This is the offseason where Barkley would expect to get paid. Zeke, McCaffrey and Kamara all signed their second contracts after their third season. The Giants can kick the can down the road by picking up his fifth year option, with the argument that they need to see how he recovers, but then you risk a real nasty situation next year if he plays well in 2021.
I think a lot of this depends on who is making the decision. Gettleman is not going to walk away from a guy he drafted second overall. Judge might. A new GM might. Hard to say unless we see a change made, I think that’s unlikely unless they go 2-4 or worse the rest of the way. Even 2-4 might be enough.
I would personally look to move him, curious about the rest of the board. So far we know he’s very talented but really only one spectacular year. 2019 was a disappointment, 2020 a total washout.
It’s a difficult decision but also one of the most important decisions this franchise will face in the near future.
Then decide what to do after that happens. Anything before then is rolling the dice - whether it's extending him or trading him.
By the time that expires, you'd think as a RB he'd be about ready to start the decline.
No need to do anything.
This.
No need to do anything.
Yeah, you let him play the next two years. If he doesn't stay healthy or doesn't look the same, you don't pay him. It's not rocket science. Paying guys like him, Kamara, and CMC, is not the same as paying the rest of the RBs elite money. What they bring to the table offensively is much different.
Let's see him stay healthy and storm through the league. We can tag him after that if we want.
Barkley is not stupid, he knows that he isn't getting a contract extension this offseason because of his knee injury.
I am convinced that Barkley and the Giants will have an agreement where they will offer him a fair extension next season once he proves that he is recovered from the knee injury. It will either happen midseason or after the year unless of course he isn't the same player that he was.
This 👆
This sums it up well.
Think about. It continues to play out where RBs just aren'r productive in the long run.
The OP mentions Zeke, McCaff and Kamara.
Zeke was the bell cow for Dallas. Now he can't outrun LBs, let alone having the gear to get by DBs. Last year, he longest run was 33 yards. This year it's 24 yards. If I'm Dallas, Pollard becomes much more of the feature RB.
McCaff is now experiencing the injury bug. Carolina got cute last year and were hell bent on getting him all of this statistical milestones. Now what? He can't get on the field. And Davis looks pretty decent as his replacement.
Kamara is a very good player, but the Saints smartly limit his touches. He's more of a hybrid guy. And they have smartly distributed almost the same number of carries to Latavius Murray.
Basically, only the Saints are getting a decent ROI on the RB investment.
Paying RBs big money is the height of idiocy. And when you you really analyze it, the big contract is usually based on services rendered and the high production rarely continues...
If he can come back healthy, it will be exciting to see what this staff can do as far as utilizing his strengths. Regardless of the fact that he's 230, utilizing him similar to Kamara with Gallman serving filling the Latavius Murray would be a better use of Barkley's skills, imo. Also haven't seen much of Barkley with above replacement-level run blocking, it would be extremely foolish to trade him now, imo.
Then trade him.
Just curious but are you sure Barks is a leader? This team doesn’t seem to have missed him much. Obviously his big play production, when it occurs, is exciting but is the team really any worse without him? Idk.
And as to “leadership”, I’m not sure the Giants have really missed him at all in that regard. Frankly not sure how important being a good person or leadership really is in the NFL. Look at Mixon, that dude is a total scumbag. Same thing for Hill in KC. I think maybe we like to believe that character counts but I’m not sure it does.
Also, it’s always a little hard to really know about the players character. I used to love rooting for Meggett and LT and those guys are total scumbags. Champions? Yes. Giants? Yes. Scumbags? Absolutely.
None of this is to say Barks isn’t a great guy. As far as any of us know he seems like a terrific young man. But, I don’t think that character is going to figure in to the decision to pick up his 5th year. And it certainly shouldn’t be part of any longer term deal. Just my two pennies.
Running style, carries, hits.
I do think zeke can a 2 more real productive yrs, he is only 25
Oline is poor for cowboys this yr too
New change of scenery maybe?
I would hope saquon shows enough that we can give him an extension that’s reasonable
Also with his Uber freaky talent, I expect him to perform well enough into his late 20’s
Use him like kamara, get him in space a little more. Keep carries 20 or less most games
Playoffs. Run the crap out of him
Give Barkley one more season to prove himself. No 5th year option. That would be hoping to get a cheap extra year out of him before you have to pay him. The options after 2021 will be the same as after 2022 with the 5th year option. If you give him a 5th year option, the odds are pretty good that he will underperform or get hurt in one of those seasons and you will be back in the same situation you are today.
That is a lot of mileage.
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play next year and hope he plays well. Then you try to trade him or cut your losses. Under no circumstance do you invest significant cap $'s to a RB (the same way you don't draft a RB at #2 overall). We already made one mistake, let's not exacerbate it.
This sums it up well.
Think about. It continues to play out where RBs just aren'r productive in the long run.
The OP mentions Zeke, McCaff and Kamara.
Zeke was the bell cow for Dallas. Now he can't outrun LBs, let alone having the gear to get by DBs. Last year, he longest run was 33 yards. This year it's 24 yards. If I'm Dallas, Pollard becomes much more of the feature RB.
McCaff is now experiencing the injury bug. Carolina got cute last year and were hell bent on getting him all of this statistical milestones. Now what? He can't get on the field. And Davis looks pretty decent as his replacement.
Kamara is a very good player, but the Saints smartly limit his touches. He's more of a hybrid guy. And they have smartly distributed almost the same number of carries to Latavius Murray.
Basically, only the Saints are getting a decent ROI on the RB investment.
Paying RBs big money is the height of idiocy. And when you you really analyze it, the big contract is usually based on services rendered and the high production rarely continues...
Zeke isn’t CMC, Kamara, or Barkley. He just barely had breakaway speed when he entered league and his offseason work habits are all over the map. What CMC, Kamara, and Barkley give you is completely different than the more traditional Zeke. Offensively they give you a lot more value because of what they open up. Zekes value is he can be out there all the time. Better to use those guys up for what you can.
Give Barkley one more season to prove himself. No 5th year option. That would be hoping to get a cheap extra year out of him before you have to pay him. The options after 2021 will be the same as after 2022 with the 5th year option. If you give him a 5th year option, the odds are pretty good that he will underperform or get hurt in one of those seasons and you will be back in the same situation you are today.
Football is a team sport. Put those guys in Giants offense and their stats suffer. The big question is how he comes back from this injury and how healthy he stays next two years. If he checks those boxes no reason not to give him a 3 year contract.
Even if he's lost a step, he'll still be the best back in the conference.
Dude is freak athlete, is there really anyone to compare him too? Peterson maybe? I really don't think anyone knows how long he will be effect in this league for.
Let it play out. If he really want a new contract, sign him at any time if the deal is team friendly (meaning they can get out of it a anytime without big dead money hit), the early they do it, the more team friendly it gets. But really what is best for both parties is to just let it play out and take it from there.
Do not trade him at his lowest point....ridiculous suggestion
If you want to use Zeke as a measuring stick for Barkley, note that Zeke is already starting to wear down in year 5 and he doesn't have Barkley's injury history.
Talking about Barkley as part of the long term plan is really premature; putting him in the HOF goes beyond premature and into crazy.
But I just don't think it will.
Just curious but are you sure Barks is a leader? This team doesn’t seem to have missed him much. Obviously his big play production, when it occurs, is exciting but is the team really any worse without him? Idk.
And as to “leadership”, I’m not sure the Giants have really missed him at all in that regard. Frankly not sure how important being a good person or leadership really is in the NFL. Look at Mixon, that dude is a total scumbag. Same thing for Hill in KC. I think maybe we like to believe that character counts but I’m not sure it does.
Also, it’s always a little hard to really know about the players character. I used to love rooting for Meggett and LT and those guys are total scumbags. Champions? Yes. Giants? Yes. Scumbags? Absolutely.
None of this is to say Barks isn’t a great guy. As far as any of us know he seems like a terrific young man. But, I don’t think that character is going to figure in to the decision to pick up his 5th year. And it certainly shouldn’t be part of any longer term deal. Just my two pennies.
