I couldn't be more disappointed in the Jones injury. The biggest story going into this week should have been Jones hasn't turned the ball over in three consecutive games. That was a monumental change in the whole team dynamic that I think hasn't been talked about enough.
Did anyone else feel like Jones really started to come into his own these last few weeks in a way that says, this guy might be the franchise guy? Or am I crazy?
To me the turnovers and losses were major issues, but he really turned it around in an unprecedented way these last few weeks...
I think my biggest concern with Jones is that it's now just accepted that he needs to be a running (not just mobile) quarterback in order to be most effective, and yet we're all sitting here waiting for the injury report update to see if we can cling to our sad division lead.
It's debatable that you can have a good running quarterback with longevity in the NFL. I would argue that even if that were the case, Jones' frame isn't really meant for that regardless of what his straight line speed is. With few exceptions, the Super Bowl trophy is hoisted up by quarterbacks that can win with their brains and arms. Even when Eli was struggling early in his career, he always seemed to find the correct guy to throw to. He had accuracy issues, but he was finding the open man. I would be a lot more optimistic about Jones if he was better at that part of the game.
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I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now.
Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert.
Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.
You cherry picked some guys. What about Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, Haskins, and even Mayfield? This post is so misleading, making it sound like Jones is worse than every QB taken high in recent memory. He's somewhere in the middle.
So your standard for Jones is the failures? We're drafted him sixth overall to simply be better than a failure? Do I have that right?
I think my biggest concern with Jones is that it's now just accepted that he needs to be a running (not just mobile) quarterback in order to be most effective, and yet we're all sitting here waiting for the injury report update to see if we can cling to our sad division lead.
It's debatable that you can have a good running quarterback with longevity in the NFL. I would argue that even if that were the case, Jones' frame isn't really meant for that regardless of what his straight line speed is. With few exceptions, the Super Bowl trophy is hoisted up by quarterbacks that can win with their brains and arms. Even when Eli was struggling early in his career, he always seemed to find the correct guy to throw to. He had accuracy issues, but he was finding the open man. I would be a lot more optimistic about Jones if he was better at that part of the game.
The YPA is due to a low attempt of deep balls, but there are stats that confirm he's good at them. So this has more to do with O-line and offense than his problem. His numbers ARE underwhelming, I agree. However, I do think that he's had a few games where he could have better numbers than he did, I don't think they're representative of what he is. He took a step back overall no doubt, but I feel like everyone seems to ignore his rookie season. Why isn't it possible that he returns to that but maybe fewer fumbles since he's improved there this year? He's a second year QB, he's not a 5 year vet.
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In comment 15063517 Go Terps said:
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I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now.
Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert.
Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.
You cherry picked some guys. What about Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, Haskins, and even Mayfield? This post is so misleading, making it sound like Jones is worse than every QB taken high in recent memory. He's somewhere in the middle.
So your standard for Jones is the failures? We're drafted him sixth overall to simply be better than a failure? Do I have that right?
My standard shouldn't be failures but expecting an elite QB shouldn't be the standard either. One's low expectations and one's unrealistic. Also, I'm just calling you out on how you made it sound like all of high pick QBs are outperforming him. It was misleading.
Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert.
Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.
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I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now.
Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert.
Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.
What will you do with yourself when the Giants are a winning football team? Time is running out for you!
When is this going to happen?
But he's in his 3rd season and regressed in his second season just like Jones. If Jones doesn't improve from a guy that has 8 TDs and 9 INTs through 11 games yes he would be a failed pick. But it's his second season. And we saw much better production last season and many of his haters (although apparently not you) are ignoring last season. I was too when he was blowing chunks early on but he seems to have bounced back nicely recently so I have hope.
Jones just hasn’t established he can both 1) move the team consistently and score touchdowns AND 2) not turn the ball over at a prohibitive rate.
He had a clean game against Philly and a clean game against Cincy, but didn’t he put the ball on ground twice against Washington? I don’t think that’s an unprecedented turnaround.
