Did Jones Turn a Corner?

I figured at worst, he would be like Eli - always a few too many turnovers, but enough positive plays to justify him keeping his job.

Now, as the pass protection has gotten better, that automatically leads to fewer fumbles and INTs.

playing some excellent football lately. Crisp, accurate throws, good decision making. Just really good qb play.

I'm sold that he's our guy big-picture. This injury comes at a shitty time but thankfully doesn't appear to be that bad.

...but there are still corners up ahead before the jury is in. Turnovers were a symptom, the root cause is less than ideal pocket awareness and sometimes being a tick slow in the mental processing department when it comes to getting the ball out of his hands.

Injuries are another symptom of the things I mentioned above and we see him likely missing games this year just as he did last year.

I don't think he'll be a Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, but he can be a Phil Simms or Eli Manning.

As has been said, the improved O-Line has been a major factor in Jones recent upturn. In my opinion we have gone from having one of the worst O-Lines in the league, to an average/okay one in the space 10 weeks or so. And maybe that isn't credit enough for the young line; the protection has been very good in the last few games.

Very obvious statements, but with more time to make a decision, DJ is less likely to try and force a last second play causing a pick. And the opposition is getting to him less and less, which is obviously reducing the amount of fumbles. Just in general, playing behind a reliable line will give a young QB confidence, he is allowed to think about how to make the play rather than having that constant expectation of being slammed by a defender, as he knows the % chance of being allowed the time and space to make a play is in his favour.

But it's not just the O-Line. I think Sunday was his 22nd (?) start as Giants QB. He's effectively just leaving his rookie phase and is starting to accumulate the NFL experience needed to develop. He has made plenty of mistakes within those first 20 games, but he was meant to do that, we are now seeing him learn from that, and we are gradually seeing what a good football player he can be.

Lets hope the line continues to grow, DJ continues to grow, and the Giants continue to grow as a result. A competitive stretch ahead, and an improved receiving corps in 2021 will hopefully facilitate that continued development.

He has 10 quarters, nearly 200 snaps, without a turnover. More than that has been largely improved decision making. Don’t love the short curl routes that Garrett shoehorns in. He is a lot better when going vertical, either leading a receiver with touch or really placing the ball well on back-shoulder throws.

During the Bengals game, I think the offense was generally limited by the receivers, not the QB. That game would have been a blowout with better WR and TE play early (Slayton lost on another deep ball, Engram’s fumble). He is looking confident and appears to be seeing the whole field.

Generally a lot better, I think, and I sure hope this injury isn’t too bad.

It’s a setback. See what chance we have against Seattle without Jones.

In comment 15062826 BlackLight said:

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I figured at worst, he would be like Eli - always a few too many turnovers, but enough positive plays to justify him keeping his job. Now, as the pass protection has gotten better, that automatically leads to fewer fumbles and INTs.

Can't tell if serious...at worst he would be like Eli?

In comment 15062832 Milton said:

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I don't think he'll be a Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, but he can be a Phil Simms or Eli Manning.

So he wont be a hall of famer but he will be a superbowl MVP... awesome

For lack of a better word, he looks like he's grown up. He's playing NFL football now.

He had at least 2 balls that were pretty “interceptable” in Cincy and was inaccurate a few other times, like throwing behind Deion Lewis across the middle with a defender in the chase position and a lot of space in front. Despite his play of late, he’s not a QB defensive coordinators need to fear will beat them. I don’t think he’s the guy. At some point in the hopefully near future, when this team is fully loaded, it will be Jones (in my opinion) who holds them back.

He was finally stepping up in the pocket rather than drifting right. Maybe it's becyhe finally has a pocket to step up into.

In comment 15062860 armstead98 said:

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He was finally stepping up in the pocket rather than drifting right. Maybe it's becyhe finally has a pocket to step up into.

Yes. Gates has made a huge difference. The pocket is no longer collapsing in the middle

And with that time, he is showing what he can do now. His real improvement has yet to come and that is a good thing.

the TOs will reduce..Still take a look around the league at the QB fumbles (lost or recovered) and INTs..It’s not just Jones. He’s going to be solid and will clean things up in time. Imo..

Tampa game slapped him in the face really hard. He absolutely lost them that game and he knew it.

And without doubt, the offensive line becoming decent gives him that extra 1/2 second. It is all related and intertwined. Better protection leads to more time, less chances to fumble, see the field develop for a split second longer, etc...

In comment 15062831 Milton said:

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Injuries are another symptom of the things I mentioned above and we see him likely missing games this year just as he did last year.

He did not "miss" games last year. He was not the starter in weeks 1-2, and his "ankle injury" was clearly a ploy to give Eli his last hurrah. Come on.

In comment 15062826 BlackLight said:

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I figured at worst, he would be like Eli - always a few too many turnovers, but enough positive plays to justify him keeping his job. Now, as the pass protection has gotten better, that automatically leads to fewer fumbles and INTs.

It's funny how not getting drilled in the back while in the pocket leads to less fumbles.

He is the second coming of Eli and then some . Good years ahead for Giants.

That was a good start, but for all the fulsome praise he's received the past few weeks, he still has all of 8 TDs in 11 games. That ain't gonna get it done.

but not sold on him as a franchise QB yet.

In comment 15062888 Gman11 said:

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In comment 15062826 BlackLight said: Quote: I figured at worst, he would be like Eli - always a few too many turnovers, but enough positive plays to justify him keeping his job. Now, as the pass protection has gotten better, that automatically leads to fewer fumbles and INTs. It's funny how not getting drilled in the back while in the pocket leads to less fumbles.

Crazy how that works isn’t it?

In comment 15062880 Morehead79 said:

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He did not "miss" games last year. He was not the starter in weeks 1-2, and his "ankle injury" was clearly a ploy to give Eli his last hurrah. Come on.

You're kidding, right?

Started with the wash game where he didn’t play great but no made mistakes to a great game in philly and a solid performance before the injury in the Cincy game.

It was nice to see him stack good performances in a row.

he throws a good deep ball. But I think that he's got to show a lot more before we can say that he's "turned the corner" and will be a franchise QB. If the NYG had the #1 pick in this year's draft would you say for certain that you'd stick with Jones?

I think he's playing a little too cautiously, but that is understandable considering the pressure he is under to cut down on TO's. Yesterday he seemed too quick to go to his checkdowns, when there was little pressure.

But that is fixable, and obviously preferable to turning the ball over. The game is still slowing down for him, and as it does, he'll be more comfortable in the pocket.

...but this season was very dissapointing, as you didn't see that next step. In fact.....he went backwards.

But with a new coaching staff and a COVID training camp, I think he needs some benefit of the doubt.

The more he plays, the better he'll get I believe. Team will get better too.

I particuarly liked the last game seeing him climb the pocket more. That's both an improvement in Jones and the OL. So yeah his injury is very dissapointing.

And the turnovers are not as prevalent.

In comment 15062895 Greg from LI said:

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That was a good start, but for all the fulsome praise he's received the past few weeks, he still has all of 8 TDs in 11 games. That ain't gonna get it done.

And last year when he had a good amount of TDs no one could stop talking about his fumbles. You can't have it both ways.

In comment 15062895 Greg from LI said:

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That was a good start, but for all the fulsome praise he's received the past few weeks, he still has all of 8 TDs in 11 games. That ain't gonna get it done.

He looks much better but he still doesn't actually look good. He has 1 TD in his last 2.5 games. He looked much better last year.

This was always about him playing behind an OL that could neither run or pass block. That was the main problem along with Barkley’s absence. Once the lune got going so did Jones.

In comment 15062999 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 15062895 Greg from LI said: Quote: That was a good start, but for all the fulsome praise he's received the past few weeks, he still has all of 8 TDs in 11 games. That ain't gonna get it done. He looks much better but he still doesn't actually look good. He has 1 TD in his last 2.5 games. He looked much better last year.

Ehhh....TD's can be somewhat deceiving. He threw to Engram and Mack who just missed getting TDs. He's also ran for one (and another was called back).

I am not much worried about "stats" that we can brag on, but what he's doing with the ball. He's a developing player. There's plenty of time to be at the top of the leader board in future years.

Phil Simms must have thrown a million passes where the receiver was downed inside the 5 yard line and the Giants would just bulldoze into the endzone after that.

You are sorta seeing that now in these mini-run of wins. Giants are executing as a team - in particular converting our 4th and 1's and getting the tough yards.

In comment 15063015 BillKo said:

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In comment 15062999 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: In comment 15062895 Greg from LI said: Quote: That was a good start, but for all the fulsome praise he's received the past few weeks, he still has all of 8 TDs in 11 games. That ain't gonna get it done. He looks much better but he still doesn't actually look good. He has 1 TD in his last 2.5 games. He looked much better last year. Ehhh....TD's can be somewhat deceiving. He threw to Engram and Mack who just missed getting TDs. He's also ran for one (and another was called back). I am not much worried about "stats" that we can brag on, but what he's doing with the ball. He's a developing player. There's plenty of time to be at the top of the leader board in future years. Phil Simms must have thrown a million passes where the receiver was downed inside the 5 yard line and the Giants would just bulldoze into the endzone after that. You are sorta seeing that now in these mini-run of wins. Giants are executing as a team - in particular converting our 4th and 1's and getting the tough yards.

4 straight runs on the goal line this past Sunday, scoring a TD on 4th down.

That's the identity they are trying to establish.

Not the losses.

How could you expect him to win with an unproven rookie OL, no running game but himself, an unpredictable TE, and no #1 WR?

the upside has always shown itself. Since the first game he started. He just needed time to put the pieces together, he needed a running game and o-line to help him out, and he needed to cut down on the rookie type mistakes "forcing a throw when he should take a sack or throw it away".

