Giants Trade
Odell Beckham Jr.
Browns Trade
Jabrill Peppers
#17 Pick (Dexter Lawrence)
#95 Pick (Oshane Ximines)
I heard Cowherd reference the trade today on his show, so I figured it’d be a good time to revisit the trade. At the time, the universal opinion was the Giants lost the trade. However, it is no longer clear cut.
I feel bad for Beckham; it hasn’t worked out for him in Cleveland. I hated to see him get hurt again this year. The trade has not worked out as intended for Cleveland, there is no way around that.
As for the return, Peppers has shown more this year under this coaching staff. He’s had some nice returns in special teams. I’m hopeful he can play well alongside McKinney down the line.
Lawrence has arguably been Gettleman’s best pick, he is a keg on what hopefully becomes a strong defensive line. We’ll see if Oshane Ximines ever amounts to anything.
Lastly, a big portion of this trade will come down to Jones. I wonder if this trade was made with the idea that Jones was the pick at #6. Getting the extra first rounder may have made the decision to draft Jones easier for Gettleman and company.
One thing is certain, the trade paved the way for a much different direction for this franchise.
However I hate assessing trades based on the players selected with the picks - it wasn’t a draft day trade. The goal was to get assets and that’s what we got.
If you trade away a player for a 1st round pick and then a year later that pick is a bust, that doesn’t mean the trade sucked it means you picked the wrong player.
Comparable to how Shockey getting hurt in 2007 took pressure off a young Eli
However I hate assessing trades based on the players selected with the picks - it wasn’t a draft day trade. The goal was to get assets and that’s what we got.
If you trade away a player for a 1st round pick and then a year later that pick is a bust, that doesn’t mean the trade sucked it means you picked the wrong player.
Didn’t we also get Kevin Zeitler?.
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given the circumstances and even better now.
However I hate assessing trades based on the players selected with the picks - it wasn’t a draft day trade. The goal was to get assets and that’s what we got.
If you trade away a player for a 1st round pick and then a year later that pick is a bust, that doesn’t mean the trade sucked it means you picked the wrong player.
Didn’t we also get Kevin Zeitler?.
Zietler for Olivier Vernon was done a week earlier but i think was officially folded into the deal in the end
Didn’t we also get Kevin Zeitler?.
Zietler for Olivier Vernon was done a week earlier but i think was officially folded into the deal in the end
I also heard or read somewhere that the OV for Zeitler deal was indeed a part of the overall OBJ for picks and Peppers deal.
Which makes it even better for DG.
The hoi poloi of BBI of course, cried: Jabril Peppers sux! No way is he equivalent to a first round draft pick - since DG sorta claimed Peppers was "like" getting another 1st round pick, like the one he used to nab Lawrence.
But it's lame to review this with OBJ out with an ACL....
That being said, with hindsight, since he shattered his ankle in 2017, he has never been the same. That transcendent player that had arguably the greatest 3 year start to a career for a WR in NFL history does not exist anymore. Signing him and then trading him hurt our cap in the short term, but trading him was 100% the right move. The bigger issue is that our management has done nothing to attempt to replace his production.
1. He paid him to trade him a year later, incurring $16M in dead cap space
2. He likely had better deals on the table in the 2018 off-season, but supposedly let Shurmur talk him into keeping him.
Beckham was a clown who had to go, but it could and should have been done much better than it was.
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
His production so far in Cleveland is not a good barometer because the quarterback throwing to him is not very good.
1. He paid him to trade him a year later, incurring $16M in dead cap space
2. He likely had better deals on the table in the 2018 off-season, but supposedly let Shurmur talk him into keeping him.
Beckham was a clown who had to go, but it could and should have been done much better than it was.
Add one more...
3. He didn't shop the deal. We have no idea what the 49ers would have offered...because he didn't even ask them.
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
Doesn’t even matter. His body wasn’t built to last in the NFL. By the end of this season, he’ll have played in 38 of a possible 64 games over the past 4 years.
Selling high on him was one of the smartest things DG has done
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
I imagine that being an NFL coach is hard enough without having to account for babysitting idiots. Beckham was an idiot here, and his best days were behind him anyway. The only mistake was not trading him sooner.
Oh, if that were only the worst of DG and his bad deals.
Oh, if that were only the worst of DG and his bad deals.
The Giants would not have gotten that return if Beckham wasn't signed to an extension. Sure it would have been better from a cap stand point but the Giants would have likely just received a 1st round pick alone.
Look it would have been great if Beckham stayed and was the player he was pre-injury but he didn't have the same explosion that he had prior to the injury. He's still a great talent but his behavior just got tiresome especially when the Giants were losing which was often. Beckham wants to win but he also craves being in the spotlight.
He was a special talent, you just don't see WRs who accelerate at the moment of the catch the way he did which allowed him to smoke DBs in such absurd fashion (all those insane slant TDs). Odell had his shortcomings, but the guy was a special talent before the injuries sapped him of that HOF explosiveness. One knock on Odell was always that he wasn't the most physical player so he couldn't make up for the loss of quickness/explosiveness by relying on positioning/physicality like other WRs.
It's a shame that he's probably never going to return to the levels of his first 2 seasons. So in hindsight, I guess I was foolish for thinking he could've gotten back to his peak level at the time of the trade. As it stands, the Giants made the right move.
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got taken to woodshed on giving him the contract and eating a good bit of it.
Oh, if that were only the worst of DG and his bad deals.
The Giants would not have gotten that return if Beckham wasn't signed to an extension.
and you know this how?
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In comment 15048423 LBH15 said:
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got taken to woodshed on giving him the contract and eating a good bit of it.
Oh, if that were only the worst of DG and his bad deals.
The Giants would not have gotten that return if Beckham wasn't signed to an extension.
and you know this how?
Common sense? If you are trading for a player that costs less money on your cap and has more years of control, that's a good thing?
There is an almost 0% chance Beckham had more value post-2017 coming off a broken leg and basically in a contract dispute than he had post-2018 when he proved he was healthy and was signed with the NYG incurring the SB$ on their cap.
After this year the Browns can cut him free and clear with 0 dead money any of the next 3 years because the Giants ate the prorated signing bonus when they dealt him.
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What was needed was more strict coaching and accountability.
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
I imagine that being an NFL coach is hard enough without having to account for babysitting idiots. Beckham was an idiot here, and his best days were behind him anyway. The only mistake was not trading him sooner.
Interesting that the year he was traded he played all 16 game with a injured hernia and had over 1000 yards..
Unlike a guy like Tate, who you was fine with signing. Praised the YAC and good nature. How's that turning out??
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In comment 15048408 GManinDC said:
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What was needed was more strict coaching and accountability.
