I posted a comment in another thread yesterday about how polarizing Gettleman has been here. I get the sense that the anti-Gettleman crowd has their heels dug in so much that nothing could change their opinions of him.
For full disclosure, I wanted Gettleman to be let go after the 2019 season. But, I have to be fair that I like what is developing with this team.
Andrew Thomas has improved at left tackle over the last few weeks after a slow start. Both Shane Lemieux & Matt Peart have played well. As Baldy said, the Giants have a functioning OL which include 3 rookies — that is VERY encouraging.
His 2020 FA class has been his best here by far.
Ultimately, Gettleman will be tied to Jones. The jury is still out here, and I admit I’ve been very critical of Jones. However, since the second WAS game he has played much better.
I get how moving on from Eli was tough. Admittedly, I did not want to see Eli wearing a goofy Jacksonville Jaguar helmet to finish his career. Could the Giants have managed their resources better in 18/19? Absolutely. But, let’s not pretend it’s easy to move on from franchise legends. Eli won 2x SB MVP’s with this franchise, an extremely rare accomplishment. So, I get that it’s tough to move on, and pegging that ALL on Gettleman may not be fair. This led to the Saquon pick as well which is hotly debated.
So, I guess it depends if you are willing to look past the 2018 offseason. If the rebuild started *after* Eli left the team, it doesn’t look so bad. I see a direction and plan.
Lastly, Judge plays a factor here. How much influence did he have in the 2020 offseason? What is his relationship with Gettleman?
Based on what they say, Judge & Gettleman appear to have the same team building philosophy. If DG isn’t retained, it wouldn’t make sense to bring in a GM with no prior ties to the program Judge is trying to build. If it isn’t DG, the next GM should have worked with Judge prior or at minimum be familiar with the NE program. Anything otherwise would disrupt what is being built here imo.
As for the 4-7 record, it isn’t good enough. The next 5 games are still crucial. But, this OL has held up well against a strong WAS front and that matters going forward in this division.
In short, has your opinion on DG changed at all?
The team is 4-7. As bad as the Bengals are without Burrow, they were still 1st and 10 at midfield with around a minute left and a FG would have won the game. This is still very much a bottom tiered roster that needs another draft inside the top 10 more than a home playoff loss on WildCard Weekend.
We have competed well with some of the better NFC teams but have only beaten bad teams.
With three straight wins and the offensive line on a roll I was REALLY looking forward to us taking this momentum for a spin against Seattle.
Certainly, the offensive line can still be evaluated but I am sure the scheme/play-calling will change to suit the QB and so evaluating the development of others against good competition becomes more difficult.
I am more impressed by what DG did in free agency this year than the draft. It is too early to conclude anything on a draft class less than a season into their careers. I think much of the line improvement has been due to the coaches than the GM. They made a bad line a serviceable line.
However, the overall talent on this team isn’t much better than when he got here. EE is the only playmaker this offense has and he was here before DG. The second is Shepard who was also not a DG pick. Barkley has all world talent, but so far his NFL impact has been minimal. I’m not blaming him for Barkley’s injuries, but he took him #2 and has to live with the results, good or bad.
Would I take Jones at #6 again? Probably not. Would I sign Tate to a long term deal and not draft a WR in a very deep WR draft? Probably not.
For me DG is a mixed bag. Bad in 2018 and 2019, good in 2020. The question isn’t whether or not he has done enough to keep his job, the question is if there is anyone better available we should be looking at.
I have always said his legacy is tied to Jones who I would say is still undecided.
Now, i do like what he has done to the trenches.....love the current batch of FAs.
The team arrow is finally pointing up.
But they are still short on talent especially at edge, wr and corner. I will give him a little slack on corner as who expected Bakers mess and Beal pandemic.
I don't get the constant hate for Gettleman. I am a big fan of Judge. I like Jones and think he can be a franchise QB, health permitting. He has rebuilt the offensive line to where it looks to be solid. The defense has changed from a complete joke to a borderline top-10 unit. And he is two years into what was a major rebuild.
I wasn’t happy with the 2018 and the 2019 Giants seasons but was willing to see how the Beckham trade and the drafting of Jones pans out since both were huge defining moments for DG.
