I posted a comment in another thread yesterday about how polarizing Gettleman has been here. I get the sense that the anti-Gettleman crowd has their heels dug in so much that nothing could change their opinions of him.
For full disclosure, I wanted Gettleman to be let go after the 2019 season. But, I have to be fair that I like what is developing with this team.
Andrew Thomas has improved at left tackle over the last few weeks after a slow start. Both Shane Lemieux & Matt Peart have played well. As Baldy said, the Giants have a functioning OL which include 3 rookies — that is VERY encouraging.
His 2020 FA class has been his best here by far.
Ultimately, Gettleman will be tied to Jones. The jury is still out here, and I admit I’ve been very critical of Jones. However, since the second WAS game he has played much better.
I get how moving on from Eli was tough. Admittedly, I did not want to see Eli wearing a goofy Jacksonville Jaguar helmet to finish his career. Could the Giants have managed their resources better in 18/19? Absolutely. But, let’s not pretend it’s easy to move on from franchise legends. Eli won 2x SB MVP’s with this franchise, an extremely rare accomplishment. So, I get that it’s tough to move on, and pegging that ALL on Gettleman may not be fair. This led to the Saquon pick as well which is hotly debated.
So, I guess it depends if you are willing to look past the 2018 offseason. If the rebuild started *after* Eli left the team, it doesn’t look so bad. I see a direction and plan.
Lastly, Judge plays a factor here. How much influence did he have in the 2020 offseason? What is his relationship with Gettleman?
Based on what they say, Judge & Gettleman appear to have the same team building philosophy. If DG isn’t retained, it wouldn’t make sense to bring in a GM with no prior ties to the program Judge is trying to build. If it isn’t DG, the next GM should have worked with Judge prior or at minimum be familiar with the NE program. Anything otherwise would disrupt what is being built here imo.
As for the 4-7 record, it isn’t good enough. The next 5 games are still crucial. But, this OL has held up well against a strong WAS front and that matters going forward in this division.
In short, has your opinion on DG changed at all?
The team is 4-7. As bad as the Bengals are without Burrow, they were still 1st and 10 at midfield with around a minute left and a FG would have won the game. This is still very much a bottom tiered roster that needs another draft inside the top 10 more than a home playoff loss on WildCard Weekend.
We have competed well with some of the better NFC teams but have only beaten bad teams.
With three straight wins and the offensive line on a roll I was REALLY looking forward to us taking this momentum for a spin against Seattle.
Certainly, the offensive line can still be evaluated but I am sure the scheme/play-calling will change to suit the QB and so evaluating the development of others against good competition becomes more difficult.
I am more impressed by what DG did in free agency this year than the draft. It is too early to conclude anything on a draft class less than a season into their careers. I think much of the line improvement has been due to the coaches than the GM. They made a bad line a serviceable line.
However, the overall talent on this team isn’t much better than when he got here. EE is the only playmaker this offense has and he was here before DG. The second is Shepard who was also not a DG pick. Barkley has all world talent, but so far his NFL impact has been minimal. I’m not blaming him for Barkley’s injuries, but he took him #2 and has to live with the results, good or bad.
Would I take Jones at #6 again? Probably not. Would I sign Tate to a long term deal and not draft a WR in a very deep WR draft? Probably not.
For me DG is a mixed bag. Bad in 2018 and 2019, good in 2020. The question isn’t whether or not he has done enough to keep his job, the question is if there is anyone better available we should be looking at.
I have always said his legacy is tied to Jones who I would say is still undecided.
Now, i do like what he has done to the trenches.....love the current batch of FAs.
The team arrow is finally pointing up.
But they are still short on talent especially at edge, wr and corner. I will give him a little slack on corner as who expected Bakers mess and Beal pandemic.
I don't get the constant hate for Gettleman. I am a big fan of Judge. I like Jones and think he can be a franchise QB, health permitting. He has rebuilt the offensive line to where it looks to be solid. The defense has changed from a complete joke to a borderline top-10 unit. And he is two years into what was a major rebuild.
I wasn’t happy with the 2018 and the 2019 Giants seasons but was willing to see how the Beckham trade and the drafting of Jones pans out since both were huge defining moments for DG.
Fast forward one year, and now I am beginning to see both the Beckham trade and drafting of Jones is working to our good. Watching Jones mature, which seems to be coinciding with good OL play, is most appealing.
If any doubt, what DG has done in 2020 is nothing short of a miracle. We now have a plan, a coach, other coaches, the best draft ever, the best possible free agents picked up, and we are now super competitive. Oh yeah, we also beat the friggin Eagles....finally!
To not want to build on this is just stupid. I’m sure Judge works well with DG...so why would anyone want to tamper with this? Like I previously said, In my opinion, guys who still harbor resentment toward DG are affected by their emotions (over Eli perhaps) and have flushed their common sense and football acumen down the toilet.
LET DG REIGN!
PS. I don’t even need to see how the final 5 weeks play out. I believe we will still be competitive, win or lose, because i know these young players will just get better with practice and good coaching. Anyone with reasonable intelligence can see we now have enough good players to win big football games. Nothing but upward...
It was the hiring of Pat Shurmur. It was a terrible, uninspiring hire from the time that decision was made and those subsequent 2 years we were standing still as a franchise.
All GMs hit and miss on players. He missed on a bunch of free agents as he began turning this roster over but pretty much all of them except Solder were of very little consequence. I don't fault him personally for the Beckham deal as I believe there was ownership involvement there. Gettleman also did really well in shipping him out.
So far he appears to have done well at QB. And it's time to call the Leonard Williams trade a win.
Going back to my original point though, it's amazing what having the right coach can do for an organization. On his second try it appears he got his HC.
