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Good piece on Judge by Paul Schwartz

Victor in CT : 11/24/2020 9:17 am
And some very good comments from Leonard Williams. While I disagreed with trading picks for him and thought they should have just waited for FA, I have to say I am impressed with his play and his character.
What controversial Giants firing says about Joe Judge - ( New Window )
As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 9:29 am : link
set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..
Pay Leonard Williams. There are clearly things he brings to this  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/24/2020 9:31 am : link
football team outside of his high level play. That quote says it all.
RE: Pay Leonard Williams. There are clearly things he brings to this  
section125 : 11/24/2020 9:33 am : link
In comment 15055531 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
football team outside of his high level play. That quote says it all.


He may not get the pressure Aaron Donald gets, although he is not far behind and he is much better against the run, IMHO.

Pay the man.
RE: As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
jvm52106 : 11/24/2020 9:35 am : link
In comment 15055527 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..


BB56 can't agree more. The timing of the tarde may have caught folks off guard but, he is here and for a 3-4 (ish) he is a perfect fit for that. If we had a true Edge guy Williams numbers would be even better. At times he just mauls through guys and I think we need to keep him long term.
Williams is doing everything you want see in a player  
chick310 : 11/24/2020 9:38 am : link
looking for a new contract. First and foremost, he is playing very well. It is obvious he enjoys playing with his peers. And quotes like these show he is also toeing the party line with how Judge is operating the team.

While any player will look out for his best interest in contract negotiations, it is difficult to see why a reasonable, yet lucrative, deal for Williams should not be struck.
I agree with you guys, I think they should keep him. I never had  
Victor in CT : 11/24/2020 10:00 am : link
anything against him as a player, just thought waiting for FA would have been wiser.
Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
Greg from LI : 11/24/2020 10:04 am : link
for a contract. Imagine that.
RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
Victor in CT : 11/24/2020 10:06 am : link
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
for a contract. Imagine that.


wasn't he looking for one last year too?
I hated the trade  
PaulN : 11/24/2020 10:06 am : link
I was wrong, dead wrong, this guy is a leader and I was wrong for looking at the sack numbers from his last 2 seasons as proof it was a dumb move, plus what he gets paid and will cost, plus the draft picks and timing of the trade, he has become one of the four players to build around on defense, maybe three, Williams, Bradberry, and Martinez are our best defensive players and leaders, Ryan and Peppers are also doing a good job.
RE: Pay Leonard Williams. There are clearly things he brings to this  
djm : 11/24/2020 10:08 am : link
In comment 15055531 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
football team outside of his high level play. That quote says it all.


We can't pay him and find a pass-rusher is what many on BBI have been parroting lately. I find that to be complete nonsense, but it is what it is. Fans are scared to see the Giants spend money on one of the best #/4 DEs in the game. Yesterday I actually saw a post that said they were glad the Knicks didn't have any max talents because max contracts are insanely high. That right there says it all.
RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
djm : 11/24/2020 10:11 am : link
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
for a contract. Imagine that.


Yea, it's not like the guy made a pro bowl in 2016 or consistently beings pressure year in year out while stuffinf the run at a high level.

Also, he has played for FOUR, count them FOUR different head coaches since entering the NFL 6 years ago.

Maybe the guy has just developed into a great 2 way player thanks to good coaching and stability? Could that be it?

He's better than Chris Canty. And Canty made a MINT here. What the hell is the problem?
also  
djm : 11/24/2020 10:12 am : link
he was looking for a contract last year too. HE didn't get any sacks after the midseason trade so he must not have cared as much.

The logic escapes me.
RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
HomerJones45 : 11/24/2020 10:13 am : link
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
for a contract. Imagine that.
Yeah. Beware the player playing for the big multi-year contract. This is the same guy who disappeared last year when we had a pattycake schedule.

And Paul Schwartz doesn't play the house organ; he IS the house organ.
I thought Williams played well in 2019  
cosmicj : 11/24/2020 10:16 am : link
He was the best defensive player we had last season.
RE: RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
Victor in CT : 11/24/2020 10:18 am : link
In comment 15055577 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


for a contract. Imagine that.



Yea, it's not like the guy made a pro bowl in 2016 or consistently beings pressure year in year out while stuffinf the run at a high level.

Also, he has played for FOUR, count them FOUR different head coaches since entering the NFL 6 years ago.

Maybe the guy has just developed into a great 2 way player thanks to good coaching and stability? Could that be it?

He's better than Chris Canty. And Canty made a MINT here. What the hell is the problem?


