So this is my personal pet peeve with Giants GM Dave Gettleman, but in three offseasons with the Giants he traded away the only good pass rusher (4-3 end or rushbacker) we had left and hasn't drafted a replacement or had a consistent veteran presence on the roster.
Carter and Ximines haven't quite panned out
Gettleman got cold feet on Josh Allen (of Jacksonville) because he really wanted Dexter Lawrence and Daniel Jones
Whatever pass-rushing specialists have only been signed to one-year deals
Since the Giants almost always have a good or great pass rush whenever they go anywhere in the postseason), it seems baffling to me that Gettleman is dragging his feet on improving the Giants' pass rush; he's been around the Giants long enough to know this.
And worse, Gettleman listed rushing the passer as one of his basic truths of football: "The thought process was, I really believe that as much as the style of play evolves, there are basic truths— you have to run the ball, you have to stop the run, you have to rush the passer. If you are seriously deficient in any one of those three areas, it makes it tough." Yet he hasn't improved the pass rush via the draft or free agency outside of scheme, we still need a guy or two who can consistently beat an offensive lineman one-on-one. He's merely slapped a band-aid on the problem; band-aids don't fix bullet holes.
Nobody waits past year 3 to add or fix a pass rush.
Remember the old adage by Ernie Accorsi that "You can never have too many pass rushers".
Sorry about ranting.
Identifying the Biggest Missing Element in Giants' Pass Rush (dated 8/6/2020) - (
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Who did he not sign that you wanted?
Clowney?
Trade for Yannick Ngakoue
Everson Griffen?
Jordan Jenkins (was a big name around here for a little bit, what happen to him?)
Shaq Lawson
Carl Nassib
Justin Houston
Trey Flowers
Anthony Barr
Za'Darius Smith *I wanted him*
Preston Smith *I also wanted him*
Claw Matthews
These are just some of the names I remember being thrown around on BBI.
He brought back Golden, that work in the sense they got a draft pick for him, but didn't help the pass rush much.
or was it
Draft Yetur Gross-Matos instead of McKinney?
The only guy on that list that I'd even want is Z Smith and I thought the deal he signed (4 yrs/$66M?) was a bit of a reach at the time.
I think Barr would thrive with JJ/PC, but that's due to his overall versatility more than his mediocre pass rush ability.
Who did he not sign that you wanted?
Clowney?
Trade for Yannick Ngakoue
Everson Griffen?
Jordan Jenkins (was a big name around here for a little bit, what happen to him?)
Shaq Lawson
Carl Nassib
Justin Houston
Trey Flowers
Anthony Barr
Za'Darius Smith *I wanted him*
Preston Smith *I also wanted him*
Claw Matthews
These are just some of the names I remember being thrown around on BBI.
He brought back Golden, that work in the sense they got a draft pick for him, but didn't help the pass rush much.
or was it
Draft Yetur Gross-Matos instead of McKinney?
Clay Matthews was one option I think the Giants should have looked into, there's also drafting Gross-Matos or Epenesa in this years draft, or Maxx Crosby over Oshane Ximines. To give examples.
And maybe we’ll see a TE later on.
Carter looked like everything we could have hoped for the first few games this season. He was active, stopping the run and getting after the QB.
We literally lost our best edge player in Carter and best offensive player in Barkley. We have talent, but the best players got hurt. We'd be 5-5 right now if Bark isn't out for the year or at least 4-6 and controlling our own destiny. Not an excuse but people can't wait to shovel shit on DG in every thread. Sometimes you need to be lucky. Those two injuries were the two we couldn't afford. The D has been fine but the O really took a step back when it lost #26.
Interestingly enough DG has sorta taken the (long range) same approach on the offensive side of the ball, with the huge (failed) exception of the Nate Solder signing as a vet frachise LT.
Drafted Hernandez, Saquon, Jones,brought in Zeitler and looked at Gates as a potential OC inbetween Will and Kevin...
Only then addressed the OT slots with draft picks Thomas and Peart.
And aside from the very successful flyer on Slayton at WR, hasnt invested boo at WR, although he patched OBJ's departure with Tate.
Will 2021 be the year to grab edge players: ER, WR, TE, OLB in the draft?
Well, of course that very much depends on whose avaiable at each draft slot. For sure they will grab a CB when the value looks good...
We're still getting gassed and gashed in the second half of games because our guys can't get to the QB fast enough and the WRs can get open.
Achilles's tendons repairs might be the trickiest of all sports injuries to return from to 100%. They have got to draft an ER this year, at minimum as a hedge against Carter's non return.
Or they see a LOT in Cam Brown or Carter Coughlin...
This seems pretty good, not great surely, but not bad. Are you ranting because you think we should be top 10?
