for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Revisiting the Odell Beckham Jr. trade —

Sean : 11/16/2020 6:48 pm
Giants Trade
Odell Beckham Jr.

Browns Trade
Jabrill Peppers
#17 Pick (Dexter Lawrence)
#95 Pick (Oshane Ximines)

I heard Cowherd reference the trade today on his show, so I figured it’d be a good time to revisit the trade. At the time, the universal opinion was the Giants lost the trade. However, it is no longer clear cut.

I feel bad for Beckham; it hasn’t worked out for him in Cleveland. I hated to see him get hurt again this year. The trade has not worked out as intended for Cleveland, there is no way around that.

As for the return, Peppers has shown more this year under this coaching staff. He’s had some nice returns in special teams. I’m hopeful he can play well alongside McKinney down the line.

Lawrence has arguably been Gettleman’s best pick, he is a keg on what hopefully becomes a strong defensive line. We’ll see if Oshane Ximines ever amounts to anything.

Lastly, a big portion of this trade will come down to Jones. I wonder if this trade was made with the idea that Jones was the pick at #6. Getting the extra first rounder may have made the decision to draft Jones easier for Gettleman and company.

One thing is certain, the trade paved the way for a much different direction for this franchise.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 <<Prev | Show All |
RE: RE: For Reference..  
DC Gmen Fan : 11/17/2020 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15048856 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 15048835 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Evans and Godwin had 7 more TD's and 400 more yards
Jones and Ridley had 100 more yards and 3 more TD's
Woods and Kupp had 200 more yards and 2 more TD's

It isn't even like Beckham and Landry are considered the top duo in the NFL. May not even be a top 5 duo



You see how many targets those guys got? Double what Landy has now..


Is that you Odell?
RE: Managing talent..  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.

That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.

Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.

I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham



Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.

I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..
RE: RE: Managing talent..  
Eric on Li : 11/17/2020 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15049025 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.

That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.

Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.

I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham




Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.

I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..


Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games)
101 receptions (59.8% catch rate)
85 yards per game (1367 for year)
13.5 ypc
10 tds

First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games)
77 receptions (62.1% catch rate)
87 yards per game (1052 for year)
13.7 ypc
6 tds

Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.
RE: Managing talent..  
Bill L : 11/17/2020 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.

That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.

Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.

I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham


Why is it always receivers? (Maybe a smattering of CB's).
Bill it's just a flashy 1 on 1 position  
Eric on Li : 11/17/2020 1:27 pm : link
Every game top receivers get 5-10 chances to posterize someone (like Hopkins did).

QB's have the ball the most but get blamed too much for anything bad that happens.

99% of RB/TE jobs aren't glamorous. OL and IDL/ILB forget about it. Nobody sees what they do.

Flashy edge rushers and shutdown CBs come closest, but receivers who can "moss" people get the attention because the game is the most obviously 1 on 1 for them.

The game has trended towards receivers producing more highlight worthy plays than anyone else, so they get the most praise, and have naturally produced the most players who crave that individual attention.
Loyalty  
Thegratefulhead : 11/17/2020 1:39 pm : link
I am a small business owner. Loyalty is a big deal to me. Not about managing talent in my opinion. If I give you a giant contract, I expect loyalty in return. He was done in NY the second that interview aired. No one will ever admit it but I will die believing ownership picked up the the phone and said get what you can for him within moments after they heard it. I would have done the exact same thing.
RE: RE: RE: Managing talent..  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15049034 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15049025 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.

That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.

Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.

I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham




Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.

I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..



Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games)
101 receptions (59.8% catch rate)
85 yards per game (1367 for year)
13.5 ypc
10 tds

First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games)
77 receptions (62.1% catch rate)
87 yards per game (1052 for year)
13.7 ypc
6 tds

Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.


Thanks for the stats. He didn't regress in 2019. He had almost the same stats had in 2018. He was injured all season..
RE: RE: RE: .  
allstarjim : 11/17/2020 1:44 pm : link
In comment 15048589 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15048580 GManinDC said:


Quote:


DK has a elite QB throwing the ball to him. OBJ had to deal with a bunch of other very good WR's on the team



DK also has other WRs on his team. Odell cannot even get open anymore. They no longer need to double him.