Fast forward one year, and now I am beginning to see both the Beckham trade and drafting of Jones is working to our good. Watching Jones mature, which seems to be coinciding with good OL play, is most appealing.
If any doubt, what DG has done in 2020 is nothing short of a miracle. We now have a plan, a coach, other coaches, the best draft ever, the best possible free agents picked up, and we are now super competitive. Oh yeah, we also beat the friggin Eagles....finally!
To not want to build on this is just stupid. I’m sure Judge works well with DG...so why would anyone want to tamper with this? Like I previously said, In my opinion, guys who still harbor resentment toward DG are affected by their emotions (over Eli perhaps) and have flushed their common sense and football acumen down the toilet.
LET DG REIGN!
PS. I don’t even need to see how the final 5 weeks play out. I believe we will still be competitive, win or lose, because i know these young players will just get better with practice and good coaching. Anyone with reasonable intelligence can see we now have enough good players to win big football games. Nothing but upward...
It was the hiring of Pat Shurmur. It was a terrible, uninspiring hire from the time that decision was made and those subsequent 2 years we were standing still as a franchise.
All GMs hit and miss on players. He missed on a bunch of free agents as he began turning this roster over but pretty much all of them except Solder were of very little consequence. I don't fault him personally for the Beckham deal as I believe there was ownership involvement there. Gettleman also did really well in shipping him out.
So far he appears to have done well at QB. And it's time to call the Leonard Williams trade a win.
Going back to my original point though, it's amazing what having the right coach can do for an organization. On his second try it appears he got his HC.
What's the endgame with Gettleman, anyway? He's almost 70 years old and recently had cancer - how long do you think he's going to be able to do the job even if he wants to? It's not as if he's done such a smashing job that you desperately want him to stay on as long as possible. Likely going to be replacing him within the next couple of years regardless, so what's the point of waiting?
I've thought all along it wasn't realistic to rebuild a team with such a horrible roster in less than 3 years. And sometimes you have to really tear it apart before you rebuild a championship team.
I don't blame him for trying to compete while starting the rebuild in '17 (Solder, et al).
No GM gets every move right, but Gettleman has gotten a lot more right than wrong.
3 quality starting OL in one draft?! His predecessor couldn't get 1 in 3 drafts! And how many teams have spent years looking for a franchise QB, a stud CB? Etc. etc.
I'm glad some people are starting to give DG some credit.
The run blocking is progressing nicely, but the pass protection continues to be atrocious. It’s no surprise, as most coaches say run blocking comes along more quickly.
In terms of who gets credit, who knows. Something very different happened with the young players the moment Judge walked in the door. He’s obviously a quality coach. I suspect that quality extends to the personnel side of things as well.
To me it’s all about batting average over the medium term for the GM. The downside of the new line is you have Solder’s contract, that Hernandez has been effectively benched, and Zeitler is both really expensive and pretty damn inconsistent.
Darryl Williams in the 4th, Norwell as UDFA, Trai Turner in the 3rd.
He looks to be doing well with the Giants in that respect as well. Gates as a UDFA, Peart in the 3rd, Lemieux in the 5th. (You can also include Thomas with the 1 and Hernandez with the 2 if you want to include higher picks).
I've currently moved out of the "wanting him gone" camp to the "won't complain if he is retained" side.
But if we lose out and finish with 4 wins, I'll probably switch back
Yes we are 4-7 but anyone can see we are improving and could frankly have a better record. I don't agree with the "we are 4-7 he stinks" line, teams have to improve on the field before its reflected int their records. Lets see next season when our young guys have another year, Saquons back, and Judge and the staff have a real off season.
He was the right guy to lead the Giants out of the Eli era and into the next one.
Now we need a guy that knows how to get the Giants to the next level.
It's a great team to inherit moving forward so long as they work well with Judge.
I also said his moves have generally, on paper, been good. They've just not worked out on the field due to a variety of reasons. He certainly hasn't ignored the OL, and this past draft he may have hit paydirt. You need luck as well as skill to be successful GM (IMO).
