Was knowing some how Cinci would probably have a chance to win the game at the end.....and they almost did had there not been a fumble.
I bet I wasn’t alone either....I bet 90% of us here just knew they would score a TD or FG to cut it to either 1 or 6 and then we would go 3 and out and give them the ball back to win?
Well obviously we knew they were going to score, that's how they attack that situation in NFL, rightly so. The thing is we got a ticky tack PI call, the Bengals didn't make any mistakes, and LW with the dumb penalty. Take away any of those and we are talking about them scoring and then having to do an onside kick.
I didn't mind the flag in the PI in the end zone. I thought it was PI.
The lengths the league goes to protect QBs is just preposterous. LW merely pushed Allen. He didn't hit or tackle him. Allen acted like he got shot by the shooter on the grassy knoll...So that call really bothered me.
The idea that pushing a QB is a 15 yard penalty is absurd. You want to throw a 5 yard flag and no auto first sure? But roughing the passer should be reserved for actually roughing the passer.
Right. There is nothing "roughing" about a push.
No helmet to helmet. Nothing low. No body slam. No hitting in the face. Etc. Etc.
First place Giants and a young team and a young HC get to play some meaningful football in December. That’s good!
My biggest kvetch is not sticking with Gallman as the feature back. I just don’t understand why Morris is getting any touches. Gallman could have had 100 rushing today if he got Morris snaps and he may well have put the game away if he ran the ball instead of that stupid sweep with McCoy. Just pound the ball with Gallman and this game probably wasn’t close at the end.
But, yeah, I’m happy the Giants are in first place. Not because I think they’re gonna make a playoff run but because they’ll keep playing meaningful football games as the season grinds on. For the first time in a long while it seems like the Giants building something and that includes winning ugly on the road, off the bye and against a lousy team.
I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
Does not finishing drives even when Jones was in the game not a negative? If they finish some of those drives it doesn’t come down to needing a strip sack to close it out.
It’s ok for there to be negatives in a win. Don’t need to excuse away everything.
I didn't mind the flag in the PI in the end zone. I thought it was PI.
The lengths the league goes to protect QBs is just preposterous. LW merely pushed Allen. He didn't hit or tackle him. Allen acted like he got shot by the shooter on the grassy knoll...So that call really bothered me.
The idea that pushing a QB is a 15 yard penalty is absurd. You want to throw a 5 yard flag and no auto first sure? But roughing the passer should be reserved for actually roughing the passer.
Right. There is nothing "roughing" about a push.
No helmet to helmet. Nothing low. No body slam. No hitting in the face. Etc. Etc.
Just a bastardized interpretation of the rule.
Come on bw - that shove gets a flag about 9 times out of 10
Now it’s boo hoo, we barely beat a bad team. Whatever happened to this team needs to learn how to win? Or is it, this team needs to learn how to win and look good in the process now? You people suck.
Honestly I do t care about the Ws or Ls this year, never did. I like Judge and like what he’s building, but we need more talent. I’m fine if Jones sits a while we play well down the stretch even if dint win many, then look forward to putting things together next year.
RE: Week after week all I heard was no moral victories
Now it’s boo hoo, we barely beat a bad team. Whatever happened to this team needs to learn how to win? Or is it, this team needs to learn how to win and look good in the process now? You people suck.
Honestly I do t care about the Ws or Ls this year, never did. I like Judge and like what he’s building, but we need more talent. I’m fine if Jones sits a while we play well down the stretch even if dint win many, then look forward to putting things together next year.
We are in desperate need of a big WR. Slayton would be a great #2 and Shepherd a great #3
Anyway, at half time I was pretty convinced the game would go to the Giants. They were controlling the game just not capitalizing. That was bound to come.
Then Jones when out....which was big. On the heels of a potential score.
I have really no complaints other than the last 3 minutes that was aided by some bad decisions (both Giants and refs).
BTW, this win goes to Jones I believe, as he started the game.
RE: Week after week all I heard was no moral victories
Now it’s boo hoo, we barely beat a bad team. Whatever happened to this team needs to learn how to win? Or is it, this team needs to learn how to win and look good in the process now? You people suck.
Honestly I do t care about the Ws or Ls this year, never did. I like Judge and like what he’s building, but we need more talent. I’m fine if Jones sits a while we play well down the stretch even if dint win many, then look forward to putting things together next year.
*mic drop*
RE: Week after week all I heard was no moral victories
Now it’s boo hoo, we barely beat a bad team. Whatever happened to this team needs to learn how to win? Or is it, this team needs to learn how to win and look good in the process now? You people suck.
threw to a covered receiver within 5-10 yards of the LOS. Each time the receiver was blanketed and it looked like a few of those throws were headed for an INT. When Daniel Jones throws short, he's got to quicken his stroke. He's got to dart it out, not wind up! He also seriously needs a new receiver which the Giants (I hope) will draft in Round 1 or 2 next year
My point is that I don't agree with the implication that the offense was just humming along great until Jones got hurt.
They were moving the ball but not scoring. When Jones went out they were in field goal range and at least due to turnovers were in FG range or close to it two more times. The offense could have put up close to 30 with Jones in there regardless of early missteps.
always seeking to be against us. Agree with BW, they call on LW was overly ticky tack. What had me peeved, is the PI and the non- PI on Tate. McCoy’s pass was perfect. Tate’s left arm was CLEARLY hooked where he couldn’t even reach for the ball. NO call. Be consistent. Call both or neither.
My point is that I don't agree with the implication that the offense was just humming along great until Jones got hurt.
But we were humming along pretty well. We had 250+ yards when Jones got hurt and we had converted over 50% of our 3rd down conversions. When Jones left the game, the Giants had outgained the Bengals more than 2 to 1, had 3:1 ratio of first downs and held the ball twice as long. and that was still with Engram fumbling in the red zone.