I've said all along, and the o-line wasn't just below average they were atrocious, that if they could just get to average and give him some average protection you'd see the turnovers (especially fumbles) cut in half. That's what we're seeing now.

So no, I don't think Jones has turned the corner in any meaningful way other than getting over his rookie mistakes. I'd say you're just seeing the natural growth and progression of what he's been since day one.

In comment 15063015 BillKo said:

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In comment 15062999 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: In comment 15062895 Greg from LI said: Quote: That was a good start, but for all the fulsome praise he's received the past few weeks, he still has all of 8 TDs in 11 games. That ain't gonna get it done. He looks much better but he still doesn't actually look good. He has 1 TD in his last 2.5 games. He looked much better last year. Ehhh....TD's can be somewhat deceiving. He threw to Engram and Mack who just missed getting TDs. He's also ran for one (and another was called back). I am not much worried about "stats" that we can brag on, but what he's doing with the ball. He's a developing player. There's plenty of time to be at the top of the leader board in future years. Phil Simms must have thrown a million passes where the receiver was downed inside the 5 yard line and the Giants would just bulldoze into the endzone after that. You are sorta seeing that now in these mini-run of wins. Giants are executing as a team - in particular converting our 4th and 1's and getting the tough yards.

Fair points, Bill. I think Jones looks better for sure, but I don't see the potential I saw last year (which is my larger point other than the TDs).

I'm not trying to be negative. He's flashed. But I don't think QBs take 4 years to develop anymore and think what we get from Jones next season is probably going to be what he is. I know there's some exceptions, of course.

In comment 15063056 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 15063015 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 15062999 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: In comment 15062895 Greg from LI said: Quote: That was a good start, but for all the fulsome praise he's received the past few weeks, he still has all of 8 TDs in 11 games. That ain't gonna get it done. He looks much better but he still doesn't actually look good. He has 1 TD in his last 2.5 games. He looked much better last year. Ehhh....TD's can be somewhat deceiving. He threw to Engram and Mack who just missed getting TDs. He's also ran for one (and another was called back). I am not much worried about "stats" that we can brag on, but what he's doing with the ball. He's a developing player. There's plenty of time to be at the top of the leader board in future years. Phil Simms must have thrown a million passes where the receiver was downed inside the 5 yard line and the Giants would just bulldoze into the endzone after that. You are sorta seeing that now in these mini-run of wins. Giants are executing as a team - in particular converting our 4th and 1's and getting the tough yards. Fair points, Bill. I think Jones looks better for sure, but I don't see the potential I saw last year (which is my larger point other than the TDs). I'm not trying to be negative. He's flashed. But I don't think QBs take 4 years to develop anymore and think what we get from Jones next season is probably going to be what he is. I know there's some exceptions, of course.

He's the highest ranked deep ball thrower in the league. We just play in a more conservative offense. Last game he could have easily had 2 TDs on deep balls. One where Engram was tackled inside the 5 and one that Slayton dropped. Some of it is just luck and some of it is scheme. Some of these great QBs (for example Brees historically) throw it in goal to go situations quite a bit. Now, it's not easy to do and they get the responsibility because they're good but if you play in an offense where you run in those situations you'll have fewer TDs.

In comment 15063056 BrettNYG10 said:

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I'm not trying to be negative. He's flashed. But I don't think QBs take 4 years to develop anymore and think what we get from Jones next season is probably going to be what he is. I know there's some exceptions, of course.

No doubt about it. 2021 is going to be huge for NYG and Jones.

Is developing, but Eli turned a corner in year 2 when he WON a game for us against Denver, a 2 score down 4th quarter comeback, a signiture game in route to an 11-5 season, in year 2, Jones is not on that level yet.

In comment 15063078 PaulN said:

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Is developing, but Eli turned a corner in year 2 when he WON a game for us against Denver, a 2 score down 4th quarter comeback, a signiture game in route to an 11-5 season, in year 2, Jones is not on that level yet.

In fairness, that roster was loaded already. Look he Eli was throwing to in year two: Plaxico, Amani Toomer, and Jeremy Shockey. Tiki Barber was having an MVP level campaign, and the defense featured Michael Strahan and Osi Umenyiora coming off the edge. There just is no way to compare these two year two campaigns. It's not fair to Jones.

Your sample of "good DJ" is too small to mean anything yet.

In comment 15063078 PaulN said:

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Is developing, but Eli turned a corner in year 2 when he WON a game for us against Denver, a 2 score down 4th quarter comeback, a signiture game in route to an 11-5 season, in year 2, Jones is not on that level yet.

Also, in Jones very first start he won a game, down 2 scores, in the 4th quarter.

You want to know the funny thing about that Denver win? A year later people on BBI were still saying that throw was a lucky heave that Amani Toomer bailed him out on, and that he wasn't even looking where he was throwing it.

Some things never change.

first and foremost for our playoff chances but I really want to see how long he'd keep up the ball protection. This homestretch is huge for him and for the overall outlook of 2021 and beyond so I hope it doesn't linger past week 13.

market for a QB in the coming draft. Jones' grade is incomplete right now and that is unlikely to change by week 17.

no doubt. but he is still often inaccurate, throwing to the wrong side too many times. And he has been playing bad teams during this streak. I personally don't think he'll be a championship QB in this league but until we find someone better he has a chance to prove he is.

In comment 15063104 Producer said:

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no doubt. but he is still often inaccurate, throwing to the wrong side too many times. And he has been playing bad teams during this streak. I personally don't think he'll be a championship QB in this league but until we find someone better he has a chance to prove he is.

Did Eli look like a championship QB in his second season? The thing giving me pause is that I've felt he hasn't been as good in crunch time as Eli. But Eli didn't look great until the end of his 4th season.

OL play. People can not judge a QB (or RB) on a bubble. The OL play dramatically affects things. Now he has time to throw, wait for the play, and make his progressions.

I still think he has a step (or two) more to go, but he is trending in the right direction. Right now he is a solid NFL QB, and hopefully he will continue upward to be a top 5 guy

5th in yards, tied for 4th in TDs.

In comment 15063141 BrettNYG10 said:

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5th in yards, tied for 4th in TDs.

And Jones had one of the best rookie seasons in history other than fumbles that he has had under control more or less this year. He HAS regressed this year but has also played in a much more conservative offense with not half the talent the 05 Giants had.

and some time to work with.

Go back to the early games and look at how much pressure he was under.

In comment 15063108 BestFeature said:

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In comment 15063104 Producer said: Quote: no doubt. but he is still often inaccurate, throwing to the wrong side too many times. And he has been playing bad teams during this streak. I personally don't think he'll be a championship QB in this league but until we find someone better he has a chance to prove he is. Did Eli look like a championship QB in his second season? The thing giving me pause is that I've felt he hasn't been as good in crunch time as Eli. But Eli didn't look great until the end of his 4th season.

Personally, I had a better feeling about Eli. I don't know why. Maybe it was that he was such a high pedigree QB. I think Eli was a lot more than a game manager. He won games in dramatic fashion. Even in yr 2. Jones doesn't seem to have that winning, leadership mentality. We'll see though.

Lets say he can play next week and miss SEA, does he come back to 90% with a chance of injury?

How long does a typical injury like this take to come back to 100% with no additional risk of injury on average? How much to 80-90% full health?

I think id take 80% with a small chance of reinjury if you eliminate RPO/designed runs for him to play vs SEA.

pundits all focus on. Of course it's huge in the W/L results.

But the bigger and more important change to my eyes is how he is now reading the field and making adjustments at the LOS and even his post snap recognition and reaction.

He's evolving in the QB's point guard role, and that has been crucial to the elevation of his play, and therefore the team's.

In comment 15063177 nym172 said:

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Lets say he can play next week and miss SEA, does he come back to 90% with a chance of injury? How long does a typical injury like this take to come back to 100% with no additional risk of injury on average? How much to 80-90% full health? I think id take 80% with a small chance of reinjury if you eliminate RPO/designed runs for him to play vs SEA.

He prolly won't be 100% for the remainder of 2020. He won't have the opportunity to rest and rehab it.

As soon as he can manage to throw off the leg at some level like 85-90% efficacy, even if he cannot RUN at all, he'll be back in the lineup.

It's who he is, and how important he is to team success.

Caveat I'm not a Dr, but have suffered a really bad hamstring tear once that also tore a significan vein in my leg.

so we are dealing with a limited QB the rest of the way who needs a month of rest/rehab to get back to 100%. At least the offseason will be normal for him.

In comment 15063147 BestFeature said:

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In comment 15063141 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: 5th in yards, tied for 4th in TDs. And Jones had one of the best rookie seasons in history other than fumbles that he has had under control more or less this year. He HAS regressed this year but has also played in a much more conservative offense with not half the talent the 05 Giants had.

I agree Jones was really good last year, but this thread is about him turning a corner. He's still much worse than last year.

A silver lining. Jones will have to rely even more on his recognition and anticipation while passing solely from the pocket. And the OL will have to really outperform in both the ground and pass protection arenas to keep the boat afloat.

Big challenges for sure.

In comment 15063196 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 15063147 BestFeature said: Quote: In comment 15063141 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I agree Jones was really good last year, but this thread is about him turning a corner. He's still much worse than last year.

He is MUCH BETTER in reading the field now, he's doing much more as a field general. Garrett's taken away many of PS's simplifications.

QBs are really expensive. We have already seen within our division how paying a QB 30M+ shreds the rest of your team. So he better be worth it. Fortunately we have him on a cheap contract for another 2 years to see if he is the guy. If he doesn't prove to be a top 10 QB, move on. It is not complicated IMO.

providing that the hamstring heals fully (so he can plant on his throws) AND our coaches don't try to use him like RGIII or Lamar Jackson or even the DJ of the past 4 weeks. Designed runs should be used VERY sparingly for a guy 6'5, even if he's really fast.