When is this going to happen?
It's happening!!! - ( New Window )
Jones just hasn’t established he can both 1) move the team consistently and score touchdowns AND 2) not turn the ball over at a prohibitive rate.
He had a clean game against Philly and a clean game against Cincy, but didn’t he put the ball on ground twice against Washington? I don’t think that’s an unprecedented turnaround.
He didn't lose either fumble vs. Washington. He's clearly improved though. It's not just being cleaner he's been making good throws. I know it's just Cincinnati but he could have easily had 2 TDs in a little over half a game against Cinci if Engram scored and Slayton didn't drop the ball.
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In comment 15063531 BestFeature said:
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In comment 15063517 Go Terps said:
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I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now.
Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by Herbert.
Jones was drafted to be an elite player. He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.
You cherry picked some guys. What about Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, Haskins, and even Mayfield? This post is so misleading, making it sound like Jones is worse than every QB taken high in recent memory. He's somewhere in the middle.
So your standard for Jones is the failures? We're drafted him sixth overall to simply be better than a failure? Do I have that right?
My standard shouldn't be failures but expecting an elite QB shouldn't be the standard either. One's low expectations and one's unrealistic. Also, I'm just calling you out on how you made it sound like all of high pick QBs are outperforming him. It was misleading.
The question we need answered with regards to Jones is this: should he be in consideration for a second contract? Based on guys like Carr and Wentz, that might look like 4-5 years around $30M a year. Is Jones worth that right now? Does he look like he'll be worth that in a year or two?
That's the question to ask because if the answer is no, then we should be open to drafting his replacement if the opportunity arises. I'll give you the perfect example...Justin Herbert. At the time, I wouldn't have drafted him to replace Jones. I watched a lot of him at Oregon and didn't see what he has become in the NFL. With the gift of hindsight would I go back and draft him instead of Andrew Thomas? Abso-fucking-lutely.
That's the head space the Giants need to be in starting this winter. If they aren't ready to commit to Jones in the long term they need to at least be prepared if the opportunity to jump if the opportunity to draft a talented kid arises. I'm not saying get rid of Jones; I'm just saying his presence can't be what keeps you from taking a shot at someone else if a good opportunity arises (like Herbert was this past spring).
The cost of a top QB contract is so high in this league that it has divided the league into two classes: those with the few elite QBs (KC, SEA, GB, HOU, maybe BAL) and those that should never pass on an opportunity to draft a talented QB (everybody else).
Right now the answer to that question above is that Jones is not worth 5 years at $30M per. It's on Jones to change that answer from "no" to "yes". Until he does, the Giants are better off staying in rookie contracts at QB.
I disagree big time there. You think a rookie QB can come in here and total 250-300 total yards every week and throw with the accuracy Jones has displayed virtually all year long?
Jones has been a good QB the last 3 weeks. Make no mistake. And this coming from someone who killed him up until 3 weeks ago. I am not shy about Jones to task but he's been good lately. He was well on his way to 300 + passing yards on Sunday.
You're trying to reinvent the wheel. NFL teams don't operate like that in regards to QB. Just because it's a passing league now doesn't mean good QBs grow on trees. And in this offense under Judge? I don't think this is an easy offense to master.
We now have what looks to be a young, offensive line that can hold blocks. Now in this draft we need to get a big, physical WR that can go up and get the 50/50 balls, and gets consistent separation. If we can find a true TE while we're at it, all the better.
It's a symbiotic relationship. As the team improves, Jones will improve, and the points/passing TD's will come. It's not like he doesn't have the ability to put it on a rope and dime like he did to Golden Tate in the 4th QTR against Tampa with the game on the line. There was nothing lolipop about that throw. Link - ( New Window )
In this case Britt, I couldn't agree more.
The OL has a symbiotic relationship with both QB play, and RB play. Improve the OL and you improve both of the others as well. Been saying this for years.