What's the endgame with Gettleman, anyway? He's almost 70 years old and recently had cancer - how long do you think he's going to be able to do the job even if he wants to? It's not as if he's done such a smashing job that you desperately want him to stay on as long as possible. Likely going to be replacing him within the next couple of years regardless, so what's the point of waiting?
I've thought all along it wasn't realistic to rebuild a team with such a horrible roster in less than 3 years. And sometimes you have to really tear it apart before you rebuild a championship team.
I don't blame him for trying to compete while starting the rebuild in '17 (Solder, et al).
No GM gets every move right, but Gettleman has gotten a lot more right than wrong.
3 quality starting OL in one draft?! His predecessor couldn't get 1 in 3 drafts! And how many teams have spent years looking for a franchise QB, a stud CB? Etc. etc.
I'm glad some people are starting to give DG some credit.
The run blocking is progressing nicely, but the pass protection continues to be atrocious. It’s no surprise, as most coaches say run blocking comes along more quickly.
In terms of who gets credit, who knows. Something very different happened with the young players the moment Judge walked in the door. He’s obviously a quality coach. I suspect that quality extends to the personnel side of things as well.
To me it’s all about batting average over the medium term for the GM. The downside of the new line is you have Solder’s contract, that Hernandez has been effectively benched, and Zeitler is both really expensive and pretty damn inconsistent.
Darryl Williams in the 4th, Norwell as UDFA, Trai Turner in the 3rd.
He looks to be doing well with the Giants in that respect as well. Gates as a UDFA, Peart in the 3rd, Lemieux in the 5th. (You can also include Thomas with the 1 and Hernandez with the 2 if you want to include higher picks).
I've currently moved out of the "wanting him gone" camp to the "won't complain if he is retained" side.
But if we lose out and finish with 4 wins, I'll probably switch back
Yes we are 4-7 but anyone can see we are improving and could frankly have a better record. I don't agree with the "we are 4-7 he stinks" line, teams have to improve on the field before its reflected int their records. Lets see next season when our young guys have another year, Saquons back, and Judge and the staff have a real off season.
He was the right guy to lead the Giants out of the Eli era and into the next one.
Now we need a guy that knows how to get the Giants to the next level.
It's a great team to inherit moving forward so long as they work well with Judge.
I also said his moves have generally, on paper, been good. They've just not worked out on the field due to a variety of reasons. He certainly hasn't ignored the OL, and this past draft he may have hit paydirt. You need luck as well as skill to be successful GM (IMO).
Regardless of playoffs/division, if the team gets to 6/7 wins I think he has to stay, but I think an emphasis will be on Judge really having input into player personnel - as it looks like the guy can really coach.
If this guy can coach and be our guy for the next 10 years....I say give him a lot of say in picking players.
And I think DG really won't have an issue with that. DG doesn't come across as a "me" guy....he wants to win and is willing to be part of a team. He's an organizational guy first.
If DG retires and Abrams takes over is one thing.....but a brand new GM would be a mistake....unless hand picked by Judge...which is not the Giants way.
The revolving door of Coaches and GMs is not what this team needs
I thought that the 4 LBs late had Judge written all over it.
If DG retires and Abrams takes over is one thing.....but a brand new GM would be a mistake....unless hand picked by Judge...which is not the Giants way.
The revolving door of Coaches and GMs is not what this team needs
Agreed. I could see Bob Quinn making sense, NE background and was recommended to the Lions by Accorsi.
But, NFL GM’s don’t grow on trees. A lot of these new GM’s flame out pretty quickly.
If we replaced Gettleman at the same time we hired Judge, what would be the opinion of a new GM that found
- Martinez, Bradberry and Ryan in free agency at relatively (comparable) cheap prices.
- Drafted Thomas, Peart and Lemieux to redo the OL and Holmes (can't grade Mckinney yet).
- Traded for Yiadom.
I'm asking because not getting rid of him last year is similar to sunken cost. You can't change it. The Giants right or wrong decided to give him another year. I'd consider last offseason a home run.
Is it Judge's influence?
Is it him getting rid of some of the older scouts or revising grading criteria?
Is it complete luck?
Bottom line is that the current combination is yielding much better results than Gettleman/Shurmur or Reese/McAdoo or Reese/Coughlin (later version).
Taken in that vacuum, does this change
What's the endgame with Gettleman, anyway? He's almost 70 years old and recently had cancer - how long do you think he's going to be able to do the job even if he wants to? It's not as if he's done such a smashing job that you desperately want him to stay on as long as possible. Likely going to be replacing him within the next couple of years regardless, so what's the point of waiting?
Tunnel vision Greg. You need to broaden your thinking here....
Look at the improvement from last year and look at how young we now are and how much the roster and coaches have changed....ALL FOR THE GOOD!
Get out of your “simple” but we still are just 4- 7 mindset. See the big picture brother.
I keep remembering the little run the Giants had in 2018 to climb to 5-8 and how obnoxious some fans got about it. In retrospect who you play and when is quite important when judging your future.
We don't have to look back much further than Hernandez to see a guy with promise and excellent physical skills, who the league figured out pretty quickly as well.
These coming weeks are telling. If the Giants get the doors blown off the next 4 weeks against average to above average teams, let's revisit this conversation.
The roster he took over was a mess.
I keep remembering the little run the Giants had in 2018 to climb to 5-8 and how obnoxious some fans got about it. In retrospect who you play and when is quite important when judging your future.
We don't have to look back much further than Hernandez to see a guy with promise and excellent physical skills, who the league figured out pretty quickly as well.
These coming weeks are telling. If the Giants get the doors blown off the next 4 weeks against average to above average teams, let's revisit this conversation.
I am not sure I see chest thumping. If there is I certainly find it silly, because I find chest thumping silly anytime it is used. I don't find it useful one bit, there are better ways to communicate that one may have had insight other missed.
I see a lot of fans use certainties regarding their views when it's likely they are missing information and or not considering all of the reasonable possibilities. I think discussion is good, but discussion is quickly spoiled in my view when opinions are communicated as irrefutable whether I agree with that view or not.