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
I imagine that being an NFL coach is hard enough without having to account for babysitting idiots. Beckham was an idiot here, and his best days were behind him anyway. The only mistake was not trading him sooner.
Interesting that the year he was traded he played all 16 game with a injured hernia and had over 1000 yards..
Unlike a guy like Tate, who you was fine with signing. Praised the YAC and good nature. How's that turning out??
Tate as a Giant (12 starts, 19 games) - 73 receptions / 49.8 ypg / 13 ypc / 8 tds / 61% catch% / 7.9 yards per target
OBJ as a Brown (22 starts, 22 games) - 97 receptions / 58.9 ypg / 14 ypc / 8 tds / 55% catch% / 7.7 yards per target
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In comment 15048408 GManinDC said:
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What was needed was more strict coaching and accountability.
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
I imagine that being an NFL coach is hard enough without having to account for babysitting idiots. Beckham was an idiot here, and his best days were behind him anyway. The only mistake was not trading him sooner.
Interesting that the year he was traded he played all 16 game with a injured hernia and had over 1000 yards..
Unlike a guy like Tate, who you was fine with signing. Praised the YAC and good nature. How's that turning out??
Better than it we'd kept Beckham if for no other reason that Tate is cheaper. I'll be fine seeing Tate go too.
Beckham's a punk and a loser. That's been borne out repeatedly here and in Cleveland. Good riddance.
He's no longer an elite WR, and he's still injured and missing games. Frankly, he may not have been elite by the time we unloaded him.
His peak now is a 1000 yard, 5 TD player. And even that will be a huge stretch to accomplish
People forget that after we signed OBJ to the big contract, he said he would rather play in Los Angeles. I guarantee John Mara threw more chairs when he heard that... right after signing the largest check in franchise history.
Then, he basically quits and refuses to play through a minor injury later that season.
I guarantee Mara said to get this child off of my team.
Odell is always a victim apparently and nothing is his fault. When we traded him, he was not the player we saw in his first two seasons. That Odell was long gone.
It is basically over for him and he will be nothing more than an average NFL WR from the day he was traded.
To the person earlier in the thread who said we did not replace his production. What production are you talking about? He has not replaced his own production since he left. In fact, Slayton has more than matched OBJs production over the past two seasons.
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got taken to woodshed on giving him the contract and eating a good bit of it.
Oh, if that were only the worst of DG and his bad deals.
The Giants would not have gotten that return if Beckham wasn't signed to an extension. Sure it would have been better from a cap stand point but the Giants would have likely just received a 1st round pick alone.
Look it would have been great if Beckham stayed and was the player he was pre-injury but he didn't have the same explosion that he had prior to the injury. He's still a great talent but his behavior just got tiresome especially when the Giants were losing which was often. Beckham wants to win but he also craves being in the spotlight.
Didn’t say the trade was bad.
Come to think of it we could have drafted both of those guys.
Come to think of it we could have drafted both of those guys.
"We could have drafted those guys"... Is an idiotic and self serving argument after the fact. It's a game loaded in favor of anyone willing to take such low hanging fruit, with odds of 31 to 1 that the person posting it will be "right" just by chance.
The entire league passed on Metcalf in round 1, so really, whats the point? And which one of them will devolve into a diva, eventually?
I'll take Darius Slayton in round FIVE for 200, Alex, over either Brown or Metcalf.
Thanks for cheating, errr I mean playing.
And BTW, this team, Joe Judge's team, is based on an extremely stout DL.
Or hadn't you noticed?
Oh well.
For one, OBJ was not going to fit into the culture that is being built here. I'm not the biggest fan of Peppers, but he does have some value. There are skills that he has, and he's a legitimate starter. Lawrence, however, has tremendous value in the middle of the defense. I think he's a bit underappreciated here, but I do believe he's a big part of the reason that the defense has played pretty well all season, and in particular, very well against the run. And he's on a rookie deal, playing well.
Ximines is a rotational piece, and there's some value. However, what we know about OBJ (sans the injuries), and what we know about Lawrence, I would do that deal right now 1 for 1. Some might disagree, but I would do it, and I'm a fan of OBJ's game.
DG was wise to unload him before his reputation as a player declined
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Cleveland could have kept the picks and drafted AJ Brown or DK Metcalf, both of whom are better players than Beckham and on cheap rookie contracts.
Come to think of it we could have drafted both of those guys.
"We could have drafted those guys"... Is an idiotic and self serving argument after the fact. It's a game loaded in favor of anyone willing to take such low hanging fruit, with odds of 31 to 1 that the person posting it will be "right" just by chance.
The entire league passed on Metcalf in round 1, so really, whats the point? And which one of them will devolve into a diva, eventually?
I'll take Darius Slayton in round FIVE for 200, Alex, over either Brown or Metcalf.
Thanks for cheating, errr I mean playing.
And BTW, this team, Joe Judge's team, is based on an extremely stout DL.
Or hadn't you noticed?
I'm glad you're not in charge, because that's dumb. First, they are both better players than Slayton by a wide margin. Second, nothing precludes you from drafting Slayton in round 5 if you also drafted either of the other players. Third, the team would still be built around the defensive line as both of those guys were 2nd rounders picked after our 2019 2nd round pick that Gettleman traded, along with #132 and #142 for DeAndre Baker, who we all know was a bad deal and a waste of resources.
In other words, we could've had either of those guys, plus we'd still have Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Williams on the DL, so what's the point of saying, "this team is built around the defensive line"? It would still be that way and we'd have superior talent at WR to go with it. The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources, or 'haven't you noticed'?
A mismatch WR remains a big need on this team, and it's likely that in 2021 a premium pick will be required to get one, and whoever we pick, there's a decent enough chance they won't be as dominant as the aforementioned players.
You can like what DG and Judge are building and still reserve some criticism of DG for wasting that opportunity on a ill-conceived and unwise trade.
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In comment 15048421 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15048408 GManinDC said:
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What was needed was more strict coaching and accountability.
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
I imagine that being an NFL coach is hard enough without having to account for babysitting idiots. Beckham was an idiot here, and his best days were behind him anyway. The only mistake was not trading him sooner.
Interesting that the year he was traded he played all 16 game with a injured hernia and had over 1000 yards..
Unlike a guy like Tate, who you was fine with signing. Praised the YAC and good nature. How's that turning out??
Tate as a Giant (12 starts, 19 games) - 73 receptions / 49.8 ypg / 13 ypc / 8 tds / 61% catch% / 7.9 yards per target
OBJ as a Brown (22 starts, 22 games) - 97 receptions / 58.9 ypg / 14 ypc / 8 tds / 55% catch% / 7.7 yards per target
not sure what you're showing me
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In comment 15048421 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15048408 GManinDC said:
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What was needed was more strict coaching and accountability.