Regardless of playoffs/division, if the team gets to 6/7 wins I think he has to stay, but I think an emphasis will be on Judge really having input into player personnel - as it looks like the guy can really coach.
If this guy can coach and be our guy for the next 10 years....I say give him a lot of say in picking players.
And I think DG really won't have an issue with that. DG doesn't come across as a "me" guy....he wants to win and is willing to be part of a team. He's an organizational guy first.
If DG retires and Abrams takes over is one thing.....but a brand new GM would be a mistake....unless hand picked by Judge...which is not the Giants way.
The revolving door of Coaches and GMs is not what this team needs
I thought that the 4 LBs late had Judge written all over it.
If DG retires and Abrams takes over is one thing.....but a brand new GM would be a mistake....unless hand picked by Judge...which is not the Giants way.
The revolving door of Coaches and GMs is not what this team needs
Agreed. I could see Bob Quinn making sense, NE background and was recommended to the Lions by Accorsi.
But, NFL GM’s don’t grow on trees. A lot of these new GM’s flame out pretty quickly.
If we replaced Gettleman at the same time we hired Judge, what would be the opinion of a new GM that found
- Martinez, Bradberry and Ryan in free agency at relatively (comparable) cheap prices.
- Drafted Thomas, Peart and Lemieux to redo the OL and Holmes (can't grade Mckinney yet).
- Traded for Yiadom.
I'm asking because not getting rid of him last year is similar to sunken cost. You can't change it. The Giants right or wrong decided to give him another year. I'd consider last offseason a home run.
Is it Judge's influence?
Is it him getting rid of some of the older scouts or revising grading criteria?
Is it complete luck?
Bottom line is that the current combination is yielding much better results than Gettleman/Shurmur or Reese/McAdoo or Reese/Coughlin (later version).
Taken in that vacuum, does this change
What's the endgame with Gettleman, anyway? He's almost 70 years old and recently had cancer - how long do you think he's going to be able to do the job even if he wants to? It's not as if he's done such a smashing job that you desperately want him to stay on as long as possible. Likely going to be replacing him within the next couple of years regardless, so what's the point of waiting?
Tunnel vision Greg. You need to broaden your thinking here....
Look at the improvement from last year and look at how young we now are and how much the roster and coaches have changed....ALL FOR THE GOOD!
Get out of your “simple” but we still are just 4- 7 mindset. See the big picture brother.
I keep remembering the little run the Giants had in 2018 to climb to 5-8 and how obnoxious some fans got about it. In retrospect who you play and when is quite important when judging your future.
We don't have to look back much further than Hernandez to see a guy with promise and excellent physical skills, who the league figured out pretty quickly as well.
These coming weeks are telling. If the Giants get the doors blown off the next 4 weeks against average to above average teams, let's revisit this conversation.
The roster he took over was a mess.
I keep remembering the little run the Giants had in 2018 to climb to 5-8 and how obnoxious some fans got about it. In retrospect who you play and when is quite important when judging your future.
We don't have to look back much further than Hernandez to see a guy with promise and excellent physical skills, who the league figured out pretty quickly as well.
These coming weeks are telling. If the Giants get the doors blown off the next 4 weeks against average to above average teams, let's revisit this conversation.
I am not sure I see chest thumping. If there is I certainly find it silly, because I find chest thumping silly anytime it is used. I don't find it useful one bit, there are better ways to communicate that one may have had insight other missed.
I see a lot of fans use certainties regarding their views when it's likely they are missing information and or not considering all of the reasonable possibilities. I think discussion is good, but discussion is quickly spoiled in my view when opinions are communicated as irrefutable whether I agree with that view or not.
The Giants cap was also not a mess or in bad shape when Gettleman started. He had the flexibility to spend a significant amount of money (notably Solder and extending Beckham), and also had the room to move and absorb the players under contract he didn't want.
Gettleman methodically remade the roster, and hopefully we will see the fruits of that labor turn into wins soon, but he had all of the financial, cap, and draft resources available to do so.
The germane comment I was referencing. I agree with your overall sentiment.
