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ryan dunleavy ny post on columbo/judge

Hilary : 11/21/2020 6:30 am
I would say 3 things

Columbo had line improving.

A 3 and 7 team needs to evaluate the talent on the bench. They have to know what Peart can do and whether they need to bring Zeitler back next year.

A position coach or coordinator has to be willing to take direction from the head coach
Link - ( New Window )
According to most accounts  
Gman11 : 11/21/2020 6:58 am : link
Judge had to step in to coach the OL. So, maybe it was Judge and not Columbo that was the reason for the improvement.
Well  
Spider43 : 11/21/2020 7:29 am : link
We'll see how it shakes out in the coming weeks. It is Judge's prerogative to do things his way. But two things we can also glean, he's a bit of a control freak and he may also be thin skinned. As HC you'll need to learn how to delegate in this league, eventually.
Insubordination on a team?  
trueblueinpw : 11/21/2020 7:38 am : link
You just can’t allow that under any circumstances. I have zero problem with what Judge did. Colombo sounds like an asshole and a freelancer and a moron.
RE: Well  
robbieballs2003 : 11/21/2020 7:50 am : link
In comment 15052836 Spider43 said:
Quote:
We'll see how it shakes out in the coming weeks. It is Judge's prerogative to do things his way. But two things we can also glean, he's a bit of a control freak and he may also be thin skinned. As HC you'll need to learn how to delegate in this league, eventually.


Huh, what are you talking about? Does he not have a DC that is bringing in his own system? Did he not bring in an OC that has his own system? Has he not kept our ST coach in place even though that is Judge's specialty? Did he not say numerous times that he will let his coordinators call plays and not override them? So, because he didn't like what he saw from the OL group that means he doesn't delegate?
As the article says  
fkap : 11/21/2020 7:53 am : link
there are multiple ways to look at any situation.

Was the micromanaging warranted?

Most of us hate when a boss micromanages our area of expertise.

Tis a fine line between asserting one's belief and insubordination. I don't want a gutless yes man, but I also don't want someone unwilling to see a different viewpoint.

Rotation sounds great, but ya gotta figure it's not the norm for a reason. As pointed out, rotation was down the last 2 weeks.

The article paints a picture of a difference in personalities, with Columbo sticking up for his beliefs, not one of Judge taking over coaching duties (I've got a feeling that notion is taking on a life of its own, far out of proportion with reality-because of one known incident with Gates, Judge will now get full credit for G's stellar advancement)
As this unfolds  
Biteymax22 : 11/21/2020 8:45 am : link
Its sounding more and more like Columbo and Judge are both the types that want to do things “their way” and will fight you on that. Not the drama some of the writers are making. 2 stubborn adults wanting to do things their own way.

Unfortunately for Columbo, Judge is the head coach and not him. You can’t have an assistant out there giving a different message than a head coach. Even if players like the assistant, it eventually becomes toxic for the team.

So, the disappearance of Peart and Hernandez last week  
BillT : 11/21/2020 9:20 am : link
Was Columbo not implementing Judge’s plan with the OL. The head coach has the final decision on how he wants his personnel used. I’m sure Columbo had his reasons but you can’t just ignore your bosse’s orders. We’d all have been fired if we did the same thing.
A comment on ‘player rotation’ vs ‘fixed positions’ on the OL...  
Spider56 : 11/21/2020 9:24 am : link
This point could be a microcosm of the whole argument ... The assistant coach believes fixed positions is the best way to get communications and cohesiveness, and optimum line play. In normal circumstances he’s probably right .... but this is a narrow view he’s allowed to have. The head coach sees the big picture. In this covid year, the team needs flexibility and options to have guys step in anywhere to protect against injury and infection. He also needs to see development across all the young guys as the team will need to make decisions about Zeitler and Fleming at the end of the year. It’s perfectly logical to see the 2 views but in this case, the HC is correct.
You guys are doing cartwheels and somersaults to  
HomerJones45 : 11/21/2020 9:54 am : link
defend Judge.

It was not well-handled from the word go. Hopefully it all works out.
RE: You guys are doing cartwheels and somersaults to  
UConn4523 : 11/21/2020 10:03 am : link
In comment 15052897 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
defend Judge.

