Giants Trade
Odell Beckham Jr.
Browns Trade
Jabrill Peppers
#17 Pick (Dexter Lawrence)
#95 Pick (Oshane Ximines)
I heard Cowherd reference the trade today on his show, so I figured it’d be a good time to revisit the trade. At the time, the universal opinion was the Giants lost the trade. However, it is no longer clear cut.
I feel bad for Beckham; it hasn’t worked out for him in Cleveland. I hated to see him get hurt again this year. The trade has not worked out as intended for Cleveland, there is no way around that.
As for the return, Peppers has shown more this year under this coaching staff. He’s had some nice returns in special teams. I’m hopeful he can play well alongside McKinney down the line.
Lawrence has arguably been Gettleman’s best pick, he is a keg on what hopefully becomes a strong defensive line. We’ll see if Oshane Ximines ever amounts to anything.
Lastly, a big portion of this trade will come down to Jones. I wonder if this trade was made with the idea that Jones was the pick at #6. Getting the extra first rounder may have made the decision to draft Jones easier for Gettleman and company.
One thing is certain, the trade paved the way for a much different direction for this franchise.
We took the hit the year of the trade.
That freed up a ton of space for next 3 years.
that we used to sign Tate....
DK also has other WRs on his team. Odell cannot even get open anymore. They no longer need to double him.
The worst thing that happened to OBJ was that catch when we lost to Dallas.
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You are missing Salary cap space in your write-up.
We took the hit the year of the trade.
That freed up a ton of space for next 3 years.
that we used to sign Tate....
Some of it. Not all of it.
Yards = 2708 = 677 per year
TDs = 17 = 4.25 per year
Not Good......
Personally, I don't have any harder or easier time rooting for the team; I always root for this team. I didn't like the trade at the time because he was a great talent and it's hard to give up talent.
But, there's little question his career has been one where you balance the talent against the distractions/problems/general queasiness that he brings. Up until the trade/injuries, I think the talent shifted the balance. Now it's tipped the other way.
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In comment 15048425 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 15048423 LBH15 said:
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got taken to woodshed on giving him the contract and eating a good bit of it.
Oh, if that were only the worst of DG and his bad deals.
The Giants would not have gotten that return if Beckham wasn't signed to an extension.
and you know this how?
Common sense? If you are trading for a player that costs less money on your cap and has more years of control, that's a good thing?
there's been recent trades where teams gave up two first rounders for players still on rookie contracts, i.e. they had not yet signed an extension.
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3 years and still don't have a #1 WR. Tate was a bad signing and people justify it by saying we got rid of a headache. Real smart football decision. Leave your rookie QB with a slot receiver making about 10m and 22m guaranteed. But you know what, the team is much easier to root for now!
Personally, I don't have any harder or easier time rooting for the team; I always root for this team. I didn't like the trade at the time because he was a great talent and it's hard to give up talent.
But, there's little question his career has been one where you balance the talent against the distractions/problems/general queasiness that he brings. Up until the trade/injuries, I think the talent shifted the balance. Now it's tipped the other way.
Bill, first of all, hope you and family are well..
I agree with your post and I agree with the talent. the antics, you can corral that. It wasn't like he was showing up teammates, late to meetings or practices, getting arrested (prior to BCS) etc. He played hurt and played hard.
I think jtgiants really got everything in motion here. I wasn't active but I lurked. He spread so manly lies, and after the playoff game, that was it. Even people who rightfully defended him from playing hurt started questioning his desire. I couldn't beleive people actually was believing he sat those 5 games out. I mean, posters who I thought, would say, "OK, this is BS, was co-signing it".
Anyway, no longer on the team, but this notion "we won" the trade is hilarious. What did we win?. 11 wins in 3 seasons?
OBJ was still very shiny, Giants traded him at the PERFECT time. Enjoyed his best years, got max value at his peak. IMO, best Giants trade in a generation.
I'll take Darius Slayton in round FIVE for 200, Alex, over either Brown or Metcalf.
No you wouldn't. Or, at least you shouldn't.
