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How much does an identity cost? Long...

BelieveJJ : 11/19/2020 9:56 am
This forum has discussed the possibility of extending the contracts of either or both of their two top DL, Williams and Tomlinson, over several threads already, and we have pretty much covered the contracts awarded to the comparable players to Leonard and Dalvin, and it seems likely the cost of each will be about 17-18 mil annually for LW, and 12-13 mil per year for DT.

Roughly a 30 mil per year total to keep both of them.

Lots of folks here think thats way too much money to invest in two interior DL who are viewed as great assets vs the run, but only limited assets vs the passing game, since neither is a pass rushing wiz.

But watching the last video of sights and sounds from the Giants' victory over the dreaded Eagles, it struck me that it's it the DL, led by these two guys and youngster Dexter Lawrence, that forms the heart and soul and perhaps even more importantly, the identity, of these 2020 Giants.

Those 3 players are tasked with controlling and defeating all 5 members of the opponents' OL, and they do exactly that with tremendous consistency. They very rarely give up an inch of territory, even quite frequently flat out defeating other teams attempts to double team both of them. They don't give ground, and they often reset the LoS 1-2 yards backwards into the opposing offenses' backfields. Lawrence too. Williams is the prize athlete of the trio, almost cat like in his agility for a 300+# human, and Tomlinson is an immovable boulder of a man who plays with excellent leverage and technique at the nose. His previous excellence in wrestling is fairly evident in his dominance of leverage. I am struck by how often he simply bulled the Eagles All Pro OC Kelce back two or 3 yards into Foles' lap.

You see Williams and Lawrence doing the exact same thing when doubleteams are aimed at them. Each of these 3 guys is capable of manhandling not just head on head blockers, but doubleteams, by themselves.

Together they establish a new LOS. I've heard them referred to as "that brick wall of a DL Gettleman has put together" by opposing HCs.

So the stout DL of Tomlinson, Lawrence and Williams with productive subs Hill and Johnson form, IMO, the core identity of this team...


What is it worth to keep it intact?

(BTW, I don't view Hill or Johnson as anyrhing more than generic replacement parts... Although they've played very well, too.)



I am for keeping both, if possible,  
section125 : 11/19/2020 10:03 am : link
too.
I do not think DT is getting $12 to $13 mill. It will be a depressed market because of the CAP reduction. Not sure what LW will get either, but he will probably get decent money close to what you say or a little less. Until we see who is coming into FA and see what the competition is, it will be difficult to guess.
125 I agree it's near impossible to figure in the  
BelieveJJ : 11/19/2020 10:16 am : link
effect of a shrunk cap in 2021.

My figures above are based on current comparable DL contracts, negotiated when the cap was expanding year over year.
Put the transtion tag on LW and match whatever he gets  
George from PA : 11/19/2020 10:25 am : link
LW is a very good pass rushing DT....his only problem is...he is not Aaron Donald. They can call holding on every play.

LW and DL are special....keep both at all costs.

I feel Tomilinson is a nice to keep but a benefactor of playing with DL and LW....if they can resign great. Maybe a shortterm 2 year deal.
Hopefully they are working a contract extension as we speak  
rasbutant : 11/19/2020 10:33 am : link
Bye week is a good time to do it as any.
Damn, I thought this thread  
allstarjim : 11/19/2020 12:39 pm : link
would be helpful in faking your own death.
The only concern with signing both Williams and Tomlinson  
kdog77 : 11/19/2020 1:54 pm : link
Is that it will eat up the entire cap space the Giants are projected to have in 2021 (currently $23M) and limit potential investments at other areas where the Giants need to improve, notably WR and CB. The Giants can increase the total cap space by cutting some higher priced vets (Tate, Solder, Zeitler, Mayo) and some backups (McIntosh, Toilolo), but it might not be enough to sign both of those guys, Logan Ryan and another FA stud at WR or DB.

IMHO, I think the Giants should extend Tomlinson before FA and then let LW test the market. If he can find another team willing to pay +$18M/year, then more power to him, but they really need to avoid negotiating against themselves by putting any kind of tag on him. The Giants DL will be fine without him.
RE: Damn, I thought this thread  
BelieveJJ : 11/19/2020 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15051356 allstarjim said:
Quote:
would be helpful in faking your own death.


Well, if you would answer the question in the OP, it would be!
That brick wall of a DL Gettleman has put together  
LBH15 : 11/19/2020 4:11 pm : link
got shoved around pretty well by the Eagles zone run blocking scheme last Sunday. To the tune of 150+ yards on only about 20 carries. Just sayin'.

The money all these DTs will be looking for doesn't compute based upon how you are best served to construct a roster and, more specifically, a defensive line. The team needs speed and talent off the edge far more. And even if that isn't readily available this offseason, loading up salaries to mostly run-stopping DTs this offseason because they are playing well doesn't make it a good investment for the future.
RE: That brick wall of a DL Gettleman has put together  
Angel Eyes : 11/19/2020 4:50 pm : link
In comment 15051567 LBH15 said:
Quote:
got shoved around pretty well by the Eagles zone run blocking scheme last Sunday. To the tune of 150+ yards on only about 20 carries. Just sayin'.

The money all these DTs will be looking for doesn't compute based upon how you are best served to construct a roster and, more specifically, a defensive line. The team needs speed and talent off the edge far more. And even if that isn't readily available this offseason, loading up salaries to mostly run-stopping DTs this offseason because they are playing well doesn't make it a good investment for the future.