The "problem" is the usual "everything the Giants/DG/Mara do is wrong" crowd. Anyone who compliments a move is either a blind loyalist (Fan) or a house organ (writer/commentator).
RE: RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 10:22 am : link
In comment 15055577 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


for a contract. Imagine that.



Yea, it's not like the guy made a pro bowl in 2016 or consistently beings pressure year in year out while stuffinf the run at a high level.

Also, he has played for FOUR, count them FOUR different head coaches since entering the NFL 6 years ago.

Maybe the guy has just developed into a great 2 way player thanks to good coaching and stability? Could that be it?

He's better than Chris Canty. And Canty made a MINT here. What the hell is the problem?


Right...what the hell is the problem?

Why didn't Gettleman get him signed already? What is he waiting for?
The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
cosmicj : 11/24/2020 10:25 am : link
Redeploying his cap space to sign an edge rusher, a position which is even more expensive than a 3-4 DL and where there is a real risk of the acquired edge player being a bust due to a lack of fit.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
RE: As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 10:36 am : link
In comment 15055527 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..


Its tiresome for sure. I can count on one hand the number of 3rd round picks that have worked out well for us, its such a crap shoot.
RE: RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 10:37 am : link
In comment 15055582 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


for a contract. Imagine that.

Yeah. Beware the player playing for the big multi-year contract. This is the same guy who disappeared last year when we had a pattycake schedule.

And Paul Schwartz doesn't play the house organ; he IS the house organ.


And the flip side is that his coaching staff is light year better than any he's had to date.

I know its cool to hate everything but maybe, just maybe he's actually a good player?
RE: RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
Rory : 11/24/2020 10:37 am : link
In comment 15055582 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


for a contract. Imagine that.

Yeah. Beware the player playing for the big multi-year contract. This is the same guy who disappeared last year when we had a pattycake schedule.

And Paul Schwartz doesn't play the house organ; he IS the house organ.


no defensive lineman will show an impact when you have a weak secondary (last year). Watch the games, Williams gets double teamed 90% of the time.

Now with Bradberry/Martinez being here things are different.
RE: RE: As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 10:39 am : link
In comment 15055607 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055527 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..



Its tiresome for sure. I can count on one hand the number of 3rd round picks that have worked out well for us, its such a crap shoot.


They need to find better shooters.
Williams was also in a contract year last year  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 10:42 am : link
if you don’t think coaching matters then I don’t know what to tell you.
RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
section125 : 11/24/2020 10:42 am : link
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
for a contract. Imagine that.


When was he not playing well? He was always pretty good. Now he he is a better system. I will not dismiss the contract year impetus, but he was never chopped liver. He was out of position on the Jets.
RE: RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
djm : 11/24/2020 10:43 am : link
In comment 15055582 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


for a contract. Imagine that.

Yeah. Beware the player playing for the big multi-year contract. This is the same guy who disappeared last year when we had a pattycake schedule.

And Paul Schwartz doesn't play the house organ; he IS the house organ.


Yea, I can completely rip this logic apart with facts if you really want me to. Beware the contract hungry player...beware...

Except, in this NFL age we now live in, contracts are not fully guaranteed so if the player decides to "check out" he's not getting all that money he just signed for one year prior.

Also, guys just signing their 2nd contract don't typically check out because they are professional athletes that don't want to lose games or look like shit or get cut.

In other words, give the guy some fucking credit. Not every pro athlete is a piece of lazy trash.
RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
djm : 11/24/2020 10:44 am : link
In comment 15055595 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Redeploying his cap space to sign an edge rusher, a position which is even more expensive than a 3-4 DL and where there is a real risk of the acquired edge player being a bust due to a lack of fit.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.


Also, there's no book out there that mandates you can't have a high priced DT (and DE) AND add a high priced pass rusher.

THe 2010 Giants would like to say hello. Remember us?
You can play the “He will check out after getting paid”  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 10:47 am : link
game for almost anyone other than a QB. It’s a really dumb way to go about making a point.
Love judge  
5BowlsSoon : 11/24/2020 11:04 am : link
Love Williams
RE: RE: As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
joeinpa : 11/24/2020 11:46 am : link
In comment 15055538 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055527 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..



BB56 can't agree more. The timing of the tarde may have caught folks off guard but, he is here and for a 3-4 (ish) he is a perfect fit for that. If we had a true Edge guy Williams numbers would be even better. At times he just mauls through guys and I think we need to keep him long term.


I loved the trade from the time it happened. Never understood the idea that because he was a free agent you don’t trade for him.

