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Biteymax’s Next Day Non-Emotional Thoughts

Biteymax22 : 11/30/2020 8:10 am
As always, feel free to share your own thoughts, argue with mine or whatever:

* The old adage is you’re never as good as you look when you win and never as bad as you look when you lose. After losing a few games where we looked good, we finally won one where we looked bad. At least the offense and special teams.

* Starting with special teams because its the elephant in the room

* We’ve been good all year. Kicking, on coverage and so-so (okay maybe not good) on returns. The Bengals owing us (yes they owned us) in this facet of the game is unacceptable. I have a funny feeling you’re going to be hearing a lot of words like “effort” and “hustle” in regards to this as the week goes on

* Guy breaks a return for a TD it happens. Team continuously gouges you on returns, thats a different story, thats us getting beat. Even the pooch kicks to the up men were gaining yards.

* I hate to say it because I cringe when he walks on the field to play safety, but you saw a difference in the coverage with Ebner out....

* On offense 19 points to this Bengals defense just isn’t enough. Cincinnati gives up 26pts a game. We should have at least been at that average.

* People will look at the score and say “Well Jones got hurt” but I’d point out that even though we were driving when he left the game, we weren’t exactly lighting up the scoreboard at that point in time. Despite scoring on the opening drive we went into halftime with only 10pts. The offense came out flat and never picked it up.

* For the Jones haters out there you need to look at how different our offense was with Colt McCoy who is a seasoned vet and good back up. If Jones misses an extended amount of time its going to be really hard to move the ball.

* Engram was Engram again in this game. A couple of good catches and the huge play early in the 1st half had us thinking maybe he turned the corner. Then he fumbles in field goal range... Cin responds by putting up 3 of their own netting a 6 point swing. 22-14 is a much different game than 19-17....

* I get what Garrett sees in Engram, but I’ve never seen a TE so constantly make mistakes that lead to tangible point swings in games. We won this time, but he’s been on the end of mistakes that lost us games. I’m tired of talking about this in these threads....

* The Oline, who got most of the attention this week, played well allowing no sacks. The running game was functional and no more than that but there wasn’t a “step back” as some were wondering could happen with switching coaches.

* Peart, if 100% when returning from Covid, needs to start when he comes back. Fleming was the one glaring bad spot of the line yesterday.

* Garrett kept his streak alive of calling reverses in opponents territory. Also had some weird play calls. A QB sweep when trying to ice the game??? I didn’t like the Tate QB pass or the jumbled screen they tried to run on Colt McCoy’s first play.

* Gallman continues to be serviceable. I really would have liked to see what Barkley would do behind the line we have now...

* Nothing spectacular to talk about from any of the receivers. Slayton dropped a deep ball he should have caught, this is now a trend. Shep is Shep and Tate is Tate. At one point Board caught a pass and the announcer seemed genuinely shocked.

* I don’t know why CJ Board is on the team.

* Defense was the bright spot of the game. That may be an understatement.

* Despite being put in bad positions by our special teams units they gave up a whopping 10 points with 7 of them in prevent trying to hold the lead at the end of the game.

* When in the 4 minute situations they forced 2 TOs to essentially end the game.

* We can’t forget that we were also playing an offense that wasn’t very good with a back up QB...

* There is talent on the Cin WR core though and our corners did a very good job of keeping them quiet all day.

* Yiadom, though still not someone that should be starting, continues to improve weekly.

* Peppers seems to have found his role on this team. I think having someone like Logan Ryan to do the real “saftey” work has allowed him to spend more time roaming like a playmaker. He’s continued to make splash plays each week.

* Leonard Williams with another sack this week. He’s really responded to coach Chaos’s coaching this year. I have a hard time seeing him not get 1.5 more to break his career best. His price for next year goes up every game.

* Loved seeing Lalos grab that interception. One of the Covid side effects this year was not seeing as much from UDFA’s as you would in the past. The fact that they had the kid in at all in such a crucial part of the game says a lot. Good for Niko

* Another guy we don’t hear about is Carter Coughlin. Just an observation. Noting his snap count has been continuously in the single digits, he’s around the QB a lot when he plays. He was right there with Sheard on the fumble at the end of the game.

* If you want to really see what a good job Graham is doing note that I mentioned Niko Lalos, Jabaal Sheard and Carter Coughlin as guys in the lineup during crucial situations....

* Closing out. Jones injury and recovery is going to be important if we want to make the playoffs. In essence we have to win the Dallas game and steal at least one other win. I don’t see Colt McCoy leading us to a W against Arizona or Cleveland. It can happen, but it isn’t likely. Hopefully this isn’t long term.