Beckham hasn't done nothing worse than many of these guys on this team now. And players who had criminal records were sought.
I imagine that being an NFL coach is hard enough without having to account for babysitting idiots. Beckham was an idiot here, and his best days were behind him anyway. The only mistake was not trading him sooner.
Interesting that the year he was traded he played all 16 game with a injured hernia and had over 1000 yards..
Unlike a guy like Tate, who you was fine with signing. Praised the YAC and good nature. How's that turning out??
Better than it we'd kept Beckham if for no other reason that Tate is cheaper. I'll be fine seeing Tate go too.
Beckham's a punk and a loser. That's been borne out repeatedly here and in Cleveland. Good riddance.
So I guess Tate is some stand up guy who goes in front of the camera and demands the ball??. Real stand up guy. I guess he's a winner?
So I guess you had a problem with Eli throwing the ball to Plax during the 07 game against the Packers?. You have a elite player, you feed them the ball. It ain't rocket science..
We took the hit the year of the trade.
That freed up a ton of space for next 3 years.
Come to think of it we could have drafted both of those guys.
Really, say the guy who 2 weeks ago was ready to get rid of Jones and calling for Brissett or Mullens? DK has a elite QB throwing the ball to him. OBJ had to deal with a bunch of other very good WR's on the team
He's no longer an elite WR, and he's still injured and missing games. Frankly, he may not have been elite by the time we unloaded him.
His peak now is a 1000 yard, 5 TD player. And even that will be a huge stretch to accomplish
How us that his peak? How do you know this. He's no longer an elite WR?. I think so. People have been trying to diminish his skills since he left..
1000 yard and 5 TD's? I would bet most WR's would jump at those numbers
We took the hit the year of the trade.
That freed up a ton of space for next 3 years.
that we used to sign Tate....
DK also has other WRs on his team. Odell cannot even get open anymore. They no longer need to double him.
The worst thing that happened to OBJ was that catch when we lost to Dallas.
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You are missing Salary cap space in your write-up.
We took the hit the year of the trade.
That freed up a ton of space for next 3 years.
that we used to sign Tate....
Some of it. Not all of it.
Yards = 2708 = 677 per year
TDs = 17 = 4.25 per year
Not Good......
Personally, I don't have any harder or easier time rooting for the team; I always root for this team. I didn't like the trade at the time because he was a great talent and it's hard to give up talent.
But, there's little question his career has been one where you balance the talent against the distractions/problems/general queasiness that he brings. Up until the trade/injuries, I think the talent shifted the balance. Now it's tipped the other way.
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In comment 15048425 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 15048423 LBH15 said:
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got taken to woodshed on giving him the contract and eating a good bit of it.
Oh, if that were only the worst of DG and his bad deals.
The Giants would not have gotten that return if Beckham wasn't signed to an extension.
and you know this how?
Common sense? If you are trading for a player that costs less money on your cap and has more years of control, that's a good thing?
there's been recent trades where teams gave up two first rounders for players still on rookie contracts, i.e. they had not yet signed an extension.
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3 years and still don't have a #1 WR. Tate was a bad signing and people justify it by saying we got rid of a headache. Real smart football decision. Leave your rookie QB with a slot receiver making about 10m and 22m guaranteed. But you know what, the team is much easier to root for now!
Personally, I don't have any harder or easier time rooting for the team; I always root for this team. I didn't like the trade at the time because he was a great talent and it's hard to give up talent.
But, there's little question his career has been one where you balance the talent against the distractions/problems/general queasiness that he brings. Up until the trade/injuries, I think the talent shifted the balance. Now it's tipped the other way.
Bill, first of all, hope you and family are well..
I agree with your post and I agree with the talent. the antics, you can corral that. It wasn't like he was showing up teammates, late to meetings or practices, getting arrested (prior to BCS) etc. He played hurt and played hard.
I think jtgiants really got everything in motion here. I wasn't active but I lurked. He spread so manly lies, and after the playoff game, that was it. Even people who rightfully defended him from playing hurt started questioning his desire. I couldn't beleive people actually was believing he sat those 5 games out. I mean, posters who I thought, would say, "OK, this is BS, was co-signing it".
Anyway, no longer on the team, but this notion "we won" the trade is hilarious. What did we win?. 11 wins in 3 seasons?
OBJ was still very shiny, Giants traded him at the PERFECT time. Enjoyed his best years, got max value at his peak. IMO, best Giants trade in a generation.
I'll take Darius Slayton in round FIVE for 200, Alex, over either Brown or Metcalf.
No you wouldn't. Or, at least you shouldn't.
I agree, The only issue I have with the trade is, they didn't replace the production. Pretty much every trade they made those 3 years, they didn't find the replacement. And singing Tate, if you gonna trade that guy, get something.
yeah remember when the idiots here were saying we got fleeced?
I'm glad you're not in charge, because that's dumb. First, they are both better players than Slayton by a wide margin. Second, nothing precludes you from drafting Slayton in round 5 if you also drafted either of the other players. Third, the team would still be built around the defensive line as both of those guys were 2nd rounders picked after our 2019 2nd round pick that Gettleman traded, along with #132 and #142 for DeAndre Baker, who we all know was a bad deal and a waste of resources.
In other words, we could've had either of those guys, plus we'd still have Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Williams on the DL, so what's the point of saying, "this team is built around the defensive line"? It would still be that way and we'd have superior talent at WR to go with it. The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources, or 'haven't you noticed'?
A mismatch WR remains a big need on this team, and it's likely that in 2021 a premium pick will be required to get one, and whoever we pick, there's a decent enough chance they won't be as dominant as the aforementioned players.
You can like what DG and Judge are building and still reserve some criticism of DG for wasting that opportunity on a ill-conceived and unwise trade.
ASJ thanks for responding to my criticism of GT but you've missed both my main points.
First you continue in Terps' vein of of playing "you could have drafted so and so."
It's a BS game with extremely stacked odds, when looking at individual players. The only real argument to make about "could have drafted" in the draft is about positional value, not about players. So Getty can take one fairly on the chin for Barkley, but not for Jones, and really not for Baker IMO.
My main point was anyone can criticise any GM and say "you could have picked so and so". It's meaningless. (The only exceptions to the rule are guys like Lawrence Taylor as a top of the draft guy [and even re Taylor you could claim Pat Swilling was a better draft VALUE in round 2] or Jerry Rice - they are rare historical artifacts.
So please chuck that could have drafted X argument. Another crucial point you make may very well be flat out wrong:
The goal is to build a TEAM, where all the pieces fit together, NOT TO accumulate great players.
So, so far as top WR talent goes, I wonder how much JJ and DG value those guys. Passed up plenty of opportunities last year in the WR market, didn't they?