The Giants cap was also not a mess or in bad shape when Gettleman started. He had the flexibility to spend a significant amount of money (notably Solder and extending Beckham), and also had the room to move and absorb the players under contract he didn't want.
Gettleman methodically remade the roster, and hopefully we will see the fruits of that labor turn into wins soon, but he had all of the financial, cap, and draft resources available to do so.
The germane comment I was referencing. I agree with your overall sentiment.
PS. I don’t even need to see how the final 5 weeks play out. I believe we will still be competitive, win or lose, because i know these young players will just get better with practice and good coaching. Anyone with reasonable intelligence can see we now have enough good players to win big football games. Nothing but upward...
I would agree that the cap situation wasn't in complete disarray - but he did have to maneuver his way around an aging QB who's contract was a complete anchor.
I still think he was tasked with trying to win with Eli which, in my opinion, explains the SHurmer hire and SOlder signing...but there no way that situation he took over was a way less desirable spot that the one he's leaving (should he not be there next season).
Change is the enemy of NFL success; show me a franchise that's always changing coaches and GMs and I'll show you a losing franchise. I wouldn't give Gettleman an extension but I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do in a buyers' free agency market next year.
I still think he was tasked with trying to win with Eli which, in my opinion, explains the SHurmer hire and SOlder signing...but there no way that situation he took over was a way less desirable spot that the one he's leaving (should he not be there next season).
I don't disagree the team is on an upswing, and it was on a downswing when he started.
I don't give Gettleman any credit or sympathy as it relates to Manning. He knew the situation when walked in the door and he either:
1) Agreed Manning was part of the solution as he explicitly said
or
2) Didn't have the guts or conviction to stand up to Mara
Gettleman perpetrated a lot of nonsense in 2018 and 2019. Doing better in 2020 and sucking the previous 2 years isn't mutually exclusive in my view.
A .500 record or better would help.
The fact that the Mara's finally got the HC right (thank you Bill Belichick) doesn't change anything with the GM or player procurement.
But I don't expect any changes with the GM or anyone else in that area. Joe Judge is just going to have to be good enough to build a championship team with the guys he's currently working with. I think he is.
BUT someone had to go through that transition - and in hindsight - it looks like DG was the guy to guide the team through that. I do give him credit for that.
Quote:
I am not sure I see chest thumping. If there is I certainly find it silly, because I find chest thumping silly anytime it is used. I don't find it useful one bit, there are better ways to communicate that one may have had insight other missed.
The germane comment I was referencing. I agree with your overall sentiment.
Quote:
LET DG REIGN!
PS. I don’t even need to see how the final 5 weeks play out. I believe we will still be competitive, win or lose, because i know these young players will just get better with practice and good coaching. Anyone with reasonable intelligence can see we now have enough good players to win big football games. Nothing but upward...
Gotcha 👍
Besides the obvious fact that the OL is still very much a work-in-process, doesn't it make sense to look at ALL of Gettleman's decisions for the past 3 years relative to addressing the offensive line if you are going to use it as the basis to rely on him going forward?
Or do you think an "OL-Lightbulb" just went off in his head this past spring?
13-35.
We could also be ascending and make the playoffs.
These games REALLY matter.
The Giants cap was also not a mess or in bad shape when Gettleman started. He had the flexibility to spend a significant amount of money (notably Solder and extending Beckham), and also had the room to move and absorb the players under contract he didn't want.
...
I agree with quote one about the situation he inherited and how he had the flexibility to make the moves he wanted. Which leads to the talent deprived section of the second quote. The members of that untalented roster brought back a lot of draft picks and players in trades. The rest of that quote is true in my opinion but a huge part of that was on the fact that we had Eli.
Besides the obvious fact that the OL is still very much a work-in-process, doesn't it make sense to look at ALL of Gettleman's decisions for the past 3 years relative to addressing the offensive line if you are going to use it as the basis to rely on him going forward?
Or do you think an "OL-Lightbulb" just went off in his head this past spring?
He signed one of the top FA OLs and spent a 2nd rounder on Hernandez in 2018, and also signed the OL from Jacksonville. The FA signings did not work out, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Gates was also brought in as an UDFA.
2019, he traded for Zeitler and signed Remmers as a stop gap.
2020, he signed Fleming and invested heavily in the draft in Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux.
I don't think they have more talent now than when he took over three years ago the entire roster is pretty much different.
There is no one on the team that is a true impact player, save maybe Bradberry? Barkley? is Leonard Williams a game changer?
I like Judge though seems like he could be a good one. Seems like he is doing more with less, but Time will tell.
I would Love to change my opinion on him, but if thye don't win 2 more games here in the next 5 weeks, it's another bad record and another top 6-10 pick. How much credit is a guy supposed to get who constantly finds the team picking top 10?
If you don't think that was DG's mandate then I don't know what to tell you. He tried to make some moves to facilitate that and most of them turned to shit.
He really needs to be judged since he has brought in DJ. If you look at his true rebuilding process and the hiring of the coach that he wanted, it's been remarkable.
But he is old and acts like a buffoon, so most fans hate him. Fine, he and Judge seem to have a very good relationship. That's all that really matters.
Go win some meaningful games in Dec and I'll be happy
The jury is still out on Jones, the Barkley pick was poor draft strategy, and let's give this OL time to be good over an extended period of time before we declare problem solved.
Joining others, we haven't beat a winning team this year, last year.
The last time we really beat a winning team was 2018 in week three when we beat 0-3 Houston at the time and later in the year beat Chicago with Chase McDaniels, who basically gave us the game.
As far as I'm concerned, this season is more a reflection of outstanding coaching than any of the groceries obtained by Gettleman...
Quote:
as the underlying rational for retaining Gettleman.