A 3rd round pick seems like a pretty good deal for their best player on defense
RE: RE: RE: As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 11:57 am : link
In comment 15055742 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15055538 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15055527 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..



BB56 can't agree more. The timing of the tarde may have caught folks off guard but, he is here and for a 3-4 (ish) he is a perfect fit for that. If we had a true Edge guy Williams numbers would be even better. At times he just mauls through guys and I think we need to keep him long term.



I loved the trade from the time it happened. Never understood the idea that because he was a free agent you don’t trade for him.

A 3rd round pick seems like a pretty good deal for their best player on defense


I also never understood the idea of trading for a player that you don't sign to an extended contract.
RE: RE: Pay Leonard Williams. There are clearly things he brings to this  
BelieveJJ : 11/24/2020 12:07 pm : link
In comment 15055535 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055531 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


football team outside of his high level play. That quote says it all.



He may not get the pressure Aaron Donald gets, although he is not far behind and he is much better against the run, IMHO.

Pay the man.


I supported the trade, was bummed he could not be signed to a long term contract, support signing him now for up to 17/18M AAG.

But c'mon now, he's not near the disruptive force Donald is. You're talking the consecutive year over year NFL DPOY, or is it 3 DPOYs for AD?

LW isn't sniffing DPOY status, get real.
RE: RE: RE: RE: As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
djm : 11/24/2020 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15055758 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055742 joeinpa said:


Quote:


In comment 15055538 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15055527 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..



BB56 can't agree more. The timing of the tarde may have caught folks off guard but, he is here and for a 3-4 (ish) he is a perfect fit for that. If we had a true Edge guy Williams numbers would be even better. At times he just mauls through guys and I think we need to keep him long term.



I loved the trade from the time it happened. Never understood the idea that because he was a free agent you don’t trade for him.

A 3rd round pick seems like a pretty good deal for their best player on defense



I also never understood the idea of trading for a player that you don't sign to an extended contract.


Yes you do. You understand that teams and players negotiate and bluff and wait things out. It happens all the time.
Teams trade draft picks for impending free agents  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 12:37 pm : link
and then don't sign them to an extended deal...all the time?

Actually, I didn't realize it was so commonplace. Who are some of these guys?
RE: Teams trade draft picks for impending free agents  
JB_in_DC : 11/24/2020 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15055804 LBH15 said:
Quote:
and then don't sign them to an extended deal...all the time?

Actually, I didn't realize it was so commonplace. Who are some of these guys?


Off the top of my head from last year there's Clowney (traded for a 3rd rd pick plus players to Seattle) and Sanu (for a 2nd rd pick to the Pats).
RE: RE: Teams trade draft picks for impending free agents  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 1:13 pm : link
In comment 15055823 JB_in_DC said:
Quote:
In comment 15055804 LBH15 said:


Quote:


and then don't sign them to an extended deal...all the time?

Actually, I didn't realize it was so commonplace. Who are some of these guys?



Off the top of my head from last year there's Clowney (traded for a 3rd rd pick plus players to Seattle) and Sanu (for a 2nd rd pick to the Pats).


I think the Patriots just released Sanu. He was under contract. Clowney is more comparable, although he was left to just go into free agency.
So wouldnt that make the Sanu trade even worse?  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 1:32 pm : link
Williams is doing more in 1 game than Sanu ever did for the Pats. I don’t get your angle on this anyway. We don’t know when negotiations started and you can force either side to make a deal.

This situation would be easier to shit all over if he stunk but since he doesn’t finding things to complain about gets harder.
I think Williams just likes playing football  
ghost718 : 11/24/2020 1:34 pm : link
As for Judge,everyone has their own interpretation.I don't think he's as flexible as he claims to be.So we'll see what happens in the future.
RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
giants#1 : 11/24/2020 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15055567 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
for a contract. Imagine that.


He's not playing 'much' better. Maybe relative to his short stint with the Giants last year when he had to learn the schemes on the fly, but his overall numbers this year aren't significantly better than his career bests.

If you want to see what 'playing for a contract' looks like, look up Dupree's numbers last year and this.
Are there any RECENT rules changes  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 1:36 pm : link
that limits how many times you can Tag a player?
RE: Are there any RECENT rules changes  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15055895 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
that limits how many times you can Tag a player?


I don’t know if there’s a limit but next year it would cost about $20m to tag him again. So it’s technically an option and one I’d consider if he is looking for $20m a year and won’t budge down to $16-17m give/take. But it depends on the guarantees - if we can sign him to a Dee Ford type deal I’d do that in a heartbeat.
RE: RE: RE: Funny how Williams is playing much better when he's looking  
giants#1 : 11/24/2020 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15055612 Rory said:
Quote:



no defensive lineman will show an impact when you have a weak secondary (last year). Watch the games, Williams gets double teamed 90% of the time.