PS. I don’t even need to see how the final 5 weeks play out. I believe we will still be competitive, win or lose, because i know these young players will just get better with practice and good coaching. Anyone with reasonable intelligence can see we now have enough good players to win big football games. Nothing but upward...
I would agree that the cap situation wasn't in complete disarray - but he did have to maneuver his way around an aging QB who's contract was a complete anchor.
I still think he was tasked with trying to win with Eli which, in my opinion, explains the SHurmer hire and SOlder signing...but there no way that situation he took over was a way less desirable spot that the one he's leaving (should he not be there next season).
Change is the enemy of NFL success; show me a franchise that's always changing coaches and GMs and I'll show you a losing franchise. I wouldn't give Gettleman an extension but I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do in a buyers' free agency market next year.
I still think he was tasked with trying to win with Eli which, in my opinion, explains the SHurmer hire and SOlder signing...but there no way that situation he took over was a way less desirable spot that the one he's leaving (should he not be there next season).
I don't disagree the team is on an upswing, and it was on a downswing when he started.
I don't give Gettleman any credit or sympathy as it relates to Manning. He knew the situation when walked in the door and he either:
1) Agreed Manning was part of the solution as he explicitly said
or
2) Didn't have the guts or conviction to stand up to Mara
Gettleman perpetrated a lot of nonsense in 2018 and 2019. Doing better in 2020 and sucking the previous 2 years isn't mutually exclusive in my view.
A .500 record or better would help.
The fact that the Mara's finally got the HC right (thank you Bill Belichick) doesn't change anything with the GM or player procurement.
But I don't expect any changes with the GM or anyone else in that area. Joe Judge is just going to have to be good enough to build a championship team with the guys he's currently working with. I think he is.
BUT someone had to go through that transition - and in hindsight - it looks like DG was the guy to guide the team through that. I do give him credit for that.
Quote:
I am not sure I see chest thumping. If there is I certainly find it silly, because I find chest thumping silly anytime it is used. I don't find it useful one bit, there are better ways to communicate that one may have had insight other missed.
The germane comment I was referencing. I agree with your overall sentiment.
Quote:
LET DG REIGN!
PS. I don’t even need to see how the final 5 weeks play out. I believe we will still be competitive, win or lose, because i know these young players will just get better with practice and good coaching. Anyone with reasonable intelligence can see we now have enough good players to win big football games. Nothing but upward...
Gotcha 👍
Besides the obvious fact that the OL is still very much a work-in-process, doesn't it make sense to look at ALL of Gettleman's decisions for the past 3 years relative to addressing the offensive line if you are going to use it as the basis to rely on him going forward?
Or do you think an "OL-Lightbulb" just went off in his head this past spring?
13-35.
We could also be ascending and make the playoffs.
These games REALLY matter.
The Giants cap was also not a mess or in bad shape when Gettleman started. He had the flexibility to spend a significant amount of money (notably Solder and extending Beckham), and also had the room to move and absorb the players under contract he didn't want.
...
I agree with quote one about the situation he inherited and how he had the flexibility to make the moves he wanted. Which leads to the talent deprived section of the second quote. The members of that untalented roster brought back a lot of draft picks and players in trades. The rest of that quote is true in my opinion but a huge part of that was on the fact that we had Eli.
Besides the obvious fact that the OL is still very much a work-in-process, doesn't it make sense to look at ALL of Gettleman's decisions for the past 3 years relative to addressing the offensive line if you are going to use it as the basis to rely on him going forward?
Or do you think an "OL-Lightbulb" just went off in his head this past spring?
He signed one of the top FA OLs and spent a 2nd rounder on Hernandez in 2018, and also signed the OL from Jacksonville. The FA signings did not work out, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Gates was also brought in as an UDFA.
2019, he traded for Zeitler and signed Remmers as a stop gap.
2020, he signed Fleming and invested heavily in the draft in Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux.
I don't think they have more talent now than when he took over three years ago the entire roster is pretty much different.
There is no one on the team that is a true impact player, save maybe Bradberry? Barkley? is Leonard Williams a game changer?
I like Judge though seems like he could be a good one. Seems like he is doing more with less, but Time will tell.