I'm pretty sure the gameplan going into the week was to control the ball, give the Bengals long fields to work with and not make mistakes.
Scoring points is the objective and they weren’t doing that even with Jones despite piling up yardage.
You should have been alive when the giants won the SB against Buffalo to see The masterful gameplan.
Was absolutely bullshit. Those that say otherwise just dont know the game. The LW penalty was absolutely a PF. He took like 2 full steps and shoved Allen.
Was absolutely bullshit. Those that say otherwise just dont know the game. The LW penalty was absolutely a PF. He took like 2 full steps and shoved Allen.
The rare correct post. Almost mind boggling based on the author.
are games we have lost in the past. So, although it was ugly.. we have to embrace the fact that they pulled it out.
You think that's because of some measurable increase in talent/coaching or just a favorable dice roll? I think today could easily fall into the latter category.
Defense comes up with a sack fumble with Bengals 15 yards from the winning FG, and you say it was luck!
How many times in the past 9 seasons have you seen a Giants defense do that.
I could disagree with your take more,
I have complete confidence in Colt McCoy going forward.
This guys was nails tough for U of T and was on some really crappy NFL OL teams. He is going to get a chance to shine with this young offensive line at a week to prep.
but it wasn't today. Two plays I didn't understand were the McCoy run wide where he went out of bounds, and the 3rd and 2 incompletion on the shot to Tate down the right sideline.
Nevertheless, ugly wins are better than the moral victories we've grown used to the past few years. Take the W and get the hell on the plane back to NJ.
You should have been alive when the giants won the SB against Buffalo to see The masterful gameplan.
Yep, that's exactly what this was, a masterful gameplan to avoid the high powered.....Bengals offense with Brandon Allen. Needing a sack and fumble to hold on against a horrid team is exactly how they drew it up.
RE: Clock management has been a strength all year,
but it wasn't today. Two plays I didn't understand were the McCoy run wide where he went out of bounds, and the 3rd and 2 incompletion on the shot to Tate down the right sideline.
Nevertheless, ugly wins are better than the moral victories we've grown used to the past few years. Take the W and get the hell on the plane back to NJ.
Nothing wrong with the call for McCoy to run wide. That is 100% on him to not go out of bounds.
But, we must lead the league in almost offense and could have offense. We controlled the time of possession, which is a good thing. But, the bottom line is we didn't score. What is this, we could have have put up 30 points nonsense? We didn't. We had 10 points and were stuck in a defensive battle at the half against one of the few teams worse than us in a game that virtually everyone thought we should win going away.
At the end of the day, I'm happy with the win. I just don't want this written off as McCoy came in and that's why it was a 1 point game.
McCoy should be better with a full week of practice. That said, Seattle was probably a longshot with or without Jones. To have any shot in this game, the D will need to be perfect.
There is absolutely no way Fleming should start. Peart should be at RT.
The ST was not good today. But, let's not overreact. ST, as a whole, have been very good this year. I expect them to continue to play well moving forward.
Right. And in those 9 out of 10 times the call is still preposterous.
I don't think so. He took a couple of steps, got his hands on the QB, and then extended his arms and shoved. If he did all that and didn't shove Allen, there's no call. Shoving the QB to the ground 2 steps after the ball was released is going to get a flag.
I would honestly be less annoyed if he was moving full speed and hit Allen. That is almost uncontrollable. What Williams did was 100% avoidable and that is why it gets flagged.
I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
First place Giants and a young team and a young HC get to play some meaningful football in December. That’s good!
My biggest kvetch is not sticking with Gallman as the feature back. I just don’t understand why Morris is getting any touches. Gallman could have had 100 rushing today if he got Morris snaps and he may well have put the game away if he ran the ball instead of that stupid sweep with McCoy. Just pound the ball with Gallman and this game probably wasn’t close at the end.
But, yeah, I’m happy the Giants are in first place. Not because I think they’re gonna make a playoff run but because they’ll keep playing meaningful football games as the season grinds on. For the first time in a long while it seems like the Giants building something and that includes winning ugly on the road, off the bye and against a lousy team.
Gallman had more than 20 carries as it is. While there are spots late in the game it would have been nice to have had Gallman on the field, it really isn't in their plans to give him the ball 25+ times, nor do I think it should be. Now, maybe that means Morris should have had more touches earlier in the game.
With his special teams tackle at the end of the game. Yet nobody seems to be mentioning him because of how bad our STs were in general. I see Judge mentioned it post game, that was the effort play of the game and possibly season. That play deserves more love and Cam Brown deserves more credit for making it. An awesome play.
With his special teams tackle at the end of the game. Yet nobody seems to be mentioning him because of how bad our STs were in general. I see Judge mentioned it post game, that was the effort play of the game and possibly season. That play deserves more love and Cam Brown deserves more credit for making it. An awesome play.
Osi, I don't think many fans (myself included) have enough perspective to appreciate that play for it's true value
Gallman had more than 20 carries as it is. While there are spots late in the game it would have been nice to have had Gallman on the field, it really isn't in their plans to give him the ball 25+ times, nor do I think it should be. Now, maybe that means Morris should have had more touches earlier in the game.
Why not give Gallman the ball 25+ carries? They should use Lewis on passing downs to spell Gallman but keep it between those two unless there’s an injury or garbage time. I just don’t see what they gain by running Morris out there. Makes no sense to me.
I've never seen a team do less than the Bengals and have a chance to win. A KR for a TD, a bad turnover by the Giants deep in scoring range, a bad hold by the Giants and a bad PI call in the end zone and they almost won.