Yes he is absolutely a leader as evidenced by him being a team captain for a second year in a row. Even though he is not playing this season he is still around and supporting the team.
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unless his knee injury was more severe than reported and he isn't the same player anymore. Barkley is a team leader and a great kid.
If he can come back healthy, it will be exciting to see what this staff can do as far as utilizing his strengths. Regardless of the fact that he's 230, utilizing him similar to Kamara with Gallman serving filling the Latavius Murray would be a better use of Barkley's skills, imo. Also haven't seen much of Barkley with above replacement-level run blocking, it would be extremely foolish to trade him now, imo.
The last three weeks I've seen the offensive line open big holes where the RB gets 10-12 yards and I am disappointed that Barkley isn't playing because several of those runs would have been long touchdowns. I am very excited to see what he does next season running behind this offensive line.
If you want to use Zeke as a measuring stick for Barkley, note that Zeke is already starting to wear down in year 5 and he doesn't have Barkley's injury history.
Talking about Barkley as part of the long term plan is really premature; putting him in the HOF goes beyond premature and into crazy.
I think #1 speaks more to how Barkley has been used thus far in his career vs. Zeke's pass-catching ability.
I totally agree on points 2 and 3. However, it's also premature to count the kid out. This team severely lacks top end talent and isn't particularly pressed for cap space so let's stop trying to push a 23 year old top 5 draft pick, and 2018 rookie of the year out the door.
Give Barkley one more season to prove himself. No 5th year option. That would be hoping to get a cheap extra year out of him before you have to pay him. The options after 2021 will be the same as after 2022 with the 5th year option. If you give him a 5th year option, the odds are pretty good that he will underperform or get hurt in one of those seasons and you will be back in the same situation you are today.
Year 3 doesn't count as a year, the OL was in flux and he got hurt after what 3 games?
Year 1 he was great
Year 2 he was just as good. He only played 13 games so he just ended up at a little over 1K yards, pretty much the same as 1.3K in 16 games.
Not sure what all of you are looking at.
Keep him, because like others said above selling low makes no sense. But after that it's on him to kick the door down and be what they drafted him to be. If he doesn't do that, trade him.
I don't think he'll be here more than a couple years. Is Judge going to get behind building the offense around one running back? Remember the system he came from in NE...NE is a fantasy football player's nightmare because every week it's a different back doing the work.
In the end I think it will boil down to three things:
1. Drafting a running back that high was a mistake
2. He had bad injury luck
3. When healthy he wasn't as good a player as was sold to the fans
Maybe ask him to cut his weight a bit, run a little lighter/leaner.
That dude had no OL, he was making yardage out of nothing.
I have a dream of watching this OL gel and start to show dominant traits. And then next year bringing in a healthy Barkley. My goodness.
Dude is freak athlete, is there really anyone to compare him too? Peterson maybe? I really don't think anyone knows how long he will be effect in this league for.
Let it play out. If he really want a new contract, sign him at any time if the deal is team friendly (meaning they can get out of it a anytime without big dead money hit), the early they do it, the more team friendly it gets. But really what is best for both parties is to just let it play out and take it from there.
The guy Barkley reminds me of most is Reggie Bush. Both drafted #2 with an insane, impossible to live up to amount of pre draft hype. To my amateur eyes a similar skill set, shifty, speed backs that make crazy cuts and highlight real plays and be very active in the pass game. Reggie Bush had a solid, ok career but nothing that ever came close to the hype (people were proclaiming he was going to be the best of all time before he played a down). Bounced around the league and is never mentioned at all any more and he hasn’t been gone that long.
That dude had no OL, he was making yardage out of nothing.
I have a dream of watching this OL gel and start to show dominant traits. And then next year bringing in a healthy Barkley. My goodness.
If you want to use Zeke as a measuring stick for Barkley, note that Zeke is already starting to wear down in year 5 and he doesn't have Barkley's injury history.
Talking about Barkley as part of the long term plan is really premature; putting him in the HOF goes beyond premature and into crazy.
If you think just looking at stats tells you this story, its unbelievable naive. CMC, Kamara, and Barkley are all guys you can run routes with. Zeke did a ton of damage in the passing game because other teams had to play man and run blitz to stop their all pro offensive line, opening up slip screens for big gains. Cmon man. I think it's way to early to be including Barkley in our long term plans, but you clearly already have your mind made up and are looking for stats to validate that opinion.
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Zeke has the same yards/catch as Barkley - 8.2 - in his 66 career games that Barkley does in his 31. So it's not like there's this great dimension that Barkley brings that Zeke doesn't. If anything, Zeke has brought things Barkley doesn't...availability and an ability to block. Barkley's a liability in the backfield on third down because everyone knows he can't block. Seeing him back there next to the QB is like an invitation to blitz. Saquon can clearly be more available and be a better blocker, but he only looks poor because at his size he should be much better. He shouldn't really be blocking in most sets anyway.
If you want to use Zeke as a measuring stick for Barkley, note that Zeke is already starting to wear down in year 5 and he doesn't have Barkley's injury history.
Talking about Barkley as part of the long term plan is really premature; putting him in the HOF goes beyond premature and into crazy.
If you think just looking at stats tells you this story, its unbelievable naive. CMC, Kamara, and Barkley are all guys you can run routes with. Zeke did a ton of damage in the passing game because other teams had to play man and run blitz to stop their all pro offensive line, opening up slip screens for big gains. Cmon man. I think it's way to early to be including Barkley in our long term plans, but you clearly already have your mind made up and are looking for stats to validate that opinion.
I'd be careful calling anyone naive; you're the one making a case based on...what is it based on?
1. stay healthy
2. learn how to block
3. learn to hit the hole hard. when a rusher broke through our OL this year Barkley would stop dead and look to juke. he needs to run through the first tackle and stop thinking of himself as the next Barry Sanders. the TFLs are drive killers (i know i'll get crap for this point, but go back and watch the first few games before Barkley got hurt).
based on actual production and availability to date there are a lot of former Giant RBs i'd be more comfortable with.
Hopefully he can make it through a full training camp and season with this new regime, just so we can have a better read on his ceiling.
Aside from who it is that makes any decision in the next two years, a factor in SB's future here will be just how proficient our OL becomes. If it remains at 2019 or (early) 2020 proficiency, SB's running style is contra-indicated.
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has a Frank Gore career ahead of him.
Dude is freak athlete, is there really anyone to compare him too? Peterson maybe? I really don't think anyone knows how long he will be effect in this league for.
Let it play out. If he really want a new contract, sign him at any time if the deal is team friendly (meaning they can get out of it a anytime without big dead money hit), the early they do it, the more team friendly it gets. But really what is best for both parties is to just let it play out and take it from there.
The guy Barkley reminds me of most is Reggie Bush. Both drafted #2 with an insane, impossible to live up to amount of pre draft hype. To my amateur eyes a similar skill set, shifty, speed backs that make crazy cuts and highlight real plays and be very active in the pass game. Reggie Bush had a solid, ok career but nothing that ever came close to the hype (people were proclaiming he was going to be the best of all time before he played a down). Bounced around the league and is never mentioned at all any more and he hasn’t been gone that long.
Exactly who I think of. Unfortunately, likely terps is right. He will be best known as a freakish prospect who had his career shortened by injuries and was stuck behind a horrendous offensive that got him banged up prematurely
He needs to work on blitz pickup as many young backs do. He sometimes tries to do too much instead of getting the 3 yards up the gut. Again, a habit a lot of young backs have. We have to watch to see if on the whole that's a pro or con. He also has to learn to pick his spots. Sometimes we just need the 3 yards, sometimes it's OK to bounce outside and try for a bigger play and risk losing 3.
No back behind the OL we've had could do much. Comparisons to other backs without looking at their OL and passing games are not the full picture. That first game this year, they came hunting SB immediately and we had no blocking and no effective answer. If they come down hill like that to SB the play action game should open up. If it's just a jailbreak each time, no O works period.
The only other thing I'll add is that the owners probably have a little more desire to keep SB than fans. He's the face of the franchise and the player that sells more merch and puts more people in stands, and that TV wants to see. He's our only star. Add to that he's a very good person, as opposed to OBJ the prima donna/attention seeker.
