa game where there was more than enough time for Jones to execute. And there were plays where Jones inexplicably didn't see the obvious. Very concerning.

In comment 15043346 BillT said:

Quote:

While his surrounding cast has not only been worse than him but has been, in the overall, as bad if not worse than any in the league.

What you are describing is about somebody else. Is that where you want to go?

In comment 15043331 gary_from_chester said:

Quote:

And put him in Tier3 at rating of 3.38. The top of tier3 was Kyler Murray, 14th overall at 2.68. Some well known names just above DJ - Derek Carr at 20 (2.98), Baker Mayfield at 21 (3.0), Josh Allen at 22 (3.04), Teddy Brigewater at 23 (3.14) and Darnold at 24 (3.18). The most ‘positive’ comment from evaluator was: “It’s hard for me to put my trust in him because you see really good flashes, but then there are just times when there are so many boneheaded mistakes,” an evaluator said. “Him, Sam Darnold, Mitch Trubisky are all the same to me. Talented enough, can scramble enough, but not consistent enough. Are there coaches who can develop these guys?” My take is it is do or die time for DJ. He needs a strong performance over the next 7 games, otherwise I’m banging the drum for QB in round 1. Hope he balls out, but gun to my head - he is not the guy.

I think that quote could be viewed as optimistic. He (with the caveat that we should take all of these anonymous quotes with a grain of salt) says it's not ability, it's development. Specifically asks about the coaching, which suggests that if DJ gets the right help to harness his ability (which probably means getting him to become more mentally attuned to the game) (which may even be less coaching than more in-game experience), then he can succeed.

that the nwind was blowing harder than it seemed in the TB game. Jones almost never misses receivers that badly. I mean, he was missing by over 5 yards. Plus, Brady probably missed a 4-5 easy throws outside the harsh marks as well.

designed to enrage and annoy the Low IQ and easily led.


Again, if you have faith in Judge and Garret to do what they do best, Pay articles of this no mind. The Athletic dog-shit is designed to enrage and aggravate people and get them angry.

Cut it out of your life as a person and a fan and you'll be much better off.

How many people are ready to give up on Jones. Not many second year QBs would be successful going through their second coaching staff in two years, without a pre-season, having his full set of weapons for just one quarter, behind what until recently has arguably been the worst offensive line in football?

IMO opinion it is too early to give up on him, more importantly I think the Giant's will give him 2021 to develop behind a more stable environment.

In comment 15043339 BlueManCrew said:

Quote:

Jones has had a running game for a total of 2 weeks, give the man a chance to adjust. No off-season, new coach and coordinators. And for the first 6 games he was running for his life and in third and long all day. He will be fine. Maybe never a Mahomes level superstar but he will be a better than average starter once he gets in sync with his receivers, especially on those deep routes. Takes a lot of timing and practice.

He got 167 yards on the ground against Washington and put up Gordon Mineshew numbers and 23 points. That's ok except that Mineshew was a 6th rounder not the 6th pick. Sometimes excuses are just that- excuses.

Jones is the type of qb you pick up as a starter when you have everything else in place. Maybe that was the plan along- center the offense on the generational RB and the qb goes along for the ride. If it was, you didn't need to spend the 6th pick.

The book on Daniel is being written by DC's- take away the middle of the field and make him work the real short stuff and the deep sidelines. Ask yourself why our guys, who aren't exactly speed demons, are getting open deep sidelines and why aren't DC's scheming more to stop it. Either Jones doesn't see it which I find it hard to believe that he's not seeing it every time or the DC's are not worried about him trying it.

In comment 15043427 Carl in CT said:

Quote:

QBR says No!

2020 QBR
Joe Burrow - 60.3
Daniel Jones - 54.4

Burrow also slaughters Jones in QB Rate 91.4 to 76.1

Burrow is a much better QB than DJ. Sorry to shatter your illusions.

In comment 15043297 David B. said:

Quote:

You don't want him to NEVER take chances, but he has to learn WHEN to take them, and when not to. What you saw in that Tampa game is what we've seen in other games, too. A lack of situational awareness. Those are the INTs you cannot have. That stuff comes with more experience. He still hasn't wised-up enough to realize that when he's flushed from the pocket and being chased, he shouldn't throw the ball downfield once the defender has hands on him. I get WHY he's doing it, but he needs to learn that's a really low-percentage throw, and that he should either throw it away (which he seldom does), or just take the sack. That said, if he every gets more protection, he won't be in these situations as often. So the criticism is fair. And until he corrects it, and the fumbling, he's going to hear criticism.

I think the bigger issue is he missed seeing wide open guys who were presumably the first read and also royally effed up the 2 pt. conversion. That seems like bad QB instincts to me particularly for the number 6 pick in the draft. That is concerning to me.