They did one good thing: their opening KR. Other than that they did nothing. And almost won.
What a tragedy it would've been to lose that game.
For those griping about the special teams - the Bengals quietly have outstanding specials. Their KR lead the league last year, and they can cover. That snap on the fake punt was pretty damn good - I've never seen that before. They almost did just enough to bullshit a win.
There was a game in 05 or so, I think against the Seahawks where we lost 24-21 and gave up 3 points on defense on the final drive of the game. But this was close.
Was knowing some how Cinci would probably have a chance to win the game at the end.....and they almost did had there not been a fumble.
I bet I wasn’t alone either....I bet 90% of us here just knew they would score a TD or FG to cut it to either 1 or 6 and then we would go 3 and out and give them the ball back to win?
This is such a negative take. Instead of being happy that we won a game they would have lost earlier in the year you're criticizing them because we thought they would lose.
I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
This team has been mediocre and sometimes even bad on offense all season. Why are you shocked? No one's confusing them with Kansas City. Despite all that Jones had the most yards passing in a first half in his career. Sure that's not more important than points but they played much better than the score.
Just because I, and others are not doing black flips over this win, does not mean we are miserable. We all appreciate the win. The vast majority of the takes are that it was good to win this game, it was a game that this team would have lost in the recent past and that is improvement.
However, it was an ugly win over a crappy team that was missing their starting QB and RB. This team is still 4-7 and will struggle to get to 6 wins. It's still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination. It's a win that should help them learn how to win, and that is a good thing. Just because, I and some others have a little perspective on what this win means does not mean we are miserable. Acknowledging small improvement gives us glimmers of hope for the future. But the future isn't here yet for this team
The biggest improvement in the team, by a long mile, has been the coaching staff. To some extent that is better that improving the players. The coaching staff is more stable. Players come and go. And I believe this staff still has plenty of room to grow. Combine that with some improved players and we may see some winning football soon.
Just because I, and others are not doing black flips over this win, does not mean we are miserable. We all appreciate the win. The vast majority of the takes are that it was good to win this game, it was a game that this team would have lost in the recent past and that is improvement.
However, it was an ugly win over a crappy team that was missing their starting QB and RB. This team is still 4-7 and will struggle to get to 6 wins. It's still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination. It's a win that should help them learn how to win, and that is a good thing. Just because, I and some others have a little perspective on what this win means does not mean we are miserable. Acknowledging small improvement gives us glimmers of hope for the future. But the future isn't here yet for this team
The biggest improvement in the team, by a long mile, has been the coaching staff. To some extent that is better that improving the players. The coaching staff is more stable. Players come and go. And I believe this staff still has plenty of room to grow. Combine that with some improved players and we may see some winning football soon.
I like the way you debate McL, laying out your points in a logical, easy to follow flow. Your points come off as well reasoned, too, until examined carefully when they largely fall apart, because the are loaded with unproven assumptions, and of course, like pretty much everyone the optimists here call "miserable", they ignore many facts which oppose them.
What some of us see the "miserable" doing are the following:
1) Boil everything down to W-L... Unless of course the W is ugly, then the W-L is less important than "style" points, and these style points are wholly abitrary because they don't include so much other positive data like the following
2) In a game like yesterday's the miserable focus ONLY on the score amd claim the Giants didn't dominate as they should, when stats aside from the score show the Giants did indeed dominate via other measures:
First downs earned
Passing yards and rushing yards each
Time of possession
Plays ran on offense
3) Create straw men as facts:
"Giants will struggle to get to 6 wins"
"Still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination"
What I would like for the miserable to do is STFU until we see the results over the next 4 games, all vs opponents with WINNING RECORDS.
A 1-7 team has won 3 games in a row, all vs struggling opponents, to achieve a 4-7 record. The remaining 5 games are against 4 winners and one loser with some crazy offensive skills players. If the Giants go 3-2 over those remaining 5 games, they will almost certainly win their division.
Let's wait until that unfolds (or doesn't) before classifying this team too harshly, and missing out on their rapidly improving aspects.
Just because I, and others are not doing black flips over this win, does not mean we are miserable. We all appreciate the win. The vast majority of the takes are that it was good to win this game, it was a game that this team would have lost in the recent past and that is improvement.
However, it was an ugly win over a crappy team that was missing their starting QB and RB. This team is still 4-7 and will struggle to get to 6 wins. It's still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination. It's a win that should help them learn how to win, and that is a good thing. Just because, I and some others have a little perspective on what this win means does not mean we are miserable. Acknowledging small improvement gives us glimmers of hope for the future. But the future isn't here yet for this team
The biggest improvement in the team, by a long mile, has been the coaching staff. To some extent that is better that improving the players. The coaching staff is more stable. Players come and go. And I believe this staff still has plenty of room to grow. Combine that with some improved players and we may see some winning football soon.
I like the way you debate McL, laying out your points in a logical, easy to follow flow. Your points come off as well reasoned, too, until examined carefully when they largely fall apart, because the are loaded with unproven assumptions, and of course, like pretty much everyone the optimists here call "miserable", they ignore many facts which oppose them.
What some of us see the "miserable" doing are the following:
1) Boil everything down to W-L... Unless of course the W is ugly, then the W-L is less important than "style" points, and these style points are wholly abitrary because they don't include so much other positive data like the following
2) In a game like yesterday's the miserable focus ONLY on the score amd claim the Giants didn't dominate as they should, when stats aside from the score show the Giants did indeed dominate via other measures:
First downs earned
Passing yards and rushing yards each
Time of possession
Plays ran on offense
3) Create straw men as facts:
"Giants will struggle to get to 6 wins"
"Still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination"
What I would like for the miserable to do is STFU until we see the results over the next 4 games, all vs opponents with WINNING RECORDS.