In total sacks, I think they are seventh. And they are above-average in pressure applied for the year.
Graham has clearly taken a page out of the Belichick manual and stitched together Pass-Rush-by-Committee. And it's worked pretty damn well. This formula can actually work if you are very good on the back-end. So that is something to think about going forward...
Clowney? O sacks.....that guy.
Rant...rant all you want....but this is not a magic show.....pulling edge rusher out of the hat.
Argue about releasing JPP....not exactly a 3-4 edge....
And I still contend Lawrence Williams is a decent pass rusher....which will take off with a monster edge.....
Which we all agree is needed.
Clowney? O sacks.....that guy.
Rant...rant all you want....but this is not a magic show.....pulling edge rusher out of the hat.
Argue about releasing JPP....not exactly a 3-4 edge....
And I still contend Lawrence Williams is a decent pass rusher....which will take off with a monster edge.....
Which we all agree is needed.
good post
Based upon advanced stats, coverage that causes a QB to delay a pass is the most significant cause for a sack
Therefore, adding another lock down corner might do more to improve the sacks than a premier rusher.
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Lets see what he comes up with this off-season.
Who did he not sign that you wanted?
Clowney?
Trade for Yannick Ngakoue
Everson Griffen?
Jordan Jenkins (was a big name around here for a little bit, what happen to him?)
Shaq Lawson
Carl Nassib
Justin Houston
Trey Flowers
Anthony Barr
Za'Darius Smith *I wanted him*
Preston Smith *I also wanted him*
Claw Matthews
These are just some of the names I remember being thrown around on BBI.
He brought back Golden, that work in the sense they got a draft pick for him, but didn't help the pass rush much.
or was it
Draft Yetur Gross-Matos instead of McKinney?
Clay Matthews was one option I think the Giants should have looked into, there's also drafting Gross-Matos or Epenesa in this years draft, or Maxx Crosby over Oshane Ximines. To give examples.
Do you want to try again? Maybe you can pick better examples...Clay Matthews is a UFA, and would have been a 1yr deal, something you complained about in the opening comment. Maxx over X-men...that has nothing to do with "why the wait", one just turn out to be a better player than the other. This years draft is yet to be determined, but none of them are helping their team this year...Epenesa has even been inactive for 2 games this year. But that's fine, I'll take that as an example...not that its right or wrong pick...but sure that's an example of what you would have done different. That's what you are going to hang your hat on?
Clowney? O sacks.....that guy.
Rant...rant all you want....but this is not a magic show.....pulling edge rusher out of the hat.
Argue about releasing JPP....not exactly a 3-4 edge....
And I still contend Lawrence Williams is a decent pass rusher....which will take off with a monster edge.....
Which we all agree is needed.
Be a little careful here. Gettleman is on record saying he absolutely wanted Josh Allen with that first pick. And then it was reported he tried to immediately execute a trade up to pick him after he selected Daniel Jones. But Jax drafted him quickly.
The team needs a good edge rusher, badly. And if they don't come available to often in free agency then your GM should put together a credible draft strategy and select one. It's been 3 offseasons now of bypassing them.
Clowney? O sacks.....that guy.
Rant...rant all you want....but this is not a magic show.....pulling edge rusher out of the hat.
Argue about releasing JPP....not exactly a 3-4 edge....
And I still contend Lawrence Williams is a decent pass rusher....which will take off with a monster edge.....
Which we all agree is needed.
JPP's been playing 3-4 edge for the Bucs. Or at least that's what he's listed as.
Leonard Williams could definitely be better with a monster edge.
I hate “throw shit against the wall” posts with loads of examples, each one of which can be debated.
JPP may have transitioned to OLB and has rerurned to being a significant contributor in one of the best front 7s in the league (might be the very best) with legit 4 other playmakers there).
Carter was showing an awful before he got hurt this year.
Lastly, we took potentially our QB of the future who has shown quite a bit where we could have taken Allen (who has looked very meh the year after Yannick left), so I am not buying that either.
Like someone said, Im fine with blasting the Giants for taking Saquon over Chubb. But Saquon has been a far more explosive, game changing offensive player than Chubb has been a defensive player so that example is dissmissed as well.
If I'm looking at where the Giants should spend their blue chip FA and draft resources this off-season, I'd go heavy on the offensive line, TE, and WR. Offense wins in this league.
I hate “throw shit against the wall” posts with loads of examples, each one of which can be debated.
And Jones was 2nd all time in rookie TD passes his rookie year....so that argument is a wash
JPP may have transitioned to OLB and has rerurned to being a significant contributor in one of the best front 7s in the league (might be the very best) with legit 4 other playmakers there).