While I hate foolish interceptions at least DJ was trying to make something happen there. Just ill-advised.

The poor reading of the field at snap, missing on open throws down field and the delay/inaccurate 2pt conversion play are far more disconcerting.

In comment 15043371 Trainmaster said:

Quote:

"They had guys running deep three times and the quarterback doesn’t even look at them.That is the first read in the play." How does someone know what the first read is without knowing the play design and play call?

If it was the first INT play, it's because he looked at Slayton first and then ditched on the play.

Jones 61.2
JB 60.9

Is the QBR. (You might be looking at Raw)

was that he showed flashes of being able to make the bigtime throws that separate the good starting QBs from the JAG backup game managers. He was overaggressive and got away with a lot of INTs last year, but I found that aggressive trait to have both positive and negative implications since he was a rookie. He made enough impressive throws that it led me to believe his really low YPA last year didn't paint the complete picture of his big play ability.

This year has been really disappointing on that front. He has limited the fumbles a little bit but it's still too much and the turnovers in general are still very high due to the INTs and I've seen far fewer impressive "big boy" throws.

I've mentioned this in the past in regards to Saquon, so much of the NFL comes down to teams making big plays and preventing turnovers. I think Saquon's big play ability + his lack of fumbles made/make him a rare asset to have in this league, and I'm still high on him despite the other flaws. But on the flipside, we have Daniel Jones who is at the other end of the spectrum from a "Postive Big Play" to "Negative Big Play" perspective.

You can't even label Jones a "Game Manager" yet due to all the turnovers, yet he'll never be a true "Gunslinger" because his arm isn't at the level needed to get away with enough of those dangerous high-risk throws on a consistent basis. He's kind of stuck in the middle, and at this point it's an ugly worst of both worlds combination of high turnovers and extremely limited bigtime throws.

I'm still someone who thinks he should finish the year and then we can assess the future from there, but this has been a very disappointing season from Jones.

In comment 15043424 Carl in CT said:

Quote:

“Guys running deep” requires the line to block longer. If he holds the ball and goes to throw and his arm is hit (fumble) and you guys blame him every time. Do you see the time other QBs have to throw around the league?

Next Gen Stats says that Jones has more time than all but 9 starting QB's in the league. Yes, he is also 2nd or 3rd in pressures, but a lot of that is due to him holding the ball too long.

And QBR is hot garbage.

In comment 15043468 BigBlueCane said:

Quote:

designed to enrage and annoy the Low IQ and easily led. Again, if you have faith in Judge and Garret to do what they do best, Pay articles of this no mind. The Athletic dog-shit is designed to enrage and aggravate people and get them angry. Cut it out of your life as a person and a fan and you'll be much better off.

I'm being lead by data. You're choosing "faith" in two coaches who had no say in drafting the QB.

We all agree that TB was a bad game for Jones and that he not only failed to win the game but he actually lost the game. There have been others, this season and last where Jones lost the game due to turnovers and the Giants have been in game where Jones didn’t loose the game, but he also failed to win the game. Hey, that’s gonna happen. As folks point out, Eli had plenty of clunkers and duds.

My question is, what are the games that Jones has won for the Giants? Has he had a game where he picked up the team and carried it to a win? I can’t think of one but maybe someone else can? There’s so many excuses for Jones, and many are valid and fair. But, can he overcome the flaws? Can he make the team better and win games? Is he a franchise QB1 or is he JAG?

Like some others said above, not fumbling and not throwing a pick and putting up one touchdown a game ain’t what we had in mind for the 6th overall pick in the draft. Time to start winning some games DJ.

We all probably agree, as stated above, he's going to get year 3. After year 3, the "give him time" thing is off the table and a fair assessment can be made. If that assessment is he's not the guy, fine, but who knows what our options will be 1.5 seasons from now. I guess my point is, the issue is unripe.

where he fell down against Philly. He's wound too tight. A QB that feels the game and has enough of the game figured out isn't falling down when he's untouched like that.

Ever since then, I have been extremely concerned that the game is too fast and hectic and Jones is wound too tight. Things can change, but they better soon.

Last week's win against the Skins was a start, but he has a long way to go.

In comment 15043513 Section331 said:

Quote:

Next Gen Stats says that Jones has more time than all but 9 starting QB's in the league. Yes, he is also 2nd or 3rd in pressures, but a lot of that is due to him holding the ball too long. And QBR is hot garbage.

I'm thinking you may be right...

I've always been a strong advocate of QBR, but these last two years have eroded my confidence in the people making the judgments. Cases in point - this season, YTD...Jones has a higher QBR than Burrow. And Mayfield is ahead of Herbert.

I've made it a point to watch both Burrow and Herbert and they are playing the position significantly better than the comps above. It's not even close...