It was not well-handled from the word go. Hopefully it all works out.


Where were you on the Stapleton thread? How interesting.

If anyone isn't being objective its you. You are all over every Judge thread except the one that sounds the most reasonable/likely to be true. That isn't coincidence.

"When Colombo reacted the way he did Tuesday night after Judge told him of the plan to bring Dave DeGuglielmo onto the staff, Judge decided that was the breaking point and made the change. (5/5)"

You keep saying Judge didn't tell Colombo and the above (if true) completely debunks that.
For me this just sounds like  
Bob from Massachusetts : 11/21/2020 10:05 am : link
a difference in philosophy. Neither one has to be right or wrong. But it also sounds like Columbo acted like a bit of a jerk. Even if he's right, ultimately the head coach has the right to do things his way, even if it's a mistake.
RE: You guys are doing cartwheels and somersaults to  
BelieveJJ : 11/21/2020 10:25 am : link
In comment 15052897 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
defend Judge.

It was not well-handled from the word go. Hopefully it all works out.


What exactly was not well handled? Whether its specific technique issues for the center, or the question of rotation among the OL, if Judge wants that implemented its Colombo's job to figure out the best way to accomplish those things.

It simply was never gonna be Colombo's call, unless JJ petmitted it to be Colombo's call. If Colombo really couldn't stand for that, he should have resigned... Then maybe Judge looks like the A-hole.

But we've already got an insider's (BC Eagles) view that Colombo is a DICK, a bully, whatever, and numerous confirmations that Colombo cursed JJ out loudly and confrontationally.

No choice but to can Colombo's ass after that.

Will the OL regress or continue to improve wothout Colombo?

TBD...
Coaches coach, players play  
mittenedman : 11/21/2020 10:29 am : link
I found this line from the article interesting - and I'd bet it has something to do with the firing....

Quote:
Colombo was well-liked by players who see him as one of their own and there is uneasiness exacerbated by the timing of the long bye week and no return to practice until Monday about changes that could be ahead just as things started to click on the line, league sources said.


The happens at companies all across the country. You can't have management being "one of the boys". At they end of the day, the coaches are with the coaches. I can understand Judge having a zero tolerance policy towards that type of behavior and it sounds to me, THAT was at the route of the problems and not the use of profanity.

In Colombo's mind, he's still an Offensive Lineman. He may one day become a good coach if he gets his head straight.

Judge  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 11/21/2020 10:42 am : link
It's your team coach, you're the boss. Bring in your guys and move out those who dont meet the standard or follow directions.

Nice to finally be in a new era!
RE: RE: You guys are doing cartwheels and somersaults to  
ColHowPepper : 11/21/2020 10:44 am : link
In comment 15052903 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15052897 HomerJones45 said:
Quote: defend Judge.
It was not well-handled from the word go. Hopefully it all works out./////////

Where were you on the Stapleton thread? How interesting.

If anyone isn't being objective its you. You are all over every Judge thread except the one that sounds the most reasonable/likely to be true. That isn't coincidence.

"When Colombo reacted the way he did Tuesday night after Judge told him of the plan to bring Dave DeGuglielmo onto the staff, Judge decided that was the breaking point and made the change. (5/5)"

You keep saying Judge didn't tell Colombo and the above (if true) completely debunks that.
UConn, save your breath; Homer hasn't been objective since the day TC was given his walking papers, he still holds a candle for him (and btw, I agree with him it absolutely should have been JR and/or both to have been given the boot that memorable January morning).

I don't know what the takeaway should be re. 'one of the guys' criticism. If they liked Colombo, should him being too close to them (however interpreted) be part of the reasons to fire him? Dunno
Some people  
Big Al : 11/21/2020 10:51 am : link
here need a good first hand dose of how managerial authority works in a real organization of any type.
Offensive line technique so profound...  
ghost718 : 11/21/2020 10:51 am : link
and Un-Patriot like,that Bill Belichick himself,signed me up for the Boston Marathon

Mittendeman  
BelieveJJ : 11/21/2020 10:52 am : link
I'd be leery of this quote from Dunleavy:

Quote:
Quote:
Colombo was well-liked by players who see him as one of their own and there is uneasiness exacerbated by the timing of the long bye week and no return to practice until Monday about changes that could be ahead just as things started to click on the line, league sources said.