Besides the obvious fact that the OL is still very much a work-in-process, doesn't it make sense to look at ALL of Gettleman's decisions for the past 3 years relative to addressing the offensive line if you are going to use it as the basis to rely on him going forward?
Or do you think an "OL-Lightbulb" just went off in his head this past spring?
He signed one of the top FA OLs and spent a 2nd rounder on Hernandez in 2018, and also signed the OL from Jacksonville. The FA signings did not work out, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Gates was also brought in as an UDFA.
2019, he traded for Zeitler and signed Remmers as a stop gap.
2020, he signed Fleming and invested heavily in the draft in Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux.
?? Wasn't suggesting he ignored it, but that he completely struggled in improving it...hell, even stabilizing it.
It took a desperation OL strategy in the draft this year, and probably moreso better coaching, to finally get it to a functioning level. And this was arguably the weakest area of the team for a decade.
If you don't think that was DG's mandate then I don't know what to tell you. He tried to make some moves to facilitate that and most of them turned to shit.
He really needs to be judged since he has brought in DJ. If you look at his true rebuilding process and the hiring of the coach that he wanted, it's been remarkable.
Well I don't think that was his mandate. DG did his own assessment and thought he could retool it, but he wholly underestimated Eli and the rest of the roster.
And btw, even if it was his mandate, he still made moves that "turned to shit" in your words so that is completely on him. A so-called mandate doesn't preclude making sensible value-add transactions.
The jury is still out on Jones, the Barkley pick was poor draft strategy, and let's give this OL time to be good over an extended period of time before we declare problem solved.
Joining others, we haven't beat a winning team this year, last year.
The last time we really beat a winning team was 2018 in week three when we beat 0-3 Houston at the time and later in the year beat Chicago with Chase McDaniels, who basically gave us the game.
As far as I'm concerned, this season is more a reflection of outstanding coaching than any of the groceries obtained by Gettleman...
Agree. The coaching staff is getting way more out of this group than I think even the most optimistic fans expected.
The jury is still out on Jones, the Barkley pick was poor draft strategy, and let's give this OL time to be good over an extended period of time before we declare problem solved.
Joining others, we haven't beat a winning team this year, last year.
The last time we really beat a winning team was 2018 in week three when we beat 0-3 Houston at the time and later in the year beat Chicago with Chase McDaniels, who basically gave us the game.
As far as I'm concerned, this season is more a reflection of outstanding coaching than any of the groceries obtained by Gettleman...
I agree with this. Again, I still think the best thing for the franchise would be for DG to gracefully step down, call it for health reasons, and stay on as a consultant type guy.
Then get a guy that does get modern football.
I would love to believe that the Giants used DG as scapegoat to get past Eli, dump popular high priced vets (ie OBJ, JPP, Vernon, Jenkins, Collins, etc.), and get the franchise on the other side of an era of football that had been very successful.
A new aged GM that was in-tune with modern football that could usher in a new, successful era would not have made it through to the other side. Now that person has been given a great opportunity to bring about more winning, championship caliber football.
It was the hiring of Pat Shurmur. It was a terrible, uninspiring hire from the time that decision was made and those subsequent 2 years we were standing still as a franchise.
All GMs hit and miss on players. He missed on a bunch of free agents as he began turning this roster over but pretty much all of them except Solder were of very little consequence. I don't fault him personally for the Beckham deal as I believe there was ownership involvement there. Gettleman also did really well in shipping him out.
So far he appears to have done well at QB. And it's time to call the Leonard Williams trade a win.
Going back to my original point though, it's amazing what having the right coach can do for an organization. On his second try it appears he got his HC.
Totally disagree with this and heres why -Pat helped him evaluate Dan Jones. Pat knows QBs, dont under value his impact on it.
Darryl Williams in the 4th, Norwell as UDFA, Trai Turner in the 3rd.
He looks to be doing well with the Giants in that respect as well. Gates as a UDFA, Peart in the 3rd, Lemieux in the 5th. (You can also include Thomas with the 1 and Hernandez with the 2 if you want to include higher picks).
Exactly great pts
So now it's year three. The arrow appears pointed up on the OL, and the Defensive front seems settled. All of the other position groups need more talent.
There have been some bad setbacks and mistakes: hiring Shurmur; whiffing on 4 DBs with 7 draft picks in 2019; picking Barkley at 2 who has struggled with injuries and is still bad at blitz pickup.
I'm not sure Jones is the guy and Gettleman basically said he drafted him because Shurmur liked him best and he was Eli-like in demeanor. I get the sense Judge likes Jones a lot (maybe its just coachspeak) and that they'll stick with him through his rookie deal and continue to build the rest of the team. But he's going to miss time with injury again this year and he has 8 TDs on the year. Hard to feel confident about him at this point.
the talent on those teams were absolutely awful. It's amazing they won 1 game with the guys they were running out there.
That's what I realized.
The jury is still out on Jones, the Barkley pick was poor draft strategy, and let's give this OL time to be good over an extended period of time before we declare problem solved.
Joining others, we haven't beat a winning team this year, last year.
The last time we really beat a winning team was 2018 in week three when we beat 0-3 Houston at the time and later in the year beat Chicago with Chase McDaniels, who basically gave us the game.
As far as I'm concerned, this season is more a reflection of outstanding coaching than any of the groceries obtained by Gettleman...
The other side of this shouldn't be acting like all is golden right now though.
We could easily, EASILY, go 0-5 and end up 4-12.
The vast majority of players were his choice (many via high picks or money), the incumbent players he kept are pretty decent, and it’s his second hand-picked staff.
At some point the goal isn’t which way the needle is pointing. A good measure would be to not lose 10+ games one of these years.
The vast majority of players were his choice (many via high picks or money), the incumbent players he kept are pretty decent, and it’s his second hand-picked staff.