The worst thing that happened to OBJ was that catch when we lost to Dallas.


OK, come on. DK is an elite receiver and he'd be an elite receiver with or without Russell Wilson at QB or Tyler Lockett on the other side. If you've watched the Seahawks, he has become the #1 priority for opposing defenses to stop. He draws their best corner and often times help on top of that, and he still wins in those matchups often.
Whoa  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 1:52 pm : link
I didn't say DK was not a elite receiver
RE: RE: RE: Managing talent..  
eclipz928 : 11/17/2020 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15049034 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15049025 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.

That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.

Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.

I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham




Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.

I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..



Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games)
101 receptions (59.8% catch rate)
85 yards per game (1367 for year)
13.5 ypc
10 tds

First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games)
77 receptions (62.1% catch rate)
87 yards per game (1052 for year)
13.7 ypc
6 tds

Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.

It's more accurate to say that the quarterback throwing Beckham the ball regressed in 2019. Again, it's not productive to compare Beckham's stats year to year as if everything around him is static. I know people like him quite a bit, but Baker Mayfield has yet to prove that he's any better than an average passer in the NFL - and that has to be factored in when evaluating Beckham's numbers in Cleveland.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
allstarjim : 11/17/2020 2:09 pm : link
In comment 15048636 BelieveJJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15048546 allstarjim said:


Quote:



I'm glad you're not in charge, because that's dumb. First, they are both better players than Slayton by a wide margin. Second, nothing precludes you from drafting Slayton in round 5 if you also drafted either of the other players. Third, the team would still be built around the defensive line as both of those guys were 2nd rounders picked after our 2019 2nd round pick that Gettleman traded, along with #132 and #142 for DeAndre Baker, who we all know was a bad deal and a waste of resources.

In other words, we could've had either of those guys, plus we'd still have Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Williams on the DL, so what's the point of saying, "this team is built around the defensive line"? It would still be that way and we'd have superior talent at WR to go with it. The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources, or 'haven't you noticed'?

A mismatch WR remains a big need on this team, and it's likely that in 2021 a premium pick will be required to get one, and whoever we pick, there's a decent enough chance they won't be as dominant as the aforementioned players.

You can like what DG and Judge are building and still reserve some criticism of DG for wasting that opportunity on a ill-conceived and unwise trade.



ASJ thanks for responding to my criticism of GT but you've missed both my main points.

First you continue in Terps' vein of of playing "you could have drafted so and so."
It's a BS game with extremely stacked odds, when looking at individual players. The only real argument to make about "could have drafted" in the draft is about positional value, not about players. So Getty can take one fairly on the chin for Barkley, but not for Jones, and really not for Baker IMO.

My main point was anyone can criticise any GM and say "you could have picked so and so". It's meaningless. (The only exceptions to the rule are guys like Lawrence Taylor as a top of the draft guy [and even re Taylor you could claim Pat Swilling was a better draft VALUE in round 2] or Jerry Rice - they are rare historical artifacts.

So please chuck that could have drafted X argument. Another crucial point you make may very well be flat out wrong:


Quote:


The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources.



The goal is to build a TEAM, where all the pieces fit together, NOT TO accumulate great players.

So, so far as top WR talent goes, I wonder how much JJ and DG value those guys. Passed up plenty of opportunities last year in the WR market, didn't they?


Yeah they passed on opportunities in the receiver market because when you don't have an offensive line or really much in the back 7 of that defense with the exception of their free agent signings and Peppers. The general philosophy of Gettleman appears to be to be tough in the trenches and defense first. It's a philosophy I generally agree with. So there's good reason to have focused on OL and defense in that draft, and eschew WR.

That said, they burned 3 picks to draft Baker, when similarly graded corners were on the board. I understand they had Baker as their top corner in the class. However, they seemed to be unaware of the whispers that he was a behavioral / character flag...which was reported and known in the scouting community, and they yet burned three picks on him.