I agree, The only issue I have with the trade is, they didn't replace the production. Pretty much every trade they made those 3 years, they didn't find the replacement. And singing Tate, if you gonna trade that guy, get something.
yeah remember when the idiots here were saying we got fleeced?
I'm glad you're not in charge, because that's dumb. First, they are both better players than Slayton by a wide margin. Second, nothing precludes you from drafting Slayton in round 5 if you also drafted either of the other players. Third, the team would still be built around the defensive line as both of those guys were 2nd rounders picked after our 2019 2nd round pick that Gettleman traded, along with #132 and #142 for DeAndre Baker, who we all know was a bad deal and a waste of resources.
In other words, we could've had either of those guys, plus we'd still have Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Williams on the DL, so what's the point of saying, "this team is built around the defensive line"? It would still be that way and we'd have superior talent at WR to go with it. The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources, or 'haven't you noticed'?
A mismatch WR remains a big need on this team, and it's likely that in 2021 a premium pick will be required to get one, and whoever we pick, there's a decent enough chance they won't be as dominant as the aforementioned players.
You can like what DG and Judge are building and still reserve some criticism of DG for wasting that opportunity on a ill-conceived and unwise trade.
ASJ thanks for responding to my criticism of GT but you've missed both my main points.
First you continue in Terps' vein of of playing "you could have drafted so and so."
It's a BS game with extremely stacked odds, when looking at individual players. The only real argument to make about "could have drafted" in the draft is about positional value, not about players. So Getty can take one fairly on the chin for Barkley, but not for Jones, and really not for Baker IMO.
My main point was anyone can criticise any GM and say "you could have picked so and so". It's meaningless. (The only exceptions to the rule are guys like Lawrence Taylor as a top of the draft guy [and even re Taylor you could claim Pat Swilling was a better draft VALUE in round 2] or Jerry Rice - they are rare historical artifacts.
So please chuck that could have drafted X argument. Another crucial point you make may very well be flat out wrong:
The goal is to build a TEAM, where all the pieces fit together, NOT TO accumulate great players.
So, so far as top WR talent goes, I wonder how much JJ and DG value those guys. Passed up plenty of opportunities last year in the WR market, didn't they?
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the trade, if what OBJ did while he is here is clouding what he's not doing in Cleveland - that's a poor way of looking at it.
He's no longer an elite WR, and he's still injured and missing games. Frankly, he may not have been elite by the time we unloaded him.
His peak now is a 1000 yard, 5 TD player. And even that will be a huge stretch to accomplish
How us that his peak? How do you know this. He's no longer an elite WR?. I think so. People have been trying to diminish his skills since he left..
1000 yard and 5 TD's? I would bet most WR's would jump at those numbers
what makes you think he's an elite WR?? He's going on his 4th significant leg injury and the past two seasons he's averaged less than 70 yards per game. That's elite?? And he's going to come back from injury just as good as before? He's not even getting into the end zone. He has 6 TD's his last season here and he had 4 playing every game last season.
Maybe most WR's would jump at 1000 yards and 5 TD's - but are elite WR's jumping at that?? He's now a high contract JAG.
His elite days are few and far between now.
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In comment 15048476 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the trade, if what OBJ did while he is here is clouding what he's not doing in Cleveland - that's a poor way of looking at it.
He's no longer an elite WR, and he's still injured and missing games. Frankly, he may not have been elite by the time we unloaded him.
His peak now is a 1000 yard, 5 TD player. And even that will be a huge stretch to accomplish
How us that his peak? How do you know this. He's no longer an elite WR?. I think so. People have been trying to diminish his skills since he left..
1000 yard and 5 TD's? I would bet most WR's would jump at those numbers
what makes you think he's an elite WR?? He's going on his 4th significant leg injury and the past two seasons he's averaged less than 70 yards per game. That's elite?? And he's going to come back from injury just as good as before? He's not even getting into the end zone. He has 6 TD's his last season here and he had 4 playing every game last season.
Maybe most WR's would jump at 1000 yards and 5 TD's - but are elite WR's jumping at that?? He's now a high contract JAG.
His last injury was for a sports hernia in which he played all season. Considering he's playing with another 1000 yard receiver in Landy and an 1000 yard rusher in Chubbs, how much of the ball is he going to see? Unlike when he was here, when they had no one..