In comment 15043499 Carl in CT said:

Quote:

Jones 61.2 JB 60.9 Is the QBR. (You might be looking at Raw)

Here's my link..

where's yours.
football ref 2020 QB stats - ( New Window )

In comment 15043538 djm said:

Quote:

where he fell down against Philly. He's wound too tight. A QB that feels the game and has enough of the game figured out isn't falling down when he's untouched like that.

The first 70 yards was all Daniel Jones.

The last 10 was the "Eli" in him. :-)

In comment 15043541 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15043513 Section331 said: Quote: Next Gen Stats says that Jones has more time than all but 9 starting QB's in the league. Yes, he is also 2nd or 3rd in pressures, but a lot of that is due to him holding the ball too long. And QBR is hot garbage. I'm thinking you may be right... I've always been a strong advocate of QBR, but these last two years have eroded my confidence in the people making the judgments. Cases in point - this season, YTD...Jones has a higher QBR than Burrow. And Mayfield is ahead of Herbert. I've made it a point to watch both Burrow and Herbert and they are playing the position significantly better than the comps above. It's not even close...

It doesn't matter what stat you look at, Jones is statistically terrible. QBR is alright. It generally rewards very good QBs.

In comment 15043276 Blue21 said:

Quote:

in that offense. I think Judge is a better coach than Shurmur but not sure if Jones is more confident or comfortable in this offense. I can't believe what we saw last year was a fluke. There was just too many great games by him throwing 3, 4, and 5 TD's a game. I'm certainly no expert but just judging by what I saw. Where did that go?

People are overrating last year's performance. I've said this before, but how many times last year was the game close, and the opposition not terrible, and how many times did Jones get things done? Skins game? Tampa too? Ok, that's 2. Every other game last year was either over by the mid 3rd quarter or even sooner.

Jones was under NO pressure last season. It was the typical honeymoon type season. yes the talent around him sucked. YEs the team sucked. And yes, the Giants offense also sucked. Jones did little to nothing to help anything last year other than win 2 games.

In short, Jones has done next to nothing as a Giant. It's high time we all acknowledged that. Dave Brown did more in 1994 than Jones did in 2019. For one thing, Brown went into Cleveland, a winning team, and won a game late in the 4th quarter. He also won 9 games in 94.

Jones sucks until proven otherwise. Be honest about it. Remember Dave Brown. Just like remember the alamo.

In comment 15043538 djm said:

Quote:

where he fell down against Philly. He's wound too tight. A QB that feels the game and has enough of the game figured out isn't falling down when he's untouched like that. Ever since then, I have been extremely concerned that the game is too fast and hectic and Jones is wound too tight. Things can change, but they better soon. Last week's win against the Skins was a start, but he has a long way to go.

I think there is something to this. The game often looks too fast for him. He doesn't seem like a leader (which is totally subjective I know). Maybe that's the tightness you are seeing.

In comment 15043543 LBH15 said:

Quote:

In comment 15043538 djm said: Quote: where he fell down against Philly. He's wound too tight. A QB that feels the game and has enough of the game figured out isn't falling down when he's untouched like that. The first 70 yards was all Daniel Jones. The last 10 was the "Eli" in him. :-)

So he's got the worst of Eli in him. Wonderful.

In comment 15043546 Producer said:

Quote:

In comment 15043538 djm said: Quote: where he fell down against Philly. He's wound too tight. A QB that feels the game and has enough of the game figured out isn't falling down when he's untouched like that. Ever since then, I have been extremely concerned that the game is too fast and hectic and Jones is wound too tight. Things can change, but they better soon. Last week's win against the Skins was a start, but he has a long way to go. I think there is something to this. The game often looks too fast for him. He doesn't seem like a leader (which is totally subjective I know). Maybe that's the tightness you are seeing.

I am trying to be fair here too. Just because we live in an era of the young QB coming in and playing well right out of the gates, doesn't mean all young QBs can and will produce and it doesn't mean that a struggling young QB won't ever turn things around. Jones could be a legend in the making, who knows, but I can't even listen to someone say he's NOT playing poorly. Jones is the very embodiment of a bad QB right now. Don't wanna here about talent. I have talent. And I am right where I should be, behind a desk.

Jones doesn't see the whole field. Doesn't protect the ball enough. Doesn't make plays enough. Doesn't win games when the game is on the line, nearly enough.

it's that simple.

I defended ELi in 2014-2015- because the Giants offense scored points. Defended him in 2016 because the team was winning and tbhe team scored points when needed, thanks to Eli/Beckham 4th quarter heroics. Defended him after 2017 because 2017 was only the 2nd season out of 15 or so where Eli's offense had struggled to score points. 2018, NYG scored points. 2019 it was time to bench Eli because the team was losing and Jones was in the fold.

Jones has not earned any good will other than he's young.