* And guys, I know this is supposed to be a “non-emotional” thread, but as of right now we can legitimately say we’re in first place. Its been a while, lets relish in it for the time being.
Regarding the offense  
Mike in NY : 11/30/2020 8:17 am : link
I think the Giants had a gameplan of minimizing risk so as not to give Allen a short field. Considering all of the 3 and outs Cincy had I can understand not giving them the ball in field goal range.
Garrett needs to stop calling plays at crunch time that  
markky : 11/30/2020 8:19 am : link
his kids and their friends drew up during play dates
Good thread as always Bitey  
Mike from Ohio : 11/30/2020 8:42 am : link
This came up in some other threads yesterday, but you get what you get with Engram. He will make really nice plays like he did yesertday, and he will leave some on the field each week. He isn’t going to turn a corner. This is who he is. And because we are so talent depleted, you will keep seeing plays designed to go to him.

The use of the reverses and gadget plays are an outgrowth of the above. The Giants receivers are lining up one on one against many teams and simply winning their battles. They need misdirection to exploit mistakes in the defense.

It was a really good win, but I think some fans need to be honest about what this offense is and is not. Until they develop some talent at the skill positions, they will always be in the business of relying on Engram and manufacturing points.
Good read, as always, well done  
mfsd : 11/30/2020 8:43 am : link
My only nitpick, and it’s a little one - I thought the screen to Gallman on McCoy’s first play was a good call, and it was set up to work if the pressure didn’t rush McCoy’s timing

But if you think about it from the chess match perspective, Jones goes out, Cincy has to assume we’re gearing up to run. Calling a screen to try and catch them too far upfield is a good call. Just bad execution

I’d agree the reverse down near red zone is baffling, and Garrett calls one a game

I don’t have an issue with the attempted double pass with Tate. Smart play by him to tuck it if the pass wasn’t there, but I’m fine with taking a couple trick play shots

I also thought Shep had a really strong game, made several tough catches. He and Tate are what they are - very good possession receivers. We know their limitations, neither is blowing by anyone with their speed, but they both do their jobs well.
Everyone calling for Peart  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/30/2020 8:46 am : link
I mean they are in the playoff hunt right now. I think Peart will have normal rookie struggles playing full time, I don't want that as they try to win the division. Would be different if they were eliminated.

I get the frustration with Engram, but do they win this game without him?
Regarding the offense we had over 380 yds, over 140 rushing  
PatersonPlank : 11/30/2020 8:47 am : link
yards, and had the ball for 2/3 of the game. If not for a gamely stupid Engram turnover (and not it was not a great defensive play, that attempt happens on every play by every defender) and a blatant Slayton drop (its almost like he doesn't pick up the ball in the lights each game), we'd have around 30 pts. Even with not having Jones for a quarter.

On Garrett I like what he is doing, and I hope he keeps trying creative plays. Sometimes they work sometimes they don't, but it keeps the D on their toes. If we just play a boring game people would bitch about that too. By the way, I saw Dallas run that same end-around with CeeDee on Thursday for a 1st down in exactly the same spot. If executed it should work and is probably a schematically good play to run there, especially against an aggressive D.
RE: Regarding the offense  
Greg from LI : 11/30/2020 8:57 am : link
In comment 15060811 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
I think the Giants had a gameplan of minimizing risk so as not to give Allen a short field. Considering all of the 3 and outs Cincy had I can understand not giving them the ball in field goal range.


So they were scared of Brandon Allen? Really?
I'll take Peart's rookie struggles over Fleming's shitty player  
Greg from LI : 11/30/2020 9:00 am : link
struggles every time.
RE: RE: Regarding the offense  
PatersonPlank : 11/30/2020 9:08 am : link
In comment 15060862 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 15060811 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


I think the Giants had a gameplan of minimizing risk so as not to give Allen a short field. Considering all of the 3 and outs Cincy had I can understand not giving them the ball in field goal range.



So they were scared of Brandon Allen? Really?


I think the point being made is that they knew they had a chance of winning by just being conservative and not making mistakes. The only way to lose would be to have a bunch of turnovers and give Cincy short fields.
RE: Garrett needs to stop calling plays at crunch time that  
GoDeep13 : 11/30/2020 9:08 am : link
In comment 15060813 markky said:
Quote:
his kids and their friends drew up during play dates
I grow and Ulcer everytime the play call is all “curls at the sticks”. It’s a pick 6 waiting to happen. Teams are getting closer and closer to picking that off every week.
RE: I'll take Peart's rookie struggles over Fleming's shitty player  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 15060866 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
struggles every time.


me too
RE: RE: Garrett needs to stop calling plays at crunch time that  
PatersonPlank : 11/30/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 15060881 GoDeep13 said:
Quote:
In comment 15060813 markky said:


Quote:


his kids and their friends drew up during play dates

I grow and Ulcer everytime the play call is all “curls at the sticks”. It’s a pick 6 waiting to happen. Teams are getting closer and closer to picking that off every week.