Now with Bradberry/Martinez being here things are different.


That's an excellent point. Williams did have 11 QBHits with the Giants last season. Having a CB like Bradberry that makes the QB hesitate a split second or go to his second read allows the rushers to turn a few of those hits into sacks.

Career averages (excluding 2020): 3.5 sacks 7 TFL 20 QBHits
2016: 7 sacks 11 TFL 19 QBHits
2017: 2 sacks 3 TFL 25 QBHits
2018: 5 sacks 11 TFL 20 QBHits
2020 (pro-rated): 8 sacks 11 TFL 26 QBHits

Career bests

His pro-rated numbers aren't that much better than his average and/or best seasons.
RE: RE: Are there any RECENT rules changes  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 1:45 pm : link
In comment 15055902 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055895 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


that limits how many times you can Tag a player?



I don’t know if there’s a limit but next year it would cost about $20m to tag him again. So it’s technically an option and one I’d consider if he is looking for $20m a year and won’t budge down to $16-17m give/take. But it depends on the guarantees - if we can sign him to a Dee Ford type deal I’d do that in a heartbeat.


Gotcha. Thanks buddy..
tag  
giants#1 : 11/24/2020 1:48 pm : link
I don't think they explicitly limit the number of times you can tag a player, but I believe the contract offer rises by 20% every year he's tagged, so it becomes prohibitive quickly. Only guy I can think of that was tagged consecutively was Kirk Cousins.

Also, Eagles dealt a 3rd(?) for half a season of Golden Tate before we signed him.
RE: So wouldnt that make the Sanu trade even worse?  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 2:40 pm : link
In comment 15055888 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
Williams is doing more in 1 game than Sanu ever did for the Pats. I don’t get your angle on this anyway. We don’t know when negotiations started and you can force either side to make a deal.

This situation would be easier to shit all over if he stunk but since he doesn’t finding things to complain about gets harder.


I didn't suggest Sanu was a good trade or player to sign. And I don't have an angle other than if LW is so good and critical that he should be signed. Don't argue with me...yell at the Gettleman.

And you can depart discussing the situation any time.
RE: RE: So wouldnt that make the Sanu trade even worse?  
section125 : 11/24/2020 2:42 pm : link
In comment 15055958 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055888 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


Williams is doing more in 1 game than Sanu ever did for the Pats. I don’t get your angle on this anyway. We don’t know when negotiations started and you can force either side to make a deal.

This situation would be easier to shit all over if he stunk but since he doesn’t finding things to complain about gets harder.



I didn't suggest Sanu was a good trade or player to sign. And I don't have an angle other than if LW is so good and critical that he should be signed. Don't argue with me...yell at the Gettleman.

And you can depart discussing the situation any time.


Do take special pleasure in being an arrogant a...
RE: RE: Are there any RECENT rules changes  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 2:44 pm : link
In comment 15055902 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055895 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


that limits how many times you can Tag a player?



I don’t know if there’s a limit but next year it would cost about $20m to tag him again. So it’s technically an option and one I’d consider if he is looking for $20m a year and won’t budge down to $16-17m give/take. But it depends on the guarantees - if we can sign him to a Dee Ford type deal I’d do that in a heartbeat.


Why tag him again? He should just be signed to an extended deal.

If they can't work it out then let him go to free agency and then match his best offer if the Giants can't live without him.

What's the problem with that?
RE: RE: RE: So wouldnt that make the Sanu trade even worse?  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15055959 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055958 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15055888 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


Williams is doing more in 1 game than Sanu ever did for the Pats. I don’t get your angle on this anyway. We don’t know when negotiations started and you can force either side to make a deal.

This situation would be easier to shit all over if he stunk but since he doesn’t finding things to complain about gets harder.



I didn't suggest Sanu was a good trade or player to sign. And I don't have an angle other than if LW is so good and critical that he should be signed. Don't argue with me...yell at the Gettleman.

And you can depart discussing the situation any time.



Do take special pleasure in being an arrogant a...


I'm not. Nor am I getting rude about the discussion in the thread.
RE: RE: So wouldnt that make the Sanu trade even worse?  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 2:50 pm : link
In comment 15055958 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055888 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


Williams is doing more in 1 game than Sanu ever did for the Pats. I don’t get your angle on this anyway. We don’t know when negotiations started and you can force either side to make a deal.