When you miss that badly, you deserve the criticism. Trades are risky, but you have to weigh the upshot of what is available at your 2nd round pick at #37 (only 7 picks later), and what the value is of #132, and decide if the player you want is worth that investment. They decided a CB with mediocre speed and a character flag was worth that investment, while Tampa might have gotten the best corner in the draft at #39 overall.

And while you can easily say all these other teams passed on Brown and Metcalf, at least in Brown's case he was a well-known prospect who was very well thought of in draft circles as a complete receiver who was NFL-ready. And in terms of building a culture, both of them were clean prospects who have done nothing but work extremely hard and dominate on Sundays.

You can say what you want about building a team over great players, but let's face it, they fucked up. You're not passing on great players that you also think will fit into the team culture, and both of those guys would. The only question on DK was if he could run the entire route tree. Turns out he can.

Not only did they pass on better players/prospects, they traded up and wasted additional resources on a player with a known character flag...so either they didn't know about the character issues, or they felt the upshot was worth it to get what they felt would be an island type of cover corner, blowing away the "team" argument. In either case, it's terrible from a scouting and draft resource management standpoint, whether or not they would have used pick #37 on Brown or Metcalf. And Gettleman deserves the criticism for that.

Your argument that "the goal is to build a team" is just fine, but Baker is no longer on this team and he really didn't add anything to the teambuilding atmosphere when he was here, either.
I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
djm : 11/17/2020 2:15 pm : link
but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
RE: Whoa  
allstarjim : 11/17/2020 2:16 pm : link
In comment 15049088 GManinDC said:
Quote:
I didn't say DK was not a elite receiver


That's fine and all, and I'm not really keeping track of who is saying what. What I am saying is that you have people trying to lessen what a player is by pointing out that said player has Russell Wilson throwing him the ball or that Tyler Lockett is playing on the other side. It's nonsense. He's a great player, period, you don't need to mention any of that other stuff because it doesn't matter. Those factors aren't what makes him great, he'd be great with them or without them.

The same thing happens here when discussing QB play over the years, both with Eli and Jones. When Eli was struggling year after year, all you heard about was how the OL wasn't good, or that Beckham was hurt, or they didn't have a good run game to help him. No, Eli was no longer a winning QB, period. It's an attempt to obfuscate the truth, which was very simple, and independent of those other factors. It was time to move on because he was no longer good enough.
Giants didn't trade Beckham  
djm : 11/17/2020 2:16 pm : link
because they were annoyed by the so called distractions. they traded him because someone made an offer they liked and Odell was getting more and more dangerous with the trade me whispers. The Giants sold their stock before it hit 0. It's that simple.
RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/17/2020 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15049116 djm said:
Quote:
but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.


If you don’t think that type of shit circulates and causes problems in a locker room like an old lady sewing circle your being naive. Pat McAfee says it on his show all the time, the way the locker room is is imperative as far as team failures/successes go that is often overlooked by fans.
RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 2:20 pm : link
In comment 15049116 djm said:
Quote:
but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.


Thank you

/end thread
RE: You don’t quit on talent until talent quits on you  
djm : 11/17/2020 2:21 pm : link
In comment 15048940 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Said he wanted to play somewhere else and was loading on field. Even if he was still an elite player not sure what you can do there.


Exactly. The Giants historically stick with their home grown stars unless shit goes south.

And this one of my biggest concerns with DG. He's VERY quick to the draw on older vets and it can bite him. For every Beckham or Vernon trade there's a JPP move in there too and even going back to Greg Olsen and Steve Smith in Carolina. Both had life when DG wanted to dump them both, especially Smith when he went to Balt.

If you love seeing good players stick here in NY for a long time, DG aint your guy. Sometimes this is a good thing but not always.
. . . when did Beckham say that he wanted  
eclipz928 : 11/17/2020 2:34 pm : link
to play somewhere else? I'm confused about where people are getting the idea that he wanted to be traded from the Giants.
RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
Thegratefulhead : 11/17/2020 2:50 pm : link
In comment 15049116 djm said:
Quote:
but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/17/2020 2:52 pm : link
i get the argument of "well we shouldn't have signed him" that's definitely a fair take. But...the returns of the trade have been pretty good to really good if Lawrence improves from what he is now, and Peppers plays like the way he's been used in Graham's new system.