Carter was showing an awful before he got hurt this year.
Lastly, we took potentially our QB of the future who has shown quite a bit where we could have taken Allen (who has looked very meh the year after Yannick left), so I am not buying that either.
Like someone said, Im fine with blasting the Giants for taking Saquon over Chubb. But Saquon has been a far more explosive, game changing offensive player than Chubb has been a defensive player so that example is dismissed as well.
I was talking about JPP in the OP. And the return on that trade hasn't been great or even good, since B.J. Hill is merely a backup and Kyle Lauletta has barely played.
I would have been fine if we could have gotten Allen, Jones, and Dexter Lawrence in the same round instead of Deandre Baker.
If I'm looking at where the Giants should spend their blue chip FA and draft resources this off-season, I'd go heavy on the offensive line, TE, and WR. Offense wins in this league.
I've been on this for a few weeks, too. Belichick was great at finding undervalued assets from other rosters - Van Noy, Ninkovich, etc - who got consistent pressure around his scheme. And built a stout secondary instead. It's an interesting approach and one I don't mind if the right person is executing the idea...
I guess it's time to bash DG for taking Barkley over Bradley Chubb. Have at it.
Especially when you waste multiple picks on Williams and Baker.
Remember the paranoia over not signing Clowney. Titan fans have despise the signing. Golden was a good attempt but he shows us why he sat in FA.
Single blocked, they would be a handful.
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Given the structure of the defense and how Graham deploys it, I think I'd be more inclined to spend on the back 7. It may be informative to look at how New England has done things the past few years.
If I'm looking at where the Giants should spend their blue chip FA and draft resources this off-season, I'd go heavy on the offensive line, TE, and WR. Offense wins in this league.
I've been on this for a few weeks, too. Belichick was great at finding undervalued assets from other rosters - Van Noy, Ninkovich, etc - who got consistent pressure around his scheme. And built a stout secondary instead. It's an interesting approach and one I don't mind if the right person is executing the idea...
I agree with this approach as well. I think people don't realize football has evolved in the last 15 years. Secondary is more important than pass rush. You can't scheme around a good secondary, you can certainly scheme around pass rushers. A good pass rusher should be the icing on the cake, and we are almost there.
I have never minded spending on corners. And I've come around on safeties, too, if it's the right player. Like a Minkah Fitzpatrick type who is a swiss army knife - cover, run support, blitz, etc.
1. Stop the run. Check.
2. Run the ball. Oline is coming together, get SB back next year... check.
3. Get after the QB. Half a check. Doing it with scheme now. Expect a pass rushing OLB this off season.
This off season we will see a wr and olb added to complete the picture.
Huh what? We got a QB who has shown viable skills and posted considerable numbers in a year and a half as a starter instead of a pass rusher who, coming out, was knocked for being strickly north and south without pass rush moves who had a moderately good year playing oposite a pass rushing specialist and has regressed in year two.
What is hard to understand? Jones has been improving on a fairly successful rookie campaign without much in terms of weapons around him.
Allen has regressed once his successful linemate left and plays a less significant position.
Not sure why I had to explain that.
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Huh? I think everyone realizes getting Allen would mean no Jones. But writing off Allen like that poster did based on an anemic 2020 is misleading.
Huh what? We got a QB who has shown viable skills and posted considerable numbers in a year and a half as a starter instead of a pass rusher who, coming out, was knocked for being strickly north and south without pass rush moves who had a moderately good year playing oposite a pass rushing specialist and has regressed in year two.
What is hard to understand? Jones has been improving on a fairly successful rookie campaign without much in terms of weapons around him.
Allen has regressed once his successful linemate left and plays a less significant position.
Not sure why I had to explain that.
Yes, please explain how Jones has been improving so clearly in this second year versus his fairly successful rookie campaign?
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In comment 15055839 cosmicj said:
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Huh? I think everyone realizes getting Allen would mean no Jones. But writing off Allen like that poster did based on an anemic 2020 is misleading.
Huh what? We got a QB who has shown viable skills and posted considerable numbers in a year and a half as a starter instead of a pass rusher who, coming out, was knocked for being strickly north and south without pass rush moves who had a moderately good year playing oposite a pass rushing specialist and has regressed in year two.
What is hard to understand? Jones has been improving on a fairly successful rookie campaign without much in terms of weapons around him.
Allen has regressed once his successful linemate left and plays a less significant position.
Not sure why I had to explain that.
Yes, please explain how Jones has been improving so clearly in this second year versus his fairly successful rookie campaign?
I guess I have to spell it out for you because you are a child.