A 1-7 team has won 3 games in a row, all vs struggling opponents, to achieve a 4-7 record. The remaining 5 games are against 4 winners and one loser with some crazy offensive skills players. If the Giants go 3-2 over those remaining 5 games, they will almost certainly win their division.
Let's wait until that unfolds (or doesn't) before classifying this team too harshly, and missing out on their rapidly improving aspects.
What I would like is for jerks to stop labeling people, and stop telling people to STFU!!!
Strawmen?
Quote:
3) Create straw men as facts:
"Giants will struggle to get to 6 wins"
"Still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination"
The Bengals are a crappy team. Look at my posts. I said that it's good to beat crappy teams. That is improvement.
The Giants made a ton of mistakes in this game, mistakes they can't afford to make against non-crappy teams. THe Giants are still learning how to win. Beating crappy teams is a good start. But, seriously dude, do you really think the Giants are a "good" team... Good teams usually have double digit wins. Sometimes they come together late, and only post 9, but mostly double digit. Look around the league. Are the Giants in the same category as the Seahawks, Rams, Sainsts, Bucs, Packers, Bills, Dolphins, Colts, Steelers, Browns, Chiefs? Those are good teams. I don't think it's a "strawman" to say the Giants are not in that category "by any stretch of the imagination".
The remaining games are against the Seahawks, Cardinals, Browns, Ravens and Cowboys. Find me 2 wins in there. Personally I think the odds are against 2 more wins. Especially if DJ is out for any length of time.
I think you should start examining your own arguments.
Oh and talk about strawmen...
Quote:
missing out on their rapidly improving aspects.
Improving, yes... Improving rapidly... Meh, not so much. They have beaten 3 really crappy teams (WFT twice). That's good, but let's not go awarding them any Lombardys yet. Let's see them get to 500 at least before making grand statements about them.
And again... WE ARE NOT MISERABLE...
Tell you what, lets call you and your lot The Angry Fantasizers. How's that... Man I would like for all you Angry Fantasizers to just take a dose of reality pills, and STFU... Does that feel good for you... Felt good for me!
Are the Giants in the same category as the Seahawks, Rams, Sainsts, Bucs, Packers, Bills, Dolphins, Colts, Steelers, Browns, Chiefs?
Among those teams the Giants have played the Rams, Bucs, and Steelers - all of them very competitively and BEFORE their largely inexperienced OL began to come together? Before Logan Ryan "learned" his teammates and stitched them together. Before Jabril Peppers emerged and morphed into a defensive force? Before Coach Graham learned his DBs were much better suited to zone than man to man schemes...
And your point was the Giants aren't even in the same class as them?
I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
Matt - The complaints seem to be about the points, and ignoring the stats. When Jones left the game, the Giants had 2:1 advantages in TOP and yards. They had a 3:1 advantage in first downs. They were dominating the game statistically. Even at the end, they were significantly better. The Bengals got a TD on a kick return and a gift TD at the end on a terrible call. But many, including yourself are acting as if the game were in peril had Jones still stayed in.
We just missed slayton on a long bomb. McCoy missed a wide-open Lewis for a TD. Those types of plays factor into the points scored issue. I'm not sure why people are getting hung up on the points here. We lost Jones and still won a game that in the recent past, we would have lost. And though we didn't dominate on the scoreboard, we did statistically. On both sides of teh ball.
I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
Matt - The complaints seem to be about the points, and ignoring the stats. When Jones left the game, the Giants had 2:1 advantages in TOP and yards. They had a 3:1 advantage in first downs. They were dominating the game statistically. Even at the end, they were significantly better. The Bengals got a TD on a kick return and a gift TD at the end on a terrible call. But many, including yourself are acting as if the game were in peril had Jones still stayed in.
We just missed slayton on a long bomb. McCoy missed a wide-open Lewis for a TD. Those types of plays factor into the points scored issue. I'm not sure why people are getting hung up on the points here. We lost Jones and still won a game that in the recent past, we would have lost. And though we didn't dominate on the scoreboard, we did statistically. On both sides of teh ball.
Thank you! And THEY WON THE DAMN GAME!. They closed it out. They did exactly what Eric has been pointing out (correctly) that they needed to learn how to do in order to have their improvement show up in the W-Ls.
I think alot of people here underestimate Colt McCoy, He is no slouch
and will play very well in Seattle knowing he is going to get first team reps in practice. Colt has a big chip on his shoulder from all the crap OL he had to ork with over the years and he is out for a reckoning to change the narrative on his career.
I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
Matt - The complaints seem to be about the points, and ignoring the stats. When Jones left the game, the Giants had 2:1 advantages in TOP and yards. They had a 3:1 advantage in first downs. They were dominating the game statistically. Even at the end, they were significantly better. The Bengals got a TD on a kick return and a gift TD at the end on a terrible call. But many, including yourself are acting as if the game were in peril had Jones still stayed in.
We just missed slayton on a long bomb. McCoy missed a wide-open Lewis for a TD. Those types of plays factor into the points scored issue. I'm not sure why people are getting hung up on the points here. We lost Jones and still won a game that in the recent past, we would have lost. And though we didn't dominate on the scoreboard, we did statistically. On both sides of teh ball.
Last I checked it's the team with the most points that wins, not the team with the prettiest stats...
That said, the complaints are about the mistakes that kept Cinci in this game when they had no right to be there. Dropped passes, missed throws to open receivers, missed tackles (especially on specials), penalties, the fumble, etc. It's not the stats, its not the final score (they won so the margin doesn't matter) it was the self inflicted wounds. Yes, these things happen to good teams too, although not too often against crappy teams like Cinci...