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the trade, if what OBJ did while he is here is clouding what he's not doing in Cleveland - that's a poor way of looking at it.
He's no longer an elite WR, and he's still injured and missing games. Frankly, he may not have been elite by the time we unloaded him.
His peak now is a 1000 yard, 5 TD player. And even that will be a huge stretch to accomplish
How us that his peak? How do you know this. He's no longer an elite WR?. I think so. People have been trying to diminish his skills since he left..
1000 yard and 5 TD's? I would bet most WR's would jump at those numbers
what makes you think he's an elite WR?? He's going on his 4th significant leg injury and the past two seasons he's averaged less than 70 yards per game. That's elite?? And he's going to come back from injury just as good as before? He's not even getting into the end zone. He has 6 TD's his last season here and he had 4 playing every game last season.
Maybe most WR's would jump at 1000 yards and 5 TD's - but are elite WR's jumping at that?? He's now a high contract JAG.
His elite days are few and far between now.
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In comment 15048476 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the trade, if what OBJ did while he is here is clouding what he's not doing in Cleveland - that's a poor way of looking at it.
He's no longer an elite WR, and he's still injured and missing games. Frankly, he may not have been elite by the time we unloaded him.
His peak now is a 1000 yard, 5 TD player. And even that will be a huge stretch to accomplish
How us that his peak? How do you know this. He's no longer an elite WR?. I think so. People have been trying to diminish his skills since he left..
1000 yard and 5 TD's? I would bet most WR's would jump at those numbers
what makes you think he's an elite WR?? He's going on his 4th significant leg injury and the past two seasons he's averaged less than 70 yards per game. That's elite?? And he's going to come back from injury just as good as before? He's not even getting into the end zone. He has 6 TD's his last season here and he had 4 playing every game last season.
Maybe most WR's would jump at 1000 yards and 5 TD's - but are elite WR's jumping at that?? He's now a high contract JAG.
His last injury was for a sports hernia in which he played all season. Considering he's playing with another 1000 yard receiver in Landy and an 1000 yard rusher in Chubbs, how much of the ball is he going to see? Unlike when he was here, when they had no one..
And you really are calling him a JAG?? If we are going to go by just stats his last 2 years, then hell, every player that was bought in the last 3 years are JAGs.
Well, I guess we should just get rid of Barkley then too. He's been injured the last 2 years..
Who the hell cares at this point if we signed him beforehand. He's gone.
What are you talking about?
His last injury was for a sports hernia in which he played all season. Considering he's playing with another 1000 yard receiver in Landy and an 1000 yard rusher in Chubbs, how much of the ball is he going to see? Unlike when he was here, when they had no one..
And you really are calling him a JAG?? If we are going to go by just stats his last 2 years, then hell, every player that was bought in the last 3 years are JAGs.
Well, I guess we should just get rid of Barkley then too. He's been injured the last 2 years..
Since you brought it up, I wouldn't recommend paying Barkley elite RB money when that time comes.
Now, onto Beckham - there was a time when he was being compared around here to Jerry Rice. Now the excuse for his pedestrian receiving numbers is Jarvis Landry and Nick Chubb?
He's a WR with 4 significant injuries in his career. If this was a non-Giant and you were asked if you'd want to make him one of the highest paid players on the team, you'd say no without hesitation.
I loved watching Beckham play. He's not that player anymore. He's not in the same group as Hopkins, Thomas and other #1's. He's an average player who will be coming off a significant injury.
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All game. 55 percent connect rate. Gross. Unlike here with some of the people that are absolutely butt hurt we traded their favorite player browns fans conceded we hands down won the trade unless he reternued to peek form in 2020. He clearly hasn’t. Can’t believe there are people here that still defend the trade. I get why people have an emotional attachment to him, he was a bright spot in some bad times, but let’s not forget he actively lost us his only playoff game anc his antics were a constant distraction.
So I guess you had a problem with Eli throwing the ball to Plax during the 07 game against the Packers?. You have a elite player, you feed them the ball. It ain't rocket science..
There’s 50 guys in the league that would put up those numbers with targets like that. Kitchens was way over the head and was forcing the ball to Odell so he wouldn’t throw a tantrum. Eli was throwing the ball to Plax in that game because the Packers decided to put their best corner on an island against Plax. Not sure what the similarities are here. The advantage of having elite players is they open up other things or they play it straight and your guy makes them pay. This isn’t Madden.
So add in one of our free agent signings as well. Short story, we killed them on this trade. And it's not even close
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That culture shift cost the Giants 3 years and counting..
What are you talking about?
You said it was a part of the culture shift. I responded. It cost 3 years to rebuild from the culture shift..
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In comment 15048472 Zeke's Alibi said:
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All game. 55 percent connect rate. Gross. Unlike here with some of the people that are absolutely butt hurt we traded their favorite player browns fans conceded we hands down won the trade unless he reternued to peek form in 2020. He clearly hasn’t. Can’t believe there are people here that still defend the trade. I get why people have an emotional attachment to him, he was a bright spot in some bad times, but let’s not forget he actively lost us his only playoff game anc his antics were a constant distraction.
So I guess you had a problem with Eli throwing the ball to Plax during the 07 game against the Packers?. You have a elite player, you feed them the ball. It ain't rocket science..
There’s 50 guys in the league that would put up those numbers with targets like that. Kitchens was way over the head and was forcing the ball to Odell so he wouldn’t throw a tantrum. Eli was throwing the ball to Plax in that game because the Packers decided to put their best corner on an island against Plax. Not sure what the similarities are here. The advantage of having elite players is they open up other things or they play it straight and your guy makes them pay. This isn’t Madden.
Before I even respond, you have something to back up this claim about Kitchens having them force the ball to Beckham??
Is it that the Giants didn't get the better end of the deal or that the Giants would be better off if they still had Beckham??
Because it certainly seems that the Giants got the better end of the deal and if they didn't trade him, would be saddled with another high contract guy who can't stay on the field.
Is he the same player as he was in his first 3 years? Probably not. But the bar was set those 3 years. Those were HoF number he was putting up. So if he's now a notch under Hopkins and Adams, that makes him a finished player??
Therein lies the problem. Whenever a player does not perform to his peak, every year, fans are ready to let them go. It was said about JPP. He had a few rough years but was getting back in the groove. Now look at him. It's no rebound.
This constant ridding the team of talent to go chase a new shiny toy.
I figured. No evidence,. And you just answered your own question. Kitchens was way over his head and there was MANY mouths to feed.
He's probably a notch below Thielen, Kupp, Cooper and Allen.
And, we have no idea where he'll be after coming back from a serious injury
Giants paid him just like he wanted and one month later he said he didn't want to be here. I mean, maybe the kid didn't want to be here? What's the point of keeping someone if AFTER you pay them, they tell you that?
