Revisiting the Odell Beckham Jr. trade —

in QB. I bet Fitzmagic would have them humming..

In comment 15048786 LBH15 said:

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In comment 15048758 GManinDC said: Quote: I'm not even really defending OBJ. But this talk of winning a trade and that he's a JAG are way off. The Giants haven't won anything. They got returns. We'll continue to see how it plays. I do like Lawrence. Is he the same player as he was in his first 3 years? Probably not. But the bar was set those 3 years. Those were HoF number he was putting up. So if he's now a notch under Hopkins and Adams, that makes him a finished player?? Therein lies the problem. Whenever a player does not perform to his peak, every year, fans are ready to let them go. It was said about JPP. He had a few rough years but was getting back in the groove. Now look at him. It's no rebound. This constant ridding the team of talent to go chase a new shiny toy. OBJ trade had nothing to do with chasing some shiny new toy. It was to rid the team of a talented but problem child for the organization, and get value for him while they could.

I know it was a culture war. The shiny new toy is a reference to ridding our home grown players and paying FA's..

In comment 15048842 GManinDC said:

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I think ya'll proved you point I am changing my position. I think looking at it now, with his injuries, it was a good trade.. But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??

That's the key mistake we made. although without him signed, the trade either happens earlier or for far less

In comment 15048842 GManinDC said:

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I think ya'll proved you point I am changing my position. I think looking at it now, with his injuries, it was a good trade.. But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??

I have 2 thoughts on that.

1. They wanted it to work, Shurmur wanted to try the blank slate, cross your fingers and hope 2016 OBJ comes back, calms down with the security of a big contract, and wins a few games practically by himself. That would have been everyone's ideal.

2. They knew the trade market in 2018 when he was still rehabbing from surgery without a contract and signed him to a deal that they knew would increase his trade value if they needed to break the glass in case of emergency.

Put another way, I don't think they signed him to trade him but I also don't think it was a coincidence that his contract was structured to be easily tradeable less than 12 months later without a calamitous cap hit. That is too rare for a megadeal.

In comment 15048835 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Evans and Godwin had 7 more TD's and 400 more yards Jones and Ridley had 100 more yards and 3 more TD's Woods and Kupp had 200 more yards and 2 more TD's It isn't even like Beckham and Landry are considered the top duo in the NFL. May not even be a top 5 duo

You see how many targets those guys got? Double what Landy has now..

In comment 15048842 GManinDC said:

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I think ya'll proved you point I am changing my position. I think looking at it now, with his injuries, it was a good trade.. But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??

Because they thought he'd be happy getting paid. Once that didn't work they cut their losses. We just saw something similar with Yannick - give up a good pick for an ascending player, couldn't make the money work and they recouped what they could and moved on. Not comparing the players at all, just that sometimes you have to go for it, but it won't always work.

Even before this injury Cleveland was going to struggle getting that compensation back (or close to it) for Beckham if they traded him away. I'm pretty sure they wanted to get rid of him and now won't have that opportunity until next year, and at a lower price point.

but he's way too much of a headache to put up with, considering his injuries and overall diva nature.

He's also not a top 5, maybe top 10 WR. He's just not. First 3 years of his career? Absolutely. But unfortunately his personal shit and injuries have derailed his once HOF promising career.

than Beckham, based on overall play, injuries, point in their careers, and just overall type of personality:

Adams, Diggs, Hopkins, Lockett, Metcalf, Allen, Thielen, Ridley, McLaurin, Evans, Moore, Lamb, Kupp, Jefferson, Jeudy, Robinson

The list probably stops there. It was a no brainer trade.

because if he doesn't get hurt this year the trade would have worked for both parties. As is it's basically one sided in NYG favor. Browns could use another good starting WR right now. Beckham might not be the same player as 2015-2016 but he's still a good starting WR. Browns miss him in the lineup.

I am over it from a Giants trade POV. I do think it's sad BEckham never got to play in a sustained stretch of good NYG football as he would have been highly appreciated here if so. Shit happens.

on my list, obviously he's on there.

In comment 15048842 GManinDC said:

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I think ya'll proved you point I am changing my position. I think looking at it now, with his injuries, it was a good trade.. But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries??

I disagreed with the Beckham pick - but I was wrong. Look - he didn't get the Giants a Lombardi, but oh did he ever get us highlights, he gave us something to watch for even when the team was horrible. In his prime, Odell Beckham was the GOAT. I've never seen such explosiveness, speed, focus, hands - had it all. I have zero regrets about drafting him - and I have zero regrets about the trade.

is odd. What if the choice was to let him walk for nothing or more likely, allow him to hold out and stew and threaten to sit out games? The Giants nipped that part, gave him a well deserved contract and then Beckham proceeded to force the issue by talking even more shit. You could make the case the Giants guaranteed themselves at least some value by signing him to the contract.

Other teams have lost WRs equal to BEckham for less or even nothing. See the Eagles and OWens. See Pitt and Antonio Brown. The Giants were creeping closer and closer to that group.

Could they have traded Beckahm after 2018 and get back the same or more value? Sure, maybe, but he was HURT at that point in time. Very hurt. He wasn't hurt in 2019.

Giants were risking something even if they:

--held out and didn't offer the contract
--traded him after 2018 because Beckham was hurt
--signed him and then traded him once he started bitching

The time to trade him was 2016 but who trades a still cheap, demi god WR who is on his way to Canton? It never happens.

In comment 15048855 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 15048842 GManinDC said: Quote: I think ya'll proved you point I am changing my position. I think looking at it now, with his injuries, it was a good trade.. But why did they sign him in the first place if it was concern with the injuries?? I have 2 thoughts on that. 1. They wanted it to work, Shurmur wanted to try the blank slate, cross your fingers and hope 2016 OBJ comes back, calms down with the security of a big contract, and wins a few games practically by himself. That would have been everyone's ideal. 2. They knew the trade market in 2018 when he was still rehabbing from surgery without a contract and signed him to a deal that they knew would increase his trade value if they needed to break the glass in case of emergency. Put another way, I don't think they signed him to trade him but I also don't think it was a coincidence that his contract was structured to be easily tradeable less than 12 months later without a calamitous cap hit. That is too rare for a megadeal.

Yeah, I agree with #1. Not so much #2.

In comment 15048762 GManinDC said:

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In comment 15048743 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: offense. Lots of mouths to feed over there and I’m certain he was worried about Odell blowing up. The results were garbage. Now they are a run first football team that is good. If Odell was still elite you’d see a helluva lot more big plays, but you don’t because he’s not the same player. I figured. No evidence,. And you just answered your own question. Kitchens was way over his head and there was MANY mouths to feed.

I mean there was plenty of evidence here. Throwing tantrums and quitting on plays when he didn’t get the ball. Of course there was no evidence of it there, they literally forced him the ball to the tune of a 55 percent catch rate. Will be interesting to see what will happen if they start losing this year.

What difference does it make now? He’s a marginal number 1 now that his elite explosiveness is gone and often injured. A guy with a history of concentration drops. We won the trade in a landslide and the only people on the other side of that are Giants fans ironically

We won the trade based on production, availability and salary. This is not debatable. We also won because that distraction is gone. He was distraction here and in Cleveland. Also, not debatable. Halftime IV's before halftime, Stupid interviews, talks about playing elsewhere while under contract. You are on a TEAM. When interviewed, you use cliche to say nothing that has a chance to mess with team chemistry. He is a me first guy in the ultimate team sport. No thanks.

In comment 15048923 Thegratefulhead said:

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We won the trade based on production, availability and salary. This is not debatable. We also won because that distraction is gone. He was distraction here and in Cleveland. Also, not debatable. Halftime IV's before halftime, Stupid interviews, talks about playing elsewhere while under contract. You are on a TEAM. When interviewed, you use cliche to say nothing that has a chance to mess with team chemistry. He is a me first guy in the ultimate team sport. No thanks.

I wonder if "the catch" was the worst thing to ever happen to OBJ. His recognition exploded. He was the Giants. So it's quite easy to see how he saw ME in TEAM.

It was the right move to trade OBJ. But I also think there is room to criticize Jints Central for being unable to manage his personality. Gettleman said "you don't quit on talent". Fine. So figure out how to manage that talent/personality to keep him on the rail...

is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him.

That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character.

Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room.

I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham

Said he wanted to play somewhere else and was loading on field. Even if he was still an elite player not sure what you can do there.

as a top WR is over. When we talk about his "talent", we can talk about it the same way we would talk about the talent that a retired player used to have... because it is all in the past.

In comment 15048856 GManinDC said:

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In comment 15048835 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: Evans and Godwin had 7 more TD's and 400 more yards Jones and Ridley had 100 more yards and 3 more TD's Woods and Kupp had 200 more yards and 2 more TD's It isn't even like Beckham and Landry are considered the top duo in the NFL. May not even be a top 5 duo You see how many targets those guys got? Double what Landy has now..

Is that you Odell?

In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him. That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character. Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room. I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham

Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics.

I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..

In comment 15049025 GManinDC said:

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In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him. That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character. Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room. I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics. I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him..

Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games)
101 receptions (59.8% catch rate)
85 yards per game (1367 for year)
13.5 ypc
10 tds

First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games)
77 receptions (62.1% catch rate)
87 yards per game (1052 for year)
13.7 ypc
6 tds

Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.

In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him. That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character. Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room. I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham

Why is it always receivers? (Maybe a smattering of CB's).

Every game top receivers get 5-10 chances to posterize someone (like Hopkins did).

QB's have the ball the most but get blamed too much for anything bad that happens.

99% of RB/TE jobs aren't glamorous. OL and IDL/ILB forget about it. Nobody sees what they do.

Flashy edge rushers and shutdown CBs come closest, but receivers who can "moss" people get the attention because the game is the most obviously 1 on 1 for them.

The game has trended towards receivers producing more highlight worthy plays than anyone else, so they get the most praise, and have naturally produced the most players who crave that individual attention.

I am a small business owner. Loyalty is a big deal to me. Not about managing talent in my opinion. If I give you a giant contract, I expect loyalty in return. He was done in NY the second that interview aired. No one will ever admit it but I will die believing ownership picked up the the phone and said get what you can for him within moments after they heard it. I would have done the exact same thing.

In comment 15049034 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 15049025 GManinDC said: Quote: In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him. That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character. Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room. I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics. I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him.. Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games) 101 receptions (59.8% catch rate) 85 yards per game (1367 for year) 13.5 ypc 10 tds First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games) 77 receptions (62.1% catch rate) 87 yards per game (1052 for year) 13.7 ypc 6 tds Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.

Thanks for the stats. He didn't regress in 2019. He had almost the same stats had in 2018. He was injured all season..

In comment 15048589 EricJ said:

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In comment 15048580 GManinDC said: Quote: DK has a elite QB throwing the ball to him. OBJ had to deal with a bunch of other very good WR's on the team DK also has other WRs on his team. Odell cannot even get open anymore. They no longer need to double him. The worst thing that happened to OBJ was that catch when we lost to Dallas.

OK, come on. DK is an elite receiver and he'd be an elite receiver with or without Russell Wilson at QB or Tyler Lockett on the other side. If you've watched the Seahawks, he has become the #1 priority for opposing defenses to stop. He draws their best corner and often times help on top of that, and he still wins in those matchups often.

I didn't say DK was not a elite receiver

In comment 15049034 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 15049025 GManinDC said: Quote: In comment 15048938 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: is always a tricky situation. I think the way the Giants decided to manage it was to trade him. That's the way a lot of guys like Beckham have been treated, and by some other very good organizations. The steelers got rid of Brown for a pittance. Several teams had their fill of TO. Randy Moss was eventually moved from Minny. And I think the line gets drawn between team disruption vs. just an odd character. Ochocinco was managed well by Cincy, but he was healthy, productive and rarely caused a stir in the locker room. I'm not sure what other options the team had with Beckham Kinda where I was thinking. about coaching talent with issues. Those guys you named were managed pretty well, at times I thought. I never thought OBJ was in those guys category as far as antics. I didn't think Shurmur was a good coach at all. Look what McAdoo got out of him.. Last full year with Mcadoo (2016 - 16 games) 101 receptions (59.8% catch rate) 85 yards per game (1367 for year) 13.5 ypc 10 tds First full year with Shurmur (2018 - 12 games) 77 receptions (62.1% catch rate) 87 yards per game (1052 for year) 13.7 ypc 6 tds Both used OBJ well/similarly. OBJ went on the boat trip in 2016 and the lil wayne interview in 2018. Had he not gotten injured in 2017 I think he'd have been traded then, I think he needed 2018 to prove he could still play, though unfortunately for Cleveland he regressed in 2019 and was doing so again 2020.

It's more accurate to say that the quarterback throwing Beckham the ball regressed in 2019. Again, it's not productive to compare Beckham's stats year to year as if everything around him is static. I know people like him quite a bit, but Baker Mayfield has yet to prove that he's any better than an average passer in the NFL - and that has to be factored in when evaluating Beckham's numbers in Cleveland.

In comment 15048636 BelieveJJ said:

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In comment 15048546 allstarjim said: Quote: I'm glad you're not in charge, because that's dumb. First, they are both better players than Slayton by a wide margin. Second, nothing precludes you from drafting Slayton in round 5 if you also drafted either of the other players. Third, the team would still be built around the defensive line as both of those guys were 2nd rounders picked after our 2019 2nd round pick that Gettleman traded, along with #132 and #142 for DeAndre Baker, who we all know was a bad deal and a waste of resources. In other words, we could've had either of those guys, plus we'd still have Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Williams on the DL, so what's the point of saying, "this team is built around the defensive line"? It would still be that way and we'd have superior talent at WR to go with it. The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources, or 'haven't you noticed'? A mismatch WR remains a big need on this team, and it's likely that in 2021 a premium pick will be required to get one, and whoever we pick, there's a decent enough chance they won't be as dominant as the aforementioned players. You can like what DG and Judge are building and still reserve some criticism of DG for wasting that opportunity on a ill-conceived and unwise trade. ASJ thanks for responding to my criticism of GT but you've missed both my main points. First you continue in Terps' vein of of playing "you could have drafted so and so." It's a BS game with extremely stacked odds, when looking at individual players. The only real argument to make about "could have drafted" in the draft is about positional value, not about players. So Getty can take one fairly on the chin for Barkley, but not for Jones, and really not for Baker IMO. My main point was anyone can criticise any GM and say "you could have picked so and so". It's meaningless. (The only exceptions to the rule are guys like Lawrence Taylor as a top of the draft guy [and even re Taylor you could claim Pat Swilling was a better draft VALUE in round 2] or Jerry Rice - they are rare historical artifacts. So please chuck that could have drafted X argument. Another crucial point you make may very well be flat out wrong: Quote: The goal is to accumulate as many great players as possible with your available resources. The goal is to build a TEAM, where all the pieces fit together, NOT TO accumulate great players. So, so far as top WR talent goes, I wonder how much JJ and DG value those guys. Passed up plenty of opportunities last year in the WR market, didn't they?

Yeah they passed on opportunities in the receiver market because when you don't have an offensive line or really much in the back 7 of that defense with the exception of their free agent signings and Peppers. The general philosophy of Gettleman appears to be to be tough in the trenches and defense first. It's a philosophy I generally agree with. So there's good reason to have focused on OL and defense in that draft, and eschew WR.

That said, they burned 3 picks to draft Baker, when similarly graded corners were on the board. I understand they had Baker as their top corner in the class. However, they seemed to be unaware of the whispers that he was a behavioral / character flag...which was reported and known in the scouting community, and they yet burned three picks on him.

When you miss that badly, you deserve the criticism. Trades are risky, but you have to weigh the upshot of what is available at your 2nd round pick at #37 (only 7 picks later), and what the value is of #132, and decide if the player you want is worth that investment. They decided a CB with mediocre speed and a character flag was worth that investment, while Tampa might have gotten the best corner in the draft at #39 overall.

And while you can easily say all these other teams passed on Brown and Metcalf, at least in Brown's case he was a well-known prospect who was very well thought of in draft circles as a complete receiver who was NFL-ready. And in terms of building a culture, both of them were clean prospects who have done nothing but work extremely hard and dominate on Sundays.

You can say what you want about building a team over great players, but let's face it, they fucked up. You're not passing on great players that you also think will fit into the team culture, and both of those guys would. The only question on DK was if he could run the entire route tree. Turns out he can.

Not only did they pass on better players/prospects, they traded up and wasted additional resources on a player with a known character flag...so either they didn't know about the character issues, or they felt the upshot was worth it to get what they felt would be an island type of cover corner, blowing away the "team" argument. In either case, it's terrible from a scouting and draft resource management standpoint, whether or not they would have used pick #37 on Brown or Metcalf. And Gettleman deserves the criticism for that.

Your argument that "the goal is to build a team" is just fine, but Baker is no longer on this team and he really didn't add anything to the teambuilding atmosphere when he was here, either.

but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION.

BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure.


I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc?

Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

In comment 15049088 GManinDC said:

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I didn't say DK was not a elite receiver

That's fine and all, and I'm not really keeping track of who is saying what. What I am saying is that you have people trying to lessen what a player is by pointing out that said player has Russell Wilson throwing him the ball or that Tyler Lockett is playing on the other side. It's nonsense. He's a great player, period, you don't need to mention any of that other stuff because it doesn't matter. Those factors aren't what makes him great, he'd be great with them or without them.

The same thing happens here when discussing QB play over the years, both with Eli and Jones. When Eli was struggling year after year, all you heard about was how the OL wasn't good, or that Beckham was hurt, or they didn't have a good run game to help him. No, Eli was no longer a winning QB, period. It's an attempt to obfuscate the truth, which was very simple, and independent of those other factors. It was time to move on because he was no longer good enough.

because they were annoyed by the so called distractions. they traded him because someone made an offer they liked and Odell was getting more and more dangerous with the trade me whispers. The Giants sold their stock before it hit 0. It's that simple.

In comment 15049116 djm said:

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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION. BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure. I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc? Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

If you don’t think that type of shit circulates and causes problems in a locker room like an old lady sewing circle your being naive. Pat McAfee says it on his show all the time, the way the locker room is is imperative as far as team failures/successes go that is often overlooked by fans.

In comment 15049116 djm said:

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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION. BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure. I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc? Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

Thank you

/end thread

In comment 15048940 Zeke's Alibi said:

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Said he wanted to play somewhere else and was loading on field. Even if he was still an elite player not sure what you can do there.

Exactly. The Giants historically stick with their home grown stars unless shit goes south.

And this one of my biggest concerns with DG. He's VERY quick to the draw on older vets and it can bite him. For every Beckham or Vernon trade there's a JPP move in there too and even going back to Greg Olsen and Steve Smith in Carolina. Both had life when DG wanted to dump them both, especially Smith when he went to Balt.

If you love seeing good players stick here in NY for a long time, DG aint your guy. Sometimes this is a good thing but not always.

to play somewhere else? I'm confused about where people are getting the idea that he wanted to be traded from the Giants.

In comment 15049116 djm said:

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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION. BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure. I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc? Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.

i get the argument of "well we shouldn't have signed him" that's definitely a fair take. But...the returns of the trade have been pretty good to really good if Lawrence improves from what he is now, and Peppers plays like the way he's been used in Graham's new system.

We got 2 talented defensive starters for Beckham. That's a pretty solid return for a guy who had worn out his welcome here.

In comment 15049140 ryanmkeane said:

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i get the argument of "well we shouldn't have signed him" that's definitely a fair take. But...the returns of the trade have been pretty good to really good if Lawrence improves from what he is now, and Peppers plays like the way he's been used in Graham's new system. We got 2 talented defensive starters for Beckham. That's a pretty solid return for a guy who had worn out his welcome here.

agree

In comment 15049116 djm said:

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but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION. BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure. I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc? Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior.

All due respect, but you couldn't be more wrong. Anyone who has spent time in a football locker room at any level knows that selfish players causing distractions can 100% have a negative effect on team chemistry, and that can very easily hurt performance on the field.