We got 2 talented defensive starters for Beckham. That's a pretty solid return for a guy who had worn out his welcome here.
RE: ...  
Thegratefulhead : 11/17/2020 2:53 pm : link
In comment 15049140 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i get the argument of "well we shouldn't have signed him" that's definitely a fair take. But...the returns of the trade have been pretty good to really good if Lawrence improves from what he is now, and Peppers plays like the way he's been used in Graham's new system.

We got 2 talented defensive starters for Beckham. That's a pretty solid return for a guy who had worn out his welcome here.
agree
RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
mfsd : 11/17/2020 2:56 pm : link
In comment 15049116 djm said:
Quote:
but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.


All due respect, but you couldn't be more wrong. Anyone who has spent time in a football locker room at any level knows that selfish players causing distractions can 100% have a negative effect on team chemistry, and that can very easily hurt performance on the field.

I know a lot of you see football through the lense of fantasy stats, but team chemistry and culture matters.
I don't agree either  
UConn4523 : 11/17/2020 3:12 pm : link
some distractions are easy to navigate - see Judge on Tate. And others Belichick doesn't even want to deal with - most recently with Antonio Brown and all the other players he's told to fuck off.

I do 100% agree that fans make up narratives on what's a bad distraction but I think it was legit with Beckham.
RE: RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 3:26 pm : link
In comment 15049138 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15049116 djm said:


Quote:


but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.


What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?
RE: . . . when did Beckham say that he wanted  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 3:26 pm : link
In comment 15049129 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
to play somewhere else? I'm confused about where people are getting the idea that he wanted to be traded from the Giants.


all it takes is one person to say it and it becomes fact..
RE: RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
UConn4523 : 11/17/2020 3:36 pm : link
In comment 15049120 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 15049116 djm said:


Quote:


but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.



Thank you

/end thread


Sounds to me like you've never played sports. That isn't how "distractions" work. Games are played on sundays but the hard work is done all week long and that's where camaraderie, work ethic, planning, training, etc all comes into play. If none of that matters then you wouldn't ever see good players traded away or flat out cut.

Go ask Judge about distractions and what he thinks of them. He's address why he doesn't talk negatively about players to the media - he said he doesn't want them to become season long distractions.
ASJ - appreciate your laying out your understanding of all the  
BelieveJJ : 11/17/2020 3:39 pm : link
facts around why drafting Baker was so bad. And there's no argument now that he was an awful pick.

Now, after the fact when new information has come to light!

A scout was fired due to the miss out on Baker, and ultimately DG has to accept the responsibility for the failed pick, no argument there.

But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.

One UGA media guy glowingly called Baker best CB in the entire history of UGA football!

After he came to training camp as a Giant, reports of him sleeping during team meetings, and sleeping in the players' lounge area, rather than studying his playbook like most all the other rookies would, came to light.

If you have a documented source of published info re the behavioral red flags around Baker prior to the draft (not the combine speed issue), I'd love to see them.

Enjoy the debate, thanks.
RE: RE: RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
Thegratefulhead : 11/17/2020 4:05 pm : link
In comment 15049172 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 15049138 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15049116 djm said:


Quote:


but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.



What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?
The bruised quad that cost him 4 games. A bruised quad. It's the NFL. They all have bruised something, every day.
RE: ASJ - appreciate your laying out your understanding of all the  
bw in dc : 11/17/2020 4:09 pm : link
In comment 15049189 BelieveJJ said:
Quote:

But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.



I believe Sy pointed out some red flags. But I need to dig it up.
I do not understand the excuses for OBJ's performance as a Brown  
Eric on Li : 11/17/2020 4:27 pm : link
in his 5 years as a NYG he averaged 93 yards per game. his last 2 full years as a NYG, with 2 different coaches/schemes he averaged 85 yards per game (2016 under McAdoo and 2018 under Shurmur) and paced roughly to 10 touchdowns per year.