Are the Giants in the same category as the Seahawks, Rams, Sainsts, Bucs, Packers, Bills, Dolphins, Colts, Steelers, Browns, Chiefs?
Among those teams the Giants have played the Rams, Bucs, and Steelers - all of them very competitively and BEFORE their largely inexperienced OL began to come together? Before Logan Ryan "learned" his teammates and stitched them together. Before Jabril Peppers emerged and morphed into a defensive force? Before Coach Graham learned his DBs were much better suited to zone than man to man schemes...
And your point was the Giants aren't even in the same class as them?
SMH.
The wins give reason for a modicum of optimism. So it's not like we are not happy about them or that they are being discounted. It's just that there is a measured approach to what they signify.
You are projecting some ugly wins over some really crappy teams into wins over some really good teams...
With his special teams tackle at the end of the game. Yet nobody seems to be mentioning him because of how bad our STs were in general. I see Judge mentioned it post game, that was the effort play of the game and possibly season. That play deserves more love and Cam Brown deserves more credit for making it. An awesome play.
Osi, I don't think many fans (myself included) have enough perspective to appreciate that play for it's true value
In all my years being on this website (15+... damn), I think this tackle by Brown is maybe the most underappreciated play I've seen. He may have saved the season with a great effort shoestring tackle. The Bengals would've easily been in FG range if he didn't make that tackle, and might have even taken it all the way.
Maybe because it came at the end of a terrible STs coverage play in a game where STs coverage was awful for the team, but this was just an enormous play. Losing to the garbage Bengals on a game-winning punt return TD would have been absolutely crushing. This entire site would've been an absolute shitshow today if Brown doesn't make that tackle. Thank you Cam Brown, Biggest Play of the Season.
Well said. Personally, I didn't notice it right away because I was too busy throwing a fit because I was sure they were about to blow it. I believe my exact words were, Make the tackle!! They're gonna lose this fucking game!
My wife gave me the, "I thought you were over letting football games negatively affect you" look.
I bet I wasn’t alone either....I bet 90% of us here just knew they would score a TD or FG to cut it to either 1 or 6 and then we would go 3 and out and give them the ball back to win?
Well obviously we knew they were going to score, that's how they attack that situation in NFL, rightly so. The thing is we got a ticky tack PI call, the Bengals didn't make any mistakes, and LW with the dumb penalty. Take away any of those and we are talking about them scoring and then having to do an onside kick.
I didn't mind the flag in the PI in the end zone. I thought it was PI.
The lengths the league goes to protect QBs is just preposterous. LW merely pushed Allen. He didn't hit or tackle him. Allen acted like he got shot by the shooter on the grassy knoll...So that call really bothered me.
The idea that pushing a QB is a 15 yard penalty is absurd. You want to throw a 5 yard flag and no auto first sure? But roughing the passer should be reserved for actually roughing the passer.
Right. There is nothing "roughing" about a push.
No helmet to helmet. Nothing low. No body slam. No hitting in the face. Etc. Etc.
Just a bastardized interpretation of the rule.
My biggest kvetch is not sticking with Gallman as the feature back. I just don’t understand why Morris is getting any touches. Gallman could have had 100 rushing today if he got Morris snaps and he may well have put the game away if he ran the ball instead of that stupid sweep with McCoy. Just pound the ball with Gallman and this game probably wasn’t close at the end.
But, yeah, I’m happy the Giants are in first place. Not because I think they’re gonna make a playoff run but because they’ll keep playing meaningful football games as the season grinds on. For the first time in a long while it seems like the Giants building something and that includes winning ugly on the road, off the bye and against a lousy team.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
Does not finishing drives even when Jones was in the game not a negative? If they finish some of those drives it doesn’t come down to needing a strip sack to close it out.
It’s ok for there to be negatives in a win. Don’t need to excuse away everything.
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I didn't mind the flag in the PI in the end zone. I thought it was PI.
The lengths the league goes to protect QBs is just preposterous. LW merely pushed Allen. He didn't hit or tackle him. Allen acted like he got shot by the shooter on the grassy knoll...So that call really bothered me.
The idea that pushing a QB is a 15 yard penalty is absurd. You want to throw a 5 yard flag and no auto first sure? But roughing the passer should be reserved for actually roughing the passer.
Right. There is nothing "roughing" about a push.
No helmet to helmet. Nothing low. No body slam. No hitting in the face. Etc. Etc.
Just a bastardized interpretation of the rule.
Honestly I do t care about the Ws or Ls this year, never did. I like Judge and like what he’s building, but we need more talent. I’m fine if Jones sits a while we play well down the stretch even if dint win many, then look forward to putting things together next year.
Honestly I do t care about the Ws or Ls this year, never did. I like Judge and like what he’s building, but we need more talent. I’m fine if Jones sits a while we play well down the stretch even if dint win many, then look forward to putting things together next year.
We are in desperate need of a big WR. Slayton would be a great #2 and Shepherd a great #3
We'll take 'em however they come!
Anyway, at half time I was pretty convinced the game would go to the Giants. They were controlling the game just not capitalizing. That was bound to come.
Then Jones when out....which was big. On the heels of a potential score.
I have really no complaints other than the last 3 minutes that was aided by some bad decisions (both Giants and refs).
BTW, this win goes to Jones I believe, as he started the game.
Honestly I do t care about the Ws or Ls this year, never did. I like Judge and like what he’s building, but we need more talent. I’m fine if Jones sits a while we play well down the stretch even if dint win many, then look forward to putting things together next year.