Regardless, the outcome is the same - you see how he comes back and take the final year of his contract.
Too many negative or zero yard gains. Should spread him out wide more, like the Rams used to do with M Faulk. They just blitz him on passing downs when he is backfield to force him to stay in and block.
Barkley was getting hit behind the LOS. They were at his knees 2-3 yds behind the chains. He turned -5 yarders into 0 yds with sheer ability.
Try to envision him behind this line, Alfred Morris was getting 10 yds a pop. What would Barkley do? Do you think he'd be getting hit behind the LOS this season?
I love Barkley's talent, and he has been hampered by a bad line, but he still has a lot to do to get in the conversation of the best back in the league. He dances too much and has too many negative runs, and his pass blocking is atrocious.
I am hoping Barkley becomes what we all thought he would when he was drafted, but right now there is very much a Reggie Bush feel to his career.
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In comment 15054975 Go Terps said:
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Zeke has the same yards/catch as Barkley - 8.2 - in his 66 career games that Barkley does in his 31. So it's not like there's this great dimension that Barkley brings that Zeke doesn't. If anything, Zeke has brought things Barkley doesn't...availability and an ability to block. Barkley's a liability in the backfield on third down because everyone knows he can't block. Seeing him back there next to the QB is like an invitation to blitz. Saquon can clearly be more available and be a better blocker, but he only looks poor because at his size he should be much better. He shouldn't really be blocking in most sets anyway.
If you want to use Zeke as a measuring stick for Barkley, note that Zeke is already starting to wear down in year 5 and he doesn't have Barkley's injury history.
Talking about Barkley as part of the long term plan is really premature; putting him in the HOF goes beyond premature and into crazy.
If you think just looking at stats tells you this story, its unbelievable naive. CMC, Kamara, and Barkley are all guys you can run routes with. Zeke did a ton of damage in the passing game because other teams had to play man and run blitz to stop their all pro offensive line, opening up slip screens for big gains. Cmon man. I think it's way to early to be including Barkley in our long term plans, but you clearly already have your mind made up and are looking for stats to validate that opinion.
I'd be careful calling anyone naive; you're the one making a case based on...what is it based on?
What claims am I making? That those 3 and Zeke aren’t the same? Anyone that understands football can you tell you that. Zeke fits the mold of classic bell cow back while the other 3 fit a much different mold. Something fairly new to the game the way it has evolved. Not sure how I can quantify it, but I know what my eyeballs tell me.
but you have people here who felt we should have traded Odell before we signed him and before he stepped on the field immediately after rehabbing an injury.
1. stay healthy
2. learn how to block
3. learn to hit the hole hard. when a rusher broke through our OL this year Barkley would stop dead and look to juke. he needs to run through the first tackle and stop thinking of himself as the next Barry Sanders. the TFLs are drive killers (i know i'll get crap for this point, but go back and watch the first few games before Barkley got hurt).
based on actual production and availability to date there are a lot of former Giant RBs i'd be more comfortable with.
Thank you. The dead stop instead of running right past first guy has been driving me crazy. That and the way he stops in open field when someone tries to tackle him high. Keep your feet moving. These are college RB moves. Does not work at this level.
I thought he would be better getting north-south with hitting holes quicker. Instead of bouncing around and free-lancing. He was basically giving free-lancing rights at PSU under Franklin.
He needs better coaching and discipline with that phase of the game. That's why I think Chubb and Jacobs - two peers - are better. They don't look for style points. They get to the hole and hit it hard.
So there needs to be better balance between hitting holes and free-lancing...
Barkley knows his market value isn't peaked right now. He needs a big year.
I really think the NFL game has messed him up. He's lost a lot of weight, probably realizing he was never going to be a power back and trying to maximize his quickness. You could see the frustration all over his face these last 2 years.
What's the common denominator between running between the tackles and pass blocking? Despite his build, he has no interest in the physical part of the game. I don't see that improving coming off injury either. He already admitted he is not good coming off injuries due to the mental side. ACL is all mental. I'll be rooting for him, but now is not the time for either side to talk contract.
As others have said, don't overspend at the position, but also let's be real, he's an amazing player who would be be great to keep if it can be done at a reasonable cost.
None of us have a clue what he will get in the next contract. Blanket statements about not paying him without knowing the cost don’t make any sense. We don’t have to decide now, there’s really not much else to say about it.
That is a lot of mileage.
We missed the boat on getting a discount after year 3. I think we will definitely pick up his option and from there who knows, too many t factors.
In the end I think it will boil down to three things:
1. Drafting a running back that high was a mistake
2. He had bad injury luck
3. When healthy he wasn't as good a player as was sold to the fans
I disagree on #3. When healthy and with decent blocking Barkley was as advertised.
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has a Frank Gore career ahead of him.
Dude is freak athlete, is there really anyone to compare him too? Peterson maybe? I really don't think anyone knows how long he will be effect in this league for.
Let it play out. If he really want a new contract, sign him at any time if the deal is team friendly (meaning they can get out of it a anytime without big dead money hit), the early they do it, the more team friendly it gets. But really what is best for both parties is to just let it play out and take it from there.
The guy Barkley reminds me of most is Reggie Bush. Both drafted #2 with an insane, impossible to live up to amount of pre draft hype. To my amateur eyes a similar skill set, shifty, speed backs that make crazy cuts and highlight real plays and be very active in the pass game. Reggie Bush had a solid, ok career but nothing that ever came close to the hype (people were proclaiming he was going to be the best of all time before he played a down). Bounced around the league and is never mentioned at all any more and he hasn’t been gone that long.
I think you're right.
In the meantime you prolly need to draft an RB in round 4 or better this coming yearr if you let Gallman walk.
With the OL the way it has been the past few years, Barkley still had the ability to make a play and take it to the house no matter where they were on the field. Thinking back to his rookie year, how many 50+ yard plays did he have? He by far led the league and that was behind a patchwork OL.
You want that type of player on your team and it can only help the offense and keep the opposing defense honest. Personally, if Garrett is back, I would really look forward to seeing what type of game plans he would come up with having Barkley healthy. It opens up the entire offense.
You can't move the goal posts beyond what the expectations were for Barkley when we drafted him. Franchise RB (a concept that doesn't make sense) who graded out next to Peyton Manning and would transform the offense. It turns out nothing was transformed, he was a liability in obvious passing downs due to his blocking, and he spent half of his first 3 seasons injured. He's been ably replaced by the likes of Wayne Gallman, Devonta Freeman, and Alfred Morris - proving that running the ball is more about blocking and scheme than it is the running back.
Barkley was supposed to be the best RB in the league coming off the bus - he was never that. In fact, we all feel better about the team now than at any point since he's been drafted despite his absence.
This isn't knocking him. It's knocking the foolishness of the pick and the future foolishness of committing a second contract to him.
Sure the team didn't win because they sucked, but you can't pin that on him.
You can argue DG shouldn't have went RB at #2, but I draw the line on bashing Barkley. He's performed as advertised.
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and I want to see him behind a competent oline. If he wasn’t as advertised as a rookie and then the 2H of last year after the HAS than I don’t know what to tell you. It’s just goal post moving for anyone that needs to rely on a dumb one liner from our GM.
You can't move the goal posts beyond what the expectations were for Barkley when we drafted him. Franchise RB (a concept that doesn't make sense) who graded out next to Peyton Manning and would transform the offense. It turns out nothing was transformed, he was a liability in obvious passing downs due to his blocking, and he spent half of his first 3 seasons injured. He's been ably replaced by the likes of Wayne Gallman, Devonta Freeman, and Alfred Morris - proving that running the ball is more about blocking and scheme than it is the running back.
Barkley was supposed to be the best RB in the league coming off the bus - he was never that. In fact, we all feel better about the team now than at any point since he's been drafted despite his absence.
This isn't knocking him. It's knocking the foolishness of the pick and the future foolishness of committing a second contract to him.
Pointing to what he did as a rookie isn’t moving goal posts just because you say it is. The injuries have sucked but he was absolutely as advertised in 2018. We had a terrible coach, terrible line and Eli was finished. Don’t know what else to tell you.