In his 2 years in CLE he has averaged 58 yards per game and paced to about 6 touchdowns per year.

That's an astronomical production difference that simply can't be explained by anything other than the performance of the guy wearing the #13 jersey.

I'm so old I can remember when Eli Manning was holding OBJ back and Baker Mayfield's deep ball was going to unleash his true potential. Now he can't even match the productivity of Jarvis Landry in the exact same situational circumstances, which is striking because prior to the last 2 years Landry wasn't on the same planet as OBJ in terms of productivity.

I don't think anyone could have honestly predicted this fall off and I am not making any sort of point about the trade other than the timing of his demise being incredibly unfortunate for the Browns. The 4th + 7th round picks they sent to Miami for Jarvis Landry were obviously far better ROI.
What are you talking about?  
eclipz928 : 11/17/2020 5:14 pm : link
Jarvis Landry 2019-2020: 64.8 yds/gm, 4.8 rec/gm, 6 TDs

Odell Beckham 2019-2020: 58.8 yds/gm, 4.2 rec/gm, 7 TDs

It's a 6 yard and half a reception difference between them per game - their numbers couldn't be much more identical than that.
Not on the same planet???  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 5:26 pm : link
Have you looked at Jarvis Landry's stats!!??. He was the #1 before the trade. They are not
RE: RE: RE: RE: I hate many labels and platitudes in sports  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 5:28 pm : link
In comment 15049219 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15049172 GManinDC said:


Quote:


In comment 15049138 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15049116 djm said:


Quote:


but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.



What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?

The bruised quad that cost him 4 games. A bruised quad. It's the NFL. They all have bruised something, every day.


So what are you implying??. he faked the injury??
RE: ASJ - appreciate your laying out your understanding of all the  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 5:30 pm : link
In comment 15049189 BelieveJJ said:
Quote:
facts around why drafting Baker was so bad. And there's no argument now that he was an awful pick.

Now, after the fact when new information has come to light!

A scout was fired due to the miss out on Baker, and ultimately DG has to accept the responsibility for the failed pick, no argument there.

But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.

One UGA media guy glowingly called Baker best CB in the entire history of UGA football!

After he came to training camp as a Giant, reports of him sleeping during team meetings, and sleeping in the players' lounge area, rather than studying his playbook like most all the other rookies would, came to light.

If you have a documented source of published info re the behavioral red flags around Baker prior to the draft (not the combine speed issue), I'd love to see them.

Enjoy the debate, thanks.


You know the scout that got fired is the same scout DG promoted?. He basically promoted the guy and then fired him the next year..
Let's not overhype..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/17/2020 5:34 pm : link
Landry either. The guy has no TD's this season. He's only had more than 5TD's twice, and he's hit 1,000 yards in only 3 of his six full seasons.

On top of that, he had a season with 112 receptions AND DIDN'T BREAK 1,000 YARDS!

Landry is a decent WR, but, he's likely not a top 20 guy in the NFL. Probably just a tier above Slayton.
RE: What are you talking about?  
Eric on Li : 11/17/2020 5:39 pm : link
In comment 15049303 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
Jarvis Landry 2019-2020: 64.8 yds/gm, 4.8 rec/gm, 6 TDs

Odell Beckham 2019-2020: 58.8 yds/gm, 4.2 rec/gm, 7 TDs

It's a 6 yard and half a reception difference between them per game - their numbers couldn't be much more identical than that.


Reread what I said (bolded).

In comment 15049236 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Now he can't even match the productivity of Jarvis Landry in the exact same situational circumstances, which is striking because prior to the last 2 years Landry wasn't on the same planet as OBJ in terms of productivity.


OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR. His NYG career average of 93 yards per game would be 2nd best all time behind Julio Jones and the 2 of them would be the only players above 90 yards per game. Ahead of Calvin Johnson, Deandre Hopkins, Antonio Brown, and Michael Thomas (as well as all time greats like Harrison, TO, Moss, etc - though obviously it's a slightly different era).