I would Love to change my opinion on him, but if thye don't win 2 more games here in the next 5 weeks, it's another bad record and another top 6-10 pick. How much credit is a guy supposed to get who constantly finds the team picking top 10?
If you don't think that was DG's mandate then I don't know what to tell you. He tried to make some moves to facilitate that and most of them turned to shit.
He really needs to be judged since he has brought in DJ. If you look at his true rebuilding process and the hiring of the coach that he wanted, it's been remarkable.
But he is old and acts like a buffoon, so most fans hate him. Fine, he and Judge seem to have a very good relationship. That's all that really matters.
Go win some meaningful games in Dec and I'll be happy
The jury is still out on Jones, the Barkley pick was poor draft strategy, and let's give this OL time to be good over an extended period of time before we declare problem solved.
Joining others, we haven't beat a winning team this year, last year.
The last time we really beat a winning team was 2018 in week three when we beat 0-3 Houston at the time and later in the year beat Chicago with Chase McDaniels, who basically gave us the game.
As far as I'm concerned, this season is more a reflection of outstanding coaching than any of the groceries obtained by Gettleman...
Quote:
as the underlying rational for retaining Gettleman.
Besides the obvious fact that the OL is still very much a work-in-process, doesn't it make sense to look at ALL of Gettleman's decisions for the past 3 years relative to addressing the offensive line if you are going to use it as the basis to rely on him going forward?
Or do you think an "OL-Lightbulb" just went off in his head this past spring?
He signed one of the top FA OLs and spent a 2nd rounder on Hernandez in 2018, and also signed the OL from Jacksonville. The FA signings did not work out, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Gates was also brought in as an UDFA.
2019, he traded for Zeitler and signed Remmers as a stop gap.
2020, he signed Fleming and invested heavily in the draft in Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux.
?? Wasn't suggesting he ignored it, but that he completely struggled in improving it...hell, even stabilizing it.
It took a desperation OL strategy in the draft this year, and probably moreso better coaching, to finally get it to a functioning level. And this was arguably the weakest area of the team for a decade.
If you don't think that was DG's mandate then I don't know what to tell you. He tried to make some moves to facilitate that and most of them turned to shit.
He really needs to be judged since he has brought in DJ. If you look at his true rebuilding process and the hiring of the coach that he wanted, it's been remarkable.
Well I don't think that was his mandate. DG did his own assessment and thought he could retool it, but he wholly underestimated Eli and the rest of the roster.
And btw, even if it was his mandate, he still made moves that "turned to shit" in your words so that is completely on him. A so-called mandate doesn't preclude making sensible value-add transactions.
The jury is still out on Jones, the Barkley pick was poor draft strategy, and let's give this OL time to be good over an extended period of time before we declare problem solved.
Joining others, we haven't beat a winning team this year, last year.
The last time we really beat a winning team was 2018 in week three when we beat 0-3 Houston at the time and later in the year beat Chicago with Chase McDaniels, who basically gave us the game.
As far as I'm concerned, this season is more a reflection of outstanding coaching than any of the groceries obtained by Gettleman...
Agree. The coaching staff is getting way more out of this group than I think even the most optimistic fans expected.
The jury is still out on Jones, the Barkley pick was poor draft strategy, and let's give this OL time to be good over an extended period of time before we declare problem solved.
Joining others, we haven't beat a winning team this year, last year.
The last time we really beat a winning team was 2018 in week three when we beat 0-3 Houston at the time and later in the year beat Chicago with Chase McDaniels, who basically gave us the game.
As far as I'm concerned, this season is more a reflection of outstanding coaching than any of the groceries obtained by Gettleman...
I agree with this. Again, I still think the best thing for the franchise would be for DG to gracefully step down, call it for health reasons, and stay on as a consultant type guy.
Then get a guy that does get modern football.
I would love to believe that the Giants used DG as scapegoat to get past Eli, dump popular high priced vets (ie OBJ, JPP, Vernon, Jenkins, Collins, etc.), and get the franchise on the other side of an era of football that had been very successful.
A new aged GM that was in-tune with modern football that could usher in a new, successful era would not have made it through to the other side. Now that person has been given a great opportunity to bring about more winning, championship caliber football.