*mic drop*
This SO spot on.
threw to a covered receiver within 5-10 yards of the LOS. Each time the receiver was blanketed and it looked like a few of those throws were headed for an INT. When Daniel Jones throws short, he's got to quicken his stroke. He's got to dart it out, not wind up! He also seriously needs a new receiver which the Giants (I hope) will draft in Round 1 or 2 next year
I hope this is both coaching for DJ and better line play.
On one particular play, he stepped up, scambled, and still managed to throw for a first down.
Arm strength also looked pretty good today on the long throws and one throw to Shep outside the numbers.
They were moving the ball but not scoring. When Jones went out they were in field goal range and at least due to turnovers were in FG range or close to it two more times. The offense could have put up close to 30 with Jones in there regardless of early missteps.
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In comment 15059982 Greg from LI said:
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My point is that I don't agree with the implication that the offense was just humming along great until Jones got hurt.
But we were humming along pretty well. We had 250+ yards when Jones got hurt and we had converted over 50% of our 3rd down conversions. When Jones left the game, the Giants had outgained the Bengals more than 2 to 1, had 3:1 ratio of first downs and held the ball twice as long. and that was still with Engram fumbling in the red zone.
I'm pretty sure the gameplan going into the week was to control the ball, give the Bengals long fields to work with and not make mistakes.
Scoring points is the objective and they weren’t doing that even with Jones despite piling up yardage.
You should have been alive when the giants won the SB against Buffalo to see The masterful gameplan.
The rare correct post. Almost mind boggling based on the author.
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are games we have lost in the past. So, although it was ugly.. we have to embrace the fact that they pulled it out.
You think that's because of some measurable increase in talent/coaching or just a favorable dice roll? I think today could easily fall into the latter category.
Defense comes up with a sack fumble with Bengals 15 yards from the winning FG, and you say it was luck!
How many times in the past 9 seasons have you seen a Giants defense do that.
I could disagree with your take more,
we are in good hands with Colt.
Nevertheless, ugly wins are better than the moral victories we've grown used to the past few years. Take the W and get the hell on the plane back to NJ.
Yep, that's exactly what this was, a masterful gameplan to avoid the high powered.....Bengals offense with Brandon Allen. Needing a sack and fumble to hold on against a horrid team is exactly how they drew it up.
Nevertheless, ugly wins are better than the moral victories we've grown used to the past few years. Take the W and get the hell on the plane back to NJ.
At the end of the day, I'm happy with the win. I just don't want this written off as McCoy came in and that's why it was a 1 point game.
There is absolutely no way Fleming should start. Peart should be at RT.
The ST was not good today. But, let's not overreact. ST, as a whole, have been very good this year. I expect them to continue to play well moving forward.
I would honestly be less annoyed if he was moving full speed and hit Allen. That is almost uncontrollable. What Williams did was 100% avoidable and that is why it gets flagged.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
My biggest kvetch is not sticking with Gallman as the feature back. I just don’t understand why Morris is getting any touches. Gallman could have had 100 rushing today if he got Morris snaps and he may well have put the game away if he ran the ball instead of that stupid sweep with McCoy. Just pound the ball with Gallman and this game probably wasn’t close at the end.
But, yeah, I’m happy the Giants are in first place. Not because I think they’re gonna make a playoff run but because they’ll keep playing meaningful football games as the season grinds on. For the first time in a long while it seems like the Giants building something and that includes winning ugly on the road, off the bye and against a lousy team.
Osi, I don't think many fans (myself included) have enough perspective to appreciate that play for it's true value
Why not give Gallman the ball 25+ carries? They should use Lewis on passing downs to spell Gallman but keep it between those two unless there’s an injury or garbage time. I just don’t see what they gain by running Morris out there. Makes no sense to me.
They did one good thing: their opening KR. Other than that they did nothing. And almost won.
What a tragedy it would've been to lose that game.
For those griping about the special teams - the Bengals quietly have outstanding specials. Their KR lead the league last year, and they can cover. That snap on the fake punt was pretty damn good - I've never seen that before. They almost did just enough to bullshit a win.
There was a game in 05 or so, I think against the Seahawks where we lost 24-21 and gave up 3 points on defense on the final drive of the game. But this was close.
I bet I wasn’t alone either....I bet 90% of us here just knew they would score a TD or FG to cut it to either 1 or 6 and then we would go 3 and out and give them the ball back to win?
This is such a negative take. Instead of being happy that we won a game they would have lost earlier in the year you're criticizing them because we thought they would lose.
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I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
This team has been mediocre and sometimes even bad on offense all season. Why are you shocked? No one's confusing them with Kansas City. Despite all that Jones had the most yards passing in a first half in his career. Sure that's not more important than points but they played much better than the score.
Just because I, and others are not doing black flips over this win, does not mean we are miserable. We all appreciate the win. The vast majority of the takes are that it was good to win this game, it was a game that this team would have lost in the recent past and that is improvement.
However, it was an ugly win over a crappy team that was missing their starting QB and RB. This team is still 4-7 and will struggle to get to 6 wins. It's still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination. It's a win that should help them learn how to win, and that is a good thing. Just because, I and some others have a little perspective on what this win means does not mean we are miserable. Acknowledging small improvement gives us glimmers of hope for the future. But the future isn't here yet for this team
The biggest improvement in the team, by a long mile, has been the coaching staff. To some extent that is better that improving the players. The coaching staff is more stable. Players come and go. And I believe this staff still has plenty of room to grow. Combine that with some improved players and we may see some winning football soon.
Just because I, and others are not doing black flips over this win, does not mean we are miserable. We all appreciate the win. The vast majority of the takes are that it was good to win this game, it was a game that this team would have lost in the recent past and that is improvement.