And I’m not going to bother with you on what we are now because that’s the definition of what you are accusing me of. Barkley never got to playfor this coaching staff (save for 2 games with no offseason) and this line, so just stop.
And nevertheless, the Giants should be thinking Running Back somewhere on Day 2 or 3 in the next draft.
Sure the team didn't win because they sucked, but you can't pin that on him.
You can argue DG shouldn't have went RB at #2, but I draw the line on bashing Barkley. He's performed as advertised.
And it seems he peaked in his rookie year. Which isn't unheard of for RBs.
I think he was a decent football player, but not really a good winning RB. I think even Shurmur realized this, which is why his carries were often spotty. Who knows what Barkley is now, but he would've been best used lined up in different places to get him out in space, with the occasional carry. He was not - is not - a bellcow.
Definitely not someone you pick with the #2 overall pick.
His touches weren't reduced. He is definitely a bell cow.
Also you might want to look up what a bell is is. Ezekiel Elliott who almost never comes off the field averaged 22.5 touches per game in his 3 best seasons. So he isn’t a bell ow either? Who is?
I’d argue Barkley would get as many or more touches in Dallas than Elliott did.
Also you might want to look up what a bell is is. Ezekiel Elliott who almost never comes off the field averaged 22.5 touches per game in his 3 best seasons. So he isn’t a bell ow either? Who is?
It’s wild. It’s like they are moving back in time to when guys would rush the ball 25 times a game and you’d be lucky to get 3-4 years out of them. I think if some of these guys could go spend a week in defensive meeting rooms when preparing to play the Giants they’d make total 180s. I mean probably not because they are so certain they are right.
Either way, after seeing what Cupp has looked like this year, very excited what this offense is going to look like with him back and a high draft pick on outside.
SB will be coming off his first major injury how that goes only the Gods knows but he’s got youth and talent to work with. Have they learned anything from the SB injury I wonder not much done team wide to prevent this same occurrence in the future. Now Gallman has shown a little but in truth he’s a 3/4 option RB he’s not your number one or two option realistically, he’s shown us what he is no more no less. Let’s not even consider the other RB guys on this roster none present anything special going forward is that not supposed to be in the plan. In reality they must look at the RB position early in the draft preferably or in FA. Or will they plan on having DJ once again leading the team in rushing not sure how long he can continue to do that and remain injury free, same team future planning as with SB if that should occur.
I don’t know what future plans the Giants are making but the overall roster has no options behind any valued young starters going forward amazingly. What happens if DJ, Slayton, Lawrence, Martinez or Bradberry should go down all the other players on this team are overrated or stop gaps guys only. We’re ten games into the season but looking at the future we’re not developing much to say we’re closing the door talent wise in the NFL today or for tomorrow. The NFL is a young mans game but for some reason this teams continues to look at vets to gain roster spots how does that help the team going forward?
You can argue that DG shouldn't have picked a RB at #2, but I will push back on Barkley not being as advertised. People need to separate the two.
The guy was Rookie of the Year, and over the 1st two seasons he rushed for over 2,300 yds and caught passes for over 1,150 yds. This was done with crap on the offense besides him. He is a stud. I can't wait to see what he does behind this young and improving line.
Finally he runs hard. This "he runs weak and dances too much" is another BBI myth.
That said, I'll be very happy to see him play again on the Giants next year and for many years after.
My confidence in him as a player is not shaken the slightest, it's just some bad luck on the injury front that could happen to anybody.
I know this is subjective, but Derrick Henry is a Moose who runs like a cheetah.
Barkley can run around defenders. And it's beautiful.
But Henry get run around, over, and through defenders. He just crushes a defense. On Sunday, he made the Ravens say Uncle...
Barkley caught more passes in his rookie season (92) than Henry has caught over his entire 5 year (almost) career - 69.
Way more...
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
Dragon : 11/24/2020 4:50 pm : link : reply
Look at the league trend most teams have three to four RB’s that rotate into the game if one is hurt there’s another guy ready to step right in.
Most teams?? Who are these teams and how effective are they? The teams with top backs aren't utilizing this strategy. The Panthers, the Cowboys, the Raiders, the Titans, the Vikings, the Falcons, the Chiefs aren't doing this. Some teams have 2 RB's in terms of reliable production like the Saints, the Browns, the Broncos and the Rams.
Even teams rotating in backs because of injuries still settle on a main guy like the Giants have. Or the Seahawks. Or the Cardinals. Even the Steelers, who work in other backs have gone weeks with barely utilizing Snell. It is basically Connor.
I can only think of a couple teams who rotate in several backs by design. The Patriots. The Colts.
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
That’s what makes Barkley special. No other RB in the league is sniffing those numbers in 2018 except maybe CMC. Can you imagine the numbers he’s going to put up next year now we have a competent offensive line? I really hope he comes back healthy to put this nonsense to a rest. I’m a don’t pay RBs guy too, but there’s notable exceptions. It’s guys like Zeke and Henry where I thing the decision gets dicey.
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
That’s what makes Barkley special. No other RB in the league is sniffing those numbers in 2018 except maybe CMC. Can you imagine the numbers he’s going to put up next year now we have a competent offensive line? I really hope he comes back healthy to put this nonsense to a rest. I’m a don’t pay RBs guy too, but there’s notable exceptions. It’s guys like Zeke and Henry where I thing the decision gets dicey.
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
Henry would work anywhere, just to varying degrees. He's more north-south and punishing than Barkley. Much better between the tackles.
Barkley is more dynamic and a better receiver, but I doubt the linebackers and safeties are worried about massages and ice-packs after facing Barkley.
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and he wouldn’t be Derrick Henry of today rushing on those 2018/2019 Giants teams. If you think otherwise you just aren’t being genuine.
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
Henry would work anywhere, just to varying degrees. He's more north-south and punishing than Barkley. Much better between the tackles.
Barkley is more dynamic and a better receiver, but I doubt the linebackers and safeties are worried about massages and ice-packs after facing Barkley.
Henry needs an offensive line to be great. Saquon was rushed for over 4 ypc behind garbage. Wait until we consistently get him out in space like Henry. They’ll need ice packs for all the sprained ankles out there. Maybe not next year, but after seeing what Cupp looks like any doubt he makes a full recovery year 2? That surgeon seems to been touched by the hand of god himself.
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and he wouldn’t be Derrick Henry of today rushing on those 2018/2019 Giants teams. If you think otherwise you just aren’t being genuine.
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
Henry would work anywhere, just to varying degrees. He's more north-south and punishing than Barkley. Much better between the tackles.
Barkley is more dynamic and a better receiver, but I doubt the linebackers and safeties are worried about massages and ice-packs after facing Barkley.
True, just worried about embarrassing themselves grabbing at air as they fall to the ground.
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and he wouldn’t be Derrick Henry of today rushing on those 2018/2019 Giants teams. If you think otherwise you just aren’t being genuine.
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
Henry would work anywhere, just to varying degrees. He's more north-south and punishing than Barkley. Much better between the tackles.
Barkley is more dynamic and a better receiver, but I doubt the linebackers and safeties are worried about massages and ice-packs after facing Barkley.
It’s crazy what picking Barkley has done to people. I hope one day you find peace.
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In comment 15056360 UConn4523 said:
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and he wouldn’t be Derrick Henry of today rushing on those 2018/2019 Giants teams. If you think otherwise you just aren’t being genuine.
I wish things were different, I wish we got our act together sooner so we could have benefitted more from having a guy like Barkley - hopefully we will get that next season. Sometimes timing is everything.
Henry would work anywhere, just to varying degrees. He's more north-south and punishing than Barkley. Much better between the tackles.
Barkley is more dynamic and a better receiver, but I doubt the linebackers and safeties are worried about massages and ice-packs after facing Barkley.
It’s crazy what picking Barkley has done to people. I hope one day you find peace.
🤣😂
Its sort of wierd.
If Barkley comes back as the same player he was, great. If not, the Giants let him go, spend the money elsewhere and know that they can generate a very effective running game without him.
This isn't an issue at all. It's on Barkley to get back to his 2018 level. If he doesn't, the Giants will be fine without him as they've proven as offense over the past month or so.