And I agree the line was atrocious. They have improved to middle of the pack. And that is huge.
Why it took Gettleman 3 years before making a significant investment in the OL I will never know. I guess it wasn't like he needed to replace 100% of the OL when he came in... Oh wait...
I can see it now, Jones kicks ass in 2021, we win 11 games, Jones throws for 4000 yards, 28 TDs and rushes for another 4-5 and 400 yards and ok guys, time to draft a QB within the first 2 rounds because we want to get cheap at the position.
That kind of move would go over like a fart in church. The team would likely revolt. The fans definitely would. And you'd be phasing the QB you spent years developing out the door. You'd be fired the second that new QB shit his pants.
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Unless Jones drastically improves the Giants should stay in rookie contracts at QB, because as we've seen above his production is very easily replaced by kids coming out of college - he hasn't established a difficult standard to attain.
I disagree big time there. You think a rookie QB can come in here and total 250-300 total yards every week and throw with the accuracy Jones has displayed virtually all year long?
Jones has been a good QB the last 3 weeks. Make no mistake. And this coming from someone who killed him up until 3 weeks ago. I am not shy about Jones to task but he's been good lately. He was well on his way to 300 + passing yards on Sunday.
You're trying to reinvent the wheel. NFL teams don't operate like that in regards to QB. Just because it's a passing league now doesn't mean good QBs grow on trees. And in this offense under Judge? I don't think this is an easy offense to master.
300 passing yards isn't a big deal in today's game. It feels like it is because the QB play here has been poor for a while, but it isn't.
Good QBs may not grow on trees; but QBs that play at Jones's current level do grow on trees:
23 games
7-16
6.5 YPA
32/21
Good rushing, but lots of fumbles too
His resume to this point is pretty poor. No way around it.
I can see it now, Jones kicks ass in 2021, we win 11 games, Jones throws for 4000 yards, 28 TDs and rushes for another 4-5 and 400 yards and ok guys, time to draft a QB within the first 2 rounds because we want to get cheap at the position.
That kind of move would go over like a fart in church. The team would likely revolt. The fans definitely would. And you'd be phasing the QB you spent years developing out the door. You'd be fired the second that new QB shit his pants.
These wet dreams about the Giants turning it around and having a huge successful season never seem to actually play out.
In this current three game winning streak, we've played WFT, Philly, and Cincy. All subpar teams. I TD pass.
But when we've played quality teams like Tampa, Rams, Pittsburgh, and San Fran, he's been pretty putrid.
91/150 (60%), 5.98 YPA, 4 TDs/6 INTs.
So there really needs to be change in this area...and soon.
Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by I Herbert.
Jones was drafted to be an elite player. Ok He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.
No offense, but that’s just fucking ridiculous. If that’s the bar, then the Giants don’t win either of their previous two Super Bowls because Eli Manning (FIRST OVERALL PICK) sure as heck wasn’t elite early in his career or remotely as good as Big Ben through 2005. He was never as good as Brady, Favre, or Rodgers. He didn’t need to be because none of that shit is important.
You mentioned Josh Allen. Compare his numbers in his first 23 starts with Jones... there’s not a whole lot of difference outside of TD runs, which were a result of the Bills’ offense. And can we please stop with the YPA nonsense. It has zero predictive value when it comes to young QBs.
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improve. That goes for Jones and the whole team. You are seeing it with your own eyes right now.
We now have what looks to be a young, offensive line that can hold blocks. Now in this draft we need to get a big, physical WR that can go up and get the 50/50 balls, and gets consistent separation. If we can find a true TE while we're at it, all the better.
It's a symbiotic relationship. As the team improves, Jones will improve, and the points/passing TD's will come. It's not like he doesn't have the ability to put it on a rope and dime like he did to Golden Tate in the 4th QTR against Tampa with the game on the line. There was nothing lolipop about that throw. Link - ( New Window )
In this case Britt, I couldn't agree more.
