Watched the Steelers game today. Watching Ben play at a high level at this time in his career. Both he and Eli along with Rivers all drafted in 2004. Only one is not playing right now, Eli. I was thinking how poorly the last years of Eli’s career were compared to Ben. Steelers continued to provide Ben with talent while the Giants went into a downfall. Both won two Superbowls. Eli, twice MVP in the games. Last years of his career running for his life behind a terrible OL. Starting QB streak ended by Geno Smith! I get Eli made tons of money and all that however as a fan for over 60 years wish he could have had stayed longer
That said, perhaps Ben does better with the 06 or 10 playoffs.
Giants would have had not lost the picks from the Manning trade had they gone with Ben, I presume 2 solid additional starters would have come from that.
All said, Ben would have suffered from the same shitty O-line development, I doubt he would have fared better.
That said.
Imagine if Eli Manning was on the Steelers... *shudder* - he would have been a pox on the house of Tom Brady. I'm guessing 3-4 rings.
In the end, character is what really makes me happy the Giants took Manning. He was a class act in an era largely devoid of them.
He entered the league a year older than Roethlisberger and Rivers to begin with.
Add to that the beating he took, and we should be surprised he lasted as long as he did.
Does anyone really think the defense carried us in 2011? We were like 27th in yards and points. The D was MUCH better in the playoffs, and we don't make, no less win, the SB without them playing at that level, but the 2011 SB is all Eli. He carried that team to the postseason, and was pretty damn good when he got there.
BUT its impossible to deny Ben has overall played much better in the regular season, and had a more fruitful career.
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In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said:
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Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball.
2009 Saints with Drew Brees. 2017 Eagles with Nick Foles.
Okay, let's review. The 2011 Giants were:
#26 in defense
#32 in rush yards per game
#32 in rush yards per carry
#32 in giving up QB pressures
They were among the league's worst at stopping anybody, and were the absolute worst in the league at running the ball and protecting the passer. They won the Superbowl.
2011 was as close to a 1 man team as any team in the history of the NFL.
I think years of poor line play led to his decline in the final years.
I also think the Giants make the playoffs more with Big Ben as QB, but don't win any Super Bowls.
Ben played 16 games in his 17 year career 4 TIMES. I don't think I really need to give Eli's numbers on that one.
THe Steelers saw it last year, the Giants are about to witness it Sunday - when your starting QB is down - it's really hard to win. When they are healthy, and good, you always have a shot.
The main difference between Eli and Ben is that Ben played for a much, much better orgnaization than Eli.
Defense alone, look at the ranks each season of points per game between the Steelers and the Giants since 2004. In only one season did the Giants have a stingier defense. Not only that, look how often the Steelers were near the top of the league!
Also, and tied in with the defense: the Steelers won games whether Ben played or not. Consider this: Eli finished his career 117-117, a .500 record.
The Steelers since 2004 are 178-88-1
Ben is 155-71-1
In other words, throughout Ben's career, the Steelers with Ben's backup are 23-17!
Those QB?
Charlie Batch: 9 starts
Tommy Maddox: 5 starts
Dennis Dixon: 3 starts
Byron Leftwich: 1 start
Michael Vick: 3 starts
Landry Jones: 5 starts
Mason Rudolph: 8 starts
Devlin Hodges: 6 starts
Not exactly a murderer's row of QBs, and that grouping performed to just-over 9-win season average.
And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh?
Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver.
But what about:
Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant.
Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB.
Wonder why?
Uhh! Plax?
However, I was in the stadium in Foxboro when the Giants beat the Pats in 2011. I can also objectively say that the last 5 or so minutes of that was some of the best QB play I've ever seen. In that 5 minute period alone Eli made 4 or 5 HUGE BALLS throws that other guys are lucky to have 1 or 2 of in a full season. The best part was the crowd when the Giants got the ball back on their final drive. Only 1:36 left and 80 yards to go, and that crowd was kind of quiet...they were too nervous to make a lot of noise. When Eli hit Ballard for 28 yards on 3rd and 10, they knew they were fucked.