It’s crazy what picking Barkley has done to people. I hope one day you find peace.
Not sure what you are getting at here.
I didn't say Barkley was a disaster or horrible. I merely suggested Henry's running style conveys better.
Continue to enjoy your ride in the mainstream...
Plus, Daquon is damaged goods.....if we could trade him for a one pick I’d be ecstatic, and for a 2nd I’d be happy.
To be fair people have said crazy things the other way on Barkley: that he's a certain HOFer, that he's comparable to greats like Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk, and so on. Shit, in this thread someone said he's the best RB on the planet when healthy...even though he's never even been the best RB in his division.
Picking Barkley has done a lot to a lot of people...not just those pissed at the pick.
Three years into a career where the overwhelming odds indicate 5-6 years is the extent of really high end play, the outcome is about as bad is it could be. Two years of impressive individual performance that led to a mediocre ground game, and a torn ACL.
That said, Barkley is slated to make $20M+ over his 4th and 5th years. The Giants would be wise to still extend him after this year — give him that ~20M guaranteed at signing and trigger another big guarantee if he exceeds 1200 yards rushing in 21.
You talk all the time about bad coaching and poor talent, but somehow in this discussion you aren’t recognizing those as reasons why Barkley was effectively held back while other RBs had far more to work with. Just doesn’t seem like we are having a genuine conversation here.
You talk all the time about bad coaching and poor talent, but somehow in this discussion you aren’t recognizing those as reasons why Barkley was effectively held back while other RBs had far more to work with. Just doesn’t seem like we are having a genuine conversation here.
We are having a genuine conversation. The problem is you're basing your argument on a made up scenario: if Barkley were in Dallas and Zeke were here, it would be different.
Well it isn't. That's a fantasy, not an argument. Impossible to prove or disprove. It's a commonly used tool on BBI to rationalize the poor choices the Giants have made.
In real life, Barkley hasn't been better than Elliott. In real life, Barkley hasn't worked out as a draft pick. In real life, Barkley hasn't been a great NFL player. If he were, there would be no need for the fantasy scenario that you're using like evidence, but actually isn't.
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Barkley was the best RB in the division. You don’t do what he did as a rookie with a line as bad as he had (and a statue at QB) and come away with the individual success he did. I assume you are putting EE in front of him and while I do like the player I 100% think he gets stonewalled a lot for the Giants, while Barkley would flourish on those Dallas teams.
You talk all the time about bad coaching and poor talent, but somehow in this discussion you aren’t recognizing those as reasons why Barkley was effectively held back while other RBs had far more to work with. Just doesn’t seem like we are having a genuine conversation here.
We are having a genuine conversation. The problem is you're basing your argument on a made up scenario: if Barkley were in Dallas and Zeke were here, it would be different.
Well it isn't. That's a fantasy, not an argument. Impossible to prove or disprove. It's a commonly used tool on BBI to rationalize the poor choices the Giants have made.
In real life, Barkley hasn't been better than Elliott. In real life, Barkley hasn't worked out as a draft pick. In real life, Barkley hasn't been a great NFL player. If he were, there would be no need for the fantasy scenario that you're using like evidence, but actually isn't.
You are right, Barkley is not better than Zeke - mainly because Zeke is behind (or was for 3 years) a great line. Barkley has the better talent - faster and much better receiver. Zeke doing a great job fumbling this year. But UConn is not wrong about Barkley behind Dallas' line.
You are right Barkley (except for his rookie season) is not a "great" NFL player - he has had too many big injuries.
Yet, we all know, that if you put Barkley behind this line right now, even as it evolves, the Giants do not have the #31 offense in the NFL. Each week we see Gallman break through on what looks to be a huge hole only to be tripped by a shoe string grab. Nothing is certain, but it is not a reach to think that several of those trip ups would have been TDs if Barkley had the ball.
You are right, conjecture does not account for wins. However, without conjecture how could you draft any player - in essence you are selecting players on what they may be able to do in the league. Without conjecture teams could not form a plan for the future of the team. In Barkley's case, it is no longer conjecture. We know he is a weapon when he is on the field. He is that player that teams need to scheme for. Of course, "one the field" is an important point.
So arguing that selecting him was wrong is a moot point. The Giants did draft him. He was the best player in the draft. Would Bradley Chubb or Quentin Nelson been better choices - hmmm, maybe so. But the Giants did not do that. What should be thought about is what Barkley will do with this set of coaches and how they will coach him. I look at Kamara and Cook and how they are used and I see how Barkley could/should be used.
Defenses will play the Giants much differently to ensure Barkley does not make an impact or mitigate it at least. They will force other players to step up or have Garrett adjust the offensive play-calling. Or they will pressure the OL differently. I think we witnessed that in the Steelers game.
Is it unrealistic that Barkley will do better (than the Steeler game) with the OL performing better now, no. But it may very well be unrealistic to think he would be breaking every "shoe-string" for a big touchdown run.
Defenses will play the Giants much differently to ensure Barkley does not make an impact or mitigate it at least. They will force other players to step up or have Garrett adjust the offensive play-calling. Or they will pressure the OL differently. I think we witnessed that in the Steelers game.
Is it unrealistic that Barkley will do better (than the Steeler game) with the OL performing better now, no. But it may very well be unrealistic to think he would be breaking every "shoe-string" for a big touchdown run.
Who said every shoe string tackle? It is very realistic that he would have broken some and maybe even not have been touched since he is quicker and faster than Gallman and Morris.
As far as scheming like the Steelers did in game 1 - guarantee that the result had they played the Steelers now would be different. The line now, compared to opening day is night and day. It is doubtful that the blocking would be as bad. I am not saying they beat the Steelers(they had a chance even with the bad running game on week one) but that the Steelers would not be in the backfield before every hand off.
And of course opposing defenses play differently with Barkley in the game. That leaves a lot of open space behind the LBs and Safeties that Jones can throw to - again - better offensive line play allows for receivers to get downfield. If they want to put 8 or 9 in the box, slants across the middle could go a long way.
Your dissection of how “BBI argues” is cute - it’s called sports where scenarios are discussed and what if’s are talked about all the time. If I can’t think Barkley would be great behind that Dallas oline then I guess I’ll just go fuck myself, stupid me.
You and who else? He was the best player in the draft by a long piece.
Are there players playing better at this point since after his 1st year is the real question. And there are at this point.
After his first season, he was the best player chosen that year. Since then you could say Josh Allen or Nick Chubb have definitely preformed better - well hell due to injuries there are numerous.
2. If a franchise likes a player enough to draft him #2 overall, I find it extremely unlikely that same franchise would then opt not to pay that same player for a second contract. If you’re unwilling to pay the position/player for a 2nd contract, why draft him #2 to begin with?
3. RB’s have been getting paid recently, including Christian McCaffrey whose new owner appears to put a strong value on analytics. So l, while the RB value argument is valid, it isn’t stopping them from getting paid.
4. From all accounts Barkley is a great guy and teammate, his value among his teammates and coaches appears to be high.
5. He’s good for business - he’s a flashy player who will continue to sell jerseys.
I like Saquon, I’m looking forward to watching him play next season for a team that hopefully is competing for the division. I fully believe if Saquon is productive next year, he’ll get an extension here. If not and continues to get hurt, that is another story.
Ultimately, the decision doesn’t need to be made yet. Hopefully he has a strong season next year.
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He was not.
You and who else? He was the best player in the draft by a long piece.
Are there players playing better at this point since after his 1st year is the real question. And there are at this point.
After his first season, he was the best player chosen that year. Since then you could say Josh Allen or Nick Chubb have definitely preformed better - well hell due to injuries there are numerous.
Barkley was the safest pick if you believe that RBs have significant value as first round picks.
Many NYG fans, and this started to really manifest when OBJ arrived, are enamored with style. And Barkley certainly checks that box. Unfortunately, there style points are not blended into the final score of a game. It's just how many times you cross the goal line and kick the ball through the uprights.
But going into next year, Barkley will be a 4th year player, coming off a torn ACL (if you want to get really concerned read up on the connection between ACL, meniscus, and ankle injuries on arthritis).