The thing with this play is it forces at least 1 (maybe 2) players to be in man-to-man coverage. Once the QB sees who they are, it should be a high percentage pass. Just throw it to the side the DB isn't. Either our guy catches it or its incomplete. So I get that it looks tight because there isn't separation (and it is tight), but if don't right its also low risk
RE: I'll take Peart's rookie struggles over Fleming's shitty player  
Optimus-NY : 11/30/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 15060866 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
struggles every time.


Word
I still can't understand  
RollBlue : 11/30/2020 9:27 am : link
all the hand wringing over the Engram fumble. 9 out of 10 times that's a fumble no matter who the player is. It was not a careless play. Sometimes you need to give the other team credit. Engram made a couple of fantastic catches, leading directly to 10 points.

Everybody loves Slayton, how many catches did he have yesterday.......
Winning Ugly is the sign of a good team  
Scyber : 11/30/2020 9:34 am : link
A number of things when wrong for the Giants yesterday, but they still pulled out a win. That is the type of game I would have expected them to lose over the last few years.

They aren't perfect, but they are getting better.
RE: RE: RE: Regarding the offense  
Mike in NY : 11/30/2020 9:35 am : link
In comment 15060880 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 15060862 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 15060811 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


I think the Giants had a gameplan of minimizing risk so as not to give Allen a short field. Considering all of the 3 and outs Cincy had I can understand not giving them the ball in field goal range.



So they were scared of Brandon Allen? Really?



I think the point being made is that they knew they had a chance of winning by just being conservative and not making mistakes. The only way to lose would be to have a bunch of turnovers and give Cincy short fields.


Yes, this was the point I was trying to make. They knew that Brandon Allen would be unable to beat the Giants if they needed to go 50-60 yards for a FG or 70-80 yards for a TD on a consistent basis. First downs happen even with the best defenses so they did not want to risk being in a position where Cincy needed one or two first downs at most to be in scoring range. Even with that and losing our starting QB to injury we likely score in excess of Cincy's average points allowed if any combination of at least two of the following occur: (1) Engram doesn't fumble, (2) Slayton doesn't drop the ball, or (3) McCoy doesn't miss the dump off to Dion Lewis. We also likely had a big gain on a screen pass to Gallman if the DE doesn't make a great play to bat it down.
RE: Lalos  
mittenedman : 11/30/2020 9:36 am : link
Gotta have guys like him. Check out Logan’s FF too: it’s Lalos grabbing the guys finger so he cant get 2 hands on the ball, which allows Ryan to punch it out. That is the very definition of balls out effort, clawing for victory.
It'll be a cold day in hell  
WillieYoung : 11/30/2020 9:38 am : link
When I celebrate being in a four way tie for 10th place in the NFC. We're ahead of exactly two teams and they're both in the NFC east.
RE: RE: Lalos  
Spider56 : 11/30/2020 9:43 am : link
In comment 15060932 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Gotta have guys like him. Check out Logan’s FF too: it’s Lalos grabbing the guys finger so he cant get 2 hands on the ball, which allows Ryan to punch it out. That is the very definition of balls out effort, clawing for victory.


Does Niko go back to the PS now?
Or do they find a spot for him on the 53?
We were VER|Y close to scoring 2 more touchdowns yesterday  
Snacks : 11/30/2020 9:47 am : link
on the deep ball to Slayton that he wasn't able to bring in and the McCoy throw to Lewis towards the end of the game that was JUST out of his reach. That was a walk-in if McCoy hits that throw.

Either of those plays happen and this game would not have been so close.
Aside from the "curls at the sticks"  
Dnew15 : 11/30/2020 9:48 am : link
routes being run too often - I think Garrett has been very good as the OC.

Look at what he's got to work with and tell me what he should be doing differently.

Part of the reason that defense looks so good is b/c the offense does everything it can to stay on the field.
People are a fickle lot  
jvm52106 : 11/30/2020 9:50 am : link
and that is what I am getting from most on BBI yesterday and this morning. You wnated the GMEN to blow out Cincy and becuase they didn't then they are playing as well as they can and we lack talent blah blah blah ..

1) This team in the past has come back from bye weeks with way more talent and stunk up the joint.
2) We were some missed plays away from blowing out the Bengals. Slayton's drop, EE's fumble, McCoy missing a wide open Lewis for a TD... Those plays change the score, the win margin and more than likely keep the Bengals to 7 pts..
3) The offense hurt itself with penalties that cost us 1st downs and continued drives. Flemming was a big piece of that.
4)We went VERY conservative after McCoy missed that pass to Lewis.
5) Jones was doing a lot yesterday all with his arm (his running was minimal).