He needs to slide or go out of bounds, even when it means coming up short of a first down. He has the talent to lead us as far as the rest of the team will allow.

Seeing the reads a little faster. Having a cleaner pocket. Better run game to keep the d from teeing off. And players executing and getting some wins for confidence. The whole team is clicking a bit more. Now the competition hasn’t been as high but wins are important

Next step is demonstrate consistency of performance, and then defeat a winning football team.

That goes for the entire NYG football team right now. They're beating fellow clunkers, need to beat a winner.

He hasn't been so good that we need to start talking about the next 10 years. I'd still bring in legitimate competition in the off-season.

game manager.

But where are the points? That's what the 6th pick is supposed to do - produce more points.

I'm not declaring any "corner turned" until I see a high draft pick doing high draft pick things...

In comment 15063234 CT Charlie said:

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providing that the hamstring heals fully (so he can plant on his throws) AND our coaches don't try to use him like RGIII or Lamar Jackson or even the DJ of the past 4 weeks. Designed runs should be used VERY sparingly for a guy 6'5, even if he's really fast. He needs to slide or go out of bounds, even when it means coming up short of a first down. He has the talent to lead us as far as the rest of the team will allow.

Can we start with top-10 in one season? Because right now he around #25. Maybe with his improved play he is around 15 to 18. It is a big jump to top 10, much less top 10 for ten seasons. He has done nothing so far to comfortably project him as an enduring top 10 QB.

but agree need more from him than just "not turning the ball over" or "not lose the game" type of QB play.

With that said, front office really needed to get him another WR this season. And Evan Engram's struggles to stop helping the opposing defense is consistently hurting DJ too.

But overall, corner not yet turned.

8 tds on the season doesn’t cut it. That’s a good two weeks for top players, we are 2/3 of the way through the season. It’s nowhere close to good enough. I don’t think Jones is solely to blame but the offense feels very underpowered and the QB is the focal point of the offense. The Giants need better talent at receiver but I sincerely doubt Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, etc would be in single digits for passing touchdowns in this offense.

I like Jones, by all accounts he works hard. I think he throws a pretty nice ball and I like that he can run. But it’s 2020 not 1980, you need to be able to score in bunches.

In comment 15063341 bw in dc said:

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game manager. But where are the points? That's what the 6th pick is supposed to do - produce more points. I'm not declaring any "corner turned" until I see a high draft pick doing high draft pick things...

Having 7.6 yards per carry rushing, being the #1 deep ball passer in the league right now, 3rd in rushing yards by a QB this year, three passing TD's short of the rookie record last year...

Do these not classify as "high draft pick things"?

In comment 15063355 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15063341 bw in dc said: Quote: game manager. But where are the points? That's what the 6th pick is supposed to do - produce more points. I'm not declaring any "corner turned" until I see a high draft pick doing high draft pick things... Having 7.6 yards per carry rushing, being the #1 deep ball passer in the league right now, 3rd in rushing yards by a QB this year, three passing TD's short of the rookie record last year... Do these not classify as "high draft pick things"?

You think Daniel Jones is the #1 deep ball passer in the league right now? What about Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, etc etc..

.
Link - ( New Window )

.

go up..I’d like to add a stud WR with the 32nd pick if available.

Look deeper at those numbers.

Jones: 14/24, 5 TDs/0 INTs (Giants - 19.5 PPG)
Rodgers: 25/58, 8/1 (Packers - 31.7 PPG)
Mahomes: 18/46, 9/1 (Chiefs - 31.6 PPG)
Herbert: 19/45, 10/3 (Chargers - 25.2 PPG)
Wilson: 19/46, 11/3 (Seahawks - 31.0 PPG)
Prescott: 15/28, 4/1 (Cowboys - 32.6 PPG in Dak's 5 games)

See a difference in those guys? Yes, Jones has the highest rating. And yes, he does throw the deep ball well. But he is not prolific in this area and downfield passing is how you score in this league.

Prior to his injury Jones was playing better in that the turnovers were gone and he was running the ball well. But he was not creating points with his passing.

Jones is still a question mark at quarterback. Next year has to be a lot better.

In comment 15063360 Britt in VA said:

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.

That rating could say 1,424.0 and he wouldn't be the best deep ball passer in the league.

He also has a higher yard per carry than Saquon Barkley. Does that make him a better runner than him too?

He is clearly taking advantage of what the offense, and receivers give him.

and will continue to improve.

In comment 15063372 Go Terps said:

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Look deeper at those numbers. Jones: 14/24, 5 TDs/0 INTs (Giants - 19.5 PPG) Rodgers: 25/58, 8/1 (Packers - 31.7 PPG) Mahomes: 18/46, 9/1 (Chiefs - 31.6 PPG) Herbert: 19/45, 10/3 (Chargers - 25.2 PPG) Wilson: 19/46, 11/3 (Seahawks - 31.0 PPG) Prescott: 15/28, 4/1 (Cowboys - 32.6 PPG in Dak's 5 games) See a difference in those guys? Yes, Jones has the highest rating. And yes, he does throw the deep ball well. But he is not prolific in this area and downfield passing is how you score in this league. Prior to his injury Jones was playing better in that the turnovers were gone and he was running the ball well. But he was not creating points with his passing. Jones is still a question mark at quarterback. Next year has to be a lot better.

He plays in a conservative offense though that until the last 4 games had a terrible pass protection. He's not the best deep ball passer in the league but is a good one.

Not using them to support or prove the best deep passer right now, but interesting nonetheless:



Now I'm not a big metrics guy, but it seems like this should not be surprising that he's throwing a great deep ball right now. This is who they drafted.

turnover worthy plays. Part of that is he’ll fumble less often as the pass protection improves. His 18 for 18 performance with a clean pocket versus Philly gives me hope that he has the capability of improving as the line gets better. I still would like to see more explosive plays in the passing game, but that might not be possible with this roster as configurated.

In comment 15063355 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15063341 bw in dc said: Quote: game manager. But where are the points? That's what the 6th pick is supposed to do - produce more points. I'm not declaring any "corner turned" until I see a high draft pick doing high draft pick things... Having 7.6 yards per carry rushing, being the #1 deep ball passer in the league right now, 3rd in rushing yards by a QB this year, three passing TD's short of the rookie record last year... Do these not classify as "high draft pick things"?

I do like the ability to produce yards with his legs. Check.

The deep ball stuff is okay, but those are a bit distorted. He is has good touch on these lolipop throws to a spot allowing the receiver to run under the ball. Fine. But he doesn't really drive the ball downfield like a Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, etc where he can drill it into tight coverage. Those plays create more points. But Jones does throw a catchable ball - by and large - so that's noteworthy.

Again, the QB is most directly responsible for PPG. True?

This year we are 30th at 19.8PPG. Last year we scored 21.3 PPG for 19th place.

That speaks volumes to me...

You see Jones actually has a pocket to throw from now. Not a jailbreak where he's getting hit from every angle. It's amazing how much less a QB turns it over when he actually has time to throw and go through his progressions. Also the play calling has gotten much better as they are more comfortable with the personnel. All of this is why Jones pronouncements after week 5 or 6 were way premature.

improve. That goes for Jones and the whole team. You are seeing it with your own eyes right now.

We now have what looks to be a young, offensive line that can hold blocks. Now in this draft we need to get a big, physical WR that can go up and get the 50/50 balls, and gets consistent separation. If we can find a true TE while we're at it, all the better.

It's a symbiotic relationship. As the team improves, Jones will improve, and the points/passing TD's will come. It's not like he doesn't have the ability to put it on a rope and dime like he did to Golden Tate in the 4th QTR against Tampa with the game on the line. There was nothing lolipop about that throw.
Link - ( New Window )

linemen being pushed back into him. No pocket to step up into. So no, I don't buy into that lolipop stuff.

He's a very good deep ball thrower. I wouldn't even try to dispute that. Overall I think he's a really good thrower in general...the only issue would be the hitch and patting the ball - those really become a problem down near the goal line (think of the 2 point conversion failure against TB).

But by and large it's the decision making and vision that's an issue. He's had stretches where he just doesn't see what's happening on the field because he's prescribed his throw pre-snap (again think of the pick against TB that should have been a deep TD to Slayton on the opposite side of the field).

I'd agree that Jones is improving, but that has to continue in a big way next year...that's when the contract questions will start to be asked, and right now he's nowhere close to meriting long term consideration beyond his rookie deal.

.

he needs talent upgrades at WR. Engram's got to stop with the yips, Slayton can't disappear and put 0-2 catches up.

Shep is also not looking like his old self, think he's protecting his noggin from the next concussion. So, we're potentially looking for two WRs, if I'm the GM.

that was titled "what do you want in the next QB", the most consensus would be on what we appear to have here, starting with number one as the most popular from what I remember!

1. Needs to be able to make plays with his legs when the pocket collapses

2. Big/tall pocket passer that can re-establish the launch point with his legs, looking for the pass first, but able to run for the first down if neccessary.

3. Throws a good deep ball

4. Can go through his progressions and find the open man by reading a defense.

I really think we have that guy. The guy we all wanted in our head was the prototype and it appears Daniel Jones at least has all of those traits, although they are developing. Protect him. Give him weapons. Then you'll see what he can really do.

on the list. And hopefully he's improving on that too.

With seeing the field. Jones left some wide open again without even looking. Watching Rodgers, he sees the whole field. He doesn't bird dog a side of the field. He uses his peripheral vision to see the whole field. When Jones drops back, as a defender, you can pretty much ignore the half of the field he isn't looking at. He doesn't seem to manipulate the defense at all.