"League sources" as opposed to team sources does not give me confidence in the accuracy of the assessment. Also re your point, Judge seems very much to be a "players' coach", even if he's tough and demanding.

I can't agree with your assessment that the firing was based on Colombo being a "players' coach", or "one of the boys." Not at all really, you're way overreaching IMO.
Bottom line,  
smshmth8690 : 11/21/2020 10:54 am : link
Call the boss a c*nt, and you get canned. End of story.
I also buy the players  
UConn4523 : 11/21/2020 10:59 am : link
liking Colombo and Judge. Kind of irrelevant though, Judge should keep under performing coaches on his staff just because the players like him.
RE: Bottom line,  
broadbandz : 11/21/2020 11:19 am : link
In comment 15052941 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
Call the boss a c*nt, and you get canned. End of story.


he was getting canned anyways. Judge made a mistake hiring him and regretted it instantly.

Probably shows that Mara forced Garrett on Judge as well. But if Judge finishes strong he is probably going to take full control of the org. I wouldn't be surprised if Judge fires some of Mara's family members next. They have no football expertise.
My take  
steve in ky : 11/21/2020 11:25 am : link


And assuming this article is accurate I can appreciate Colombo’s frustration because if you are hired to do a job all you really want is to be allowed to do that job to the best you of your ability, and left alone to do just that. The problem though is in how he handled it when it didn’t go that way. Once Judge informed him of his desire to rotate the OL and he couldn’t initially convince Judge for the merits of not doing so he either had to except the challenge and embrace it, or tender his resignation. Fighting with Judge and attempting to show him up by undermining the plan is not how to respond and left Judge with little choice but to fire him.

As to who’s strategy was right who knows? Maybe Columbo’s would be short term, but maybe Judge is looking long term and including other factors into the decision.

The biggest issue, and really this is a failure on Judge’s part, is that all of this should have been discussed and ironed out before Colombo was hired. Of course maybe it was and Colombo just paid him lip service and it all falls back on him. We probably never know.
RE: My take  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 11/21/2020 11:30 am : link
In comment 15052958 steve in ky said:
Quote:


And assuming this article is accurate I can appreciate Colombo’s frustration because if you are hired to do a job all you really want is to be allowed to do that job to the best you of your ability, and left alone to do just that. The problem though is in how he handled it when it didn’t go that way. Once Judge informed him of his desire to rotate the OL and he couldn’t initially convince Judge for the merits of not doing so he either had to except the challenge and embrace it, or tender his resignation. Fighting with Judge and attempting to show him up by undermining the plan is not how to respond and left Judge with little choice but to fire him.

As to who’s strategy was right who knows? Maybe Columbo’s would be short term, but maybe Judge is looking long term and including other factors into the decision.

The biggest issue, and really this is a failure on Judge’s part, is that all of this should have been discussed and ironed out before Colombo was hired. Of course maybe it was and Colombo just paid him lip service and it all falls back on him. We probably never know.


Sh&t happens in business. You make an informed decision and move on.
there's no such thing as micromanaging or being a control freak  
markky : 11/21/2020 11:46 am : link
when you're 3-7. at that point everyone in the organization should expect to have Judge in their shit.
This is something new to me...  
bw in dc : 11/21/2020 1:01 pm : link
Quote:
Judge spoke publicly last week about wanting to rotate three guards the way the Giants had been rotating tackles. Instead, Matt Peart’s snaps at tackle were cut from 24 in back-to-back games to 10 and guard Will Hernandez did not leave the sideline until Kevin Zeitler’s fourth-quarter concussion.

The result — the Giants’ best offensive line performance of the season in a 27-17 victory — was interpreted two very different ways: As proof that sticking with starters through struggles will reap rewards, and as defiance of instruction.