In 3 seasons Barkley will have never suited up for a .500 or above team, will have never played a meaningful game in November, and never won a meaningful game.
The odds get really low a running back is a cornerstone player after 6 or so years in the league. Barkley could very well (likely is) halfway through his prime. So let’s not act like this went well.
But going into next year, Barkley will be a 4th year player, coming off a torn ACL (if you want to get really concerned read up on the connection between ACL, meniscus, and ankle injuries on arthritis).
In 3 seasons Barkley will have never suited up for a .500 or above team, will have never played a meaningful game in November, and never won a meaningful game.
The odds get really low a running back is a cornerstone player after 6 or so years in the league. Barkley could very well (likely is) halfway through his prime. So let’s not act like this went well.
"In 3 seasons Barkley will have never suited up for a .500 or above team, will have never played a meaningful game in November, and never won a meaningful game."
This isn't his fault, and yet people keep using this as a point. There are 21 other players out there plus special teams. He was the Rookie of the Year and a Pro Bowl player. He was doing his part.
Fans expectations are dumb. Football is the ultimate team sport. The NY Giants failures aren’t Saquon’s failures. In fact the biggest failure of this franchise is hiring Shurmur and his awful Rolodex. Total reactionary move with what happened with McAdoo. Can’t say I knew much about Judge before that first press conference other than he had some good specials in NE and coached under Saban and BB. For that reason alone I was excited because 1 - been banging the drum for the NFL hiring more special teams guys to that position. So many head coaches fail because they get buried onto “their” side of the football. That works for guys like Reid and Shanahsn due to their genius, but it’s a losing formula for many 2 - it showed me our historically traditional franchise was finally trying some outside the box solutions. 3 - in his travels his Rolodex is full of some properly trained coaches. No more Hal hunters coaching the OL.
Of course like many, after many fans I was sold, pretty clear there was something special about the guy and an absolute leader of men.
Sean brought up Christian Mccaffrey's contract above... Carolina is averaging a little over 23 PPG this year with McCaffrey missing much of the season. McCaffrey had a massive statistical year last year; a historic RB season. Know how many points they scored? 21 PPG.
Paying a big RB contract is throwing money away. There are too many examples to list at this point.
Keep Barkley around in 2021, hope he plays well and stays healthy, then trade him. That's how you maximize the value of the asset.
Barkley is not just a running back - he is a top notch receiver. As a receiver he made a lot of hay out there. And the things he does out in the open field after catching the ball - well there are not many players out there that can do what he can. He is a very elusive runner in the open field with the ball. It is disingenuous to discuss Barkley's merits without discussing this impact in his repertoire.
So if you are criticizing picking a running back so high in the first round - that doesn't really cut at Barkley's real value.
I also think is disingenuous to blame the Giants lack of success on Barkley -- where does the sloppy play come in in that calculation, the badly timed penalties, the turnovers that were occurring from Eli to Jones due to them being under constant pressure. Why is all that being ignored in your arguments?
Barkley went down in game number two - the Giants proceeded to lose 5 of the next 6 games without him -- all this with the same personnel that is on the team now, and that managed to turn things around. Have you somehow determined that the Giants wouldn't have been able to turn things around with Barkley still in the line up?
I have issues with your constant negativity, and your gross mischaracterizations.
Sean brought up Christian Mccaffrey's contract above... Carolina is averaging a little over 23 PPG this year with McCaffrey missing much of the season. McCaffrey had a massive statistical year last year; a historic RB season. Know how many points they scored? 21 PPG.
Paying a big RB contract is throwing money away. There are too many examples to list at this point.
Keep Barkley around in 2021, hope he plays well and stays healthy, then trade him. That's how you maximize the value of the asset.
Their QB play was awful last year. Allen is so unbelievably limited it was the total wrong fit for that team. Put a guy with a decent arm in there and they score a lot more points.
Who’s saying it was his fault? He’s a fantastic player.
Doesn’t change he plays a position with the highest statistical injury rate, the shortest career length, and because of his draft slot a pretty high salary for his position. None of this should be a surprise.
If the crystal ball on draft night said the first three years of Barkley would land the Giants in the bottom half of rushing in the NFL all 3 years and a torn ACL, no one would sign up for that.
The only point I’m making is it hasn’t gone well, and it’s not shocking.
Barkley is not just a running back - he is a top notch receiver. As a receiver he made a lot of hay out there. And the things he does out in the open field after catching the ball - well there are not many players out there that can do what he can. He is a very elusive runner in the open field with the ball. It is disingenuous to discuss Barkley's merits without discussing this impact in his repertoire.
So if you are criticizing picking a running back so high in the first round - that doesn't really cut at Barkley's real value.
I also think is disingenuous to blame the Giants lack of success on Barkley -- where does the sloppy play come in in that calculation, the badly timed penalties, the turnovers that were occurring from Eli to Jones due to them being under constant pressure. Why is all that being ignored in your arguments?
Barkley went down in game number two - the Giants proceeded to lose 5 of the next 6 games without him -- all this with the same personnel that is on the team now, and that managed to turn things around. Have you somehow determined that the Giants wouldn't have been able to turn things around with Barkley still in the line up?
I have issues with your constant negativity, and your gross mischaracterizations.
This is exactly my point.
I’m pretty anti paying traditional RB big money as well. Not sure Id pay guys like Zeke and Henry.
Guys like Kamara, CMC, and Barkley are totally different. It’s taken the game a minute to catch up to what the modern NFL wants out of the backfield which is a much more dynamic type player. These guys just aren’t “running backs”. Of course Barkley needs to prove he can stay healthy over the next two years, but if he checks that box, pay him.
He was the most talented player in the draft. He was and is perfect off the field. PErfect on it. He got hurt. That's football.
If he comes back and shows he can play the Giants will keep him because he's a winning talent. They will figure out which guys to keep and which guys not to keep because for every 10 good players the Giants develop, they will keep 9 of them once FA comes around. The cap is a talking point. It's something to respect, not something to obsess over. Winning teams figure out how to fit guys in under the cap. The Giants will too. Just like they did in the 2000s when they peaked under Coughlin.
The Giants didnt suck these last 8 years because of Vernon's contract or Snack's contract or BEckham's dead cap hit. They sucked because they only hit on 1 draft pick every year, at best.
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This isn't his fault, and yet people keep using this as a point. There are 21 other players out there plus special teams. He was the Rookie of the Year and a Pro Bowl player. He was doing his part.
Who’s saying it was his fault? He’s a fantastic player.
Doesn’t change he plays a position with the highest statistical injury rate, the shortest career length, and because of his draft slot a pretty high salary for his position. None of this should be a surprise.
If the crystal ball on draft night said the first three years of Barkley would land the Giants in the bottom half of rushing in the NFL all 3 years and a torn ACL, no one would sign up for that.
The only point I’m making is it hasn’t gone well, and it’s not shocking.
The career length is based on poor statistical data that doesn’t properly paint the picture of the usage of the guys, both stylistically and usage rate, that elite RBs get now.
Barkley is not just a running back - he is a top notch receiver. As a receiver he made a lot of hay out there. And the things he does out in the open field after catching the ball - well there are not many players out there that can do what he can. He is a very elusive runner in the open field with the ball. It is disingenuous to discuss Barkley's merits without discussing this impact in his repertoire.
So if you are criticizing picking a running back so high in the first round - that doesn't really cut at Barkley's real value.
I also think is disingenuous to blame the Giants lack of success on Barkley -- where does the sloppy play come in in that calculation, the badly timed penalties, the turnovers that were occurring from Eli to Jones due to them being under constant pressure. Why is all that being ignored in your arguments?
Barkley went down in game number two - the Giants proceeded to lose 5 of the next 6 games without him -- all this with the same personnel that is on the team now, and that managed to turn things around. Have you somehow determined that the Giants wouldn't have been able to turn things around with Barkley still in the line up?
I have issues with your constant negativity, and your gross mischaracterizations.
I just said above that this isn't about blaming Barkley.
I have issues with people mischaracterizing my arguments, and with the oceans of rationalizations that comprise some of the arguments people make to justify some of the disastrous moves (like drafting Barkley) this organization has made.