The OL has a symbiotic relationship with both QB play, and RB play. Improve the OL and you improve both of the others as well. Been saying this for years.
And I agree the line was atrocious. They have improved to middle of the pack. And that is huge.
Why it took Gettleman 3 years before making a significant investment in the OL I will never know. I guess it wasn't like he needed to replace 100% of the OL when he came in... Oh wait...
He had replaced 100% of the O-line by the halfway point of the first season. Are you implying he should have just done what he did this draft as if it’s easy to hit on three starting offensive linemen as if it’s easy to replace five players with 100% accuracy? Because damn, we should have done that in 2012.
The ball fell out of his hands and onto the ground. I think that's kinda the problem, not whether someone was there to pick it up.
And I totally get there have been lost opportunities on the receiving end of throws -- I don't fault Jones for that. But to declare he's turning the corner, I'd like to see on average another TD a game, literally.
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I expect Jones to be as good as recent highly drafted quarterbacks. Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen... Those guys are young and playing very well. That was my expectation last year, and it's my expectation now.
Jones isn't in their universe. He's also been surpassed by I Herbert.
Jones was drafted to be an elite player. Ok He's miles from it. He has to get better quickly.
No offense, but that’s just fucking ridiculous. If that’s the bar, then the Giants don’t win either of their previous two Super Bowls because Eli Manning (FIRST OVERALL PICK) sure as heck wasn’t elite early in his career or remotely as good as Big Ben through 2005. He was never as good as Brady, Favre, or Rodgers. He didn’t need to be because none of that shit is important.
You mentioned Josh Allen. Compare his numbers in his first 23 starts with Jones... there’s not a whole lot of difference outside of TD runs, which were a result of the Bills’ offense. And can we please stop with the YPA nonsense. It has zero predictive value when it comes to young QBs.
Eli was NEVER elite. Closest he came was 2011 but even then his stats weren't near top 5. Though in context he was better than those numbers but I'd still say he wasn't.
And that's not even including being the best QB in the playoffs.
And that's not even including being the best QB in the playoffs.
Even then throughout his career he wasn't an elite QB. So hoping Jones is elite is a stretch. I hope so too and think it's possible, but that's an unfair expectation.
Jones is playing like a young quarterback, with mediocre skill players, and an emerging but still pretty shitty pass protecting line.
That’s why the notion of him completing an unprecedented turning of the corner is fucking hilarious.
Jones is playing like a young quarterback, with mediocre skill players, and an emerging but still pretty shitty pass protecting line.
That’s why the notion of him completing an unprecedented turning of the corner is fucking hilarious.
That’s what most of us have been saying for weeks/months.
Josh Allen has made a huge leap as a passer in his third year. He got by in years 1 and 2 based on his running ability - and he was more productive in that area than Jones has been. I agree with you...Jones's first two years are kind of comparable to Allen's first two. Allen was a poor passer who made a rare leap...is Jones going to do the same?
As for YPA...I'm not trying to predict anything with that stat. I'm trying to assess the quality of Jones's performance.
He's a guy with a 6.5 YPA when the league average is 7.3, and the elite passers are over 8. That's what Jones is.
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You mentioned Josh Allen. Compare his numbers in his first 23 starts with Jones... there’s not a whole lot of difference outside of TD runs, which were a result of the Bills’ offense. And can we please stop with the YPA nonsense. It has zero predictive value when it comes to young QBs.
Josh Allen has made a huge leap as a passer in his third year. He got by in years 1 and 2 based on his running ability - and he was more productive in that area than Jones has been. I agree with you...Jones's first two years are kind of comparable to Allen's first two. Allen was a poor passer who made a rare leap...is Jones going to do the same?
As for YPA...I'm not trying to predict anything with that stat. I'm trying to assess the quality of Jones's performance.
