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Why on earth would a potentially elite OL have his technique

Big Blue '56 : 11/20/2020 1:18 pm
tinkered with coming into the pros?

It’s been discussed in reports that Thomas has played much better since he went back to the College techniques that brought him here. Why would they have attempted to change what he was most comfortable and effective with?

I’m not an OL guru and do not wish to come off as naive, but it seems to me, that you would go with Thomas’ strengths, at least initially, and tweak as necessary. It appears that that was not the case. If I’ve misunderstood what has transpired, I’d more than welcome being properly set straight on this.

That’s why DD was brought in  
Dave on the UWS : 11/20/2020 1:29 pm : link
Judge saw Columbo trying to change him too much
You mean like pro golfers that have won Majors  
Racer : 11/20/2020 1:30 pm : link
and embarked on a complete rebuild on their swing? You can't logic your way through athletes and coaches. Lot's of ego and 'we're going to do it my way' going on there.
Here's another example....what the NY Mets did to Mike Pelfrey  
No Where Man : 11/20/2020 1:38 pm : link
..
because the pros are a different animal  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 11/20/2020 1:39 pm : link
Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).
RE: Here's another example....what the NY Mets did to Mike Pelfrey  
jpkmets : 11/20/2020 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15052294 No Where Man said:
Quote:
..


or when they asked Dwight Gooden to adopt a slide step

or when they tried to change the way Jose Reyes' ran.

RE: You mean like pro golfers that have won Majors  
81_Great_Dane : 11/20/2020 1:51 pm : link
In comment 15052290 Racer said:
Quote:
and embarked on a complete rebuild on their swing? You can't logic your way through athletes and coaches. Lot's of ego and 'we're going to do it my way' going on there.
This was my thought. If there's a flaw in your technique, and you can improve, you do it, even knowing your performance is going to dip for a while while you assimilate the new technique. Short-term pain, long-term gain.
RE: because the pros are a different animal  
Big Blue '56 : 11/20/2020 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).


Hey Osi. Hope you and yours are well and safe. Can’t disagree with your post, but how bad could his technique have been for the pro level if he was drafted 4th overall? Wouldn’t you wait to see how he fares with his “college” techniques in the pros and THEN hone as necessary? Just askin’
RE: RE: Here's another example....what the NY Mets did to Mike Pelfrey  
moze1021 : 11/20/2020 2:03 pm : link
In comment 15052298 jpkmets said:
Quote:
In comment 15052294 No Where Man said:


Quote:


..



or when they asked Dwight Gooden to adopt a slide step

or when they tried to change the way Jose Reyes' ran.


Pelfrey could have (should have) been Halladay 2.0. Criminal.

Jose at least recovered and was on a HoF track until they let him walk to the Marlins for nothing.

Gooden... other "stuff" was going on but, yeah, they messed with him too.


On the flip side, sometimes coaches CAN turn guys from solid into stars by making little tweaks (eg. Daniel Murphy)
RE: RE: Here's another example....what the NY Mets did to Mike Pelfrey  
Everyone Relax : 11/20/2020 2:12 pm : link
In comment 15052298 jpkmets said:
Quote:
In comment 15052294 No Where Man said:


Quote:


..



or when they asked Dwight Gooden to adopt a slide step

or when they tried to change the way Jose Reyes' ran.

This was the BC (before Cohen) part of Mets history. Never more
RE: RE: because the pros are a different animal  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 11/20/2020 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15052323 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).



Hey Osi. Hope you and yours are well and safe. Can’t disagree with your post, but how bad could his technique have been for the pro level if he was drafted 4th overall? Wouldn’t you wait to see how he fares with his “college” techniques in the pros and THEN hone as necessary? Just askin’


I'm doing good, I hope everything is good with you and your family as well.

I don't think it's necessarily that Thomas' college technique was viewed as "bad", just simply that the Giants coaches thought there were certain flaws in it that could be exploited by the significantly more athletic, stronger, and smarter athletes/schemes he'd be facing in the NFL. I'm not enough of an expert on OL technique to speak specifically on Thomas' situation and to what extent Thomas' technique was changed, but this is something you see across sports fairly often even when it comes to top picks.

If the coaches believe there is a potential flaw in a rookies technique, they aren't going to wait to find out if it exists. They're going to try and clean it up from Day 1, so that he has more time to adjust to the new technique. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Aaron Rodgers is an example of a player who had his entire throwing mechanics completely revamped when he entered the league despite being a 1st round pick who was in the conversation for the #1 overall pick. It ended up working beautifully for the Packers as he turned into one of the best pure passers the league has ever seen. I believe Mahomes is another guy whose technique was cleaned up significantly in the pros. Sometimes these changes work, sometimes they don't. You just have to trust the coaching staff and hope they're doing the right thing.
RE: RE: RE: because the pros are a different animal  
Big Blue '56 : 11/20/2020 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15052339 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
In comment 15052323 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).