In comment 15063451 Britt in VA said:

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that was titled "what do you want in the next QB", the most consensus would be on what we appear to have here, starting with number one as the most popular from what I remember! 1. Needs to be able to make plays with his legs when the pocket collapses 2. Big/tall pocket passer that can re-establish the launch point with his legs, looking for the pass first, but able to run for the first down if neccessary. 3. Throws a good deep ball 4. Can go through his progressions and find the open man by reading a defense. I really think we have that guy. The guy we all wanted in our head was the prototype and it appears Daniel Jones at least has all of those traits, although they are developing. Protect him. Give him weapons. Then you'll see what he can really do.

number 4 is too slow.

is being clouded with "not having time to.

Baldinger showed it in the breakdown today, when he has a pocket, he can go through his progressions. It's hard to get off your first read when you are facing a jailbreak, which let's be honest, has been most of his time here until the recent weeks.

There is a MASSIVE disparity this year between Jones and the production from the second tier of QBs in this league.

Herbert - 23/7, 3015, 7.5
Tannehill - 23/4, 2608, 7.8
Cousins - 23/11, 2768, 8.7
Allen - 22/8, 3028, 7.8
Carr - 19/4, 2646, 7.6
Burrow - 13/5, 1688, 6.7
Minshew - 13/5, 1855, 6.9 (7 starts)
Jones - 8/9, 2335, 6.5

I'm not even going to bother comparing him to the elite guys. Jones isn't measuring up to even these guys I listed. He simply hasn't been good enough...if he were a veteran we'd all be looking to replace him ASAP.

You asked what we'd have wanted from a QB back in 2018. My answer is this: 30+ TDs, -10 INTs, 8.0+ YPA. That's what the elite guys are doing, and that's what Jones is supposed to be approaching as the 6th pick overall. But he isn't in that universe.

He has to do it now. If he doesn't, there are QBs coming out of college that can do what he is doing and more (in cases like Justin Herbert - much, much more).

This will be 2 seasons where Jones didn't get the job done to a level commensurate with what could reasonably be expected of him based on what we're seeing from other young QBs.

At minimum he should have to beat some actual competition for the starting QB job next year. It shouldn't be handed to him. If he wins it, great. Then go out and have a big year. Otherwise, it's time to start looking elsewhere at the position.

in 12 games, we weren't allowed to talk about that, only his negatives. And now we're hearing how he's not getting those types of numbers as if they never happened. Some of you don't even hide your bias.

In comment 15063500 BestFeature said:

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in 12 games, we weren't allowed to talk about that, only his negatives. And now we're hearing how he's not getting those types of numbers as if they never happened. Some of you don't even hide your bias.

Some of us pointed out his negatives last year, and sure enough those negatives have manifested themselves as real problems on the field this year. They have lost us games in a year where 7 wins would win the division going away.

Don't give Jones the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't deserve it. It's on him to kick the door down.

In comment 15063501 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15063500 BestFeature said: Quote: in 12 games, we weren't allowed to talk about that, only his negatives. And now we're hearing how he's not getting those types of numbers as if they never happened. Some of you don't even hide your bias. Some of us pointed out his negatives last year, and sure enough those negatives have manifested themselves as real problems on the field this year. They have lost us games in a year where 7 wins would win the division going away. Don't give Jones the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't deserve it. It's on him to kick the door down.

Exactly, now you moved the goalposts and he's not putting up those numbers that he put up last year that once again you're completely ignoring.

I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now.

Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert.

Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.

In comment 15063500 BestFeature said:

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in 12 games, we weren't allowed to talk about that, only his negatives. And now we're hearing how he's not getting those types of numbers as if they never happened. Some of you don't even hide your bias.

This is nonsense. I was incredibly high on Jones after last season. I'm not as high this season. I don't see the potential I saw last year. If Jones had the same season he had last year, this team would be 6-5 or 7-4.

Next year's the big year.

In comment 15063519 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 15063500 BestFeature said: Quote: in 12 games, we weren't allowed to talk about that, only his negatives. And now we're hearing how he's not getting those types of numbers as if they never happened. Some of you don't even hide your bias. This is nonsense. I was incredibly high on Jones after last season. I'm not as high this season. I don't see the potential I saw last year. If Jones had the same season he had last year, this team would be 6-5 or 7-4. Next year's the big year.

I was talking about Terps. Plus, he's playing in a different much more conservative system. That said he's clearly not as good as he was last year but he's been trending up lately. He had a good rookie year, nothing says that QB progression has to be linear. Lamar Jackson has also regressed as far as I know.

In comment 15063517 Go Terps said:

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I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.

You cherry picked some guys. What about Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, Haskins, and even Mayfield? This post is so misleading, making it sound like Jones is worse than every QB taken high in recent memory. He's somewhere in the middle.

We're searching for silver linings in his play, because if you step back his numbers are simply not good for a starting quarterback. 6.5 career YPA to date is downright abysmal. And it's eye opening to see other first round quarterbacks coming into the league and showing more promise early on.

I think my biggest concern with Jones is that it's now just accepted that he needs to be a running (not just mobile) quarterback in order to be most effective, and yet we're all sitting here waiting for the injury report update to see if we can cling to our sad division lead.

It's debatable that you can have a good running quarterback with longevity in the NFL. I would argue that even if that were the case, Jones' frame isn't really meant for that regardless of what his straight line speed is. With few exceptions, the Super Bowl trophy is hoisted up by quarterbacks that can win with their brains and arms. Even when Eli was struggling early in his career, he always seemed to find the correct guy to throw to. He had accuracy issues, but he was finding the open man. I would be a lot more optimistic about Jones if he was better at that part of the game.

There's at least one QB taken in the top 6 taken every year. If that was your standard then that's on you.

In comment 15063531 BestFeature said:

Quote:

In comment 15063517 Go Terps said: Quote: I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly. You cherry picked some guys. What about Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, Haskins, and even Mayfield? This post is so misleading, making it sound like Jones is worse than every QB taken high in recent memory. He's somewhere in the middle.

So your standard for Jones is the failures? We're drafted him sixth overall to simply be better than a failure? Do I have that right?

In comment 15063541 widmerseyebrow said:

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We're searching for silver linings in his play, because if you step back his numbers are simply not good for a starting quarterback. 6.5 career YPA to date is downright abysmal. And it's eye opening to see other first round quarterbacks coming into the league and showing more promise early on. I think my biggest concern with Jones is that it's now just accepted that he needs to be a running (not just mobile) quarterback in order to be most effective, and yet we're all sitting here waiting for the injury report update to see if we can cling to our sad division lead. It's debatable that you can have a good running quarterback with longevity in the NFL. I would argue that even if that were the case, Jones' frame isn't really meant for that regardless of what his straight line speed is. With few exceptions, the Super Bowl trophy is hoisted up by quarterbacks that can win with their brains and arms. Even when Eli was struggling early in his career, he always seemed to find the correct guy to throw to. He had accuracy issues, but he was finding the open man. I would be a lot more optimistic about Jones if he was better at that part of the game.

The YPA is due to a low attempt of deep balls, but there are stats that confirm he's good at them. So this has more to do with O-line and offense than his problem. His numbers ARE underwhelming, I agree. However, I do think that he's had a few games where he could have better numbers than he did, I don't think they're representative of what he is. He took a step back overall no doubt, but I feel like everyone seems to ignore his rookie season. Why isn't it possible that he returns to that but maybe fewer fumbles since he's improved there this year? He's a second year QB, he's not a 5 year vet.

In comment 15063550 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15063531 BestFeature said: Quote: In comment 15063517 Go Terps said: Quote: I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly. You cherry picked some guys. What about Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, Haskins, and even Mayfield? This post is so misleading, making it sound like Jones is worse than every QB taken high in recent memory. He's somewhere in the middle. So your standard for Jones is the failures? We're drafted him sixth overall to simply be better than a failure? Do I have that right?

My standard shouldn't be failures but expecting an elite QB shouldn't be the standard either. One's low expectations and one's unrealistic. Also, I'm just calling you out on how you made it sound like all of high pick QBs are outperforming him. It was misleading.

Just that his play to date shouldn't preclude us from trying to upgrade the position if opportunity presents itself this offseason or next. It's probably a moot point so long as Gettleman is the GM.

We've all seen that having a guy in the next tier who is top 5 occasionally is good enough too. I wouldn't bet the farm that Jones will reach that group either.

In comment 15063517 Go Terps said:

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I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.

What will you do with yourself when the Giants are a winning football team? Time is running out for you!

Mayfield is a better QB than Jones right now, and Jones would be a failed pick if that's all he is.

In comment 15063569 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 15063517 Go Terps said: Quote: I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly. What will you do with yourself when the Giants are a winning football team? Time is running out for you!

When is this going to happen?

In comment 15063572 BrettNYG10 said:

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Mayfield is a better QB than Jones right now, and Jones would be a failed pick if that's all he is.

But he's in his 3rd season and regressed in his second season just like Jones. If Jones doesn't improve from a guy that has 8 TDs and 9 INTs through 11 games yes he would be a failed pick. But it's his second season. And we saw much better production last season and many of his haters (although apparently not you) are ignoring last season. I was too when he was blowing chunks early on but he seems to have bounced back nicely recently so I have hope.

Engram, Shep, Slayton, and Tate is not a good cast to surround a QB with at all. Trade offensive weapons with QBs better with Jones and that QB's stats and level of play would drop, too. And while the OL has gotten better, it's mostly the run-blocking that has improved. Pass-blocking still needs to get better.

Unless a first round QB exhibits massive character, work ethic, or judgment flaws, I think he should get three years to show who he really is. He’ll get another shot next year, hopefully with a more competitive battle at the position.

Jones just hasn’t established he can both 1) move the team consistently and score touchdowns AND 2) not turn the ball over at a prohibitive rate.