At some point the goal isn’t which way the needle is pointing. A good measure would be to not lose 10+ games one of these years.
This. If the goal is to compete with WFT, then I guess Gettleman works. If the goal is to compete with KC, what reason do we have to believe Gettleman is the guy to do that?
I’d much rather a younger voice whose worked in NE (Caserio, Ossenfort, Quinn or Dimitroff) - all are familiar with the NE program and team building philosophy.
I’d much rather a younger voice whose worked in NE (Caserio, Ossenfort, Quinn or Dimitroff) - all are familiar with the NE program and team building philosophy.
I agree completely. I'd interview all three guys.
Bradberry, Martinez, maybe Sheppard and Peppers? We’ve seen free agent signings flame out after a year, so it’s a little early to chest thump about the 2020 signings.
The question has to be do you have confidence in Gettleman to build this team into a consistent contender and one that has a one or two years they can compete for a Super Bowl? If not, what’s the point of keeping him?
However, I have always been a bit surprised that you were a part of the “Jones just isn’t the guy” narrative.
I do believe many guys in this camp were just so loyal to Eli they resented Jones and it skewed their perspective of him.
I know you were ready to move on from Eli. Just curious what was the root of your impatience with Jones.
From my corner I saw a kid with great athletic ability who made mistakes common to young quarterbacks. He took a step backwards this season, but with the change in coaching staff and covid, I wasn’t surprised.
I ve been fan of the move since they drafted him, he saved the season for me last year as it was difficult to be excited about a bad team with a old quarterback.
I ve totally enjoyed this season as well, even at 0-5, I felt they were moving in the right direction.
Anyway, nice post here. My opinion, don’t think it matters what we think, DG is coming back if he wants, I m good with that.
I’d much rather a younger voice whose worked in NE (Caserio, Ossenfort, Quinn or Dimitroff) - all are familiar with the NE program and team building philosophy.
Shanahan had no relationship with Lynch. That's worked.
I do believe many guys in this camp were just so loyal to Eli they resented Jones and it skewed their perspective of him.
I know you were ready to move on from Eli. Just curious what was the root of your impatience with Jones.
From my corner I saw a kid with great athletic ability who made mistakes common to young quarterbacks. He took a step backwards this season, but with the change in coaching staff and covid, I wasn’t surprised.
I’ve always appreciated your optimism. I was in the Darnold camp in 2018 which I believe you were as well. I felt it made sense to take advantage of draft position in 2018 to draft Darnold and pair him with Shurmur going forward. As it turns out, Darnold hasn’t proven to be the guy there, but his situation sucks. I still think he can play.
As for Jones, I agree with everything you said. The play that really ticked me off with Jones was the fumble which was returned for a TD against Dallas. The inability to protect the football in combination with lack of explosive plays was my frustration. That showed up again in the TB game.
I defended the Jones selection at #6, I think the media narrative pushing Haskins was unfair. There’s a lot about Jones I like:
-He’s tough
-From all accounts seems like an excellent captain and teammate
-He can extend plays with his feet
-He’s an excellent runner
-He throws an excellent ball
I also think the jury is still out though, as we’ve seen it is dangerous to hand out a $30M/year QB contract to a player who can’t overcome the roster deficiencies that contract would cause.
But, I’ve been very encouraged with Jones the last few weeks. The play I referenced above against Dallas could have happened in WAS a few weeks back, it would have led to a loss, but Jones held onto the ball. That was huge.
I got some criticism a few weeks ago by saying I’d take Jones over Garoppolo & Mayfield, I still stand by that opinion.
I like how things are coming together.
I dont think he did it by always having been good and suddenly it shows or plays out. I think he did it by listening to more and better inputs into FA and draft selections.
I think id point to the clean out of the scouting staff as an unseen important contribution...and I hope they replace the 1-2 most replaceable scouts every year.
To me, nothing he has done is headed (with the benefit of patience to assess actual performance instead of early hot takes) to GM malpractice ( I include Williams which has not played out with all the data you need to assess and Jones which has no yet played out with all the data you need to assess).
I personally do feel (couldnt call it thinking yet) that Barkley is the decision I question the most and would least want to see a risk adjusted same size re investment in his re signing.
I say all this in the context that conversions from franchise QB's are so often long, team draining, coach killing and fraught with mis-judgements of performance of the old and the new.
To me, the biggest Giant mistakes are 5-8 years ago...not starting to replace Eli and not getting several top flight external advisors on the OL. All of a sudden in 2020 we heard of fleshing out the coaching ranks for a troubled unit and using external "consultants" like DeGuglielmo? Wow what modern concepts.
I dont think he did it by always having been good and suddenly it shows or plays out. I think he did it by listening to more and better inputs into FA and draft selections.
I think id point to the clean out of the scouting staff as an unseen important contribution...and I hope they replace the 1-2 most replaceable scouts every year.
To me, nothing he has done is headed (with the benefit of patience to assess actual performance instead of early hot takes) to GM malpractice ( I include Williams which has not played out with all the data you need to assess and Jones which has no yet played out with all the data you need to assess).
I personally do feel (couldnt call it thinking yet) that Barkley is the decision I question the most and would least want to see a risk adjusted same size re investment in his re signing.
I say all this in the context that conversions from franchise QB's are so often long, team draining, coach killing and fraught with mis-judgements of performance of the old and the new.
To me, the biggest Giant mistakes are 5-8 years ago...not starting to replace Eli and not getting several top flight external advisors on the OL. All of a sudden in 2020 we heard of fleshing out the coaching ranks for a troubled unit and using external "consultants" like DeGuglielmo? Wow what modern concepts.
I think it boils down to congratulations on getting better at collaborating and congratulations on choosing better partners to collaborate with (including the behind the scenes changes you eluded to that have been ongoing since the Petit promotion).