Is he the same player as he was in his first 3 years? Probably not. But the bar was set those 3 years. Those were HoF number he was putting up. So if he's now a notch under Hopkins and Adams, that makes him a finished player??
Therein lies the problem. Whenever a player does not perform to his peak, every year, fans are ready to let them go. It was said about JPP. He had a few rough years but was getting back in the groove. Now look at him. It's no rebound.
This constant ridding the team of talent to go chase a new shiny toy.
OBJ trade had nothing to do with chasing some shiny new toy. It was to rid the team of a talented but problem child for the organization, and get value for him while they could.
Tate as a Giant (12 starts, 19 games) - 73 receptions / 49.8 ypg / 13 ypc / 8 tds / 61% catch% / 7.9 yards per target
OBJ as a Brown (22 starts, 22 games) - 97 receptions / 58.9 ypg / 14 ypc / 8 tds / 55% catch% / 7.7 yards per target
not sure what you're showing me
Trading OBJ's elite talent (for 2 younger starters on D) was a mistake and signing a mediocre player like Golden Tate was a mistake...
But they have basically been the exact same player for their respective teams.
Even if they are both equivalent malcontents, don't you see an inconsistency in that argument just based on the actual production?
Let me put this another way - if the Giants traded the last 2 years of Golden Tate tomorrow for a first, a third, and Peppers, would you consider that a good trade?
He's probably a notch below Thielen, Kupp, Cooper and Allen.
And, we have no idea where he'll be after coming back from a serious injury
I think he is/was prior to this latest injury.
Giants paid him just like he wanted and one month later he said he didn't want to be here. I mean, maybe the kid didn't want to be here? What's the point of keeping someone if AFTER you pay them, they tell you that?
Jim, not sure I ever saw that or read that anywhere but here. I don't follow or care about guys outside the lines.
With injuries, they are a big concern I agree with that..
And I think all of the #1's on those teams are doing better than Beckham.
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and I'd say they traded him right before all those injuries which was prudent, GManinDC, do you remember that he didn't want to be here?
Giants paid him just like he wanted and one month later he said he didn't want to be here. I mean, maybe the kid didn't want to be here? What's the point of keeping someone if AFTER you pay them, they tell you that?
Jim, not sure I ever saw that or read that anywhere but here. I don't follow or care about guys outside the lines.
With injuries, they are a big concern I agree with that..
So why did they trade him? He was a superstar heading to the HOF (I agree pre injury). Then they paid him as the top WR. Why was the trade made?
26th in yards
32nd in ypg
29th in ypc
28th in first downs
67th in touchdowns
174th in catch%
And this year he was averaging 20 fewer YPG when he got hurt.
There is simply not a single stat that supports OBJ performing like an elite player in the last 2 years.
And I think all of the #1's on those teams are doing better than Beckham.
They are. But are those teams #2 as good as Landy, who I think is a #1
Jones and Ridley had 100 more yards and 3 more TD's
Woods and Kupp had 200 more yards and 2 more TD's
It isn't even like Beckham and Landry are considered the top duo in the NFL. May not even be a top 5 duo
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Bucs, Chargers, Cowboys, Falcons, Seahawks and Rams can all be considered to have a very good #1/#2 combo.
And I think all of the #1's on those teams are doing better than Beckham.
They are. But are those teams #2 as good as Landy, who I think is a #1
If Landry is a #1, the Beckham is a #2. And the numbers bear that out. Which should be, by definition, not the standing of an elite player
But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??
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I'm not even really defending OBJ. But this talk of winning a trade and that he's a JAG are way off. The Giants haven't won anything. They got returns. We'll continue to see how it plays. I do like Lawrence.
Is he the same player as he was in his first 3 years? Probably not. But the bar was set those 3 years. Those were HoF number he was putting up. So if he's now a notch under Hopkins and Adams, that makes him a finished player??
Therein lies the problem. Whenever a player does not perform to his peak, every year, fans are ready to let them go. It was said about JPP. He had a few rough years but was getting back in the groove. Now look at him. It's no rebound.
This constant ridding the team of talent to go chase a new shiny toy.
OBJ trade had nothing to do with chasing some shiny new toy. It was to rid the team of a talented but problem child for the organization, and get value for him while they could.
I know it was a culture war. The shiny new toy is a reference to ridding our home grown players and paying FA's..
But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??
That's the key mistake we made. although without him signed, the trade either happens earlier or for far less
But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??
I have 2 thoughts on that.
1. They wanted it to work, Shurmur wanted to try the blank slate, cross your fingers and hope 2016 OBJ comes back, calms down with the security of a big contract, and wins a few games practically by himself. That would have been everyone's ideal.
2. They knew the trade market in 2018 when he was still rehabbing from surgery without a contract and signed him to a deal that they knew would increase his trade value if they needed to break the glass in case of emergency.
Put another way, I don't think they signed him to trade him but I also don't think it was a coincidence that his contract was structured to be easily tradeable less than 12 months later without a calamitous cap hit. That is too rare for a megadeal.
Jones and Ridley had 100 more yards and 3 more TD's
Woods and Kupp had 200 more yards and 2 more TD's
It isn't even like Beckham and Landry are considered the top duo in the NFL. May not even be a top 5 duo
You see how many targets those guys got? Double what Landy has now..
But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??
Because they thought he'd be happy getting paid. Once that didn't work they cut their losses. We just saw something similar with Yannick - give up a good pick for an ascending player, couldn't make the money work and they recouped what they could and moved on. Not comparing the players at all, just that sometimes you have to go for it, but it won't always work.
Even before this injury Cleveland was going to struggle getting that compensation back (or close to it) for Beckham if they traded him away. I'm pretty sure they wanted to get rid of him and now won't have that opportunity until next year, and at a lower price point.
He's also not a top 5, maybe top 10 WR. He's just not. First 3 years of his career? Absolutely. But unfortunately his personal shit and injuries have derailed his once HOF promising career.
Adams, Diggs, Hopkins, Lockett, Metcalf, Allen, Thielen, Ridley, McLaurin, Evans, Moore, Lamb, Kupp, Jefferson, Jeudy, Robinson
The list probably stops there. It was a no brainer trade.
I am over it from a Giants trade POV. I do think it's sad BEckham never got to play in a sustained stretch of good NYG football as he would have been highly appreciated here if so. Shit happens.
But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??
Other teams have lost WRs equal to BEckham for less or even nothing. See the Eagles and OWens. See Pitt and Antonio Brown. The Giants were creeping closer and closer to that group.
Could they have traded Beckahm after 2018 and get back the same or more value? Sure, maybe, but he was HURT at that point in time. Very hurt. He wasn't hurt in 2019.