He had a clean game against Philly and a clean game against Cincy, but didn’t he put the ball on ground twice against Washington? I don’t think that’s an unprecedented turnaround.

In comment 15063574 BrettNYG10 said:

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What will you do with yourself when the Giants are a winning football team? Time is running out for you! When is this going to happen?

It's happening!!! - ( New Window )

In comment 15063592 christian said:

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Unless a first round QB exhibits massive character, work ethic, or judgment flaws, I think he should get three years to show who he really is. He’ll get another shot next year, hopefully with a more competitive battle at the position. Jones just hasn’t established he can both 1) move the team consistently and score touchdowns AND 2) not turn the ball over at a prohibitive rate. He had a clean game against Philly and a clean game against Cincy, but didn’t he put the ball on ground twice against Washington? I don’t think that’s an unprecedented turnaround.

He didn't lose either fumble vs. Washington. He's clearly improved though. It's not just being cleaner he's been making good throws. I know it's just Cincinnati but he could have easily had 2 TDs in a little over half a game against Cinci if Engram scored and Slayton didn't drop the ball.

In comment 15063561 BestFeature said:

Quote:

In comment 15063550 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15063531 BestFeature said: Quote: In comment 15063517 Go Terps said: Quote: I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly. You cherry picked some guys. What about Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, Haskins, and even Mayfield? This post is so misleading, making it sound like Jones is worse than every QB taken high in recent memory. He's somewhere in the middle. So your standard for Jones is the failures? We're drafted him sixth overall to simply be better than a failure? Do I have that right? My standard shouldn't be failures but expecting an elite QB shouldn't be the standard either. One's low expectations and one's unrealistic. Also, I'm just calling you out on how you made it sound like all of high pick QBs are outperforming him. It was misleading.

The question we need answered with regards to Jones is this: should he be in consideration for a second contract? Based on guys like Carr and Wentz, that might look like 4-5 years around $30M a year. Is Jones worth that right now? Does he look like he'll be worth that in a year or two?

That's the question to ask because if the answer is no, then we should be open to drafting his replacement if the opportunity arises. I'll give you the perfect example...Justin Herbert. At the time, I wouldn't have drafted him to replace Jones. I watched a lot of him at Oregon and didn't see what he has become in the NFL. With the gift of hindsight would I go back and draft him instead of Andrew Thomas? Abso-fucking-lutely.

That's the head space the Giants need to be in starting this winter. If they aren't ready to commit to Jones in the long term they need to at least be prepared if the opportunity to jump if the opportunity to draft a talented kid arises. I'm not saying get rid of Jones; I'm just saying his presence can't be what keeps you from taking a shot at someone else if a good opportunity arises (like Herbert was this past spring).

The cost of a top QB contract is so high in this league that it has divided the league into two classes: those with the few elite QBs (KC, SEA, GB, HOU, maybe BAL) and those that should never pass on an opportunity to draft a talented QB (everybody else).

Right now the answer to that question above is that Jones is not worth 5 years at $30M per. It's on Jones to change that answer from "no" to "yes". Until he does, the Giants are better off staying in rookie contracts at QB.

...need to at least be prepared to jump and draft a talented kid arises.

Unless Jones drastically improves the Giants should stay in rookie contracts at QB, because as we've seen above his production is very easily replaced by kids coming out of college - he hasn't established a difficult standard to attain.

In comment 15063604 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Unless Jones drastically improves the Giants should stay in rookie contracts at QB, because as we've seen above his production is very easily replaced by kids coming out of college - he hasn't established a difficult standard to attain.

I disagree big time there. You think a rookie QB can come in here and total 250-300 total yards every week and throw with the accuracy Jones has displayed virtually all year long?

Jones has been a good QB the last 3 weeks. Make no mistake. And this coming from someone who killed him up until 3 weeks ago. I am not shy about Jones to task but he's been good lately. He was well on his way to 300 + passing yards on Sunday.

You're trying to reinvent the wheel. NFL teams don't operate like that in regards to QB. Just because it's a passing league now doesn't mean good QBs grow on trees. And in this offense under Judge? I don't think this is an easy offense to master.

In comment 15063425 Britt in VA said:

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improve. That goes for Jones and the whole team. You are seeing it with your own eyes right now. We now have what looks to be a young, offensive line that can hold blocks. Now in this draft we need to get a big, physical WR that can go up and get the 50/50 balls, and gets consistent separation. If we can find a true TE while we're at it, all the better. It's a symbiotic relationship. As the team improves, Jones will improve, and the points/passing TD's will come. It's not like he doesn't have the ability to put it on a rope and dime like he did to Golden Tate in the 4th QTR against Tampa with the game on the line. There was nothing lolipop about that throw. Link - ( New Window )

In this case Britt, I couldn't agree more.
The OL has a symbiotic relationship with both QB play, and RB play. Improve the OL and you improve both of the others as well. Been saying this for years.

And I agree the line was atrocious. They have improved to middle of the pack. And that is huge.

Why it took Gettleman 3 years before making a significant investment in the OL I will never know. I guess it wasn't like he needed to replace 100% of the OL when he came in... Oh wait...

you make it sound so easy like you're playing god in a madden simulator. teams don't operate that way.

I can see it now, Jones kicks ass in 2021, we win 11 games, Jones throws for 4000 yards, 28 TDs and rushes for another 4-5 and 400 yards and ok guys, time to draft a QB within the first 2 rounds because we want to get cheap at the position.

That kind of move would go over like a fart in church. The team would likely revolt. The fans definitely would. And you'd be phasing the QB you spent years developing out the door. You'd be fired the second that new QB shit his pants.

In comment 15063620 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 15063604 Go Terps said: Quote: Unless Jones drastically improves the Giants should stay in rookie contracts at QB, because as we've seen above his production is very easily replaced by kids coming out of college - he hasn't established a difficult standard to attain. I disagree big time there. You think a rookie QB can come in here and total 250-300 total yards every week and throw with the accuracy Jones has displayed virtually all year long? Jones has been a good QB the last 3 weeks. Make no mistake. And this coming from someone who killed him up until 3 weeks ago. I am not shy about Jones to task but he's been good lately. He was well on his way to 300 + passing yards on Sunday. You're trying to reinvent the wheel. NFL teams don't operate like that in regards to QB. Just because it's a passing league now doesn't mean good QBs grow on trees. And in this offense under Judge? I don't think this is an easy offense to master.

300 passing yards isn't a big deal in today's game. It feels like it is because the QB play here has been poor for a while, but it isn't.

Good QBs may not grow on trees; but QBs that play at Jones's current level do grow on trees:

23 games
7-16
6.5 YPA
32/21
Good rushing, but lots of fumbles too

His resume to this point is pretty poor. No way around it.

In comment 15063626 djm said:

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you make it sound so easy like you're playing god in a madden simulator. teams don't operate that way. I can see it now, Jones kicks ass in 2021, we win 11 games, Jones throws for 4000 yards, 28 TDs and rushes for another 4-5 and 400 yards and ok guys, time to draft a QB within the first 2 rounds because we want to get cheap at the position. That kind of move would go over like a fart in church. The team would likely revolt. The fans definitely would. And you'd be phasing the QB you spent years developing out the door. You'd be fired the second that new QB shit his pants.

These wet dreams about the Giants turning it around and having a huge successful season never seem to actually play out.

He does play reasonably well against bad teams. Just like last year (although he played better last year against bad teams).

In this current three game winning streak, we've played WFT, Philly, and Cincy. All subpar teams. I TD pass.

But when we've played quality teams like Tampa, Rams, Pittsburgh, and San Fran, he's been pretty putrid.

91/150 (60%), 5.98 YPA, 4 TDs/6 INTs.

So there really needs to be change in this area...and soon.

In comment 15063517 Go Terps said:g

Quote:

I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by I Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. Ok He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.

No offense, but that’s just fucking ridiculous. If that’s the bar, then the Giants don’t win either of their previous two Super Bowls because Eli Manning (FIRST OVERALL PICK) sure as heck wasn’t elite early in his career or remotely as good as Big Ben through 2005. He was never as good as Brady, Favre, or Rodgers. He didn’t need to be because none of that shit is important.

You mentioned Josh Allen. Compare his numbers in his first 23 starts with Jones... there’s not a whole lot of difference outside of TD runs, which were a result of the Bills’ offense. And can we please stop with the YPA nonsense. It has zero predictive value when it comes to young QBs.

In comment 15063623 .McL. said:

Quote:

In comment 15063425 Britt in VA said: Quote: improve. That goes for Jones and the whole team. You are seeing it with your own eyes right now. We now have what looks to be a young, offensive line that can hold blocks. Now in this draft we need to get a big, physical WR that can go up and get the 50/50 balls, and gets consistent separation. If we can find a true TE while we're at it, all the better. It's a symbiotic relationship. As the team improves, Jones will improve, and the points/passing TD's will come. It's not like he doesn't have the ability to put it on a rope and dime like he did to Golden Tate in the 4th QTR against Tampa with the game on the line. There was nothing lolipop about that throw. Link - ( New Window ) In this case Britt, I couldn't agree more. The OL has a symbiotic relationship with both QB play, and RB play. Improve the OL and you improve both of the others as well. Been saying this for years. And I agree the line was atrocious. They have improved to middle of the pack. And that is huge. Why it took Gettleman 3 years before making a significant investment in the OL I will never know. I guess it wasn't like he needed to replace 100% of the OL when he came in... Oh wait...

He had replaced 100% of the O-line by the halfway point of the first season. Are you implying he should have just done what he did this draft as if it’s easy to hit on three starting offensive linemen as if it’s easy to replace five players with 100% accuracy? Because damn, we should have done that in 2012.