We are now (hopefully) past the tipping point of enough of the organization functioning at high enough levels to see results in the finished product. Directly because of the incremental improvements in process/management over the past 3 years (especially the hiring of Judge which was a leap).
The Barkley decision just depends on alternatives. If we knew the "fair trade offer" they acknowledged passing up that could be a fair criticism. As could any alternative future use of cap allocation. I do believe they chose the right player while on the clock because if there was 1 player from that draft I could magically appear on the field against Seattle it would probably still be him. Jaire Alexander or Darius Leonard would probably be in that discussion too but they weren't anywhere in the discussion back then.
I would have been happier with an OL/DL/Edge investment and a RB or WR in the 2nd round Hernandez slot
Going back to Jones...if Judge is still here ( and I hope he will be) and Jones is his guy on the intangibles then that's a heavy thumb on the scale when it comes time for a contract renewal. Good working HC/OC tandems with QB's are worth some continuity and undoing them takes a lot of psychic drain when there might be so many other ways to improve
I don't get the constant hate for Gettleman. I am a big fan of Judge. I like Jones and think he can be a franchise QB, health permitting. He has rebuilt the offensive line to where it looks to be solid. The defense has changed from a complete joke to a borderline top-10 unit. And he is two years into what was a major rebuild.
I don't agree with the narrative that the rebuild didn't begin until 2019. They looked at the qb's in 2018 and didn't like them. Three years later I think they where right.
If you look at the numbers if they cut eli they would have had to get another qb to play. There would have been very little cap savings. They decided Eli would be the bridge qb.
From the time DG was hired to the first snap the next season he turned over 37 off 53 roster spots. Thats blowing up the roster. People here think because they didn't cut Eli and draft a qb they weren't rebuilding. It's simply not true. 37 of 53. Look at what they did. Not what they said.
I would have been happier with an OL/DL/Edge investment and a RB or WR in the 2nd round Hernandez slot
Going back to Jones...if Judge is still here ( and I hope he will be) and Jones is his guy on the intangibles then that's a heavy thumb on the scale when it comes time for a contract renewal. Good working HC/OC tandems with QB's are worth some continuity and undoing them takes a lot of psychic drain when there might be so many other ways to improve
Agree across the board. During the 2017 CFB season Bradley Chubb was the guy I was hoping we'd end up in draft position to get, though when we got all the way up to #2 Barkley did ascend beyond him for me because he just checked every box with a freakish skill set. He just seemed like an all time low risk selection and the thought of pairing another game breaker with OBJ just seemed like it could create something special even if RBs are generally somewhat fungible. Nelson was also a similarly low risk prospect and OL was certainly also an appealing area to upgrade but taking a guard at 2 just never seemed likely. Perhaps it was just blind optimism that another Snee could be found in round 2 and more McKenzie/O'hara's via FA.
Something akin to the Colts trade would have been the coup but everyone wants deals like that and few find them. They did say however they received 1 fair trade offer and if truth serum were administered I think they might admit that with hindsight they should have taken that offer since the needs on the team turned out to be so numerous.
Re: Jones and Judge I think they are adjoined in an interesting way. If Judge is the real deal as a head coach I've seen enough traits to think Jones will be the real deal as QB. Not saying he'd thrive in any situation but that he is one of the guys who has enough talent to thrive in the right situation. Put him on the Chiefs with Andy Reid and he would put up some very big numbers and win a lot of games.
So if Judge is the real deal = Jones will be the real deal, it's also going to be that much easier for Judge to be a successful head coach because he has a QB. I am extremely fascinated to see how he handles the offensive staff in the offseason, especially in light of the Columbo situation.
I'm thinking he is not an example of DG hitting the mark.
I expect a little more than pedestrian starter riding the pine from a high #2 pick.
I think the best that can be said of DG is that he's clawed his way out of not being the disaster he was on the brink of being.
The improvement in the OL and the defense has me at a point where I'm at least willing to be opened minded about another year. It's still too soon to really cut Gettleman any real slack though IMO. The team is 4-7 in this third year and he shouldn't benefit from how awful the NFC East is.
Let's see the OL, and the team, play well versus some real teams. Wins over CIN, PHI and WSH are a necessary step forward but we all hoped to be beyond this point by now. Finish the year 3-2 (which would require some wins versus real teams in addition to DAL) and I'd be able to be talked into another year of Gettleman.
^^ LOL @ won't ever be
If we win the division this year and then win the SB next year. This guy will still think DG is trash.
It is fair to dislike the guy for what he has done so far.. but if he turns it around and you still cannot give him credit for that.. then your opinion at that point is really worthless.
Not the poor roster quality or misfortune of the other 3 divisional foes in 2020.
Which has occurred moreso this season?
To me, the biggest Giant mistakes are 5-8 years ago...not starting to replace Eli
I think you lay that at the feet of ownership. The loyalty the team has to iconic players often times hurts the team.
They attempted to begin easing the fans into the idea of replacing Eli. Unfortunately they went about it in the worst way (Geno) and then blamed the coach.
Meanwhile, the fans lost their minds because of some meaningless streak and their love affair for Eli. It spooked Mara into holding onto Eli even longer because of what appeared to be the biggest fan revolt since the ticket burning in the 70s.
So yeah... the fans are partly to blame for the delay in replacing Eli. Franchises do get signals from their customers on what to do and weigh that as a "part" of their decision making process.
Ben McAdoo was spot on in wanting to draft Mahommes. Ownership and the fan base were not ready for that decision. Of course, we would have had to trade up into the top 10 to make that happen.
Ben McAdoo was spot on in wanting to draft Mahommes. Ownership and the fan base were not ready for that decision. Of course, we would have had to trade up into the top 10 to make that happen.
KC traded up (w/Buffalo) from behind us in the first round to grab Mahomes. We had the same draft capital to make that happen. It was a huge missed opportunity, especially if McAdoo was indeed pushing for it.