-Drastic improvement in utilizing his ability to run to the point o f multiple 40+ yard design runs
- two straight weeks of demonstrable ball security despite being hit by two very good defensive fronts without turning over the ball
- increasingly better release times despite having, until recently, one of the very worst pass pro lines in the game.
If you aren't seeing marked improvement and this coming after switching OCs after his rookie year, then you are either being intentionally ignorant or are just stupid. I wouldnt dismiss the latter with you Gpogs.
Ok....I did cosmic....maybe I am missing something other than your intimating our having Josh Allen on D would be providing different current results as a team in terms of being better than we are. What I am saying is if we take Josh Allen instead of Jones, we would have had to ride with a done Eli behind a shit line last year, probably gotten a bit more pass rush having Allen (and as such prob not making the move for LW), but watching him get swallowed up in the run game all while watching Eli die behing an O line that was not just poorly coached but talent deficient and be in the same draft position this year.
We took our QB last year.He looked "good" from many media sources, but still a roomie. This year, we expected a major leap which I felt was unreasonable based on the offseason. I personally loved him out of college. He has/had a major problem with turning the ball over. Last two games that hasnt been the case.
Bottom line, Josh Allen the DE vs Daniel Jones the QB, so far I prefer the QB's performance.
If Im misreading you, please correct me.
Has he not the past two games Googs?
Dude, you need to stop.
Also, there have been at least 2 games where DJ made the plays to win the game but his teammates let him down. Like EE's drops. Like Dion Lewis' fumble against the Eagles. Those results go the other way, you are probably singing a different tune.
You’re kind of a dink Chompers.
You’re kind of a dink Chompers.
Okay, now lets complete the rest of the stat line meatball....
-244 yards passing (0 TDs passing according to FB ref dummy), 75% completion and 0 picks
- 64 yards rushing, 1 TD (one called back from a shitty hold)
- O fumbles despite being sacked 3 times
THAT is a strong game and a marked improvement over his first 8 games this year...in a new offense, missing his best weapon on O and having 3/5 new players on his O line
Tell me again why anybody considers your opinition
But you said improvement since his rookie year, didn’t you Chompers?
But you said improvement since his rookie year, didn’t you Chompers?
I said he has shown improvement over the last two games in terms of ball security.
Im not dealing with you any more meatball. Nobody takes you seriously.
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to go from the 30th best starting QB to about the 25th.
But you said improvement since his rookie year, didn’t you Chompers?
I said he has shown improvement over the last two games in terms of ball security.
Im not dealing with you any more meatball. Nobody takes you seriously.
No, you said this in your earlier post. That he was clarly improving on his rookie year.
Come on chomp, keep up if you want to debate with the high school graduate crowd.
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In comment 15056299 LBH15 said:
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to go from the 30th best starting QB to about the 25th.
But you said improvement since his rookie year, didn’t you Chompers?
I said he has shown improvement over the last two games in terms of ball security.
Im not dealing with you any more meatball. Nobody takes you seriously.
No, you said this in your earlier post. That he was clarly improving on his rookie year.
Come on chomp, keep up if you want to debate with the high school graduate crowd.
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What is hard to understand? Jones has been improving on a fairly successful rookie campaign without much in terms of weapons around him.
Ok, I'll play one more time to try and illustrate a point you refuse to accept.
Hos numbers are largely similar last year THROUGH 13 games as they are this year theough 10. The discrepancies being he through many more TD passesblast year through 13 than this year. But, his he has shown an incredible ability as a running QB this year to where he is already up 100 yards as a rushing QB.
All that is inconsequential to me to the progress he hass shown protecting the football. The numbers this year dont concern me as much because of the new line. However, his protecting the ball the last two hames is progress. Ignore it if you want, other QBs dont take that step and he is apparently buying in to it.
Sorry if you cant see it.
However, DJ didn't improve. In fact, he showed clear signs of regression in throwing the ball and scoring TDs, but with same disastrous turnover rate for most of this season.
Now, as you continue to move the goalposts with your comments, which were poorly stated in several posts above, we finally get to the crux of your mind-blowing football analysis that is astounding this board...Jones didn't turn the ball over the last 2 games so that's an improvement!
Nice job...quite an observation that everybody here has overlooked in how the Giants finally won 2 games in a row.
Looking forward to your next breakdown chompers.
This should NOT be about whether you think Jones was the right QB selection because we still do not know how that will play out yet.
However, the idea that we should have drafted a pass rusher instead when we needed a QB is ridiculous. Maybe end up with Haskins instead at #17 or who knows who else because we used the #6 for a different position.
Would love to see what the threads here would look like when we are two years from Eli being retired and have shit to show for a QB and a pass rusher whose production could have been replaced rounds later.
Some of you people confirm the stupidity here on a daily basis.