In comment 15063596 BestFeature said:

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He didn't lose either fumble vs. Washington. He's clearly improved though. It's not just being cleaner he's been making good throws. I know it's just Cincinnati but he could have easily had 2 TDs in a little over half a game against Cinci if Engram scored and Slayton didn't drop the ball.

The ball fell out of his hands and onto the ground. I think that's kinda the problem, not whether someone was there to pick it up.

And I totally get there have been lost opportunities on the receiving end of throws -- I don't fault Jones for that. But to declare he's turning the corner, I'd like to see on average another TD a game, literally.

He signed Solder in free agency and drafted Hernandez with a high 2nd right out of the gate. Solder didn’t work out, but once again, see above

In comment 15063635 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

Quote:

In comment 15063517 Go Terps said:g Quote: I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now. Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by I Herbert. Jones was drafted to be an elite player. Ok He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly. No offense, but that’s just fucking ridiculous. If that’s the bar, then the Giants don’t win either of their previous two Super Bowls because Eli Manning (FIRST OVERALL PICK) sure as heck wasn’t elite early in his career or remotely as good as Big Ben through 2005. He was never as good as Brady, Favre, or Rodgers. He didn’t need to be because none of that shit is important. You mentioned Josh Allen. Compare his numbers in his first 23 starts with Jones... there’s not a whole lot of difference outside of TD runs, which were a result of the Bills’ offense. And can we please stop with the YPA nonsense. It has zero predictive value when it comes to young QBs.

Eli was NEVER elite. Closest he came was 2011 but even then his stats weren't near top 5. Though in context he was better than those numbers but I'd still say he wasn't.

I think Eli was elite in 2011. Fourth in yards, 4th in Y/A, 6th in TDs, 7th in rating with an atrocious OL.

And that's not even including being the best QB in the playoffs.

In comment 15063656 BrettNYG10 said:

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I think Eli was elite in 2011. Fourth in yards, 4th in Y/A, 6th in TDs, 7th in rating with an atrocious OL. And that's not even including being the best QB in the playoffs.

Even then throughout his career he wasn't an elite QB. So hoping Jones is elite is a stretch. I hope so too and think it's possible, but that's an unfair expectation.

When you sign a QB to a second contract that’s what you need to get in today’s NFL. DJ is showing signs of being that guy. I see people pointing out that DJ plays well against good teams and poorly against good teams. No shit. He’s a second year QB with below average weapons and a middle of the road offensive line. Expecting him to be that guy now is ridiculous. Do we even know Mahomes is that guy without KCs weapons, line, and HOF coach? And I think Mahomes is the best QB I’ve ever seen.

Zeke — I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Jones is playing like a young quarterback, with mediocre skill players, and an emerging but still pretty shitty pass protecting line.

That’s why the notion of him completing an unprecedented turning of the corner is fucking hilarious.

In comment 15063685 christian said:

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Zeke — I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Jones is playing like a young quarterback, with mediocre skill players, and an emerging but still pretty shitty pass protecting line. That’s why the notion of him completing an unprecedented turning of the corner is fucking hilarious.

That’s what most of us have been saying for weeks/months.

...but not emphasized enough, it's not your typical second-year QB situation when you consider the new coaching staff, new offense, no OTAs or minicamps, a limited training camp, no preseason games. Oh, and it's the youngest team in the league with a lot of that youth on the OL (including a center who is snapping for the first time in his life in a real game or any game at all, his only other snaps were with a teammate across from him).

In comment 15063635 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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You mentioned Josh Allen. Compare his numbers in his first 23 starts with Jones... there’s not a whole lot of difference outside of TD runs, which were a result of the Bills’ offense. And can we please stop with the YPA nonsense. It has zero predictive value when it comes to young QBs.

Josh Allen has made a huge leap as a passer in his third year. He got by in years 1 and 2 based on his running ability - and he was more productive in that area than Jones has been. I agree with you...Jones's first two years are kind of comparable to Allen's first two. Allen was a poor passer who made a rare leap...is Jones going to do the same?

As for YPA...I'm not trying to predict anything with that stat. I'm trying to assess the quality of Jones's performance.

He's a guy with a 6.5 YPA when the league average is 7.3, and the elite passers are over 8. That's what Jones is.

In comment 15063693 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15063635 shockeyisthebest8056 said: Quote: You mentioned Josh Allen. Compare his numbers in his first 23 starts with Jones... there’s not a whole lot of difference outside of TD runs, which were a result of the Bills’ offense. And can we please stop with the YPA nonsense. It has zero predictive value when it comes to young QBs. Josh Allen has made a huge leap as a passer in his third year. He got by in years 1 and 2 based on his running ability - and he was more productive in that area than Jones has been. I agree with you...Jones's first two years are kind of comparable to Allen's first two. Allen was a poor passer who made a rare leap...is Jones going to do the same? As for YPA...I'm not trying to predict anything with that stat. I'm trying to assess the quality of Jones's performance. He's a guy with a 6.5 YPA when the league average is 7.3, and the elite passers are over 8. That's what Jones is.

nope.. you're wrong. Jones is suddenly a perennial top-10 QB because he had a good game against the Bengals. I'm kidding of course. You are 100% correct. Jones' overall stats are abysmal. Eventually he will have to put up elite stats to be considered elite. What a concept.

.

In comment 15063674 Zeke's Alibi said:

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I see people pointing out that DJ plays well against good teams and poorly against good teams. No shit.

I raised this point because everyone basically plays good/great versus subpar teams. BFD.

Yet we applaud Jones for a three game stretch against subpar teams where he's produced a total of one TD pass. Read this slowly - one TD pass. And somehow this is some strong indication that Jones has turned this all important "corner". Unbelievable.

Look, if we are subtly saying that Jones just needs to meet game manager/game manager plus to confirm his high draft slot, then I have sorely misjudged where a fan's expectations should be for a QB chosen with the 6th pick.

In comment 15063713 Britt in VA said:

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.

This is true. But if you don't have an elite guy on a massive contract, you can skin the cat the other way by keeping the position cheap. Where you get in to trouble is paying non-elite guys like they're elite.

Take this season as an example. If Jones is getting paid Wentz money are we as likely to sign Martinez, Bradberry, and Ryan? Extrapolate that question over four or five years and you begin to see the impact of overpaying a QB.

Make Jones earn it. If he does (like Mahomes and Watson clearly have in recent years), then great...pay him. If not, move on and continue to use the cap to build up the rest of the roster. That's how you stay fluid and adaptable year to year.

Once you pay a Wentz, Stafford, Cousins, Garoppolo, etc...you are bound to that guy. Every decision has to be made around him, and if he doesn't work out...

with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions.

In comment 15063713 Britt in VA said:

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.

It is demonstrably easier to win with an elite QB than with a non-elite QB. Look who wins championships, mostly it is elite QBs. Would you rather be in the category of 8 teams with elite QBs who challenge every single year or would you rather be a team in a group of 26 teams and maybe one or two of you gets a trophy every ten years.

In comment 15063738 BestFeature said:

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with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions.

Seeking truth and speaking truth is not rooting for the Giants to suck.

In comment 15063738 BestFeature said:

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with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions.

Here's my advice for you - get your expectations up. This is the 6th pick in the draft with almost a full year under his belt from his rookie season.

Not a fourth round, project draft choice...

In comment 15063748 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15063738 BestFeature said: Quote: with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions. Here's my advice for you - get your expectations up. This is the 6th pick in the draft with almost a full year under his belt from his rookie season. Not a fourth round, project draft choice...

QBs are not guaranteed to be elite at any pick. He's neither great, no terrible, which is what you get at #6 quite often. As such for a second year player he's not far from my expectations. Maybe in a year or 2 it won't cut it. It wasn't cutting it earlier in the season but he's been trending in the right direction.

In comment 15063741 Producer said:

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In comment 15063713 Britt in VA said: Quote: . It is demonstrably easier to win with an elite QB than with a non-elite QB. Look who wins championships, mostly it is elite QBs. Would you rather be in the category of 8 teams with elite QBs who challenge every single year or would you rather be a team in a group of 26 teams and maybe one or two of you gets a trophy every ten years.

This is a misleading statement because most of those championships over the past 20 years were won by QB’s of a soon to be bygone era. All those dudes are on the way out. Who’s to say there will be another crop like them? I see Mahoney has a shot at it, but even he was a few playcalls of Kyle Shanahan going in a shell of being an also ran. Not to mention, of the past 20 years 12 superbowls were won by 4 guys. Everybody else got 1 each. Kind of skews the stat a little considering there aren’t many 2 or more time Super Bowl winning qbs in NFL history.

Autocorrect.

In comment 15063690 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 15063685 christian said: Quote: Zeke — I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Jones is playing like a young quarterback, with mediocre skill players, and an emerging but still pretty shitty pass protecting line. That’s why the notion of him completing an unprecedented turning of the corner is fucking hilarious. That’s what most of us have been saying for weeks/months.

That’s what most of are saying today.

.

In comment 15063738 BestFeature said:

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with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions.

I am a Giant fan, and I want them to start winning. If the players they currently have prevent them from winning I am not going to wish those players to become something they aren't.

Being a fan of the team isn't going to impact how I view their performance. I want Jones to kick ass and I root for him on Sunday...but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

There are two worlds when it comes to the Giants: what we want, and what is. It's important to keep those two worlds separate.

In comment 15063768 Britt in VA said:

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.

Jones being young, the weapons sucking, the line sucking in protection, and the notion anything’s resembled an unprecedented turnaround isn’t anything I’ve had to come around. It’s been obvious for weeks.

is a metric about the Giants passing game and all its offensive players.

Turnovers and observations of his time in pocket are enough evidence of concern without needing to add more questionable data into the mix of argumentation. imo.