The greatest QB in my eyes was the brilliant Joe Montana. And despite numerous SBs under his belt at the time, his coach Bill Walsh traded for Steve Young. Walsh was always looking ahead to the future. Always thinking two-three years ahead.
So if the 9ers could do that to Joe Montana there shouldn’t have been a second of hesitation to add Mahomes with Eli here.
Now KC enjoys the spoils.,..
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Ben McAdoo was spot on in wanting to draft Mahommes. Ownership and the fan base were not ready for that decision. Of course, we would have had to trade up into the top 10 to make that happen.
Like I said.. we have to place a lot of the blame on the fans because in general they make emotional decisions and not strategic decisions when they speak about what needs to be done with the team.
The hardest decisions to make are the the most difficult ones.
I truly disliked Reese and thought he was a shitty GM. However, you have to recognize that sometimes decisions are made by others and for reasons that are never revealed.
Where I blamed Reese is in this area...
He know we had a QB who was a statue in the pocket. Plus, Eli started to lose his courage in the pocket. He would chuck & duck or hit the ground when it appeared he would get hit. The ONLY way Eli would be successful at that point was if we put a solid line in front of him so he could feel comfortable and get his confidence back. We actually made the line worse during that time.. somehow. As a result, we really were not truly committed to Eli and we were not rebuilding. We were nowhere..
Absolutely not. But that's where I was heading with my post above that DG shouldn't be measured on results of the other 3 poor divisional foes, only our results.
If you told this board in September that the NYG would have 4 or 5 wins does Gettleman need to go...90% will have said yes. Irrespective of DJ's progress, if any.
If you ask this same board in December whether the 5 win Giants that finish 1 game out of first place in the NFC East...I bet that 90% that wanted to dump DG drops well below 50%.
Objective thinking?
I think the collaborative effort is severely under-rated on BBI (at least the vocal portion). I've long espoused the notion that the Giants are a group dynamic with moving parts in the group. The notion that 'GM shops for groceries and coaches cook' is waaaay over simplified.
Those of us on the outside don't know the balance levels of the group. We don't know what level of input Chris Mara has, or had, or will have. Ditto John Mara, or the coaches, or the scouts. We don't know if DG was overbearing in the decisions, and is easing up, or vice versa. He may be running things exactly the same, but the past coaching regime let him down with their inputs.
The group dynamic of the past year seems to be working, but it remains to be seen if the same will be said of it down the road (how often have we touted any given year's acquisitions as it's happening, only to watch it fall apart with age?) or whether the trend continues.
The same can be said of DG's first 2 years.
Lack of success should not be confused with lack of effort.
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or lose out, does he still deserve another year?
Absolutely not. But that's where I was heading with my post above that DG shouldn't be measured on results of the other 3 poor divisional foes, only our results.
I couldn't agree more. The goal always, unequivocally should be building toward a championship.
And the measure should be, over a period of time, has the team made the requisite progress to that end.
One of the primary boxes to check on that journey -- from time-to-time does the team beat good teams. When the Giants start doing that, I'll get behind people keeping their jobs and believing things are going well.
The same can be said of DG's first 2 years.
Lack of success should not be confused with lack of effort.
Understood.. I am simply referring to effectively putting a solid OL in front of Eli. I was not suggesting that Reese did not "attempt" to patch the OL together.
By the way, I also am on the fence as to whether Reese's selections were poor or whether it was a coaching issue. I find it very hard to believe that virtually every OL move did not produce a player who could play. Even pulling names out of a hat would yield better results.
Example - clearly the FO was collaborating with James Bettcher because they signed so many of his former players. The process flaw in that case was hiring the wrong person (Bettcher), which begot signing the wrong players, but not necessarily because of any failure in the collaboration. Though it was certainly a failure in outcome.
As we are seeing this year, the outcome has changed not necessarily because there was more collaboration but because the right person was hired. Making Graham AHC/DC was highly risky. Similar to Bettcher he brought in a bunch of his former players. Martinez' profile wasn't even all that different from Alec Ogletrees when he was cast off by the Packers after a supposed drop in performance. They were the same age. That was probably the most controversial FA signing around in here March where many (myself included) seemed to prefer Schobert or Littleton. But Judge was right, Graham was the right guy for the job, and all have been rewarded.
So net-net we've had a lot of poison fruit the last few years but it may not be coming from a fully poisonous tree. It may have just been a few poisonous branches that had to be cut off.
One of the primary boxes to check on that journey -- from time-to-time does the team beat good teams. When the Giants start doing that, I'll get behind people keeping their jobs and believing things are going well.
This team absolutely is playing better vs those good teams. We could have beaten everyone other than San Fran this year. In prior seasons we likely would have been blown out.
Some people here are unwilling to see improvement unless it is a win.. like it is a black vs white thing (win or lose). Christian, it really means you are unwilling to see improvement or unable to see it. That is really for you to decide.
If the "improvement measuring stick" is just a "W", then you do not even have to watch the games. Just check the score afterwards and make your determination.
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One of the primary boxes to check on that journey -- from time-to-time does the team beat good teams. When the Giants start doing that, I'll get behind people keeping their jobs and believing things are going well.
This team absolutely is playing better vs those good teams. We could have beaten everyone other than San Fran this year. In prior seasons we likely would have been blown out.
Some people here are unwilling to see improvement unless it is a win.. like it is a black vs white thing (win or lose). Christian, it really means you are unwilling to see improvement or unable to see it. That is really for you to decide.
If the "improvement measuring stick" is just a "W", then you do not even have to watch the games. Just check the score afterwards and make your determination.
Well said. There's irony that the "no moral victories" crowd likes to also throw cold water on actual victories.
There is improvement, but mostly the roles just flipped. Shurmur's teams were marked by decent offenses with terrible defenses, now under Judge it's the opposite. Honestly, the biggest difference between 2018-19 and this year, to me, is the special teams. Went from a major weakness to a strength.