And you really are calling him a JAG?? If we are going to go by just stats his last 2 years, then hell, every player that was bought in the last 3 years are JAGs.
Well, I guess we should just get rid of Barkley then too. He's been injured the last 2 years..
Who the hell cares at this point if we signed him beforehand. He's gone.
What are you talking about?
His last injury was for a sports hernia in which he played all season. Considering he's playing with another 1000 yard receiver in Landy and an 1000 yard rusher in Chubbs, how much of the ball is he going to see? Unlike when he was here, when they had no one..
And you really are calling him a JAG?? If we are going to go by just stats his last 2 years, then hell, every player that was bought in the last 3 years are JAGs.
Well, I guess we should just get rid of Barkley then too. He's been injured the last 2 years..
Since you brought it up, I wouldn't recommend paying Barkley elite RB money when that time comes.
Now, onto Beckham - there was a time when he was being compared around here to Jerry Rice. Now the excuse for his pedestrian receiving numbers is Jarvis Landry and Nick Chubb?
He's a WR with 4 significant injuries in his career. If this was a non-Giant and you were asked if you'd want to make him one of the highest paid players on the team, you'd say no without hesitation.
I loved watching Beckham play. He's not that player anymore. He's not in the same group as Hopkins, Thomas and other #1's. He's an average player who will be coming off a significant injury.
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All game. 55 percent connect rate. Gross. Unlike here with some of the people that are absolutely butt hurt we traded their favorite player browns fans conceded we hands down won the trade unless he reternued to peek form in 2020. He clearly hasn’t. Can’t believe there are people here that still defend the trade. I get why people have an emotional attachment to him, he was a bright spot in some bad times, but let’s not forget he actively lost us his only playoff game anc his antics were a constant distraction.
So I guess you had a problem with Eli throwing the ball to Plax during the 07 game against the Packers?. You have a elite player, you feed them the ball. It ain't rocket science..
There’s 50 guys in the league that would put up those numbers with targets like that. Kitchens was way over the head and was forcing the ball to Odell so he wouldn’t throw a tantrum. Eli was throwing the ball to Plax in that game because the Packers decided to put their best corner on an island against Plax. Not sure what the similarities are here. The advantage of having elite players is they open up other things or they play it straight and your guy makes them pay. This isn’t Madden.
So add in one of our free agent signings as well. Short story, we killed them on this trade. And it's not even close
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That culture shift cost the Giants 3 years and counting..
What are you talking about?
You said it was a part of the culture shift. I responded. It cost 3 years to rebuild from the culture shift..
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In comment 15048472 Zeke's Alibi said:
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All game. 55 percent connect rate. Gross. Unlike here with some of the people that are absolutely butt hurt we traded their favorite player browns fans conceded we hands down won the trade unless he reternued to peek form in 2020. He clearly hasn’t. Can’t believe there are people here that still defend the trade. I get why people have an emotional attachment to him, he was a bright spot in some bad times, but let’s not forget he actively lost us his only playoff game anc his antics were a constant distraction.
So I guess you had a problem with Eli throwing the ball to Plax during the 07 game against the Packers?. You have a elite player, you feed them the ball. It ain't rocket science..
There’s 50 guys in the league that would put up those numbers with targets like that. Kitchens was way over the head and was forcing the ball to Odell so he wouldn’t throw a tantrum. Eli was throwing the ball to Plax in that game because the Packers decided to put their best corner on an island against Plax. Not sure what the similarities are here. The advantage of having elite players is they open up other things or they play it straight and your guy makes them pay. This isn’t Madden.
Before I even respond, you have something to back up this claim about Kitchens having them force the ball to Beckham??
Is it that the Giants didn't get the better end of the deal or that the Giants would be better off if they still had Beckham??
Because it certainly seems that the Giants got the better end of the deal and if they didn't trade him, would be saddled with another high contract guy who can't stay on the field.
Is he the same player as he was in his first 3 years? Probably not. But the bar was set those 3 years. Those were HoF number he was putting up. So if he's now a notch under Hopkins and Adams, that makes him a finished player??