This situation would be easier to shit all over if he stunk but since he doesn’t finding things to complain about gets harder.



I didn't suggest Sanu was a good trade or player to sign. And I don't have an angle other than if LW is so good and critical that he should be signed. Don't argue with me...yell at the Gettleman.

And you can depart discussing the situation any time.


Ehh you called the poster out and you were given examples you weren’t thinking of which debunked your angle.

You’re the one arguing with anyone on anything that looks like it might be better than you predicted. Would be lovely to ever see you say “shit I got that one wrong” but alas, you can’t help yourself.
RE: RE: As if the loss of a 3rd round pick  
GMen72 : 11/24/2020 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15055538 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055527 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


set you back years..Countless times, many teams have screwed the pooch on their first, second and 3rd rounders. The man is solid, 26 years old and can anchor our line for years.

The trade is done. Let’s keep him if possible. If not, so be it..



BB56 can't agree more. The timing of the tarde may have caught folks off guard but, he is here and for a 3-4 (ish) he is a perfect fit for that. If we had a true Edge guy Williams numbers would be even better. At times he just mauls through guys and I think we need to keep him long term.


Agree? What if the Giants missed out on a stud player with one, or both, picks the gave up for Williams? Not to mention, he's making more this year than he should be (franchise tag), which means we'll seriously overpay when/if we resign him.

You can like the player, but it doesnt change the fact it was a terrible trade.
Eh nothing, nor did i call him out. I just knew examples of deals  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 2:58 pm : link
like this and not getting to a contract do not happen all the time. Mostly because it's bad business.

Nor did I predict anything on this deal. LW is playing good and he appears to be exactly the vision of what the GM wants to do with in building up this team. What I don't understand is why he is not signed longer term.
Price and the future cap  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 3:11 pm : link
I’m sure many players aren’t going to like the offers they get this year, really bad timing.

Williams was right for holding out for a better offer and taking the tag, bad news for him is that he’s likely not getting it in this market.
It will all come down to guaranteed money.  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 3:18 pm : link
I’m confident they’ll work it out. Imo.
RE: It will all come down to guaranteed money.  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 3:25 pm : link
In comment 15055996 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I’m confident they’ll work it out. Imo.


Maybe. But if not, there is a sure-fire way to sort out LW's approx. market value.
RE: RE: RE: Teams trade draft picks for impending free agents  
djm : 11/24/2020 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15055865 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055823 JB_in_DC said:


Quote:


In comment 15055804 LBH15 said:


Quote:


and then don't sign them to an extended deal...all the time?

Actually, I didn't realize it was so commonplace. Who are some of these guys?



Off the top of my head from last year there's Clowney (traded for a 3rd rd pick plus players to Seattle) and Sanu (for a 2nd rd pick to the Pats).



I think the Patriots just released Sanu. He was under contract. Clowney is more comparable, although he was left to just go into free agency.


Why do we seem to forget or ignore that Williams has been here now for nearly 2 years when this season is all said n done? What if the giants keep winning this season and win the east and Williams gets 2 sacks in the playoff game? Does that make the trade just a little better?

We have had Williams for nearly 2 seasons now. Doesn't that count for anything?
RE: RE: It will all come down to guaranteed money.  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15056004 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15055996 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I’m confident they’ll work it out. Imo.



Maybe. But if not, there is a sure-fire way to sort out LW's approx. market value.


Then it would have to be a Transition tag
RE: RE: RE: RE: Teams trade draft picks for impending free agents  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 3:39 pm : link
In comment 15056009 djm said:
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In comment 15055865 LBH15 said:


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In comment 15055823 JB_in_DC said:


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In comment 15055804 LBH15 said:


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and then don't sign them to an extended deal...all the time?

Actually, I didn't realize it was so commonplace. Who are some of these guys?



Off the top of my head from last year there's Clowney (traded for a 3rd rd pick plus players to Seattle) and Sanu (for a 2nd rd pick to the Pats).



I think the Patriots just released Sanu. He was under contract. Clowney is more comparable, although he was left to just go into free agency.



Why do we seem to forget or ignore that Williams has been here now for nearly 2 years when this season is all said n done? What if the giants keep winning this season and win the east and Williams gets 2 sacks in the playoff game? Does that make the trade just a little better?

We have had Williams for nearly 2 seasons now. Doesn't that count for anything?


He has basically played just over one full season for the Giants. Don't follow the logic. I am suggesting that the Giants should sign him longer-term because he matches the vision of the GM.
RE: RE: RE: It will all come down to guaranteed money.  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 3:40 pm : link
In comment 15056010 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15056004 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15055996 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I’m confident they’ll work it out. Imo.