Jarvis Landry is a good player but on another planet compared to what Beckham was prior to the last 2 years - which is why their cost of acquisition was so different in the first place.
RE: RE: ASJ - appreciate your laying out your understanding of all the  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/17/2020 6:05 pm : link
In comment 15049222 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15049189 BelieveJJ said:


Quote:



But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.





I believe Sy pointed out some red flags. But I need to dig it up.


They were definitely there because I remember being pissed about taking Baker over Murphy when all we talked about is culture and turn around anc draft some guy with work ethic issues
A bruised quad can be played through. They take forever to loosen  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/17/2020 6:09 pm : link
and get warmed up enough to play, but it’s 100 percent doable. He didn’t want to go through the type of work to get it ready daily for practice and games in a lost season. Take of that what you will, but that’s exactly what happened and I speak from personal experience. It’s much more than all the tough guys acting like it’s just a bruise. But it takes an hour plus of warming up and heating pads just to get ready for warmups everyday.
I'm not overhyping Landy  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 6:09 pm : link
He was that good in Miami..

I think people are very understating how bad Mayfield is. Which is not an excuse but he is terrible. And what BBI and the media said about him before does not mean jack shit right now.
Zeke  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 6:20 pm : link
If you haven't figured it out by now, if you're not talking facts to me, I don't wish to debate.

All you been saying is a bunch of group talk not has no basis of fact.\

If you have personal experience that OBJ didn't put the work in to play in these games, even when he was show working out prior to the game and was game time decisions, please provide..

I don't deal with conspiracy theorist..
anyway I'm done  
GManinDC : 11/17/2020 6:25 pm : link
thanks for getting me straight on the trade.
RE: Zeke  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/17/2020 6:37 pm : link
In comment 15049350 GManinDC said:
Quote:
If you haven't figured it out by now, if you're not talking facts to me, I don't wish to debate.

All you been saying is a bunch of group talk not has no basis of fact.\

If you have personal experience that OBJ didn't put the work in to play in these games, even when he was show working out prior to the game and was game time decisions, please provide..

I don't deal with conspiracy theorist..


Well that’s even worse. That means he just didn’t want to play. It’s a fucking muscle contusion. There isn’t any risk of further injury. Are you his cousin or something you are going to awfully long lengths to defend a guy that has worn out his welcome in two places.
Landry caught a lot of balls in miami  
UConn4523 : 11/17/2020 7:10 pm : link
but he was barely a scoring threat and never hit 1200 yards. He was a good #2, definitely not good enough to be a teams primary WR.

How is that even a debate?
RE: RE: What are you talking about?  
eclipz928 : 11/17/2020 7:11 pm : link
In comment 15049323 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15049303 eclipz928 said:


Quote:


Jarvis Landry 2019-2020: 64.8 yds/gm, 4.8 rec/gm, 6 TDs

Odell Beckham 2019-2020: 58.8 yds/gm, 4.2 rec/gm, 7 TDs

It's a 6 yard and half a reception difference between them per game - their numbers couldn't be much more identical than that.



Reread what I said (bolded).

In comment 15049236 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


Now he can't even match the productivity of Jarvis Landry in the exact same situational circumstances, which is striking because prior to the last 2 years Landry wasn't on the same planet as OBJ in terms of productivity.




OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR. His NYG career average of 93 yards per game would be 2nd best all time behind Julio Jones and the 2 of them would be the only players above 90 yards per game. Ahead of Calvin Johnson, Deandre Hopkins, Antonio Brown, and Michael Thomas (as well as all time greats like Harrison, TO, Moss, etc - though obviously it's a slightly different era).

Jarvis Landry is a good player but on another planet compared to what Beckham was prior to the last 2 years - which is why their cost of acquisition was so different in the first place.

But that's not an accurate assessment of Jarvis Landry - when Cleveland acquired him they actually did believe he was on the same planet as Beckham. It's the reason why they gave him a contract that made him the 5th highest paid receiver in the league at the time.

And they weren't entirely wrong - Landry didn't have Beckham's stats while he was in Miami, but he was regarded as one of the better receivers in the league and was expected to continue growing in a new offense and with another QB throwing to him.