His recent run of no turnovers and better play is across 15% of his games played so easily within a band of good (and some luck on some throws) play and not remotely evidence that any statistically valid corner has been turned or earned.

Nor is a top five QB needed to win a SB...most who win a SB are not in fact top five QBs over time.

But its really rare to be below a top 12 NFL QB and win a SB.

One last item...there is nothing about Eli Mannings career or performance that gives solid ground for comparison to anyone else. I swear he had the highest delta between good and bad play from game to game and play to play offset by remarkable durability. Any given season he gave tape that showed elite NFL QB and below average NFL Qb. They all do but he sat 40% of the time 40% different from his high to low.

Great Giant. Easy to root for. Class over class. Not a good comparison for the next player. Which Eli are you comparing to?

In comment 15063644 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 15063623 .McL. said: Quote: In comment 15063425 Britt in VA said: Quote: improve. That goes for Jones and the whole team. You are seeing it with your own eyes right now. We now have what looks to be a young, offensive line that can hold blocks. Now in this draft we need to get a big, physical WR that can go up and get the 50/50 balls, and gets consistent separation. If we can find a true TE while we're at it, all the better. It's a symbiotic relationship. As the team improves, Jones will improve, and the points/passing TD's will come. It's not like he doesn't have the ability to put it on a rope and dime like he did to Golden Tate in the 4th QTR against Tampa with the game on the line. There was nothing lolipop about that throw. Link - ( New Window ) In this case Britt, I couldn't agree more. The OL has a symbiotic relationship with both QB play, and RB play. Improve the OL and you improve both of the others as well. Been saying this for years. And I agree the line was atrocious. They have improved to middle of the pack. And that is huge. Why it took Gettleman 3 years before making a significant investment in the OL I will never know. I guess it wasn't like he needed to replace 100% of the OL when he came in... Oh wait... He had replaced 100% of the O-line by the halfway point of the first season. Are you implying he should have just done what he did this draft as if it’s easy to hit on three starting offensive linemen as if it’s easy to replace five players with 100% accuracy? Because damn, we should have done that in 2012.

2018 was the deepest draft for OL in over a decade. I am implying he should have done what he did this year back in '18... I would have liked to have seen 3 premium picks on OL in '18. He used 2 in '20, seems to have gotten lucky with a 3rd day pick this time...

I have been saying for years, the ONLY way to build a competent OL in the current NFL is through the draft. Teams don't let competent OL walk. They are too rare and valuable these days.

The only way to RELIABLY and COST EFFECTIVELY way to build an OL is through the draft. You can pay wayyy too much and hope to get luck in FA. Probably not going to work. Giants a re a good case study.

Not only because it makes it more difficult for the Giants to win but because it’s less games to evaluate Jones. This would’ve been a valuable stretch of games to evaluate Jones but now there will be a built in excuse. He’s also inching closer to the injury prone tag.

Jones has done some things well and other things not so well. TBD at this point, and no one should be sold either way. The organization should not be married to him if he doesn’t show more by the end of his rookie deal.

In comment 15063776 Bill2 said:

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is a metric about the Giants passing game and all its offensive players. Turnovers and observations of his time in pocket are enough evidence of concern without needing to add more questionable data into the mix of argumentation. imo. His recent run of no turnovers and better play is across 15% of his games played so easily within a band of good (and some luck on some throws) play and not remotely evidence that any statistically valid corner has been turned or earned. Nor is a top five QB needed to win a SB...most who win a SB are not in fact top five QBs over time. But its really rare to be below a top 12 NFL QB and win a SB. One last item...there is nothing about Eli Mannings career or performance that gives solid ground for comparison to anyone else. I swear he had the highest delta between good and bad play from game to game and play to play offset by remarkable durability. Any given season he gave tape that showed elite NFL QB and below average NFL Qb. They all do but he sat 40% of the time 40% different from his high to low. Great Giant. Easy to root for. Class over class. Not a good comparison for the next player. Which Eli are you comparing to?

Thanks Bill2. You must ended the thread and hopefully (not holding my breath) any more comparisons to Eli

In comment 15063756 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15063741 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15063713 Britt in VA said: Quote: . It is demonstrably easier to win with an elite QB than with a non-elite QB. Look who wins championships, mostly it is elite QBs. Would you rather be in the category of 8 teams with elite QBs who challenge every single year or would you rather be a team in a group of 26 teams and maybe one or two of you gets a trophy every ten years. This is a misleading statement because most of those championships over the past 20 years were won by QB’s of a soon to be bygone era. All those dudes are on the way out. Who’s to say there will be another crop like them? I see Mahoney has a shot at it, but even he was a few playcalls of Kyle Shanahan going in a shell of being an also ran. Not to mention, of the past 20 years 12 superbowls were won by 4 guys. Everybody else got 1 each. Kind of skews the stat a little considering there aren’t many 2 or more time Super Bowl winning qbs in NFL history.

Great point Britt about the skewing of stats by Brady winning 6 SB's .

But I think if you keep digging in on Jones like this, you're gonna paint yourself in a corner. Just an observation..

throw 2019 out the window and into the trash. It means nothing.

2019 was a different staff. Different expectations and Jones wasn't under the same pressure he is under now. Not to diminish NFL games but 2019 saw games that flowed in a much different manner than the games have gone this year for Jones. Also, the league didn't know about Jones yet. The Giants were not playing meaningful games once November rolled around and most of the time the games were over by the time the 4th quarter rolled around.

This has for all intents been the first real year for Jones, and I don't mean to just ignore what he did in year 1, but the Tampa comeback didn't matter anymore when Jones was struggling this year did it?

Jones has been fine the last 3 weeks and there's plenty of real data and anecdotal evidence to support the belief that Jones has in fact turned a corner.

Why the fuck we are sitting here discussing his contract in 2-3 more years I will never know. Some of you live to worry about shit.

everyone loved him after his rookie year--yippee he won a few games during the honeymoon phase but that was year one. He showed he at least belonged but he didn't show enough to conclude anything just yet. it was too soon and the NFL was going to adjust to Baker. Was Baker going to counter? By the time year 2 was in the books no one give a fuck how Baker looked in year one.

Every QB flashes in year one and if they don't they are toast. Not every QB lasts until year 3. That's the real question here.

Jones is showing he is worthy of starting. Just keep it up.

next big game he wins will be his first.

In comment 15063572 BrettNYG10 said:

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Mayfield is a better QB than Jones right now, and Jones would be a failed pick if that's all he is.

Really? Mayfield has so much more around him right now it's not even debatable. He's got two pro bowl caliber RBs and has had a solid OL all year long while Jones was getting obliterated early on.

Context matters even if Jones deserved the heat he took through October.

In comment 15063629 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15063620 djm said: Quote: In comment 15063604 Go Terps said: Quote: Unless Jones drastically improves the Giants should stay in rookie contracts at QB, because as we've seen above his production is very easily replaced by kids coming out of college - he hasn't established a difficult standard to attain. I disagree big time there. You think a rookie QB can come in here and total 250-300 total yards every week and throw with the accuracy Jones has displayed virtually all year long? Jones has been a good QB the last 3 weeks. Make no mistake. And this coming from someone who killed him up until 3 weeks ago. I am not shy about Jones to task but he's been good lately. He was well on his way to 300 + passing yards on Sunday. You're trying to reinvent the wheel. NFL teams don't operate like that in regards to QB. Just because it's a passing league now doesn't mean good QBs grow on trees. And in this offense under Judge? I don't think this is an easy offense to master. 300 passing yards isn't a big deal in today's game. It feels like it is because the QB play here has been poor for a while, but it isn't. Good QBs may not grow on trees; but QBs that play at Jones's current level do grow on trees: 23 games 7-16 6.5 YPA 32/21 Good rushing, but lots of fumbles too His resume to this point is pretty poor. No way around it.

JFC terps you're going to conjure up his seasonal stats and ignore the progression the last 3 weeks? I give up with you. You are moving the goalposts it's like you wake up and just want to argue shit with people. 6 weeks ago you were saying you believed in jones despite him being at rock bottom, literally, you said those very words. Now you're radaring us with this shit. Cmon already.

Also, 300 passing yards a game breaks down to 4800 passing yards in a season. That is most definitely a big deal.

In comment 15063748 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15063738 BestFeature said: Quote: with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions. Here's my advice for you - get your expectations up. This is the 6th pick in the draft with almost a full year under his belt from his rookie season. Not a fourth round, project draft choice...

Full year under his belt from a different system with a different staff.

Context people. It's not all black and white.

after being really high on him last year. But, the fact remains he haas all the physical ability. He can run, he can deliver an accurate ball and he can step into a long throw. His only really bad game this year was against the Bucs on a very windy night. Brady was all over the place himself. Anyway, my issue with him is reading the field. I do believe that has gotten progressively better as the weeks have gone on and his pocket presence has improved. Again, I do not have a firm opinion on him yet, but I feel myself back in the corner of this is a guy we can win with. He is not Rodgers, Manning, Brady, or Mahommes, but few are. We won 4 Super Bowls with QBs in the second (Manning and Simms) and third (Hoss) tiers of the QB echelon.

anyone would--but you can't deny the progress he's made the last 3 weeks or so. As of now he's in a good groove and that's a level of play we can clearly win with. Also find it weird that people are now downplaying how well Jones looked against so called crappy teams philly and Wash? Those teams play good defense. That's a ridiculous take.

In comment 15064338 djm said:

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anyone would--but you can't deny the progress he's made the last 3 weeks or so. As of now he's in a good groove and that's a level of play we can clearly win with. Also find it weird that people are now downplaying how well Jones looked against so called crappy teams philly and Wash? Those teams play good defense. That's a ridiculous take.