Hey Osi. Hope you and yours are well and safe. Can’t disagree with your post, but how bad could his technique have been for the pro level if he was drafted 4th overall? Wouldn’t you wait to see how he fares with his “college” techniques in the pros and THEN hone as necessary? Just askin’



I'm doing good, I hope everything is good with you and your family as well.

I don't think it's necessarily that Thomas' college technique was viewed as "bad", just simply that the Giants coaches thought there were certain flaws in it that could be exploited by the significantly more athletic, stronger, and smarter athletes/schemes he'd be facing in the NFL. I'm not enough of an expert on OL technique to speak specifically on Thomas' situation and to what extent Thomas' technique was changed, but this is something you see across sports fairly often even when it comes to top picks.

If the coaches believe there is a potential flaw in a rookies technique, they aren't going to wait to find out if it exists. They're going to try and clean it up from Day 1, so that he has more time to adjust to the new technique. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Aaron Rodgers is an example of a player who had his entire throwing mechanics completely revamped when he entered the league despite being a 1st round pick who was in the conversation for the #1 overall pick. It ended up working beautifully for the Packers as he turned into one of the best pure passers the league has ever seen. I believe Mahomes is another guy whose technique was cleaned up significantly in the pros. Sometimes these changes work, sometimes they don't. You just have to trust the coaching staff and hope they're doing the right thing.


Makes sense from that perspective and why I asked. Thanks.
RE: RE: because the pros are a different animal  
GMen72 : 11/20/2020 2:26 pm : link
In comment 15052323 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).



Hey Osi. Hope you and yours are well and safe. Can’t disagree with your post, but how bad could his technique have been for the pro level if he was drafted 4th overall? Wouldn’t you wait to see how he fares with his “college” techniques in the pros and THEN hone as necessary? Just askin’


Think about it this way...in his entire college career, Thomas MIGHT have played 2-3 DEs that will make any significant contributions in the NFL (not even talking about elite players). So, him being the alpha in every game could allow him to use subpar technique and still get the job done. It's the reason the 1st round bust rate is 50%.

The argument that nobody improves, or changes, after college is silly. Hell, Von Miller hosts a DE camp every offseason where DEs meet and discuss different techniques and improve.

Lastly, the difference between the college game and professional sports in any major sport is HUGE! Everyone has to improve to be one of the best in the game...it's the reason lazy guys don't last.
Sy’56’s Pre-Draft review of Andrew Thomas  
90.Cal : 11/20/2020 2:36 pm : link
Was absolutely excellent. Kudos to him. His review of the top 4 OT’s actually deserves props.
RE: because the pros are a different animal  
bw in dc : 11/20/2020 2:42 pm : link
In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).


This is a very solid post.

Joey in Va made a really good point a few weeks ago. He pointed as that Thomas really wasn't facing at high level pass rushers his last year at Georgia. It was a down year for SEC rushers. So he could sort of get away with this over-blown "Georgia technique".

Now that Thomas is in the pros, he's seeing more quality - speed, technique, size, etc - and he really struggled. So tinkering with his technique made a lot of sense to me...
Having not followed college football,  
Big Blue '56 : 11/20/2020 2:56 pm : link
I would have no idea who AT faced and his level of competition..I would have thought that an OL who taken 4th in the entire draft (first OL off the board), would have been deemed advanced enough to have his flaws be rather limited. It appears that I was incorrect and again, why I asked for input.
RE: RE: because the pros are a different animal  
Spider56 : 11/20/2020 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15052362 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).



This is a very solid post.

Joey in Va made a really good point a few weeks ago. He pointed as that Thomas really wasn't facing at high level pass rushers his last year at Georgia. It was a down year for SEC rushers. So he could sort of get away with this over-blown "Georgia technique".

Now that Thomas is in the pros, he's seeing more quality - speed, technique, size, etc - and he really struggled. So tinkering with his technique made a lot of sense to me...


In 2018, AT started 13 games at LT and was named to the SI All America 1st team. I think he faced some pretty good guys in the SEC throughout his career.
I'll never forgive the Yankees for screwing around with Phil Hughes  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2020 3:17 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: because the pros are a different animal  
bw in dc : 11/20/2020 3:34 pm : link
In comment 15052405 Spider56 said:
Quote:


In 2018, AT started 13 games at LT and was named to the SI All America 1st team. I think he faced some pretty good guys in the SEC throughout his career.