I do have a concern about Garrett's play calling. NOt the plays themselves but when they are used. Case in point, after we moved down the field and scored to start the game the Bengals return the ensuing KO for a TD. Then the Bengals Def was right back on the field. To me this was an opportunity for us to wear their defense down. Instead we change things up (Morris in instead of Gallman) and the second play is the backwards pass to Tate looking for a WR pass down the field that does nothing. It isn't the choice of that play but the moment, the portion of the game where we had a chance to wear down a defense immediately in the first quarter. Take their wind, take their strength and you take their resolve. Trick plays are great if they work but when they don't it inspires the defense, provides hope.

I just feel Garrett needs to understand moments and momentum, what was needed their was a methodical approach, a wearing down mentality.
RE: Everyone calling for Peart  
j_rud : 11/30/2020 9:51 am : link
In comment 15060845 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
I mean they are in the playoff hunt right now. I think Peart will have normal rookie struggles playing full time, I don't want that as they try to win the division. Would be different if they were eliminated.


Its not like Fleming is bringing some kind of veteran stability to the table. Yesterdays flags looked a lot like rookie growing pains. Especially the hold. Just dumb and unnecessary, not a veteran play at all, and erased a huge 1st down.
Yesterdays game was the kind of game we've typically lost  
Dinger : 11/30/2020 9:52 am : link
the last 4 or 5 seasons. Yes they were bad and missing their starting QB and we only scored one TD and eeked out a 2 point victory, BUT the Giants WON an ugly game, the defense made a stop when they had to and they overcame a really poor special teams performance (not including Gano's FG's once again!).
* I thought Cincy looked really chippy and trash talked a LOT!.
* It was a career microcosm for Engram.
* How do you pull a hamstring in week 11 coming off a bye?!
* Shocked Bobby Hart is still starting....anyplace. Goes to show the makeup of the Bengals.
* Odd not seeing Hernandez as starter.
* Coughlin is FAST and Downs is a Personal foul waiting to happen and Fackrell isn't as good as I originally thought/was hoping.
* Yiadom is about what you'd expect a 7th round pick to be which is better that what a few of our 3rd round CB's recently have been, but we need an upgrade there. Next 4 QBs will expose him.
* Does Tanney make a comeback (he ducks).
FWIW  
fanoftheteam : 11/30/2020 11:04 am : link
Fleming was highest graded lineman yesterday.
RE: FWIW  
giants#1 : 11/30/2020 11:06 am : link
In comment 15061143 fanoftheteam said:
Quote:
Fleming was highest graded lineman yesterday.


By who?
RE: RE: Garrett needs to stop calling plays at crunch time that  
mfsd : 11/30/2020 11:11 am : link
In comment 15060881 GoDeep13 said:
Quote:
In comment 15060813 markky said:


Quote:


his kids and their friends drew up during play dates

I grow and Ulcer everytime the play call is all “curls at the sticks”. It’s a pick 6 waiting to happen. Teams are getting closer and closer to picking that off every week.


The trouble we have is aside from Slayton (when healthy), we don't have any WRs who scare DBs with their deep speed. So teams can have their corners creep up to try and jump those routes a lot more.

The early deep ball to Engram was the perfect example of what to do to counter DBs creeping up. The trouble is, he was our only guy who was a threat yesterday capable of beating his defender over the top
Happy that we won.  
George from PA : 11/30/2020 11:12 am : link
This was a very typical game that we usually lose .....of late.

They did leave some points on the field....especially deep in Cincy territory...the fumble, Jones leaving etc
RE: RE: RE: Garrett needs to stop calling plays at crunch time that  
Dnew15 : 11/30/2020 11:34 am : link
In comment 15061161 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15060881 GoDeep13 said:


Quote:


In comment 15060813 markky said:


Quote:


his kids and their friends drew up during play dates

I grow and Ulcer everytime the play call is all “curls at the sticks”. It’s a pick 6 waiting to happen. Teams are getting closer and closer to picking that off every week.



The trouble we have is aside from Slayton (when healthy), we don't have any WRs who scare DBs with their deep speed. So teams can have their corners creep up to try and jump those routes a lot more.

The early deep ball to Engram was the perfect example of what to do to counter DBs creeping up. The trouble is, he was our only guy who was a threat yesterday capable of beating his defender over the top


Slayton beat his guy over the top - he just didn't catch it.
How many times has Fleming hurt this offense?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/30/2020 11:37 am : link
Not even just this past game. I mean in total.
A friend of mine texted me yesterday during the game asking  
GiantBlue : 11/30/2020 11:47 am : link
if we can sign both Tomlinson & Williams next year. Good Question.

Does Sheard affect the answer of the question?

Do you guys think he has the long-term chops to take over as a DT starter or do we learn from our recent mistakes in letting good DT's go on the market? (Linival for one).

Thoughts?
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