Therein lies the problem. Whenever a player does not perform to his peak, every year, fans are ready to let them go. It was said about JPP. He had a few rough years but was getting back in the groove. Now look at him. It's no rebound.
This constant ridding the team of talent to go chase a new shiny toy.
I figured. No evidence,. And you just answered your own question. Kitchens was way over his head and there was MANY mouths to feed.
He's probably a notch below Thielen, Kupp, Cooper and Allen.
And, we have no idea where he'll be after coming back from a serious injury
Giants paid him just like he wanted and one month later he said he didn't want to be here. I mean, maybe the kid didn't want to be here? What's the point of keeping someone if AFTER you pay them, they tell you that?
Is he the same player as he was in his first 3 years? Probably not. But the bar was set those 3 years. Those were HoF number he was putting up. So if he's now a notch under Hopkins and Adams, that makes him a finished player??
Therein lies the problem. Whenever a player does not perform to his peak, every year, fans are ready to let them go. It was said about JPP. He had a few rough years but was getting back in the groove. Now look at him. It's no rebound.
This constant ridding the team of talent to go chase a new shiny toy.
OBJ trade had nothing to do with chasing some shiny new toy. It was to rid the team of a talented but problem child for the organization, and get value for him while they could.
Tate as a Giant (12 starts, 19 games) - 73 receptions / 49.8 ypg / 13 ypc / 8 tds / 61% catch% / 7.9 yards per target
OBJ as a Brown (22 starts, 22 games) - 97 receptions / 58.9 ypg / 14 ypc / 8 tds / 55% catch% / 7.7 yards per target
not sure what you're showing me
Trading OBJ's elite talent (for 2 younger starters on D) was a mistake and signing a mediocre player like Golden Tate was a mistake...
But they have basically been the exact same player for their respective teams.
Even if they are both equivalent malcontents, don't you see an inconsistency in that argument just based on the actual production?
Let me put this another way - if the Giants traded the last 2 years of Golden Tate tomorrow for a first, a third, and Peppers, would you consider that a good trade?
He's probably a notch below Thielen, Kupp, Cooper and Allen.
And, we have no idea where he'll be after coming back from a serious injury
I think he is/was prior to this latest injury.
Giants paid him just like he wanted and one month later he said he didn't want to be here. I mean, maybe the kid didn't want to be here? What's the point of keeping someone if AFTER you pay them, they tell you that?
Jim, not sure I ever saw that or read that anywhere but here. I don't follow or care about guys outside the lines.
With injuries, they are a big concern I agree with that..
And I think all of the #1's on those teams are doing better than Beckham.
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and I'd say they traded him right before all those injuries which was prudent, GManinDC, do you remember that he didn't want to be here?
Giants paid him just like he wanted and one month later he said he didn't want to be here. I mean, maybe the kid didn't want to be here? What's the point of keeping someone if AFTER you pay them, they tell you that?
Jim, not sure I ever saw that or read that anywhere but here. I don't follow or care about guys outside the lines.
With injuries, they are a big concern I agree with that..
So why did they trade him? He was a superstar heading to the HOF (I agree pre injury). Then they paid him as the top WR. Why was the trade made?
26th in yards
32nd in ypg
29th in ypc
28th in first downs
67th in touchdowns
174th in catch%
And this year he was averaging 20 fewer YPG when he got hurt.
There is simply not a single stat that supports OBJ performing like an elite player in the last 2 years.
And I think all of the #1's on those teams are doing better than Beckham.
They are. But are those teams #2 as good as Landy, who I think is a #1
Jones and Ridley had 100 more yards and 3 more TD's
Woods and Kupp had 200 more yards and 2 more TD's
It isn't even like Beckham and Landry are considered the top duo in the NFL. May not even be a top 5 duo
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Bucs, Chargers, Cowboys, Falcons, Seahawks and Rams can all be considered to have a very good #1/#2 combo.
And I think all of the #1's on those teams are doing better than Beckham.
They are. But are those teams #2 as good as Landy, who I think is a #1
If Landry is a #1, the Beckham is a #2. And the numbers bear that out. Which should be, by definition, not the standing of an elite player
But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??