+1

I've always maintained there are a number of QBs with the tools be good (Jones included) and the better predictor of success is the stability of the coach/management situation.

The rub is the guys with the tools get drafted by the worst teams, and the worst teams typically have bad coaching and management. I feel like Jones + Judge is one of those Goldilocks situations where it's just right.

I don't believe Jones has elite individuals skills (like Murray, Jackson, Mahomes, Rodgers) -- so he won't transcend the limits of his surroundings.

But I do believe he has the requisite skills to be a winner if the surroundings improve. But when you add a B quarterback, D skills players, and D pass protection -- you get the Giants. I frankly blame the management for that.

In comment 15064348 christian said:

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I've always maintained there are a number of QBs with the tools be good (Jones included) and the better predictor of success is the stability of the coach/management situation. The rub is the guys with the tools get drafted by the worst teams, and the worst teams typically have bad coaching and management. I feel like Jones + Judge is one of those Goldilocks situations where it's just right. I don't believe Jones has elite individuals skills (like Murray, Jackson, Mahomes, Rodgers) -- so he won't transcend the limits of his surroundings. But I do believe he has the requisite skills to be a winner if the surroundings improve. But when you add a B quarterback, D skills players, and D pass protection -- you get the Giants. I frankly blame the management for that.

Absolutely. If the Giants were a well put together team, I think they could do well with Jones at QB. But they aren't, so they don't.

And again, the critical question that should always be in the background is "Should we pay Jones $30M a year for 4-5 years?" Because once we pay him that contract it becomes harder to get A & B level skill players, pass protection, etc.

The time to have the strong team around the QB is right now during Jones's rookie deal. And we don't. That's the nature of Gettleman's failure and why he should be replaced with someone who has a better grasp of resource allocation and timing.

In comment 15064096 djm said:

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In comment 15063748 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15063738 BestFeature said: Quote: with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions. Here's my advice for you - get your expectations up. This is the 6th pick in the draft with almost a full year under his belt from his rookie season. Not a fourth round, project draft choice... Full year under his belt from a different system with a different staff. Context people. It's not all black and white.

Not seeing the field on a consistent basis is now beccause of a different system? This problem manifested itself in Durham and last year.

I continue to be amazed - probably floored is the better word - how many posters think Jones is just part of the drink and not the straw that should stir it.

I likely believe his upside is higher than you do. I think he has plus traits. Accuracy, anticipation, touch and athleticism. I see ball security, vision and failure to know when to quit to be his weaknesses. The last 3 weeks are not nearly enough to say anything definitive on the guy. These game are the outliers this season. Make key plays against a good teams to secure a win. Do it again, and we might have something.

In comment 15064338 djm said:

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anyone would--but you can't deny the progress he's made the last 3 weeks or so. As of now he's in a good groove and that's a level of play we can clearly win with. Also find it weird that people are now downplaying how well Jones looked against so called crappy teams philly and Wash? Those teams play good defense. That's a ridiculous take.

Fair point regarding those defenses...they are pretty good.

And you also described DJ well...he is showing "progress" lately off a poor start to the season. I think some takes on here can go a little overboard as to the level he has reached.

In comment 15064338 djm said:

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anyone would--but you can't deny the progress he's made the last 3 weeks or so. As of now he's in a good groove and that's a level of play we can clearly win with. Also find it weird that people are now downplaying how well Jones looked against so called crappy teams philly and Wash? Those teams play good defense. That's a ridiculous take.

I believe that everybody acknowledges that Jones has played better in the last 3 games.

However, it is a combination of a small sample and a poor sample to make any judgements as to whether or not the improvement is a permanent thing. Those ARE crappy teams that the Giants beat. Also 3 games is not enough. We could just easily see him revert to prior form over the next 5 weeks, or maintain this level. If he maintains this level over the course of a season, or at least 12 games, then I think we can say that the new level of performance is likely a permanent improvement.

That said, the improvement has been incremental. We are not seeing a completely different QB. He is still late with throws, he still has trouble making the right reads and finding the open man. 2 things have happened the OL has improved, giving him more time in the pocket and so making his lack of pocket awareness less of a liability, and he isn't getting hit so many times resulting in fewer fumbles. It has also given him more time do read the field and make decisions, again possibly hiding a deficiency in the speed of his decision making. On Jones himself, he seems to have gotten much better about throwing balls away and not holding on and making a stupid play. At least to me, it is unclear just how much of the improved QB play is attributable to Jones and how much to the OL, as well as whether or not the improvement is lasting.

So if you see people taking a measured approach rather than crowning him a top 5 QB and the Giants a SB contender that can play with anybody you understand why. 3 games against crappy is not statistically significant enough to get us there. However, you do see all the bearish posters saying there is improvement, there is hope now. For the longest time the bears were say that as they were constituted at the time, there was no hope. There is always going to be a gap between the bulls and the bears. But you have to recognize the bear have moved in a more optimistic direction lately, but can't expect back flips.

Personally I'd like Jones to be stirring through a milkshake and not the cement he's surrounded by now.

But it's crystal clear Jones needing to make basic strides and the surrounding offense to be much more talented aren't mutually exclusive.

And that's how you average 19.5 points/game and 5.0 yards/play.

...simply put, the difference in play of the O-line between last season, this September through today is remarkable. I saw Colt McCoy able to complete passes with that line.

Not to take anything away from D.J. - I believe in the kid, and there has been marked improvement in turnovers... partly due to dramatic OL improvement, but much falls on decision making and doing a better job when things fall apart.

I don't care if he's playing crappy teams, those are NOT Pro Bowl receiver's he's throwing to.

I look at the Jets, at Darnold (who I wanted) and their head coach and I'm really happy things worked out the way they did for the Giants.

He's definitely improved. Turned a corner? YUP.

In comment 15064353 Go Terps said:

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And again, the critical question that should always be in the background is "Should we pay Jones $30M a year for 4-5 years?" Because once we pay him that contract it becomes harder to get A & B level skill players, pass protection, etc. The time to have the strong team around the QB is right now during Jones's rookie deal. And we don't. That's the nature of Gettleman's failure and why he should be replaced with someone who has a better grasp of resource allocation and timing.

The concept of timing is paramount. Building a winning team isn't an exercise of collecting the best players indiscriminately. It's a purposeful balance of the right cost, age, and talent.

This is why the swing and misses in UFA, trades, and drafts in 18 & 19 are so disappointing. Jones (and even Barkley) could have easily slotted into a much better team and hit the ground running.

In comment 15064085 djm said:

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In comment 15063572 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Mayfield is a better QB than Jones right now, and Jones would be a failed pick if that's all he is. Really? Mayfield has so much more around him right now it's not even debatable. He's got two pro bowl caliber RBs and has had a solid OL all year long while Jones was getting obliterated early on. Context matters even if Jones deserved the heat he took through October.

Mayfield is still better right now - I'm well aware of the context.

In comment 15064518 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 15064085 djm said: Quote: In comment 15063572 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Mayfield is a better QB than Jones right now, and Jones would be a failed pick if that's all he is. Really? Mayfield has so much more around him right now it's not even debatable. He's got two pro bowl caliber RBs and has had a solid OL all year long while Jones was getting obliterated early on. Context matters even if Jones deserved the heat he took through October. Mayfield is still better right now - I'm well aware of the context.

yea I hear you--i just wonder if Baker is doing any better than Jones did during the dark stretch of this season. I think truly great QBs would do more, but I am not sure Baker is elevating his play enough to win those games, but maybe he would have. I don't think he's a bad player by any stretch.

Doesn't even matter anymore. I don't care how bad Jones was, I only care about how good he is now and going forward. People conjuring up stats from this entire season are wasting their time in my view. If this was year 2-3 with Judge ok fine, but it's year 1. We need to look at Jones incrementally this season. Of course we need to see progress, and we are.

djm, generally agree. I think Mayfield is better today but I don't know if it changes the Giants record by more than a game - I don't think Mayfield is what Jones should aspire to - I think he's average or so (I also think the Browns record is a mirage, but that's a different subject).

My concern with Jones isn't about this year - people want to throw out this year, and that's fine. My concern is we get an average year out of Jones next season (and maybe a 7-9/8-8 record) and people look at that as progress, but I think what we get out of Jones next year is it. Players don't develop linearly. If Jones is an average guy next year, I'm sort of concerned that's all he is going to be and we're caught talking ourselves into an average QB and team and another year goes by where we're rationalizing and not improving.

I don't know what to make of Jones. I'm pretty confident he's not going to be a top five QB, which is fine. But I don't have the conviction others do in him being a quality starter. He's a huge question mark at this stage. I wouldn't be shocked if he wound up as a Pro Bowler at some point, but wouldn't be shocked if he isn't a starter in 2023, either.

In comment 15065266 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

djm, generally agree. I think Mayfield is better today but I don't know if it changes the Giants record by more than a game - I don't think Mayfield is what Jones should aspire to - I think he's average or so (I also think the Browns record is a mirage, but that's a different subject). My concern with Jones isn't about this year - people want to throw out this year, and that's fine. My concern is we get an average year out of Jones next season (and maybe a 7-9/8-8 record) and people look at that as progress, but I think what we get out of Jones next year is it. Players don't develop linearly. If Jones is an average guy next year, I'm sort of concerned that's all he is going to be and we're caught talking ourselves into an average QB and team and another year goes by where we're rationalizing and not improving. I don't know what to make of Jones. I'm pretty confident he's not going to be a top five QB, which is fine. But I don't have the conviction others do in him being a quality starter. He's a huge question mark at this stage. I wouldn't be shocked if he wound up as a Pro Bowler at some point, but wouldn't be shocked if he isn't a starter in 2023, either.

I agree. That's why the timing on this injury sucks so much.