Maybe. But if not, there is a sure-fire way to sort out LW's approx. market value.



Then it would have to be a Transition tag


Why?
RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
bw in dc : 11/24/2020 3:50 pm : link
In comment 15055595 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Redeploying his cap space to sign an edge rusher, a position which is even more expensive than a 3-4 DL and where there is a real risk of the acquired edge player being a bust due to a lack of fit.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.


Or, you redeploy that money you don't use on LW and beef up the secondary. It's not a bumper crop for top edge guys. So find a better counterpart to Bradberry and/or another slot corner.

Or look on the other side of the ball and add another WR. Another T/G or C for depth.

I'm growing more confident that Graham can scheme an effective pass rush without the big brand name to do it.
RE: RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 3:58 pm : link
In comment 15056039 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15055595 cosmicj said:


Quote:


Redeploying his cap space to sign an edge rusher, a position which is even more expensive than a 3-4 DL and where there is a real risk of the acquired edge player being a bust due to a lack of fit.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.



Or, you redeploy that money you don't use on LW and beef up the secondary. It's not a bumper crop for top edge guys. So find a better counterpart to Bradberry and/or another slot corner.

Or look on the other side of the ball and add another WR. Another T/G or C for depth.

I'm growing more confident that Graham can scheme an effective pass rush without the big brand name to do it.


But Williams is what this GM has in mind in building up this team. He could have "deployed" those resources differently but this DT is what he feels the team needs which is why he was traded for and sure as hell why he was franchised.

No?
RE: RE: RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
bw in dc : 11/24/2020 4:05 pm : link
In comment 15056049 LBH15 said:
Quote:

But Williams is what this GM has in mind in building up this team. He could have "deployed" those resources differently but this DT is what he feels the team needs which is why he was traded for and sure as hell why he was franchised.

No?


That trade was made pre-Judge. So I don't know how much he's committed to that idea.

Remember, if Judge subscribes to the Belichick School of Team Building, paying top dollar for DTs isn't a big priority. So it's going to be very interesting how this lands...
RE: RE: RE: RE: It will all come down to guaranteed money.  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 4:14 pm : link
In comment 15056030 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15056010 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15056004 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15055996 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I’m confident they’ll work it out. Imo.



Maybe. But if not, there is a sure-fire way to sort out LW's approx. market value.



Then it would have to be a Transition tag



Why?


The only way we’d have a GUARANTEED shot at matching ANY offer made to him, no?
RE: RE: RE: RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/24/2020 4:15 pm : link
In comment 15056060 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15056049 LBH15 said:


Quote:



But Williams is what this GM has in mind in building up this team. He could have "deployed" those resources differently but this DT is what he feels the team needs which is why he was traded for and sure as hell why he was franchised.

No?



That trade was made pre-Judge. So I don't know how much he's committed to that idea.

Remember, if Judge subscribes to the Belichick School of Team Building, paying top dollar for DTs isn't a big priority. So it's going to be very interesting how this lands...


Vince Wilfork says Hi.

I think the whole BB doesn't pay this or that is so overblown. BB pays players that stay healthy and our tops at their position. The NFL already has a sliding scale for what their positions are worth to account for positional importance. The people say he doesn't is because so often do teams pay their top 10-15 guys like top 5. That shit isn't smart. Let those guys walk and take the comp picks. LW is certainly a top 5 penetrating DT who stays healthy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 4:16 pm : link
In comment 15056060 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15056049 LBH15 said:


Quote:



But Williams is what this GM has in mind in building up this team. He could have "deployed" those resources differently but this DT is what he feels the team needs which is why he was traded for and sure as hell why he was franchised.

No?



That trade was made pre-Judge. So I don't know how much he's committed to that idea.

Remember, if Judge subscribes to the Belichick School of Team Building, paying top dollar for DTs isn't a big priority. So it's going to be very interesting how this lands...


Hmm, he better get his title changed then. Otherwise there will be some fireworks on this one.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It will all come down to guaranteed money.  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 4:19 pm : link
In comment 15056068 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15056030 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15056010 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15056004 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15055996 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I’m confident they’ll work it out. Imo.



Maybe. But if not, there is a sure-fire way to sort out LW's approx. market value.



Then it would have to be a Transition tag



Why?



The only way we’d have a GUARANTEED shot at matching ANY offer made to him, no?