But 2019 was not banner year for pass rushers in the SEC. I know 2018 - Allen, Sweat, etc - was certainly better but don't recall if Thomas has 1x1 match-ups with guys like Allen, Sweat, etc.
AT's college warts  
JonC : 11/20/2020 3:39 pm : link
have been spotted during his pro start, not surprisingly. Struggling to maintain his footwork and technique versus speed rushers was there to see in his college film. "Elite" is not accurate, though he probably was the best pure LT in the draft in terms of potential. That said, he's got plenty of talent to work with and has responded when times get tough.

Hopefully, the Judge stuff is overblown about him changing stuff and the OL not understanding the situation.

In particular, his run blocking is really good at times  
JonC : 11/20/2020 3:41 pm : link
often seeing him getting excellent movement on his man and surging into the second level to hit another defender. Looks like he's having fun in the run game when they've got a rhythm.
RE: In particular, his run blocking is really good at times  
Big Blue '56 : 11/20/2020 3:55 pm : link
In comment 15052464 JonC said:
Quote:
often seeing him getting excellent movement on his man and surging into the second level to hit another defender. Looks like he's having fun in the run game when they've got a rhythm.


Peart as a future long-termer iyo?
I like him  
JonC : 11/20/2020 4:13 pm : link
very athletic, works harder, packing on some lbs already.
Columbo is probably a really good coach, i bet players love him  
rasbutant : 11/20/2020 4:38 pm : link
and the players love seeing him act out the drills. He played the position and did it very well for a long time in this league.

However, if he and judge aren't on the same page and driving in the same direction, then their marriage isn't a happy one and should be ended. I see no need to bad-mouth Columbo, there are two sides to every story, but quite frankly i don't care what Columbo side is. You are either with me or against me...as the old saying goes.
RE: because the pros are a different animal  
LBH15 : 11/20/2020 5:02 pm : link
In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Tons of great college athletes in all sports get by on mediocre technique simply because they are significantly more gifted than their opponents. But the level of competition in the NFL (or any major pro sports league) is such a jump up that those guys can't just out-talent their opponent anymore. Even backup DLineman used to be beastly college players.

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).


Good post. Thomas was a top-notch tackle for SEC standards but he had some pass pro habits that needed improvement. NFL standards will expose that very quickly, particularly in a year with less practice time/preseason reps etc.

I think too much is being made of the "going back to what worked in college" crap. The statement has no specifics and little credibility since most, if not all, of the pre-draft reviews on Thomas indicated he needed to shore up his pass pro techniques. BBI only remembers the often-mentioned statement that he is "the most pro-ready LT" and just assumes he is heading to the Pro Bowl.

Thomas has a ton of talent and promise, and needs some development too. And hopefully he is getting the right coaching to get that best out of him.

Case closed.
well you don't have to go  
Enzo : 11/20/2020 6:10 pm : link
back very far to find one of our own guys (Flowers) who was taken high in the draft yet needed a TON of help with this technique coming out of college.
RE: well you don't have to go  
Big Blue '56 : 11/20/2020 6:44 pm : link
In comment 15052579 Enzo said:
Quote:
back very far to find one of our own guys (Flowers) who was taken high in the draft yet needed a TON of help with this technique coming out of college.


True, but iirc, he was considered a reach where we took him (9th?) and a project to boot. AT was considered the most NFL ready I believe and the first OL off the board.
Seems like confirmation bias or a silly question at best  
JesseS : 11/20/2020 7:42 pm : link
That’s like saying anyone with natural talent doesn’t need refinement. That’s why there is scouting, coaching etc. I can just as easily see it the other way around if he struggled but used his old technique. “Why would you think that technique a guy got by with against college players would work in the NFL?”
The scap heap is littered with "potentially" elite tackles  
WillieYoung : 11/21/2020 11:30 am : link
whose college technique didn't play in the NFL.
RE: because the pros are a different animal  
Chocco : 11/21/2020 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15052297 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:

There's nothing bad about trying to revamp Thomas' technique if you felt like he would have trouble reaching his full potential in the NFL without doing so. In Thomas' case, it didn't seem to be working for him but a revamped technique has also helped other players exceed expectations. You just don't know how it will affect certain players. The key is to make sure your approach to revamping their technique isn't too rigid and that you can admit it's not working if that's the case (which the Giants have done).

Very true. A good O-line coach or coach in general has to balance the skills and abilities of a player with the proper technique. There isn't one correct technique. What works well for one player may not for another. However there are some flaws that will absolutely be exploited with tougher competition and addressing it is paramount to a players success.
Lonzo Ball  
CT Charlie : 11/22/2020 8:55 am : link
comes to mind.

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