So Judge was pushing for more combinations and Colombo wanted to stick with a consistent five. That was a question I raised earlier in the week - who wanted to rotate more players? This answers that.

But Colombo’s approach worked very well against Philly. Yet, he may have defied Judge’s direct orders.

That’s a real impasse. Colombo basically declared mutiny. He was going to do it his way...regardless.

While his philosophy may be right, Colombo really forced Judge’s hand here. And it’s clear Colombo had little to no respect for Judge. That’s
just poison for an organization...
I have no idea why this situation keeps getting debated  
montanagiant : 11/21/2020 1:13 pm : link
First off, Columbo should have never told Gates to ignore Judge's instructions in front of everyone.

Secondly, as a position coach, you do what is told by the HC. If he says rotate, you rotate the players as specified.

Thirdly, call your boss a C**t and you should be canned.

Everything else is nothing but fluff and BS outside of those three aspects. IMO Colombo was lucky he lasted this long. There is not a team in the NFL that allows a position coach to go off of the script decided by the HC and Coordinators above him.
Colombo - And the Aftermath  
Scott in Seattle : 11/21/2020 3:06 pm : link
You have to wonder, based on what transpired, if Colombo will ever get another chance. It's one thing to have a temper, but to curse out your boss and possibly (who knows if it's true) become violent over it? That's really makes you toxic to any potential employer.

It's not like an everyday job where you can just hide it, move on, and likely not have anyone ever find out. With Colombo, it's right out there in the public domain. It's going to be a hard sell to get around this.
RE: My take  
Scuzzlebutt : 11/21/2020 8:40 pm : link
In comment 15052958 steve in ky said:
Quote:


And assuming this article is accurate I can appreciate Colombo’s frustration because if you are hired to do a job all you really want is to be allowed to do that job to the best you of your ability, and left alone to do just that. The problem though is in how he handled it when it didn’t go that way. Once Judge informed him of his desire to rotate the OL and he couldn’t initially convince Judge for the merits of not doing so he either had to except the challenge and embrace it, or tender his resignation. Fighting with Judge and attempting to show him up by undermining the plan is not how to respond and left Judge with little choice but to fire him.

As to who’s strategy was right who knows? Maybe Columbo’s would be short term, but maybe Judge is looking long term and including other factors into the decision.

The biggest issue, and really this is a failure on Judge’s part, is that all of this should have been discussed and ironed out before Colombo was hired. Of course maybe it was and Colombo just paid him lip service and it all falls back on him. We probably never know.


I mostly agree, but they shouldn’t really need to discuss the strategy of rotating players. Judge is the boss and if he wants a rotation that is what you do. Coach the OL and execute the HC’s strategy - end of story.
Dont understand all the love for  
SleepyOwl : 11/21/2020 8:59 pm : link
Colombo.. Line looked worse than last year through first five games with a stud rookie LT looking lost in space. Judge steps in inserts Peart BBI goes wild... Judge changes the pass protection scheme to double team heavy and stops using the idiotic slide protection Colombo installed. Viola guys look outstanding and the rookie LT is left to do what he does best go 1 on 1 on an island. Hip Hip Hooray coach Joe Judge.
RE: As the article says  
Red Right Hand : 11/21/2020 10:39 pm : link
In comment 15052848 fkap said:
Quote:
there are multiple ways to look at any situation.

Was the micromanaging warranted?

Most of us hate when a boss micromanages our area of expertise.

Tis a fine line between asserting one's belief and insubordination. I don't want a gutless yes man, but I also don't want someone unwilling to see a different viewpoint.

Rotation sounds great, but ya gotta figure it's not the norm for a reason. As pointed out, rotation was down the last 2 weeks.