. . . that didn't happen, and that's the main point. Landry's production has actually fallen off some since arriving in Cleveland. There isn't ANY receiver that is excelling over there despite the level of talent that they have had on their offense. If you're trying to understand why Beckham's numbers have been so mediocre since leaving NY, you have to look at other variables.
I just see a lot of revisionist history with regard Jarvis Landry  
eclipz928 : 11/17/2020 7:13 pm : link
because for whatever reason it's hard for people to accept that Baker Mayfield isn't very good.
RE: RE: What are you talking about?  
EricJ : 11/17/2020 7:26 pm : link
In comment 15049323 Eric on Li said:
Quote:

OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR.


He was in his first two seasons.. not right before he joined Cleveland.
eclipz928 if Landry was an elite WR why did he only cost a 4th + 7th?  
Eric on Li : 11/17/2020 7:28 pm : link
he was actually 1 year younger than OBJ when acquired too.

The answer is because he was about to get a contract far richer than his actual impact. Comparing Jarvis Landry to OBJ simply because they both got paid is like comparing Olivier Vernon to Khalil Mack.

Also not sure what you are talking about in terms of Landry's performance being meaningfully different pre and post trade.

Jarvis Landry 4 years in MIA - 4k yards (63 yards per game)
Jarvis Landry 2.5 years in CLE - 2.5k (63 yards per game)
makes his career averages pretty easy to guess doesn't it? He is and always has been a solid 1k yard receiver. OBJ on the other hand was a potential HOF'er as a giant.

That's why even Landy's career best season (73 yards per game) is not that close to OBJ's averages with the Giants (93 yards per game). And if you say yards are overrated, ok, how about touchdowns?

In just his first 4.5 years with the Giants OBJ had 44 TDs.
In year 7 Landry is currently sitting on 32 TDs.

The only viable comparison between the 2 players is the diminished version of OBJ that's played for the Browns the past 2 years. Which is sort of the entire point. The Browns paid a HOF price via trade for what has been a lesser version of Jarvis Landry.
RE: RE: RE: What are you talking about?  
Eric on Li : 11/17/2020 7:31 pm : link
In comment 15049386 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15049323 Eric on Li said:


Quote:



OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR.



He was in his first two seasons.. not right before he joined Cleveland.


He wasn't as good as his first 2 years but this is debateable. In 2016 and 2018 (his last 2 full seasons as a NYG) he averaged about 86 yards per game and was pacing towards 10 tds both years. 86 yards per game would still have him in the top 5 all time of ypg for a WR.

Completely agree he probably was no longer the guy averaging over 100 yards per game and 15+ touchdowns. That guy would have been the best WR of all time. But he was still a top 5-10 player at his position. The fall off outside the top 25 was not predictable.
RE: I just see a lot of revisionist history with regard Jarvis Landry  
UConn4523 : 11/17/2020 7:35 pm : link
In comment 15049380 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
because for whatever reason it's hard for people to accept that Baker Mayfield isn't very good.


I’m citing his time in Miami, this isn’t revisionist history. He has never been an elite WR, really not close to it. No YAC, limited scoring ability, lots of chain moving catches. Very good #2 WR, but that’s it.

Our own Steve smith had a better year in 2009 than any of Landry’s and Smith wasn’t a #1 either.
RE: RE: I just see a lot of revisionist history with regard Jarvis Landry  
eclipz928 : 11/17/2020 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15049393 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15049380 eclipz928 said:


Quote:


because for whatever reason it's hard for people to accept that Baker Mayfield isn't very good.



I’m citing his time in Miami, this isn’t revisionist history. He has never been an elite WR, really not close to it. No YAC, limited scoring ability, lots of chain moving catches. Very good #2 WR, but that’s it.

Our own Steve smith had a better year in 2009 than any of Landry’s and Smith wasn’t a #1 either.
Yes. In fact Eli Manning has been directly responsible for some great performances from a lot of different receivers that have played for the Giants. Because the quarterback has the greatest impact on a wide receiver's production . . .
Pages: 1 2 3 4 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner