To use a bunch of assets to move up a couple spots in a notoriously poor draft. Again I’m giving this FO a chance before I kill them. But to go into this with three picks in the top 38 and to come out with just toppin would be really disappointing
To use a bunch of assets to move up a couple spots in a notoriously poor draft. Again I’m giving this FO a chance before I kill them. But to go into this with three picks in the top 38 and to come out with just toppin would be really disappointing
Bunch of assets seems a little extreme. A late first and a early second are nice but really not that valuable.
If the guy you really want is Toppin and think there's a big dip, then it's a small price to pay to get your guy.
that bad on defense? Is it a mental or physical thing with him?
This is purely my opinion but from what I've seen it's a combination of the two. He's physically limited in terms of how fast he can move laterally and isn't quick enough to flip his hips to get around screens. There is also some mental stuff which I think comes from a lack of coaching/experience. His technique isn't good but it's fixable. He'll never be a good defensive player but I don't think he's so limited physically that with better coaching and more reps he can't become passable on defense to the point where he's not a liability to have on the court.
I like Toppin a lot personally, more so than it seems others on this board do. Having Mitch at the 5 can help to mask some of these limitations for the time being but they'll need to find two other good defensive players to round out the bunch with RJ, Mitch and Toppin.
This is also where having Thibs helps. If what I've seen in watching him play is correct and he is by all accounts a good kid who is smart and works hard, then Thibs should be able to coach him up to the point where he's passable.
To use a bunch of assets to move up a couple spots in a notoriously poor draft. Again I’m giving this FO a chance before I kill them. But to go into this with three picks in the top 38 and to come out with just toppin would be really disappointing
This may be the one year where they can use their financial might to buy a late first or second rounder. I know we all say this every year but this year is unique (I think, we'll see tonight). They could also do so by taking back a contract to help a team get under the luxury tax or clear up extra space.
hate to be mean but Anthony Edwards sounds like he's a very low iq prospect. Not sure how important that is in the NBA vs. the NFL but reading some of his quotes/interviews... he might have issues picking up schemes.
Stefan Bondy
@SBondyNYDN
·
46s
Wouldn’t be surprising if Knicks made a move for Obi Toppin. Lot of ties to the organization — CAA, training with Rick Brunson and has been working out at the gym of Dajuan Wagner, who is like family to Worldwide Wes.
Makes sense to me at 5 or 6, moving up with 8 and 23. We've not heard anything about him being connected to us. Stealth mode makes sense here. I'm fine with him and do think he can coexist with RJ.
hate to be mean but Anthony Edwards sounds like he's a very low iq prospect. Not sure how important that is in the NBA vs. the NFL but reading some of his quotes/interviews... he might have issues picking up schemes.
I was trying to put this the right way but that's a concern about Toppin too. Most of the reason he is so old for his grade is he was academically ineligible his freshman season.
my main problem is that because of his defensive limitations, I can't play the small ball 5. He gets steals in passing lanes and will get weakside blocks. But you can't credibly use him as a 5. Hell, you'd have a better chance at success asking Okoro to do that. Toppin is a little like a young Randle. He's a bad team defender and is gonna get absolutely cooked in the PnR.
Maybe Thibs can coach him up? I wouldn't bank on it though.
hate to be mean but Anthony Edwards sounds like he's a very low iq prospect. Not sure how important that is in the NBA vs. the NFL but reading some of his quotes/interviews... he might have issues picking up schemes.
I was trying to put this the right way but that's a concern about Toppin too. Most of the reason he is so old for his grade is he was academically ineligible his freshman season.
Toppin at least comes off as relatively well-spoken and is clearly a very hard worker. You can look at that history (without it being a huge leap of faith) and come to the conclusion that he was immature at the time but has learned from it. Whereas with Edwards, he seems aloof both on and off the court and has a reputation for disengaging or disappearing for stretches so personally (if we were picking in the top 3) I'd be concerned with him improving drastically.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My friend is speculating it could be a trade up for someone you
Edwards' answer about the NBA vs. NFL was about as bad of an answer as you'll ever see. That's the kind of answer that should scare everyone thinking about drafting him.
On the flipside, I saw some draft analyst guy on ESPN mention that Edwards' acceleration graded out as the best that the sports science testers had measured out of 400 or so NBA prospects/players they had measured over the years. Combine that 1st step explosiveness with his big frame, great vertical, and potentially good shot and he's the guy who you almost have to take at #1 despite all his flaws.
There is much talk here about the difficulty in buying a high #2, but that the potential exists for getting high #2s in exchange for cash plus a future #2. The Knicks have a number of extra future late #1s and random #2s floating around. Do they really need 5 #1s and #2s in 2021? It is entirely possible that they have identified a couple of trade partners for one of those combinations. Go to Knicks section (duh). - ( New Window )
Edwards' answer about the NBA vs. NFL was about as bad of an answer as you'll ever see. That's the kind of answer that should scare everyone thinking about drafting him.
On the flipside, I saw some draft analyst guy on ESPN mention that Edwards' acceleration graded out as the best that the sports science testers had measured out of 400 or so NBA prospects/players they had measured over the years. Combine that 1st step explosiveness with his big frame, great vertical, and potentially good shot and he's the guy who you almost have to take at #1 despite all his flaws.
Wagner's son is the #1 HS player in his class. He is the same year as Lebron's son, who is ranked 20th.
Kelsey Russo
@kelseyyrusso
·
7m
The Cavs and Knicks have discussed trading the No. 5 pick for 8 and 23, but the Cavs are holding out for more, sources told
@TheAthleticNBA
. For reference, the Pelicans and Hawks swapped 4 for 8, 17 and 35, among other pieces, in a draft-day deal last year.
He's a good passer and slasher but without being a threat to knock down jumpers, it's unlikely that'll be effective in the NBA until/unless he improves there.
And Okoro make sense. Toppin doesn’t from a defensive perspective. We need two way players.
The players I want are Okoro, Halliburton, and Williams.
We should be able to stay at 8 and get one of those. Picking 8 is not a bad place to be in this draft.
RAIN - I understand what you are saying, but the Knicks already have 2 players in their projected starting lineup (Mitch and RJ) that can't shoot. They cannot add a 3rd player like Okoro or Williams that can't really shoot yet either. It is why I am so high on Kira/Nesmith and have really warmed up to Obi as well. I think he can be taught, wish he was 20 and not 22, but that is nitpicking.
Jake
@jakeweingarten
Source: The Toronto Raptors have tons of interest in selecting Louisville’s Jordan Nwora with the 29th pick. Tons of buzz surrounding them with him. He and Kyle Lowry share the same representation.
The thing with Obi is everything I've heard (including with Begley/Wasserman today) is he is viewed fairly positively across the league, which I would hope means he has some trade value going forward as needed.
I totally get and largely agree with the defensive criticism, but at this point we are not good enough to worry about things like would get targeted and picked apart in the Eastern finals. I am warming to him as he seems like he could be a plus offensive stretch four that has a feel for passing/playmaking and would fit with RJ and Mitch. If we use this year as one more tank year, started of something like DJ Augustin/Frank/RJ/Obi/Mitch would clearly be bad but at least fun and worth developing.
And Okoro make sense. Toppin doesn’t from a defensive perspective. We need two way players.
The players I want are Okoro, Halliburton, and Williams.
We should be able to stay at 8 and get one of those. Picking 8 is not a bad place to be in this draft.
RAIN - I understand what you are saying, but the Knicks already have 2 players in their projected starting lineup (Mitch and RJ) that can't shoot. They cannot add a 3rd player like Okoro or Williams that can't really shoot yet either. It is why I am so high on Kira/Nesmith and have really warmed up to Obi as well. I think he can be taught, wish he was 20 and not 22, but that is nitpicking.
Defense is something that cannot be taught. I believe shooting, if the base stroke is sound, is much easier to develop. Defense is a mind set. Knox comes to mind as someone that can’t stay on the floor because his defense is atrocious. His shooting and scoring are plus... but his flaws on the other end are fatal. You can’t develop that will to defend. I’d argue it harder to come by than shooting. . Both Okoro and Williams I think have that. Sound form, but need to develop theough reps.
That said, I get your point and it’s also logical but from the opposite direction. If Toppin can develop that will to defend, I’d be on board. I don’t think it’s that easy tho.
Kelsey Russo
@kelseyyrusso
·
7m
The Cavs and Knicks have discussed trading the No. 5 pick for 8 and 23, but the Cavs are holding out for more, sources told
@TheAthleticNBA
. For reference, the Pelicans and Hawks swapped 4 for 8, 17 and 35, among other pieces, in a draft-day deal last year.
I am fine teading up for toppin, but you better get randle off this team, Toppin needs to atart day 1
has us passing on Hayes and Vassell and taking Okoro and Cole anthony
One team executive told me Knicks head coach Tom Thibodeau has a “crush” on Okoro, which should come as no surprise considering their shared passion for defense. Okoro is arguably the best defender in the class, with strength and multi-positional versatility. Okoro does, however, need to improve his jump shot to realize his offensive potential. It’s unlikely that Toppin will still be on the board at this point, but if he is, he’ll be also in consideration.
good 4/5 pair. Like if Toppin is what many think he can be then pairing him with a guy like Mitch would be what you want.
But Yeah randle needs to be gone. They cant play together and ill go through the roof if Randle is logging 35 minutes a game while topping gets 12 and Thibs feeds us lines about vets.
in the 20's (if that is the pick he has us taken him with). ALthough does that mean he has Vessell going after that? I know he was awful last year and has a ton of questions, but he was expected to be a top 5 pick and had an injury riddled year on a bad unc team.
RE: Toppin and mitch actually seem like a really...
good 4/5 pair. Like if Toppin is what many think he can be then pairing him with a guy like Mitch would be what you want.
But Yeah randle needs to be gone. They cant play together and ill go through the roof if Randle is logging 35 minutes a game while topping gets 12 and Thibs feeds us lines about vets.
in the 20's (if that is the pick he has us taken him with). ALthough does that mean he has Vessell going after that? I know he was awful last year and has a ton of questions, but he was expected to be a top 5 pick and had an injury riddled year on a bad unc team.
They pass on Bane and Flynn at 23. I'd take them both over Anthony.
a concern for Toppin or it doesn't matter? Some people are nervous about his age but to me that's not an automatic red flag. It seems as if he's relatively polished which I guess is want you'd want to see from a 22-year-old. His numbers look good but what does concern me is that it doesn't look like he was really "dominating".
@NBADraftWass
·
2m
Yep, already buzz out that that the Knicks are trying to move up to 5 or 6 with 8 and 23
Patrick Williams!
Bunch of assets seems a little extreme. A late first and a early second are nice but really not that valuable.
If the guy you really want is Toppin and think there's a big dip, then it's a small price to pay to get your guy.
This is purely my opinion but from what I've seen it's a combination of the two. He's physically limited in terms of how fast he can move laterally and isn't quick enough to flip his hips to get around screens. There is also some mental stuff which I think comes from a lack of coaching/experience. His technique isn't good but it's fixable. He'll never be a good defensive player but I don't think he's so limited physically that with better coaching and more reps he can't become passable on defense to the point where he's not a liability to have on the court.
I like Toppin a lot personally, more so than it seems others on this board do. Having Mitch at the 5 can help to mask some of these limitations for the time being but they'll need to find two other good defensive players to round out the bunch with RJ, Mitch and Toppin.
This is also where having Thibs helps. If what I've seen in watching him play is correct and he is by all accounts a good kid who is smart and works hard, then Thibs should be able to coach him up to the point where he's passable.
This may be the one year where they can use their financial might to buy a late first or second rounder. I know we all say this every year but this year is unique (I think, we'll see tonight). They could also do so by taking back a contract to help a team get under the luxury tax or clear up extra space.
I also am like 95% sure if we draft Obi and don't get a PG later on that we're going to make a move for Westbrook.
Thibs isn't here to not make the playoffs.
Quote:
wouldn't expect...says the Bulls and Pistons like him enough...
Patrick Williams!
Nope
Quote:
In comment 15049811 Anakim said:
Quote:
wouldn't expect...says the Bulls and Pistons like him enough...
Patrick Williams!
Nope
Does your friend have any connections? or is he just guessing like the rest of us.
Bulls and Pistons have been connected with Hayes so that's who I could see us moving up for if not Toppin.
@SBondyNYDN
·
46s
Wouldn’t be surprising if Knicks made a move for Obi Toppin. Lot of ties to the organization — CAA, training with Rick Brunson and has been working out at the gym of Dajuan Wagner, who is like family to Worldwide Wes.
I was trying to put this the right way but that's a concern about Toppin too. Most of the reason he is so old for his grade is he was academically ineligible his freshman season.
Maybe Thibs can coach him up? I wouldn't bank on it though.
Quote:
hate to be mean but Anthony Edwards sounds like he's a very low iq prospect. Not sure how important that is in the NBA vs. the NFL but reading some of his quotes/interviews... he might have issues picking up schemes.
I was trying to put this the right way but that's a concern about Toppin too. Most of the reason he is so old for his grade is he was academically ineligible his freshman season.
Toppin at least comes off as relatively well-spoken and is clearly a very hard worker. You can look at that history (without it being a huge leap of faith) and come to the conclusion that he was immature at the time but has learned from it. Whereas with Edwards, he seems aloof both on and off the court and has a reputation for disengaging or disappearing for stretches so personally (if we were picking in the top 3) I'd be concerned with him improving drastically.
Quote:
In comment 15049844 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 15049811 Anakim said:
Quote:
wouldn't expect...says the Bulls and Pistons like him enough...
Patrick Williams!
Nope
Does your friend have any connections? or is he just guessing like the rest of us.
Bulls and Pistons have been connected with Hayes so that's who I could see us moving up for if not Toppin.
People on here know who he is
Edwards' answer about the NBA vs. NFL was about as bad of an answer as you'll ever see. That's the kind of answer that should scare everyone thinking about drafting him.
On the flipside, I saw some draft analyst guy on ESPN mention that Edwards' acceleration graded out as the best that the sports science testers had measured out of 400 or so NBA prospects/players they had measured over the years. Combine that 1st step explosiveness with his big frame, great vertical, and potentially good shot and he's the guy who you almost have to take at #1 despite all his flaws.
There is much talk here about the difficulty in buying a high #2, but that the potential exists for getting high #2s in exchange for cash plus a future #2. The Knicks have a number of extra future late #1s and random #2s floating around. Do they really need 5 #1s and #2s in 2021? It is entirely possible that they have identified a couple of trade partners for one of those combinations.
Go to Knicks section (duh). - ( New Window )
Edwards' answer about the NBA vs. NFL was about as bad of an answer as you'll ever see. That's the kind of answer that should scare everyone thinking about drafting him.
On the flipside, I saw some draft analyst guy on ESPN mention that Edwards' acceleration graded out as the best that the sports science testers had measured out of 400 or so NBA prospects/players they had measured over the years. Combine that 1st step explosiveness with his big frame, great vertical, and potentially good shot and he's the guy who you almost have to take at #1 despite all his flaws.
Wagner's son is the #1 HS player in his class. He is the same year as Lebron's son, who is ranked 20th.
The players I want are Okoro, Halliburton, and Williams.
We should be able to stay at 8 and get one of those. Picking 8 is not a bad place to be in this draft.
Kelsey Russo
@kelseyyrusso
·
7m
The Cavs and Knicks have discussed trading the No. 5 pick for 8 and 23, but the Cavs are holding out for more, sources told
@TheAthleticNBA
. For reference, the Pelicans and Hawks swapped 4 for 8, 17 and 35, among other pieces, in a draft-day deal last year.
The players I want are Okoro, Halliburton, and Williams.
We should be able to stay at 8 and get one of those. Picking 8 is not a bad place to be in this draft.
RAIN - I understand what you are saying, but the Knicks already have 2 players in their projected starting lineup (Mitch and RJ) that can't shoot. They cannot add a 3rd player like Okoro or Williams that can't really shoot yet either. It is why I am so high on Kira/Nesmith and have really warmed up to Obi as well. I think he can be taught, wish he was 20 and not 22, but that is nitpicking.
Jake
@jakeweingarten
Source: The Toronto Raptors have tons of interest in selecting Louisville’s Jordan Nwora with the 29th pick. Tons of buzz surrounding them with him. He and Kyle Lowry share the same representation.
I totally get and largely agree with the defensive criticism, but at this point we are not good enough to worry about things like would get targeted and picked apart in the Eastern finals. I am warming to him as he seems like he could be a plus offensive stretch four that has a feel for passing/playmaking and would fit with RJ and Mitch. If we use this year as one more tank year, started of something like DJ Augustin/Frank/RJ/Obi/Mitch would clearly be bad but at least fun and worth developing.
Quote:
And Okoro make sense. Toppin doesn’t from a defensive perspective. We need two way players.
The players I want are Okoro, Halliburton, and Williams.
We should be able to stay at 8 and get one of those. Picking 8 is not a bad place to be in this draft.
RAIN - I understand what you are saying, but the Knicks already have 2 players in their projected starting lineup (Mitch and RJ) that can't shoot. They cannot add a 3rd player like Okoro or Williams that can't really shoot yet either. It is why I am so high on Kira/Nesmith and have really warmed up to Obi as well. I think he can be taught, wish he was 20 and not 22, but that is nitpicking.
Defense is something that cannot be taught. I believe shooting, if the base stroke is sound, is much easier to develop. Defense is a mind set. Knox comes to mind as someone that can’t stay on the floor because his defense is atrocious. His shooting and scoring are plus... but his flaws on the other end are fatal. You can’t develop that will to defend. I’d argue it harder to come by than shooting. . Both Okoro and Williams I think have that. Sound form, but need to develop theough reps.
That said, I get your point and it’s also logical but from the opposite direction. If Toppin can develop that will to defend, I’d be on board. I don’t think it’s that easy tho.
ANd CLE can fuck right off if they want more to move back 3 spots.
Kelsey Russo
@kelseyyrusso
·
7m
The Cavs and Knicks have discussed trading the No. 5 pick for 8 and 23, but the Cavs are holding out for more, sources told
@TheAthleticNBA
. For reference, the Pelicans and Hawks swapped 4 for 8, 17 and 35, among other pieces, in a draft-day deal last year.
I am fine teading up for toppin, but you better get randle off this team, Toppin needs to atart day 1
One team executive told me Knicks head coach Tom Thibodeau has a “crush” on Okoro, which should come as no surprise considering their shared passion for defense. Okoro is arguably the best defender in the class, with strength and multi-positional versatility. Okoro does, however, need to improve his jump shot to realize his offensive potential. It’s unlikely that Toppin will still be on the board at this point, but if he is, he’ll be also in consideration.
But Yeah randle needs to be gone. They cant play together and ill go through the roof if Randle is logging 35 minutes a game while topping gets 12 and Thibs feeds us lines about vets.
But Yeah randle needs to be gone. They cant play together and ill go through the roof if Randle is logging 35 minutes a game while topping gets 12 and Thibs feeds us lines about vets.
Toppin can be an 18 ppg scorer next year
They pass on Bane and Flynn at 23. I'd take them both over Anthony.