There are reasons this team has been a disaster. Some of us want to understand those reasons, and others would rather snuggle up to their Barkley jerseys and pretend it hasn't happened.
Whatever works for you.
If this OL is for real and we can run RBs of the Wayne Gallman ilk out there and effectively run the ball, that money should go to filling other holes on the team.
OK. Then let’s see the statistical data on the subset of players you want included. In fact, give me 5 players you compare him to and I’ll run it for you.
I just said above that this isn't about blaming Barkley.
I have issues with people mischaracterizing my arguments, and with the oceans of rationalizations that comprise some of the arguments people make to justify some of the disastrous moves (like drafting Barkley) this organization has made.
There are reasons this team has been a disaster. Some of us want to understand those reasons, and others would rather snuggle up to their Barkley jerseys and pretend it hasn't happened.
Whatever works for you.
The fact is that the jury is still out on whether Barkley was a good pick or not. But I'm glad for you that you can twist around the fact and logic of anything about his pick to suit a negative rip it down philosophy. It's a philosophy that you've snuggled up to for nearly two decades now that I'm aware of. The faces my change, but this is an agenda you gladly snuggle up to no matter whose face is behind the rostrum; cherry-picking anything that supports your venom. It's also routine for you to accuse any dissent of snuggling up to whatever the feeds your venom of the day. Back attacher Terpsie
Now, some will jump in and say "...it's the improved OL! And if Barkley runs behind a better OL, look out!"
But that's the wrong way to dissect it. The right conclusion is that having a competent OL means you don't need a high end RB to win. You just need to go to your local RB store and grab a few good ones. And enjoy the opportunity to spend your cap dollars on more critical positions/needs.
This is just Football 101...2020.
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The career length is based on poor statistical data that doesn’t properly paint the picture of the usage of the guys, both stylistically and usage rate, that elite RBs get now.
OK. Then let’s see the statistical data on the subset of players you want included. In fact, give me 5 players you compare him to and I’ll run it for you.
This is a recent phenomenon as far as talent and usage goes. Like I said what the NFL is looking for has taken time for the college game to catch up. Kamara, CMC, and Barkley are pretty new to the game.
I can only think of one player that fits this qualification and it's Marshall Faulk. He had his best years from 26-28. The cliff hit at 30, but who cares? Lots of players fail at 30. Does anyone make the argument you shouldn't draft corners at number 2? Really has nothing to do with his second contract either.
Now, some will jump in and say "...it's the improved OL! And if Barkley runs behind a better OL, look out!"
But that's the wrong way to dissect it. The right conclusion is that having a competent OL means you don't need a high end RB to win. You just need to go to your local RB store and grab a few good ones. And enjoy the opportunity to spend your cap dollars on more critical positions/needs.
This is just Football 101...2020.
This is such bullshit. Big plays are big plays regardless of where they are coming from. Saquon would probably rushing for 5.5 ypc based on what the numbers have said vs these other guys. He's already shown he's a full yard and a half better than Gallman. When you are rushing for over 5ypc you are certainly a very good football team.
You don't need anything to win outside of a QB. Outside of that, you pay players based on their health and how good they are compared to the rest of their position. These positional dollars are already factored in. In fact Tepper, Captain Analytics, just paid McCaffrey because I think he believes there is an edge there right now because of what that type of RB brings compared to the positional value dollars right now. On the flip side of that, I'd make the argument that right now edge rushers are pretty overpaid to what they bring to the table as well as it seems corners are underpaid.
Now, some will jump in and say "...it's the improved OL! And if Barkley runs behind a better OL, look out!"
But that's the wrong way to dissect it. The right conclusion is that having a competent OL means you don't need a high end RB to win. You just need to go to your local RB store and grab a few good ones. And enjoy the opportunity to spend your cap dollars on more critical positions/needs.
This is just Football 101...2020.
There are a few things I will agree with here. One is that having an improving offensive line certainly does seem to improve the offense. The other is that I have enjoyed the development of the power running game with Freeman, Morris and Gallman.
It's also probably true that with Barkley on the team we wouldn't have brought Freemen and Morris to the the table.
But placing myself in the shoes I was in on draft day. For me the choice was Barkley or Chubb. In hindsight Ward would also have been a good pick. I still would have preferred Chubb and wanted to go defense that year. I did not like the QB choices in that draft. I also felt that Barkley was an unusually talented multi pronged weapon and a very intriguing prospect - but gun to my head -- I would have picked Chubb.
We’re running the ball now! Who needs a good rb?!
Now, some will jump in and say "...it's the improved OL! And if Barkley runs behind a better OL, look out!"
But that's the wrong way to dissect it. The right conclusion is that having a competent OL means you don't need a high end RB to win. You just need to go to your local RB store and grab a few good ones. And enjoy the opportunity to spend your cap dollars on more critical positions/needs.
This is just Football 101...2020.
But we already have Barkley. Some people want to continually look back and say DG is an idiot, and picking a RB at #2 is one example why. Ok fine, we can debate this. But lets not extend it to Barkley's play. The two are separate. Barkley has played really good on a crappy team. He's done everything as advertised. Was a RB the right pick, I'm not sure, but its not Barkley's fault and he has done what was expected.
I can only think of one player that fits this qualification and it's Marshall Faulk. He had his best years from 26-28. The cliff hit at 30, but who cares? Lots of players fail at 30. Does anyone make the argument you shouldn't draft corners at number 2? Really has nothing to do with his second contract either.
So there’s no evidence these types of players will have longer or more productive careers (than the averages) and you’re just predicting? We can agree to disagree on that point.
I think Barkley is halfway through the elite years of his career, and these three years haven’t been very successful.
I do however think the Giants should redo his contract and do it this offseason. I think the Giants have extraordinary leverage and should use it to retain him for years 5, 6, and 7 of his career at a fair price.
And that's the real key in the NFL. Being ahead of the curve, something that the Hoodie and Ernie Adams, understand. Every team in the NFL points to whatever the successful team is at the moment, say let's emulate that, and forces up the prices of all the players to fit this style. Seahawks built a pretty good defense by identifying some trends defensively and going the other way.
I was actually thinking about this the other day, I'd make the argument you shouldn't draft WR's in the top 10 anymore based on the availability and depth of the guys coming into the NFL now. Because these guys don't get destroyed anymore, you are seeing a ton of these guys choose football over basketball. I remember growing up, almost to a man, all these great WR's first love was basketball. You are actually seeing guys that are spurning basketball for football now, increasing the talent pool to levels we haven't seen before.
But also agree, we have Barkley the asset so no going back. Hopefully when he returns and shows he still has game the Giants can move him for good value and still put together a good running game as the OL continues to improve.
Or they can keep Barkley and promise never to do something like that again. :-)
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This is a recent phenomenon as far as talent and usage goes. Like I said what the NFL is looking for has taken time for the college game to catch up. Kamara, CMC, and Barkley are pretty new to the game.
I can only think of one player that fits this qualification and it's Marshall Faulk. He had his best years from 26-28. The cliff hit at 30, but who cares? Lots of players fail at 30. Does anyone make the argument you shouldn't draft corners at number 2? Really has nothing to do with his second contract either.
So there’s no evidence these types of players will have longer or more productive careers (than the averages) and you’re just predicting? We can agree to disagree on that point.
I think Barkley is halfway through the elite years of his career, and these three years haven’t been very successful.
I do however think the Giants should redo his contract and do it this offseason. I think the Giants have extraordinary leverage and should use it to retain him for years 5, 6, and 7 of his career at a fair price.
I can respect thinking the other way because it's really just a projection, but a guy like Frank Gore playing at a pretty good level at 37 to me, after tearing his ACL twice I think is a good indicator. About 250 carriers with another 50 or so touches in the pass game, that's pretty much standard RB usage now for your primary RB.
Disagree that is halfway through his prime, but like I said mostly just projection based on a couple guys so I can understand your viewpoint.