There is improvement, but mostly the roles just flipped. Shurmur's teams were marked by decent offenses with terrible defenses, now under Judge it's the opposite. Honestly, the biggest difference between 2018-19 and this year, to me, is the special teams. Went from a major weakness to a strength.
and part of that improvement was due to the kicker getting in trouble off the field.
There is improvement, but mostly the roles just flipped. Shurmur's teams were marked by decent offenses with terrible defenses, now under Judge it's the opposite. Honestly, the biggest difference between 2018-19 and this year, to me, is the special teams. Went from a major weakness to a strength.
We also had better wins under Shurmur than any we've had under Judge.
We beat the 11-5 Texans and 12-4 Bears in 2018. It's why having close games against TB doesn't really matter to me.
The Bradberry and Martinez signings were both strong moves, especially Bradberry. The 2019 Giants defense was probably the worst Giants defense I've seen from a pure talent perspective. To turn that team into an above average unit within a year is just impressive. Obviously a lot of that credit goes to Patrick Graham, who has been awesome. But Gettleman deserves credit for improving the talent level of the defense so quickly.
This is still a mediocre football team in a historically bad division. But the foundational pieces finally seem to be coming together. There is still a long way to go in the rebuild, but progress has been made and yea it improves how I view Gettleman.
The defense is "clearly" better. There are statistical measurements to support that. 10th in point allowed and 5th in run defense. And the pass defense is up to 19th.
The offense? Stinks. We just don't score enough. YTD, we've actually gone backwards from last year in PPG (21 to 19). And that's on Jones.
Like I mentioned on the "..turn the corner..." thread, I don't get this recent praise heaped on Jones during this win streak when he's thrown 1 TD pass. One.
Well said. It’s a process. And the process really started when Beckham was traded & Jones drafted.
I would agree that the cap situation wasn't in complete disarray - but he did have to maneuver his way around an aging QB who's contract was a complete anchor.
I still think he was tasked with trying to win with Eli which, in my opinion, explains the SHurmer hire and SOlder signing...but there no way that situation he took over was a way less desirable spot that the one he's leaving (should he not be there next season).
The team is in a better place now than when he took over, but I think Christian is right in applying some balance and avoiding the superlatives.
The cap situation that DG inherited was not great, but not poor. The roster was old, yes, and the salary structure was top-heavy. That tends to go hand-in-hand with your QB's salary, and we don't need to re-litigate the Eli effect on the cap (other than to note that if DG should get a pass for 2018 because of ownership's justifiable affinity for Eli, the same pass should be extended to Reese w/r/t the cap - those are two elements of the same situation, IMO).
However, let's not try to rewrite history and pretend that DG handled the cap deftly. He took a machete to the roster, not a scalpel, and he absorbed the most dead money in the league in doing so. That is the most painful way to reshape your salary cap while rebuilding your roster. There was very little ingenuity in his moves as they relate to the cap - he simply took his medicine. To his credit, he seems to have taken as much of it at the same time as was possible, so we have very few albatross cap liabilities remaining going forward (Solder is obviously the most noteworthy one at this point). But he didn't come up with any clever ways to handle it other than the regular way that every aging team does during a rebuild.
We are 4-7 in one of the worst divisions in the history of the NFL with our wins being against the worst teams in the league playing back up QBs. That context matters. I can't say we are playing better yet.
We could so easily end up 4-12 or 5-11 with those wins coming against complete shit teams.
We also could win some and go to playoffs. You are not winning any arguments because the season still has to play out.
We could be watching a tragedy or an inspirational story.
We don't know.
Imagine what this board looks like if we lose out?
Imagine if we win a playoff game?
Hit pause before you say more dumb shit with a certainty you should not feel.
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One of the primary boxes to check on that journey -- from time-to-time does the team beat good teams. When the Giants start doing that, I'll get behind people keeping their jobs and believing things are going well.
This team absolutely is playing better vs those good teams. We could have beaten everyone other than San Fran this year. In prior seasons we likely would have been blown out.
Some people here are unwilling to see improvement unless it is a win.. like it is a black vs white thing (win or lose). Christian, it really means you are unwilling to see improvement or unable to see it. That is really for you to decide.
If the "improvement measuring stick" is just a "W", then you do not even have to watch the games. Just check the score afterwards and make your determination.
It's not black or white to me at all. Progress is definitely on a spectrum -- something like:
Beat Bad Teams > Compete with Good Teams > Beat Good Teams > Beat Good Teams Regularly
I'm fine with the argument this team is more competitive against good teams. That's a really strange conclusion to draw from my comment. Last year the Giants had several games competitive through three quarters, this year they are competitive through 4.
Like I said, to me one of the primary boxes for the GM to keep his job after 3 years is from time-to-time have a team that beats good teams. If the Giants snag one of the next 4 games, I'd bet Gettleman keeps his job. If they lose all four, I don't think it's a lock.
I cannot help but think that pick was ownership 'selling hope' to the fan base. The mob loves to grab skill player jerseys; witness all of the 26s, and before that 13s in the stadium every Sunday. DG sold it as acquisition of a building block, but I have serious doubts.
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I personally do feel (couldnt call it thinking yet) that Barkley is the decision I question the most and would least want to see a risk adjusted same size re investment in his re signing.
I cannot help but think that pick was ownership 'selling hope' to the fan base. The mob loves to grab skill player jerseys; witness all of the 26s, and before that 13s in the stadium every Sunday. DG sold it as acquisition of a building block, but I have serious doubts.
He was the consensus top ranked player in the draft and led the team with 15 TDs (he had 9 more than OBJ and 3rd most in the NFL). He also led the team in TD's and yards last year despite missing 3.5 games.
Isn't the best player on the team generally considered a building block? Are Henry, CMC, Kamara, Zeke, etc building blocks?