However, it was an ugly win over a crappy team that was missing their starting QB and RB. This team is still 4-7 and will struggle to get to 6 wins. It's still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination. It's a win that should help them learn how to win, and that is a good thing. Just because, I and some others have a little perspective on what this win means does not mean we are miserable. Acknowledging small improvement gives us glimmers of hope for the future. But the future isn't here yet for this team
The biggest improvement in the team, by a long mile, has been the coaching staff. To some extent that is better that improving the players. The coaching staff is more stable. Players come and go. And I believe this staff still has plenty of room to grow. Combine that with some improved players and we may see some winning football soon.
I like the way you debate McL, laying out your points in a logical, easy to follow flow. Your points come off as well reasoned, too, until examined carefully when they largely fall apart, because the are loaded with unproven assumptions, and of course, like pretty much everyone the optimists here call "miserable", they ignore many facts which oppose them.
What some of us see the "miserable" doing are the following:
1) Boil everything down to W-L... Unless of course the W is ugly, then the W-L is less important than "style" points, and these style points are wholly abitrary because they don't include so much other positive data like the following
2) In a game like yesterday's the miserable focus ONLY on the score amd claim the Giants didn't dominate as they should, when stats aside from the score show the Giants did indeed dominate via other measures:
First downs earned
Passing yards and rushing yards each
Time of possession
Plays ran on offense
3) Create straw men as facts:
"Giants will struggle to get to 6 wins"
"Still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination"
What I would like for the miserable to do is STFU until we see the results over the next 4 games, all vs opponents with WINNING RECORDS.
A 1-7 team has won 3 games in a row, all vs struggling opponents, to achieve a 4-7 record. The remaining 5 games are against 4 winners and one loser with some crazy offensive skills players. If the Giants go 3-2 over those remaining 5 games, they will almost certainly win their division.
Let's wait until that unfolds (or doesn't) before classifying this team too harshly, and missing out on their rapidly improving aspects.
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I'm getting tired of being called miserable.
Just because I, and others are not doing black flips over this win, does not mean we are miserable. We all appreciate the win. The vast majority of the takes are that it was good to win this game, it was a game that this team would have lost in the recent past and that is improvement.
However, it was an ugly win over a crappy team that was missing their starting QB and RB. This team is still 4-7 and will struggle to get to 6 wins. It's still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination. It's a win that should help them learn how to win, and that is a good thing. Just because, I and some others have a little perspective on what this win means does not mean we are miserable. Acknowledging small improvement gives us glimmers of hope for the future. But the future isn't here yet for this team
The biggest improvement in the team, by a long mile, has been the coaching staff. To some extent that is better that improving the players. The coaching staff is more stable. Players come and go. And I believe this staff still has plenty of room to grow. Combine that with some improved players and we may see some winning football soon.
I like the way you debate McL, laying out your points in a logical, easy to follow flow. Your points come off as well reasoned, too, until examined carefully when they largely fall apart, because the are loaded with unproven assumptions, and of course, like pretty much everyone the optimists here call "miserable", they ignore many facts which oppose them.
What some of us see the "miserable" doing are the following:
1) Boil everything down to W-L... Unless of course the W is ugly, then the W-L is less important than "style" points, and these style points are wholly abitrary because they don't include so much other positive data like the following
2) In a game like yesterday's the miserable focus ONLY on the score amd claim the Giants didn't dominate as they should, when stats aside from the score show the Giants did indeed dominate via other measures:
First downs earned
Passing yards and rushing yards each
Time of possession
Plays ran on offense
3) Create straw men as facts:
"Giants will struggle to get to 6 wins"
"Still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination"
What I would like for the miserable to do is STFU until we see the results over the next 4 games, all vs opponents with WINNING RECORDS.
A 1-7 team has won 3 games in a row, all vs struggling opponents, to achieve a 4-7 record. The remaining 5 games are against 4 winners and one loser with some crazy offensive skills players. If the Giants go 3-2 over those remaining 5 games, they will almost certainly win their division.
Let's wait until that unfolds (or doesn't) before classifying this team too harshly, and missing out on their rapidly improving aspects.
What I would like is for jerks to stop labeling people, and stop telling people to STFU!!!
Strawmen?
3) Create straw men as facts:
"Giants will struggle to get to 6 wins"
"Still not a good team by any stretch of the imagination"
The Bengals are a crappy team. Look at my posts. I said that it's good to beat crappy teams. That is improvement.
The Giants made a ton of mistakes in this game, mistakes they can't afford to make against non-crappy teams. THe Giants are still learning how to win. Beating crappy teams is a good start. But, seriously dude, do you really think the Giants are a "good" team... Good teams usually have double digit wins. Sometimes they come together late, and only post 9, but mostly double digit. Look around the league. Are the Giants in the same category as the Seahawks, Rams, Sainsts, Bucs, Packers, Bills, Dolphins, Colts, Steelers, Browns, Chiefs? Those are good teams. I don't think it's a "strawman" to say the Giants are not in that category "by any stretch of the imagination".
The remaining games are against the Seahawks, Cardinals, Browns, Ravens and Cowboys. Find me 2 wins in there. Personally I think the odds are against 2 more wins. Especially if DJ is out for any length of time.
I think you should start examining your own arguments.
Oh and talk about strawmen...
Improving, yes... Improving rapidly... Meh, not so much. They have beaten 3 really crappy teams (WFT twice). That's good, but let's not go awarding them any Lombardys yet. Let's see them get to 500 at least before making grand statements about them.
And again... WE ARE NOT MISERABLE...
Tell you what, lets call you and your lot The Angry Fantasizers. How's that... Man I would like for all you Angry Fantasizers to just take a dose of reality pills, and STFU... Does that feel good for you... Felt good for me!