He's a guy with a 6.5 YPA when the league average is 7.3, and the elite passers are over 8. That's what Jones is.
nope.. you're wrong. Jones is suddenly a perennial top-10 QB because he had a good game against the Bengals. I'm kidding of course. You are 100% correct. Jones' overall stats are abysmal. Eventually he will have to put up elite stats to be considered elite. What a concept.
I raised this point because everyone basically plays good/great versus subpar teams. BFD.
Yet we applaud Jones for a three game stretch against subpar teams where he's produced a total of one TD pass. Read this slowly - one TD pass. And somehow this is some strong indication that Jones has turned this all important "corner". Unbelievable.
Look, if we are subtly saying that Jones just needs to meet game manager/game manager plus to confirm his high draft slot, then I have sorely misjudged where a fan's expectations should be for a QB chosen with the 6th pick.
This is true. But if you don't have an elite guy on a massive contract, you can skin the cat the other way by keeping the position cheap. Where you get in to trouble is paying non-elite guys like they're elite.
Take this season as an example. If Jones is getting paid Wentz money are we as likely to sign Martinez, Bradberry, and Ryan? Extrapolate that question over four or five years and you begin to see the impact of overpaying a QB.
Make Jones earn it. If he does (like Mahomes and Watson clearly have in recent years), then great...pay him. If not, move on and continue to use the cap to build up the rest of the roster. That's how you stay fluid and adaptable year to year.
Once you pay a Wentz, Stafford, Cousins, Garoppolo, etc...you are bound to that guy. Every decision has to be made around him, and if he doesn't work out...
It is demonstrably easier to win with an elite QB than with a non-elite QB. Look who wins championships, mostly it is elite QBs. Would you rather be in the category of 8 teams with elite QBs who challenge every single year or would you rather be a team in a group of 26 teams and maybe one or two of you gets a trophy every ten years.
Seeking truth and speaking truth is not rooting for the Giants to suck.
Here's my advice for you - get your expectations up. This is the 6th pick in the draft with almost a full year under his belt from his rookie season.
Not a fourth round, project draft choice...
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with how angry they get that people are finding positives in his game. You guys aren't Giants fans you're fans of your own opinions.
Here's my advice for you - get your expectations up. This is the 6th pick in the draft with almost a full year under his belt from his rookie season.
Not a fourth round, project draft choice...
QBs are not guaranteed to be elite at any pick. He's neither great, no terrible, which is what you get at #6 quite often. As such for a second year player he's not far from my expectations. Maybe in a year or 2 it won't cut it. It wasn't cutting it earlier in the season but he's been trending in the right direction.
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It is demonstrably easier to win with an elite QB than with a non-elite QB. Look who wins championships, mostly it is elite QBs. Would you rather be in the category of 8 teams with elite QBs who challenge every single year or would you rather be a team in a group of 26 teams and maybe one or two of you gets a trophy every ten years.
This is a misleading statement because most of those championships over the past 20 years were won by QB’s of a soon to be bygone era. All those dudes are on the way out. Who’s to say there will be another crop like them? I see Mahoney has a shot at it, but even he was a few playcalls of Kyle Shanahan going in a shell of being an also ran. Not to mention, of the past 20 years 12 superbowls were won by 4 guys. Everybody else got 1 each. Kind of skews the stat a little considering there aren’t many 2 or more time Super Bowl winning qbs in NFL history.
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Zeke — I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
Jones is playing like a young quarterback, with mediocre skill players, and an emerging but still pretty shitty pass protecting line.
That’s why the notion of him completing an unprecedented turning of the corner is fucking hilarious.
That’s what most of us have been saying for weeks/months.
That’s what most of are saying today.
I am a Giant fan, and I want them to start winning. If the players they currently have prevent them from winning I am not going to wish those players to become something they aren't.
Being a fan of the team isn't going to impact how I view their performance. I want Jones to kick ass and I root for him on Sunday...but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.
There are two worlds when it comes to the Giants: what we want, and what is. It's important to keep those two worlds separate.