Giants were risking something even if they:
--held out and didn't offer the contract
--traded him after 2018 because Beckham was hurt
--signed him and then traded him once he started bitching
The time to trade him was 2016 but who trades a still cheap, demi god WR who is on his way to Canton? It never happens.
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I think ya'll proved you point I am changing my position. I think looking at it now, with his injuries, it was a good trade..
But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??
I have 2 thoughts on that.
1. They wanted it to work, Shurmur wanted to try the blank slate, cross your fingers and hope 2016 OBJ comes back, calms down with the security of a big contract, and wins a few games practically by himself. That would have been everyone's ideal.
2. They knew the trade market in 2018 when he was still rehabbing from surgery without a contract and signed him to a deal that they knew would increase his trade value if they needed to break the glass in case of emergency.
Put another way, I don't think they signed him to trade him but I also don't think it was a coincidence that his contract was structured to be easily tradeable less than 12 months later without a calamitous cap hit. That is too rare for a megadeal.
Yeah, I agree with #1. Not so much #2.
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offense. Lots of mouths to feed over there and I’m certain he was worried about Odell blowing up. The results were garbage. Now they are a run first football team that is good. If Odell was still elite you’d see a helluva lot more big plays, but you don’t because he’s not the same player.
I figured. No evidence,. And you just answered your own question. Kitchens was way over his head and there was MANY mouths to feed.
I mean there was plenty of evidence here. Throwing tantrums and quitting on plays when he didn’t get the ball. Of course there was no evidence of it there, they literally forced him the ball to the tune of a 55 percent catch rate. Will be interesting to see what will happen if they start losing this year.
What difference does it make now? He’s a marginal number 1 now that his elite explosiveness is gone and often injured. A guy with a history of concentration drops. We won the trade in a landslide and the only people on the other side of that are Giants fans ironically
I wonder if "the catch" was the worst thing to ever happen to OBJ. His recognition exploded. He was the Giants. So it's quite easy to see how he saw ME in TEAM.
It was the right move to trade OBJ. But I also think there is room to criticize Jints Central for being unable to manage his personality. Gettleman said "you don't quit on talent". Fine. So figure out how to manage that talent/personality to keep him on the rail...
That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.
Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.
I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham
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Evans and Godwin had 7 more TD's and 400 more yards
Jones and Ridley had 100 more yards and 3 more TD's
Woods and Kupp had 200 more yards and 2 more TD's
It isn't even like Beckham and Landry are considered the top duo in the NFL. May not even be a top 5 duo
You see how many targets those guys got? Double what Landy has now..
Is that you Odell?
That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.
Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.
I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham
Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.
I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..
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is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.
That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.
Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.
I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham
Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.
I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..
Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games)
101 receptions (59.8% catch rate)
85 yards per game (1367 for year)
13.5 ypc
10 tds
First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games)
77 receptions (62.1% catch rate)
87 yards per game (1052 for year)
13.7 ypc
6 tds
Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.
That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.
Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.
I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham
Why is it always receivers? (Maybe a smattering of CB's).
QB's have the ball the most but get blamed too much for anything bad that happens.
99% of RB/TE jobs aren't glamorous. OL and IDL/ILB forget about it. Nobody sees what they do.
Flashy edge rushers and shutdown CBs come closest, but receivers who can "moss" people get the attention because the game is the most obviously 1 on 1 for them.
The game has trended towards receivers producing more highlight worthy plays than anyone else, so they get the most praise, and have naturally produced the most players who crave that individual attention.
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In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.
That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.
Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.
I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham
Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.
I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..
Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games)
101 receptions (59.8% catch rate)
85 yards per game (1367 for year)
13.5 ypc
10 tds
First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games)
77 receptions (62.1% catch rate)
87 yards per game (1052 for year)
13.7 ypc
6 tds
Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.
Thanks for the stats. He didn't regress in 2019. He had almost the same stats had in 2018. He was injured all season..
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DK has a elite QB throwing the ball to him. OBJ had to deal with a bunch of other very good WR's on the team
DK also has other WRs on his team. Odell cannot even get open anymore. They no longer need to double him.
The worst thing that happened to OBJ was that catch when we lost to Dallas.
OK, come on. DK is an elite receiver and he'd be an elite receiver with or without Russell Wilson at QB or Tyler Lockett on the other side. If you've watched the Seahawks, he has become the #1 priority for opposing defenses to stop. He draws their best corner and often times help on top of that, and he still wins in those matchups often.
Quote:
In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.
That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.
Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.
I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham
Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.
I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..
Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games)
101 receptions (59.8% catch rate)
85 yards per game (1367 for year)
13.5 ypc
10 tds
First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games)
77 receptions (62.1% catch rate)
87 yards per game (1052 for year)
13.7 ypc
6 tds
Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.
It's more accurate to say that the quarterback throwing Beckham the ball regressed in 2019. Again, it's not productive to compare Beckham's stats year to year as if everything around him is static. I know people like him quite a bit, but Baker Mayfield has yet to prove that he's any better than an average passer in the NFL - and that has to be factored in when evaluating Beckham's numbers in Cleveland.
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I'm glad you're not in charge, because that's dumb. First, they are both better players than Slayton by a wide margin. Second, nothing precludes you from drafting Slayton in round 5 if you also drafted either of the other players. Third, the team would still be built around the defensive line as both of those guys were 2nd rounders picked after our 2019 2nd round pick that Gettleman traded, along with #132 and #142 for DeAndre Baker, who we all know was a bad deal and a waste of resources.
In other words, we could've had either of those guys, plus we'd still have Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Williams on the DL, so what's the point of saying, "this team is built around the defensive line"? It would still be that way and we'd have superior talent at WR to go with it. The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources, or 'haven't you noticed'?
A mismatch WR remains a big need on this team, and it's likely that in 2021 a premium pick will be required to get one, and whoever we pick, there's a decent enough chance they won't be as dominant as the aforementioned players.
You can like what DG and Judge are building and still reserve some criticism of DG for wasting that opportunity on a ill-conceived and unwise trade.
ASJ thanks for responding to my criticism of GT but you've missed both my main points.
First you continue in Terps' vein of of playing "you could have drafted so and so."
It's a BS game with extremely stacked odds, when looking at individual players. The only real argument to make about "could have drafted" in the draft is about positional value, not about players. So Getty can take one fairly on the chin for Barkley, but not for Jones, and really not for Baker IMO.
My main point was anyone can criticise any GM and say "you could have picked so and so". It's meaningless. (The only exceptions to the rule are guys like Lawrence Taylor as a top of the draft guy [and even re Taylor you could claim Pat Swilling was a better draft VALUE in round 2] or Jerry Rice - they are rare historical artifacts.
So please chuck that could have drafted X argument. Another crucial point you make may very well be flat out wrong:
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The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources.