Among those teams the Giants have played the Rams, Bucs, and Steelers - all of them very competitively and BEFORE their largely inexperienced OL began to come together? Before Logan Ryan "learned" his teammates and stitched them together. Before Jabril Peppers emerged and morphed into a defensive force? Before Coach Graham learned his DBs were much better suited to zone than man to man schemes...
And your point was the Giants aren't even in the same class as them?
SMH.
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I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
Matt - The complaints seem to be about the points, and ignoring the stats. When Jones left the game, the Giants had 2:1 advantages in TOP and yards. They had a 3:1 advantage in first downs. They were dominating the game statistically. Even at the end, they were significantly better. The Bengals got a TD on a kick return and a gift TD at the end on a terrible call. But many, including yourself are acting as if the game were in peril had Jones still stayed in.
We just missed slayton on a long bomb. McCoy missed a wide-open Lewis for a TD. Those types of plays factor into the points scored issue. I'm not sure why people are getting hung up on the points here. We lost Jones and still won a game that in the recent past, we would have lost. And though we didn't dominate on the scoreboard, we did statistically. On both sides of teh ball.
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In comment 15060056 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
Matt - The complaints seem to be about the points, and ignoring the stats. When Jones left the game, the Giants had 2:1 advantages in TOP and yards. They had a 3:1 advantage in first downs. They were dominating the game statistically. Even at the end, they were significantly better. The Bengals got a TD on a kick return and a gift TD at the end on a terrible call. But many, including yourself are acting as if the game were in peril had Jones still stayed in.
We just missed slayton on a long bomb. McCoy missed a wide-open Lewis for a TD. Those types of plays factor into the points scored issue. I'm not sure why people are getting hung up on the points here. We lost Jones and still won a game that in the recent past, we would have lost. And though we didn't dominate on the scoreboard, we did statistically. On both sides of teh ball.
Thank you! And THEY WON THE DAMN GAME!. They closed it out. They did exactly what Eric has been pointing out (correctly) that they needed to learn how to do in order to have their improvement show up in the W-Ls.
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In comment 15060056 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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I love the way there just has to be a list of things wrong, even in a win.
Now, despite dominating the Bengals in almost every statistic, because we didn't score more points, the offense struggled? Um oh yeah, our starting QB was hurt too.
FatMan - you don't think it is a legitimate complaint that we scored 10 points with Jones for over a half against a shitty team? That doesn't mean Jones sucked. That doesn't mean Garrett sucked. It means the offense struggled to score points against a team that, by most accounts, we should have beaten going away. How many teams are there about whom we can say that?
Sure, if St had played better or there hadn't been a BS PI call in the end zone, the game isn't close. But, those things did happen and the offense kept it close.
Matt - The complaints seem to be about the points, and ignoring the stats. When Jones left the game, the Giants had 2:1 advantages in TOP and yards. They had a 3:1 advantage in first downs. They were dominating the game statistically. Even at the end, they were significantly better. The Bengals got a TD on a kick return and a gift TD at the end on a terrible call. But many, including yourself are acting as if the game were in peril had Jones still stayed in.
We just missed slayton on a long bomb. McCoy missed a wide-open Lewis for a TD. Those types of plays factor into the points scored issue. I'm not sure why people are getting hung up on the points here. We lost Jones and still won a game that in the recent past, we would have lost. And though we didn't dominate on the scoreboard, we did statistically. On both sides of teh ball.
Last I checked it's the team with the most points that wins, not the team with the prettiest stats...
That said, the complaints are about the mistakes that kept Cinci in this game when they had no right to be there. Dropped passes, missed throws to open receivers, missed tackles (especially on specials), penalties, the fumble, etc. It's not the stats, its not the final score (they won so the margin doesn't matter) it was the self inflicted wounds. Yes, these things happen to good teams too, although not too often against crappy teams like Cinci...
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Are the Giants in the same category as the Seahawks, Rams, Sainsts, Bucs, Packers, Bills, Dolphins, Colts, Steelers, Browns, Chiefs?
Among those teams the Giants have played the Rams, Bucs, and Steelers - all of them very competitively and BEFORE their largely inexperienced OL began to come together? Before Logan Ryan "learned" his teammates and stitched them together. Before Jabril Peppers emerged and morphed into a defensive force? Before Coach Graham learned his DBs were much better suited to zone than man to man schemes...
And your point was the Giants aren't even in the same class as them?
SMH.
The wins give reason for a modicum of optimism. So it's not like we are not happy about them or that they are being discounted. It's just that there is a measured approach to what they signify.
You are projecting some ugly wins over some really crappy teams into wins over some really good teams...
Good luck with that.
Enjoy your fantasy world while it lasts.
Some of us live in the real world.
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With his special teams tackle at the end of the game. Yet nobody seems to be mentioning him because of how bad our STs were in general. I see Judge mentioned it post game, that was the effort play of the game and possibly season. That play deserves more love and Cam Brown deserves more credit for making it. An awesome play.
Osi, I don't think many fans (myself included) have enough perspective to appreciate that play for it's true value
In all my years being on this website (15+... damn), I think this tackle by Brown is maybe the most underappreciated play I've seen. He may have saved the season with a great effort shoestring tackle. The Bengals would've easily been in FG range if he didn't make that tackle, and might have even taken it all the way.
Maybe because it came at the end of a terrible STs coverage play in a game where STs coverage was awful for the team, but this was just an enormous play. Losing to the garbage Bengals on a game-winning punt return TD would have been absolutely crushing. This entire site would've been an absolute shitshow today if Brown doesn't make that tackle. Thank you Cam Brown, Biggest Play of the Season.
My wife gave me the, "I thought you were over letting football games negatively affect you" look.