What I do agree with, is this would be the perfect time to extend him. And I think to get him to the table, we make the extension 4 years post his fifth year option. Never going to happen of course, but I really think this is the wise move. This surgeon has an unbelievable track record, and the common understanding in the medical community is that they are physically the same 1 year after injury if the surgery and rehab go well, which is much more likely than not at this point, especially with the guy who they got to do it. It's the mental part that takes time to get back, which is understandable. Crazy how far we've come here in the past 15 years. 10 years ago it was considered no longer a career killer and now it's not even considered to take anything away from the player as long as all goes well.
But we already have Barkley. Some people want to continually look back and say DG is an idiot, and picking a RB at #2 is one example why. Ok fine, we can debate this. But lets not extend it to Barkley's play. The two are separate. Barkley has played really good on a crappy team. He's done everything as advertised. Was a RB the right pick, I'm not sure, but its not Barkley's fault and he has done what was expected.
Yes, we have Barkley, but we are managing to win without his services. Which I only underscore to enhance the point that you don't need the premium back to create wins if the OL is better.
So if Barkley comes back and does well, great. In fact, let's hope he kills it. And sets records along the way. But once that dust settles, the smart play is to trade him at the end of the 2021 season.
Try to get something reasonable in return and avoid the trap of paying for services rendered. Because the odds are still going to be against you that Barkley is a RB who gets better with age. And the more likely outcome is he starts to hit the other side of the production curve right around the corner...
If the Giants let Barkley play out years 4 and 5, it’s going to cost them ~20M. The Giants should leverage this situation to extend Barkley, and make part of the guaranteed money contingent on him returning to form next year.
Those which argue against extending Barks, seem to me at least, to more rooted in what Saquon has actually been to date. They look at his production, his games, catches, pass pro, etc and they see an often injured player with a really great rookie season and then not too much else on a really lousy team. Barks detractors don’t really kill the player, he’s a good guy, they just look at other RB1s and how they’re paid and where they’re drafted and how many years they play in the NFL. Rational analysis would seem to indicate that RB1 isn’t a position to draft high for a whole host of reason based resource allocation arguments. It doesn’t seem like a good use of cap money. It isn’t likely a position of great longevity. And even among the outliers, a la Zeke or CMC or AK, Barks hasn’t really equaled these guys. At least not yet.
Those which argue against extending Barks, seem to me at least, to more rooted in what Saquon has actually been to date. They look at his production, his games, catches, pass pro, etc and they see an often injured player with a really great rookie season and then not too much else on a really lousy team. Barks detractors don’t really kill the player, he’s a good guy, they just look at other RB1s and how they’re paid and where they’re drafted and how many years they play in the NFL. Rational analysis would seem to indicate that RB1 isn’t a position to draft high for a whole host of reason based resource allocation arguments. It doesn’t seem like a good use of cap money. It isn’t likely a position of great longevity. And even among the outliers, a la Zeke or CMC or AK, Barks hasn’t really equaled these guys. At least not yet.
Barks has equalled these guys and more. Put them in our situation and you don't see them hitting the numbers they have on their team either. Trying to project playerss and how they good are when you remove them from what is going on around them is exactly how you pay guys. Or you'd literally see teams wander around just sucking year after year because hey we didn't win with these guys so we can lose without them. Yeah but then you are constantly letting good players leave and trying to replace them with a bunch of scrubs. FA is pretty anemic these days outside some outlier situations, like new coach coming in or teams really strapped for cash.
And I think you hit on a fundamental point that I'd argue the complete opposite. To many people are outcome dependant instead of process. Put up good stats you are good player, put up bad stats and your a bad player. Play for a bad team and ipso facto you're a bad player as well. Saw this argument made about Odell which to me was asinine. Still think it was the right move to trade him for other reasons, but that one I really disagree with. Football is the quintessential team sport.
Take someone like Engram, certainly has limitations, but you can take advantage of his strengths a lot more with Barkley in the lineup. With the way the offensive line has played this year, teams are going to have no choice but to play man. Engram will kill teams on crossing routes in this situation. That's how bad our offensive line has been, teams have been getting away with playing more zone than they should be against a talent like Saquon. No longer the case, but we still don't see a ton of man because our RBs scare no one.
Going into this year, if you were to take all teams and have them construct a roster for one year, Barkley would certainly be the first RB taken among his peers.
Barks is flashy and physically amazing. But I just don’t think he is cut out for the NFL grind and punish. Hope I’m wrong.
Barks is flashy and physically amazing. But I just don’t think he is cut out for the NFL grind and punish. Hope I’m wrong.
If you don't think Barkley is a better receiver than Henry, Zeke, Cook, Mixon and especially Chubb I don't think anyone should take your opinion seriously. Guys like Scott, Kamara, and CMC can go run routes in the pass game, not just go catch screens. And when you have all in 1 guys like CMC, Barkley, and to a lesser extent Kamara you keep the defense guessing any time they are out there. Marshall Faulk wasn't a physical back and neither was Sanders and they are both heading are in the Hall, and deservedly so. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
You clearly just don't like him because he doesn't run people over, or rarely at least. That's all well and great, but they are also the guys that tend to last in the NFL. In fact I though Barkley's style was part of the reason you can justify him as a pick, I think he looks good throughout a second contract. Injuries tend to happen on two types of teams, older ones and bad ones. When your offensive line is controlling things up front, you tend to get hit by less guys, reducing injury risk. It's entirely possible that Saquon's knee weakened by the billion times he'd get tackled by 4 people in the backfield.
There are two backs in the league that are going to beat everyone 1v1 almost every time, Kamara and Barkley. The other guys fight for yards because they don't have the agility to shake guys. More punishing runners are going to do better behind crap offensive lines, but who cares? If you have a crap offensive line you are at best a mediocre football team either way. Put Saquon behind that 2017 Cowboys line and he breaks the rushing record. Zeke never even got touched to the second level on the majority of his carries.
And why do you say Zeke can’t catch the football as well as Barks? Zeke’s a terrific pass catcher and route runner. The Pokes haven’t ever featured him in the pass game but that doesn’t mean he can’t do it. But again, on production, I don’t see a big diff between Zeke and Barks in the passing game.
I don’t think it’s emotional to say Barks isn’t a contact runner or physical back. It might be somewhat subjective but I also think it’s fairly well agreed that Barks isn’t a physically punishing runner.
And why do you say Zeke can’t catch the football as well as Barks? Zeke’s a terrific pass catcher and route runner. The Pokes haven’t ever featured him in the pass game but that doesn’t mean he can’t do it. But again, on production, I don’t see a big diff between Zeke and Barks in the passing game.
I don’t think it’s emotional to say Barks isn’t a contact runner or physical back. It might be somewhat subjective but I also think it’s fairly well agreed that Barks isn’t a physically punishing runner.
You use the word production, stats are as much a team effort as they are individual in football. How do you know Zeke is a tremendous route runner! He's never done it any level. He's done in his damage in the pass game running screens because the Boys offensive line was so good and he's a talent it would force teams into man and sending extra guys, which opens that up.
Zeke is averaging 3.9 yards a carry. Do you think you see anything different on the football field from him, fumbles aside. Of course not. He's a 25 year old with a very clean injury history. He's in the middle of his prime. The difference is the line. The thing is we have seen Barkley run behind similar circumstances is whole career and he's averaging 4.7 yards per carry. He's a special back, that needs to stay healthy. That's really the crux of the matter and it's asinine to say his stats won't get better with the offensive line blocking competently now. They aren't even great! Just competent.
Outside some catastrophic injuries on the OL (because we finally have some depth now as well) or an injury riddled season you can book him for over 5ypc. In fact I'll bet you anything you want on that happening. Two years removed I almost expect a historic season from him.
He looks like a RB that's either (1) hit his ceiling at the five year mark of his career and/or (2) he just isn't as physically tight as he was once he entered the league. In other words, I think the big contract softened him up once the ink dried on the contract...
And I actually empathize with these backs like Elliott. They handle a tremendous number of carries and they run to contact. So they have a short shelf life and basically get once crack at making a mint.
My initial point stands - there are plenty of RB1s in the NFL with better production than SB.
But you are correct about what may be - Saquon has a LOT of potential. In two years he MIGHT be amazing! And every time he touches the ball he COULD go ALL the WAY!
(But he usually doesn't).