The goal is to build a TEAM, where all the pieces fit together, NOT TO accumulate great players.
So, so far as top WR talent goes, I wonder how much JJ and DG value those guys. Passed up plenty of opportunities last year in the WR market, didn't they?
Yeah they passed on opportunities in the receiver market because when you don't have an offensive line or really much in the back 7 of that defense with the exception of their free agent signings and Peppers. The general philosophy of Gettleman appears to be to be tough in the trenches and defense first. It's a philosophy I generally agree with. So there's good reason to have focused on OL and defense in that draft, and eschew WR.
That said, they burned 3 picks to draft Baker, when similarly graded corners were on the board. I understand they had Baker as their top corner in the class. However, they seemed to be unaware of the whispers that he was a behavioral / character flag...which was reported and known in the scouting community, and they yet burned three picks on him.
When you miss that badly, you deserve the criticism. Trades are risky, but you have to weigh the upshot of what is available at your 2nd round pick at #37 (only 7 picks later), and what the value is of #132, and decide if the player you want is worth that investment. They decided a CB with mediocre speed and a character flag was worth that investment, while Tampa might have gotten the best corner in the draft at #39 overall.
And while you can easily say all these other teams passed on Brown and Metcalf, at least in Brown's case he was a well-known prospect who was very well thought of in draft circles as a complete receiver who was NFL-ready. And in terms of building a culture, both of them were clean prospects who have done nothing but work extremely hard and dominate on Sundays.
You can say what you want about building a team over great players, but let's face it, they fucked up. You're not passing on great players that you also think will fit into the team culture, and both of those guys would. The only question on DK was if he could run the entire route tree. Turns out he can.
Not only did they pass on better players/prospects, they traded up and wasted additional resources on a player with a known character flag...so either they didn't know about the character issues, or they felt the upshot was worth it to get what they felt would be an island type of cover corner, blowing away the "team" argument. In either case, it's terrible from a scouting and draft resource management standpoint, whether or not they would have used pick #37 on Brown or Metcalf. And Gettleman deserves the criticism for that.
Your argument that "the goal is to build a team" is just fine, but Baker is no longer on this team and he really didn't add anything to the teambuilding atmosphere when he was here, either.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
That's fine and all, and I'm not really keeping track of who is saying what. What I am saying is that you have people trying to lessen what a player is by pointing out that said player has Russell Wilson throwing him the ball or that Tyler Lockett is playing on the other side. It's nonsense. He's a great player, period, you don't need to mention any of that other stuff because it doesn't matter. Those factors aren't what makes him great, he'd be great with them or without them.
The same thing happens here when discussing QB play over the years, both with Eli and Jones. When Eli was struggling year after year, all you heard about was how the OL wasn't good, or that Beckham was hurt, or they didn't have a good run game to help him. No, Eli was no longer a winning QB, period. It's an attempt to obfuscate the truth, which was very simple, and independent of those other factors. It was time to move on because he was no longer good enough.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
If you don’t think that type of shit circulates and causes problems in a locker room like an old lady sewing circle your being naive. Pat McAfee says it on his show all the time, the way the locker room is is imperative as far as team failures/successes go that is often overlooked by fans.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
Thank you
/end thread
Exactly. The Giants historically stick with their home grown stars unless shit goes south.
And this one of my biggest concerns with DG. He's VERY quick to the draw on older vets and it can bite him. For every Beckham or Vernon trade there's a JPP move in there too and even going back to Greg Olsen and Steve Smith in Carolina. Both had life when DG wanted to dump them both, especially Smith when he went to Balt.
If you love seeing good players stick here in NY for a long time, DG aint your guy. Sometimes this is a good thing but not always.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
We got 2 talented defensive starters for Beckham. That's a pretty solid return for a guy who had worn out his welcome here.
We got 2 talented defensive starters for Beckham. That's a pretty solid return for a guy who had worn out his welcome here.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
All due respect, but you couldn't be more wrong. Anyone who has spent time in a football locker room at any level knows that selfish players causing distractions can 100% have a negative effect on team chemistry, and that can very easily hurt performance on the field.
I know a lot of you see football through the lense of fantasy stats, but team chemistry and culture matters.
I do 100% agree that fans make up narratives on what's a bad distraction but I think it was legit with Beckham.
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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.
What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?
all it takes is one person to say it and it becomes fact..
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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
Thank you
/end thread
Sounds to me like you've never played sports. That isn't how "distractions" work. Games are played on sundays but the hard work is done all week long and that's where camaraderie, work ethic, planning, training, etc all comes into play. If none of that matters then you wouldn't ever see good players traded away or flat out cut.
Go ask Judge about distractions and what he thinks of them. He's address why he doesn't talk negatively about players to the media - he said he doesn't want them to become season long distractions.
Now, after the fact when new information has come to light!
A scout was fired due to the miss out on Baker, and ultimately DG has to accept the responsibility for the failed pick, no argument there.
But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.
One UGA media guy glowingly called Baker best CB in the entire history of UGA football!
After he came to training camp as a Giant, reports of him sleeping during team meetings, and sleeping in the players' lounge area, rather than studying his playbook like most all the other rookies would, came to light.
If you have a documented source of published info re the behavioral red flags around Baker prior to the draft (not the combine speed issue), I'd love to see them.
Enjoy the debate, thanks.
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In comment 15049116 djm said:
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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.
What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?
But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.
I believe Sy pointed out some red flags. But I need to dig it up.
In his 2 years in CLE he has averaged 58 yards per game and paced to about 6 touchdowns per year.
That's an astronomical production difference that simply can't be explained by anything other than the performance of the guy wearing the #13 jersey.
I'm so old I can remember when Eli Manning was holding OBJ back and Baker Mayfield's deep ball was going to unleash his true potential. Now he can't even match the productivity of Jarvis Landry in the exact same situational circumstances, which is striking because prior to the last 2 years Landry wasn't on the same planet as OBJ in terms of productivity.
I don't think anyone could have honestly predicted this fall off and I am not making any sort of point about the trade other than the timing of his demise being incredibly unfortunate for the Browns. The 4th + 7th round picks they sent to Miami for Jarvis Landry were obviously far better ROI.
Odell Beckham 2019-2020: 58.8 yds/gm, 4.2 rec/gm, 7 TDs
It's a 6 yard and half a reception difference between them per game - their numbers couldn't be much more identical than that.
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In comment 15049138 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 15049116 djm said:
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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.
BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.
I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?
Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.
You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.
What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?
The bruised quad that cost him 4 games. A bruised quad. It's the NFL. They all have bruised something, every day.
So what are you implying??. he faked the injury??
Now, after the fact when new information has come to light!