The article paints a picture of a difference in personalities, with Columbo sticking up for his beliefs, not one of Judge taking over coaching duties (I've got a feeling that notion is taking on a life of its own, far out of proportion with reality-because of one known incident with Gates, Judge will now get full credit for G's stellar advancement)
what is amazing to me is the controversy over putting rookies in on tghe O-line this year. Excuse me, is my memory wrong, or have we not been bitching, this whole forum, for YEARS about " obstinate head coaches who don't trust rookies and won't give them a chance. Haven't we had countless threads about how wee need to get a look at the new guys ( especially when we were in losing seasons and beyond realistic contention for a playoff spot) before the season end so we have some idea what they are capabler of? haven't we been lamenting for ages about rookies not getting a proper look, talk about obstinate coaches won't try any new personell, blah blah blah, and when we get someone who DOES do what we've been demanding for years,we want to second guess that also and trot out the argument of conservative staid coaches who won't let a noob on the field. Can't have it both ways.
RE: Well  
Red Right Hand : 11/21/2020 10:42 pm : link
In comment 15052836 Spider43 said:
Quote:
We'll see how it shakes out in the coming weeks. It is Judge's prerogative to do things his way. But two things we can also glean, he's a bit of a control freak and he may also be thin skinned. As HC you'll need to learn how to delegate in this league, eventually.
Really? so if he micromanages out his ass and we go 11-5 next year that's a problem? Only problem if the Win loss record. If we were winning no one, and i mean no one will give 2 shits about what he does or doesn't micromanage. what matters is results, there are many paths to results, and all else is bullshit, just like any business. The bottom line is what matters, not whether or not he micromanages or is thin skinned.
RE: You guys are doing cartwheels and somersaults to  
Red Right Hand : 11/21/2020 10:45 pm : link
In comment 15052897 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
defend Judge.

It was not well-handled from the word go. Hopefully it all works out.
Colombo is gone, he needed to be, shat's not to like?
It’s going to be interesting to hear Garrett’s comments on this  
Bill L : 11/21/2020 10:46 pm : link
I wonder how strongly his wagon was hitched to Colombo. I wouldn’t have thought he would stay here for next season anyway because he will likelylook to be a HC, but this may also play into that.
RE: You guys are doing cartwheels and somersaults to  
AcesUp : 11/22/2020 12:06 am : link
In comment 15052897 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
defend Judge.

It was not well-handled from the word go. Hopefully it all works out.


I like Judge so far but I don’t know how this doesn’t raise a flag. I’m not buying Judge being able to singlehandedly turn around the OL in a couple of weeks with a little input in practice. So we’re reshuffling the coaching staff mid season on a unit that is improving? If Columbo was never really his guy then why was he hired to start?
RE: RE: You guys are doing cartwheels and somersaults to  
BlackLight : 11/22/2020 2:15 am : link
In comment 15053432 AcesUp said:
Quote:

I like Judge so far but I don’t know how this doesn’t raise a flag. I’m not buying Judge being able to singlehandedly turn around the OL in a couple of weeks with a little input in practice. So we’re reshuffling the coaching staff mid season on a unit that is improving? If Columbo was never really his guy then why was he hired to start?


He was hired because Garrett beat the drum for it, and Judge deferred to him. And the logic was sound enough. But the line just wasn't doing very well until a couple weeks ago, about the time that Judge started getting more hands-on in his coaching. I'm a little skeptical too - it seems a bit too neat and clean as an explanation. But all we can do is evaluate the on-field product, then and now. Thomas, in particular, seems to have improved. And against two teams (Washington and Philly) who are no slouches in the DL department.
RE: I have no idea why this situation keeps getting debated  
islander1 : 11/22/2020 2:41 am : link
In comment 15053035 montanagiant said:
Quote:
First off, Columbo should have never told Gates to ignore Judge's instructions in front of everyone.

Secondly, as a position coach, you do what is told by the HC. If he says rotate, you rotate the players as specified.

Thirdly, call your boss a C**t and you should be canned.

Everything else is nothing but fluff and BS outside of those three aspects. IMO Colombo was lucky he lasted this long. There is not a team in the NFL that allows a position coach to go off of the script decided by the HC and Coordinators above him.


Yeah, I really am blown away by how many folks are hyper-analyzing this.

Joe Judge is the head coach. If he says "jump", you jump.
I recognize Columbo's responsible for his OLine, but Judge is responsible for the entire team.

It's not an easy position to be in, but it's not like Columbo's a newbie. It's almost like he thought he could do whatever he wanted because Garrett - the 10 year Cowboys HC/now OC, was his boy.
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