So why does Gettleman think the Giants can win with just a run-stuffing DL?
Sometimes the narrative doesn't suit reality.  
mittenedman : 11/19/2020 5:26 pm : link
The Giants are 7th in the NFL in sacks. That's pretty good for not having any pass rushers.
RE: RE: That brick wall of a DL Gettleman has put together  
LBH15 : 11/19/2020 5:33 pm : link
In comment 15051604 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15051567 LBH15 said:


Quote:


got shoved around pretty well by the Eagles zone run blocking scheme last Sunday. To the tune of 150+ yards on only about 20 carries. Just sayin'.

The money all these DTs will be looking for doesn't compute based upon how you are best served to construct a roster and, more specifically, a defensive line. The team needs speed and talent off the edge far more. And even if that isn't readily available this offseason, loading up salaries to mostly run-stopping DTs this offseason because they are playing well doesn't make it a good investment for the future.


So why does Gettleman think the Giants can win with just a run-stuffing DL?


I guess that would depend on what you are truly trying to win.
RE: Sometimes the narrative doesn't suit reality.  
LBH15 : 11/19/2020 5:40 pm : link
In comment 15051626 mittenedman said:
Quote:
The Giants are 7th in the NFL in sacks. That's pretty good for not having any pass rushers.


They really have done a nice job manufacturing pressures/sacks with the talent they have. Kudos to coaches.

Are you suggesting the 7th in sacks means the Giants don't need better Edge Rushers as part of your narrative?
RE: I am for keeping both, if possible,  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2020 6:09 pm : link
In comment 15051204 section125 said:
Quote:
too.
I do not think DT is getting $12 to $13 mill. It will be a depressed market because of the CAP reduction. Not sure what LW will get either, but he will probably get decent money close to what you say or a little less. Until we see who is coming into FA and see what the competition is, it will be difficult to guess.

If he gets less because of the cap decreasing, that's not a bargain. It's all relative - the percentage of the cap is really the guiding value. You can bet that agents will be looking for somewhat backloaded contracts that contain guaranteed money into the years where the cap is projected to rebound. The AAV may look a little more favorable because of the reduced cap, but it won't free up any true space to add other players than it would have otherwise.
Overvalued  
Dragon : 11/19/2020 8:42 pm : link
As you said they can’t get to the QB it’s a passing league you can maybe get by with guy with no pass rush but two out of three is an absolute waste. Look Williams got his yes your stupid Giants big pay day would you ask for less and has he proven to be worth that he’ll no. Thomlinson has proven to be a stout guy against the run but once again that’s just not enough to spend big bucks on when you can get three guys with maybe not as good a run defender but much better pass pressure. This is not a team one or twenty players away this is a very limited talent base team on both sides of the ball.
RE: The only concern with signing both Williams and Tomlinson  
Prude : 11/20/2020 12:40 am : link
In comment 15051448 kdog77 said:
Quote:
Is that it will eat up the entire cap space the Giants are projected to have in 2021 (currently $23M) and limit potential investments at other areas where the Giants need to improve, notably WR and CB. The Giants can increase the total cap space by cutting some higher priced vets (Tate, Solder, Zeitler, Mayo) and some backups (McIntosh, Toilolo), but it might not be enough to sign both of those guys, Logan Ryan and another FA stud at WR or DB.

IMHO, I think the Giants should extend Tomlinson before FA and then let LW test the market. If he can find another team willing to pay +$18M/year, then more power to him, but they really need to avoid negotiating against themselves by putting any kind of tag on him. The Giants DL will be fine without him.


2021 is a bit tight but we are going into 2022 with a qb and an entire offensive line on rookie contracts. There is for sure a way to keep both with a little creativity in contract structures.
RE: Put the transtion tag on LW and match whatever he gets  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2020 9:18 am : link
In comment 15051218 George from PA said:
Quote:
LW is a very good pass rushing DT....his only problem is...he is not Aaron Donald. They can call holding on every play.

LW and DL are special....keep both at all costs.

I feel Tomilinson is a nice to keep but a benefactor of playing with DL and LW....if they can resign great. Maybe a shortterm 2 year deal.

I'm not sure about this, but I feel like you can't use the transition tag on a player who is coming off the franchise tag. Effectively, doing so would reduce his tender salary, which would be a loophole to allow teams to avoid the multiplier effect of consecutive tags on the same player.

Pretty sure it's going to be a regular contract or bust for LW. The franchise tag will be cost-prohibitive to use a 2nd time.
RE: RE: Put the transtion tag on LW and match whatever he gets  
BelieveJJ : 11/21/2020 11:42 pm : link
In comment 15051986 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Quote:

I'm not sure about this, but I feel like you can't use the transition tag on a player who is coming off the franchise tag. Effectively, doing so would reduce his tender salary, which would be a loophole to allow teams to avoid the multiplier effect of consecutive tags on the same player.

Pretty sure it's going to be a regular contract or bust for LW. The franchise tag will be cost-prohibitive to use a 2nd time.


IMO I also think if they tag either one of LW or DT.with the transition tag it would be Dalvin, since he's far likely to receive a considerably lower qualifying offer than LW would.

IMO they either get LW done to a long term deal, or they don't. Typically Gettleman has a fair price in mind he will NOT go beyond.
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