A scout was fired due to the miss out on Baker, and ultimately DG has to accept the responsibility for the failed pick, no argument there.
But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.
One UGA media guy glowingly called Baker best CB in the entire history of UGA football!
After he came to training camp as a Giant, reports of him sleeping during team meetings, and sleeping in the players' lounge area, rather than studying his playbook like most all the other rookies would, came to light.
If you have a documented source of published info re the behavioral red flags around Baker prior to the draft (not the combine speed issue), I'd love to see them.
Enjoy the debate, thanks.
You know the scout that got fired is the same scout DG promoted?. He basically promoted the guy and then fired him the next year..
On top of that, he had a season with 112 receptions AND DIDN'T BREAK 1,000 YARDS!
Landry is a decent WR, but, he's likely not a top 20 guy in the NFL. Probably just a tier above Slayton.
Odell Beckham 2019-2020: 58.8 yds/gm, 4.2 rec/gm, 7 TDs
It's a 6 yard and half a reception difference between them per game - their numbers couldn't be much more identical than that.
Reread what I said (bolded).
In comment 15049236 Eric on Li said:
OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR. His NYG career average of 93 yards per game would be 2nd best all time behind Julio Jones and the 2 of them would be the only players above 90 yards per game. Ahead of Calvin Johnson, Deandre Hopkins, Antonio Brown, and Michael Thomas (as well as all time greats like Harrison, TO, Moss, etc - though obviously it's a slightly different era).
Jarvis Landry is a good player but on another planet compared to what Beckham was prior to the last 2 years - which is why their cost of acquisition was so different in the first place.
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But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.
I believe Sy pointed out some red flags. But I need to dig it up.
They were definitely there because I remember being pissed about taking Baker over Murphy when all we talked about is culture and turn around anc draft some guy with work ethic issues
I think people are very understating how bad Mayfield is. Which is not an excuse but he is terrible. And what BBI and the media said about him before does not mean jack shit right now.
All you been saying is a bunch of group talk not has no basis of fact.\
If you have personal experience that OBJ didn't put the work in to play in these games, even when he was show working out prior to the game and was game time decisions, please provide..
I don't deal with conspiracy theorist..
All you been saying is a bunch of group talk not has no basis of fact.\
If you have personal experience that OBJ didn't put the work in to play in these games, even when he was show working out prior to the game and was game time decisions, please provide..
I don't deal with conspiracy theorist..
Well that’s even worse. That means he just didn’t want to play. It’s a fucking muscle contusion. There isn’t any risk of further injury. Are you his cousin or something you are going to awfully long lengths to defend a guy that has worn out his welcome in two places.
How is that even a debate?
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Jarvis Landry 2019-2020: 64.8 yds/gm, 4.8 rec/gm, 6 TDs
Odell Beckham 2019-2020: 58.8 yds/gm, 4.2 rec/gm, 7 TDs
It's a 6 yard and half a reception difference between them per game - their numbers couldn't be much more identical than that.
Reread what I said (bolded).
In comment 15049236 Eric on Li said:
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Now he can't even match the productivity of Jarvis Landry in the exact same situational circumstances, which is striking because prior to the last 2 years Landry wasn't on the same planet as OBJ in terms of productivity.
OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR. His NYG career average of 93 yards per game would be 2nd best all time behind Julio Jones and the 2 of them would be the only players above 90 yards per game. Ahead of Calvin Johnson, Deandre Hopkins, Antonio Brown, and Michael Thomas (as well as all time greats like Harrison, TO, Moss, etc - though obviously it's a slightly different era).
Jarvis Landry is a good player but on another planet compared to what Beckham was prior to the last 2 years - which is why their cost of acquisition was so different in the first place.
But that's not an accurate assessment of Jarvis Landry - when Cleveland acquired him they actually did believe he was on the same planet as Beckham. It's the reason why they gave him a contract that made him the 5th highest paid receiver in the league at the time.
And they weren't entirely wrong - Landry didn't have Beckham's stats while he was in Miami, but he was regarded as one of the better receivers in the league and was expected to continue growing in a new offense and with another QB throwing to him.
. . . that didn't happen, and that's the main point. Landry's production has actually fallen off some since arriving in Cleveland. There isn't ANY receiver that is excelling over there despite the level of talent that they have had on their offense. If you're trying to understand why Beckham's numbers have been so mediocre since leaving NY, you have to look at other variables.
OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR.
He was in his first two seasons.. not right before he joined Cleveland.
The answer is because he was about to get a contract far richer than his actual impact. Comparing Jarvis Landry to OBJ simply because they both got paid is like comparing Olivier Vernon to Khalil Mack.
Also not sure what you are talking about in terms of Landry's performance being meaningfully different pre and post trade.
Jarvis Landry 4 years in MIA - 4k yards (63 yards per game)
Jarvis Landry 2.5 years in CLE - 2.5k (63 yards per game)
makes his career averages pretty easy to guess doesn't it? He is and always has been a solid 1k yard receiver. OBJ on the other hand was a potential HOF'er as a giant.
That's why even Landy's career best season (73 yards per game) is not that close to OBJ's averages with the Giants (93 yards per game). And if you say yards are overrated, ok, how about touchdowns?
In just his first 4.5 years with the Giants OBJ had 44 TDs.
In year 7 Landry is currently sitting on 32 TDs.
The only viable comparison between the 2 players is the diminished version of OBJ that's played for the Browns the past 2 years. Which is sort of the entire point. The Browns paid a HOF price via trade for what has been a lesser version of Jarvis Landry.
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OBJ prior to joining Cleveland was an elite WR.
He was in his first two seasons.. not right before he joined Cleveland.
He wasn't as good as his first 2 years but this is debateable. In 2016 and 2018 (his last 2 full seasons as a NYG) he averaged about 86 yards per game and was pacing towards 10 tds both years. 86 yards per game would still have him in the top 5 all time of ypg for a WR.
Completely agree he probably was no longer the guy averaging over 100 yards per game and 15+ touchdowns. That guy would have been the best WR of all time. But he was still a top 5-10 player at his position. The fall off outside the top 25 was not predictable.
I’m citing his time in Miami, this isn’t revisionist history. He has never been an elite WR, really not close to it. No YAC, limited scoring ability, lots of chain moving catches. Very good #2 WR, but that’s it.
Our own Steve smith had a better year in 2009 than any of Landry’s and Smith wasn’t a #1 either.
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because for whatever reason it's hard for people to accept that Baker Mayfield isn't very good.
I’m citing his time in Miami, this isn’t revisionist history. He has never been an elite WR, really not close to it. No YAC, limited scoring ability, lots of chain moving catches. Very good #2 WR, but that’s it.
Our own Steve smith had a better year in 2009 than any of Landry’s and Smith wasn’t a #1 either.