Why would Williams not ensure the Giants are in the mix? Seemingly the almighty dollar is driving his strategy and no point in not driving up his demand. Hasn't that been his strategy?
It's not just the pick we traded  
widmerseyebrow : 11/24/2020 4:21 pm : link
It's the fact that we lost our leverage and will have to pay much more to keep him now that he's playing better.

It's indisputable that we will have to pay much more to sign him to a contract than if we had just signed him as a free agent when his value was perhaps at an all time low.

Trading a pick to rent him on a team that is going no where playoff-wise so he could boost his free agent value is just an extra kick in the nuts.
Because, as has been shown many times,  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 4:22 pm : link
A player’s word of letting their team match an offered contract, is quite tenuous..Oft times the player doesn’t leave without a contract from the new team that may covet him..

Zero chances with a transition tag..
RE: It's not just the pick we traded  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 4:24 pm : link
In comment 15056078 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
It's the fact that we lost our leverage and will have to pay much more to keep him now that he's playing better.

It's indisputable that we will have to pay much more to sign him to a contract than if we had just signed him as a free agent when his value was perhaps at an all time low.

Trading a pick to rent him on a team that is going no where playoff-wise so he could boost his free agent value is just an extra kick in the nuts.


Does it REALLY matter if we wind up paying a few million more per year in the scheme of things? That wouldn’t break the cap, imo
RE: Because, as has been shown many times,  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 4:33 pm : link
In comment 15056079 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
A player’s word of letting their team match an offered contract, is quite tenuous..Oft times the player doesn’t leave without a contract from the new team that may covet him..

Zero chances with a transition tag..


That is fair. They could have done the transition this year though and received that same assurance, but didn't.
RE: RE: It's not just the pick we traded  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 4:35 pm : link
In comment 15056080 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15056078 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


It's the fact that we lost our leverage and will have to pay much more to keep him now that he's playing better.

It's indisputable that we will have to pay much more to sign him to a contract than if we had just signed him as a free agent when his value was perhaps at an all time low.

Trading a pick to rent him on a team that is going no where playoff-wise so he could boost his free agent value is just an extra kick in the nuts.



Does it REALLY matter if we wind up paying a few million more per year in the scheme of things? That wouldn’t break the cap, imo


Exactly BB56. Why hasn't Gettleman just done that already if LW is his guy?
RE: RE: RE: It's not just the pick we traded  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 4:38 pm : link
In comment 15056096 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15056080 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15056078 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


It's the fact that we lost our leverage and will have to pay much more to keep him now that he's playing better.

It's indisputable that we will have to pay much more to sign him to a contract than if we had just signed him as a free agent when his value was perhaps at an all time low.

Trading a pick to rent him on a team that is going no where playoff-wise so he could boost his free agent value is just an extra kick in the nuts.



Does it REALLY matter if we wind up paying a few million more per year in the scheme of things? That wouldn’t break the cap, imo



Exactly BB56. Why hasn't Gettleman just done that already if LW is his guy?


Not sure
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
bw in dc : 11/24/2020 4:38 pm : link
In comment 15056071 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:


Vince Wilfork says Hi.

I think the whole BB doesn't pay this or that is so overblown. BB pays players that stay healthy and our tops at their position. The NFL already has a sliding scale for what their positions are worth to account for positional importance. The people say he doesn't is because so often do teams pay their top 10-15 guys like top 5. That shit isn't smart. Let those guys walk and take the comp picks. LW is certainly a top 5 penetrating DT who stays healthy.


Someone tried that Wilfork & Seymour move on me before. Alas, I don't think either contract ate up the % of the cap that LW's ask price will.

Well, I agree that BB is very malleable with his approach. But there is enough evidence out there that he targets under-valued assets over the big name of the moment. The examples are endless, and at almost every position it seems...

There are a few exceptions like Gilmore or Revis.

For crissakes, the guy has over two decades of personnel decisions to study. There are certainly misses, but there are a lot of hits...and hits with these undervalued assets.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The argument for not paying Williams comes down to  
bw in dc : 11/24/2020 4:40 pm : link
In comment 15056072 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15056060 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15056049 LBH15 said:


Quote:



But Williams is what this GM has in mind in building up this team. He could have "deployed" those resources differently but this DT is what he feels the team needs which is why he was traded for and sure as hell why he was franchised.

No?



That trade was made pre-Judge. So I don't know how much he's committed to that idea.

Remember, if Judge subscribes to the Belichick School of Team Building, paying top dollar for DTs isn't a big priority. So it's going to be very interesting how this lands...



Hmm, he better get his title changed then. Otherwise there will be some fireworks on this one.