In comment 15043414 GGGGmen said:

Quote:

is when you line him up against his contemporaries (Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Kyler) and it is crystal clear those guys are far better than he is. Jones has 4 wins against the Skins and he won his debut in TB. Other than that he is winless. Blame the OL, the injuries, the skill players all you want - the guy loses a ton.

He's not a #6 pick. That much should be clear.

With all due respect, Dave Brown was one of the worst QBs I have seen. The guy had the yips in the pocket and at times couldn't throw the ball into the ocean if he was standing on the beach. Granted, it was a different era, but Jones is more talented by a factor of 2X.

That period for the Giants post Simms was QB hell - Brown, Graham, Kanell, Maddox,

you need to look at a variety of different stats together. I think Y/A, time ball is held, pass block win rate and rushing statistics paint a much better picture. Mobility is so important and becoming more and more standard. The biggest problem with Jones is that unlike a QB like Rodgers holding the ball for longer doesn't really ever show up well in increased Y/A. When Jones holds onto the ball it is almost always bad.

Right now completion % is and has been way overvalued. To me lower Y/A can be much more excused if time the ball is held is lower and pass block win rate is lower. IE as a QB you can't hold onto the ball if you know your OL is bad, you have to know you need to get the ball out faster. To me that is the biggest problem with Jones. The OL has been bad for as long as he has started and he's never adjusted.

One of the real crimes of the Eli era was that the team seemingly didn't understand that Eli knew how to do things like place the ball perfectly on a back shoulder throw. And throw his receivers open. He didn't need stars at skill positions to succeed. Our front office has and seems to continue to not understand how to look at who you have on the team and build around the existing talent to stack wins.

We all want Jones to do well; it's what's best for the Giants and he's an easy guy to root for. But what we want doesn't mean shit. Peel away the excuses and rationalizations - he isn't good enough.

Could a switch flip that makes him good enough? Maybe - but there is no reason other than hope to think that will happen.

"Hope" should not enter into any calculations. The Giants entered 2020 with no contingency plan. They can't trust that mistake in 2021.

In comment 15043556 Go Terps said:

Quote:

We all want Jones to do well; it's what's best for the Giants and he's an easy guy to root for. But what we want doesn't mean shit. Peel away the excuses and rationalizations - he isn't good enough. Could a switch flip that makes him good enough? Maybe - but there is no reason other than hope to think that will happen. "Hope" should not enter into any calculations. The Giants entered 2020 with no contingency plan. They can't trust that mistake in 2021.

exactly. we want the switch to go on. It's not there yet. At this stage if it hasn't gone on, it is unlikely to happen. Still possible - for sure, but not likely. So the Giants need to start thinking about moving on and if Jones figures it all out, then it will be a good surprise.

.

begin their analysis with a conclusion. i'm curious how many of you function in the real world.

both qbs struggled throwing downfield. one is a developing qb with plenty of remaining question marks. one is likely the greatest ever.

anyone in northern nj can tell you that the wind incredibly intense that day. it is not at all surprising that a qb might make decisions based upon that.

the reality is that this game probably doesn't serve as a meaningful barometer in determining whether jones is the "right" answer at qb. that is particularly true when reviewing a small sample of decisions to not throw downfield.

and it never has w/o factoring in the human component.

See also Nate Silver.

In comment 15043553 bw in dc said:

Quote:

With all due respect, Dave Brown was one of the worst QBs I have seen. The guy had the yips in the pocket and at times couldn't throw the ball into the ocean if he was standing on the beach. Granted, it was a different era, but Jones is more talented by a factor of 2X. That period for the Giants post Simms was QB hell - Brown, Graham, Kanell, Maddox,

Completely agree but he did more in that 94 first season than Jones did in 2019. Or at least Brown did more winning than Jones ever did.

And again, think back to that game at Cleveland back in 94. Matt SGS did a review on it I believe. I was excited about Brown after that game and even that season, despite the ups and downs. Brown showed some glimpses that year. My point is, they all show glimpses. Doesn't mean shit if they don't play well all the time.

and intermediate routes where he can get the ball out of his hands fast. Otherwise, takes too long on his reads, gets in trouble and tries to do too much. The comparison to Eli is valid. Early in his career, Eli often had the same problem, plus accuracy problems when it looked like he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Jones may still develop, if he can get through his progressions faster, otherwise, I think he'll be limited to a QB that can only play in certain systems.

but comparing Jones to Eli (2005-2007) is unfair to ELi. Yea they both made mistakes, but one of them won a shit load of games and beat good teams while doing it. Drew Brees and Brett Favre threw a bunch of INTS too. Compare Jones to those guys?

Not to mention the grasp Eli had on the playbook and offense in general. Eli was underrated early on.

is that how we characterize the comments from one individual?