I know a lot of you see football through the lense of fantasy stats, but team chemistry and culture matters.

some distractions are easy to navigate - see Judge on Tate. And others Belichick doesn't even want to deal with - most recently with Antonio Brown and all the other players he's told to fuck off.

I do 100% agree that fans make up narratives on what's a bad distraction but I think it was legit with Beckham.

In comment 15049138 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 15049116 djm said: Quote: but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION. BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure. I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc? Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior. You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone.

What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?

In comment 15049129 eclipz928 said:

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to play somewhere else? I'm confused about where people are getting the idea that he wanted to be traded from the Giants.

all it takes is one person to say it and it becomes fact..

In comment 15049120 GManinDC said:

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In comment 15049116 djm said: Quote: but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION. BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure. I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc? Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior. Thank you /end thread

Sounds to me like you've never played sports. That isn't how "distractions" work. Games are played on sundays but the hard work is done all week long and that's where camaraderie, work ethic, planning, training, etc all comes into play. If none of that matters then you wouldn't ever see good players traded away or flat out cut.

Go ask Judge about distractions and what he thinks of them. He's address why he doesn't talk negatively about players to the media - he said he doesn't want them to become season long distractions.

facts around why drafting Baker was so bad. And there's no argument now that he was an awful pick.

Now, after the fact when new information has come to light!

A scout was fired due to the miss out on Baker, and ultimately DG has to accept the responsibility for the failed pick, no argument there.

But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.

One UGA media guy glowingly called Baker best CB in the entire history of UGA football!

After he came to training camp as a Giant, reports of him sleeping during team meetings, and sleeping in the players' lounge area, rather than studying his playbook like most all the other rookies would, came to light.

If you have a documented source of published info re the behavioral red flags around Baker prior to the draft (not the combine speed issue), I'd love to see them.

Enjoy the debate, thanks.

In comment 15049172 GManinDC said:

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In comment 15049138 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 15049116 djm said: Quote: but nothing gets me going like the fan favorite, the one and only, the DISTRACTION. BEckham was a distraction here, yet we won more games from 14-2016 then we did 2018-2020. Go figure. I keep askiong this, but does a QB get distracted by something Beckahm said one day prior on his instagram account when it's 3rd and 10 and the pocket collapses? IS that when Beckham's distractions really cause havoc? Fans are distracted. And media members. Players play the game and couldn't give a fuck what Beckham said in some stupid PC one week prior. You don't think players walking off the field before the half is over in a contested game to get an IV because he doesn't like the way water feels in his tummy can affect team morale? How about that injury that kept him off the field for his last 4 games as a Giant? So glad he is gone. What about the injury that kept him out??. He was injured, what was he supposed to do?

The bruised quad that cost him 4 games. A bruised quad. It's the NFL. They all have bruised something, every day.

In comment 15049189 BelieveJJ said:

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But I do a lot of reading and nowadays even more podcast listening about the Giants and I don't recall any of the negatives about Baker's work habits, or let's be blunt, his flat out stupidity, until after he was in the building. Au contraire, what I heard about Baker was that he was the best most ridiculously serious shut down man cover corner in college for two full years as a starter, in the SEC battling college's best WRs regularly.

I believe Sy pointed out some red flags. But I need to dig it up.

in his 5 years as a NYG he averaged 93 yards per game. his last 2 full years as a NYG, with 2 different coaches/schemes he averaged 85 yards per game (2016 under McAdoo and 2018 under Shurmur) and paced roughly to 10 touchdowns per year.

In his 2 years in CLE he has averaged 58 yards per game and paced to about 6 touchdowns per year.

That's an astronomical production difference that simply can't be explained by anything other than the performance of the guy wearing the #13 jersey.

I'm so old I can remember when Eli Manning was holding OBJ back and Baker Mayfield's deep ball was going to unleash his true potential. Now he can't even match the productivity of Jarvis Landry in the exact same situational circumstances, which is striking because prior to the last 2 years Landry wasn't on the same planet as OBJ in terms of productivity.

I don't think anyone could have honestly predicted this fall off and I am not making any sort of point about the trade other than the timing of his demise being incredibly unfortunate for the Browns. The 4th + 7th round picks they sent to Miami for Jarvis Landry were obviously far better ROI.