This off-season is going to be very interesting to see how the delegations of authority really work with such uncertainty surrounding Gettleman's tenure...
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's not just the pick we traded  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 5:05 pm : link
In comment 15056097 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15056096 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15056080 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15056078 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


It's the fact that we lost our leverage and will have to pay much more to keep him now that he's playing better.

It's indisputable that we will have to pay much more to sign him to a contract than if we had just signed him as a free agent when his value was perhaps at an all time low.

Trading a pick to rent him on a team that is going no where playoff-wise so he could boost his free agent value is just an extra kick in the nuts.



Does it REALLY matter if we wind up paying a few million more per year in the scheme of things? That wouldn’t break the cap, imo



Exactly BB56. Why hasn't Gettleman just done that already if LW is his guy?



Not sure


At the beginning of this year, most posters defending this trade were expecting LW to get signed up in the $12-14M/year range. Now even a price tag of nearly $20M/year doesn't even phase some as an option as this gets discussed more.

LW has become an inelastic product to some degree in the eyes of many.
BBI may have “expected” 12-14,  
Big Blue '56 : 11/24/2020 5:10 pm : link
but was that ever realistic?
RE: BBI may have “expected” 12-14,  
bw in dc : 11/24/2020 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15056132 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
but was that ever realistic?


For the educated poster - no.

RE: BBI may have “expected” 12-14,  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 5:19 pm : link
In comment 15056132 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
but was that ever realistic?


Obviously Team LW would say no.
I said $16-18mm per year for LW after the trade.  
cosmicj : 11/24/2020 6:24 pm : link
You can look it up but just take my word for it. The COVID impact on sports revenues will lower that number and make LW rue the day he didn’t accept last offseason’s long term offer.
RE: RE: BBI may have “expected” 12-14,  
chopperhatch : 11/24/2020 7:12 pm : link
In comment 15056138 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15056132 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


but was that ever realistic?



For the educated poster - no.


Not many "educated posters" thought much of Will Grier, and they were right.
RE: RE: RE: BBI may have “expected” 12-14,  
bw in dc : 11/24/2020 7:20 pm : link
In comment 15056200 chopperhatch said:
Quote:


Not many "educated posters" thought much of Will Grier, and they were right.


Grier was a subjective idea.

Projecting LW's ask was simply math and understanding market comps. In other words, a fairly objective exercise.
RE: I said $16-18mm per year for LW after the trade.  
bw in dc : 11/24/2020 7:23 pm : link
In comment 15056178 cosmicj said:
Quote:
You can look it up but just take my word for it. The COVID impact on sports revenues will lower that number and make LW rue the day he didn’t accept last offseason’s long term offer.


It's going to be very interesting to see how that plays out.

If these vaccines are the game changers they are expected to be, that could accelerate a reset in revenues pretty quickly.
Players’ value changes all the time  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 7:24 pm : link
Peppers went from being cut (in the view of some) to picking up the 5th year option and potentially giving a long term contract to.

I definitely didn’t think DW would net $18m but that was then and this is now. He’s playing at a high level and it’s translating to a much better defense this year. This isn’t a hard concept to grasp and it doesn’t mean people we stupid for thinking he’d be less expensive last year.
A poster above details how he is basically playing  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 7:35 pm : link
at his same good, albeit average, level.

Nevertheless, if he keeps playing better I guess he should get more, right? So if the Giants make the playoffs and he gets 2 sacks in the playoff game (per djm example) do you want to give him above $20M/year? That would be then not now, so not hard to grasp.


You can’t help getting into it  
UConn4523 : 11/24/2020 8:04 pm : link
not going to bother, just not interested
RE: You can’t help getting into it  
LBH15 : 11/24/2020 8:12 pm : link
In comment 15056219 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
not going to bother, just not interested


Ok, it seemed like you were. But I must have got that one wrong.
RE: RE: It's not just the pick we traded  
widmerseyebrow : 11/24/2020 9:09 pm : link
In comment 15056080 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Does it REALLY matter if we wind up paying a few million more per year in the scheme of things? That wouldn’t break the cap, imo


Does it matter that the guy in charge doesn't seem to understand any of this? Uh, yes. It was a questionable move to begin with in a lost season, and without signing LW to a reasonable extension at the time of the trade it became indefensible.

It's definitely less than ideal to have a GM that is trading assets away in lost seasons to save his own ass.
By the way, you can think LW is a solid player in a vacuum  
widmerseyebrow : 11/24/2020 9:10 pm : link
And still believe the above. They can both be true.
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