I don't think Eli is a Hall of Famer, but he has things on his resume that mean more than that. I will always love that guy and I hope he enjoys a long and happy life in peace.
I wouldn't be saying those things about Roethlisberger if things had turned out different and he'd been here instead.
Same?
reversed?
Eli/Ben 1/2?
Ben/Eli 1/2?
Ben definitely doesn't drop to 11.
And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh?
Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver.
But what about:
Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant.
Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB.
Wonder why?
Well a bunch of those guys went to go play with garbage at QB and AB completely fell off his rocker and Bell got fat, went to a garbage team, and essentially just wanted to collect a paycheck. Ben was a very good QB in his prime, but like many, he constantly looked better because the Steelers are arguably the best run franchise in football. Why does the third SB matter when he essentially is just a passenger for two of them. In fact in his first he was a drunk unruly passenger threatening to storm the cockpit.
I think Eli is the better QB than Ben but he has had a great career. I actually wanted the Giants to draft him. I thought he would be great on a team with a strong running game in the PA with a threat to run as well. I would not be surprised if TC really liked Ben as well. One thing I know for sure is Eli was a great teammate. Never sold the franchise out with all the bad drafts. I wonder how Ben would have handled that.
In all these threads about who is the better QB I think it still comes back to any great QB needs a lot of help to shine in both talent and coaching. Eli not a HOF is a ridiculous statement imo.
The main difference between Eli and Ben is that Ben played for a much, much better orgnaization than Eli.
Defense alone, look at the ranks each season of points per game between the Steelers and the Giants since 2004. In only one season did the Giants have a stingier defense. Not only that, look how often the Steelers were near the top of the league!
Also, and tied in with the defense: the Steelers won games whether Ben played or not. Consider this: Eli finished his career 117-117, a .500 record.
The Steelers since 2004 are 178-88-1
Ben is 155-71-1
In other words, throughout Ben's career, the Steelers with Ben's backup are 23-17!
Those QB?
Charlie Batch: 9 starts
Tommy Maddox: 5 starts
Dennis Dixon: 3 starts
Byron Leftwich: 1 start
Michael Vick: 3 starts
Landry Jones: 5 starts
Mason Rudolph: 8 starts
Devlin Hodges: 6 starts
Not exactly a murderer's row of QBs, and that grouping performed to just-over 9-win season average.
So what.
Was Joe Montana a great QB? Those 9ers teams were so stacked that they won a lot of games with Steve Bono filling in when Montana and Young were hurt. Do you diminish Montana for that? You still have to be able to pull the trigger and deliver.
There has been one constant for seventeen years in Pittsburgh - Ben Roethlisberger. So hundreds of players have come and gone. And through those seventeen years they have had two - just two - losing seasons. Is that a coincidence? I think not.
Rivers is a compiler not in the same class as either guy.
But he was a complete scum off the field. Still is. A total reprobate. It gets harder and harder for me to accept who he was on the field knowing all the issues he had off of it.
So I get why some bring up BR's issues off the field in this Eli v Ben debate, it does feel a bit like stones are being thrown inside a glass house.
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In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said:
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Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball.
2009 Saints with Drew Brees. 2017 Eagles with Nick Foles.
Okay, let's review. The 2011 Giants were:
#26 in defense
#32 in rush yards per game
#32 in rush yards per carry
#32 in giving up QB pressures
They were among the league's worst at stopping anybody, and were the absolute worst in the league at running the ball and protecting the passer. They won the Superbowl.
2011 was as close to a 1 man team as any team in the history of the NFL.
Eli did really well that year certainly, and he did carry the team a bit.
However, the 3 WR gave good defenses more trouble than Rodgers' squad or Saints.
And that defense was far from bottom tier in January. Was playing at top 5 level.
Neither Niners nor Patriots lose to a 1 man team that year.
The Giants defense and the 3 WRs did their job, but Eli playing like typical playoff Russell Wilson would have been a trophy for either SF or NE that year.
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Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball.
Does anyone really think the defense carried us in 2011? We were like 27th in yards and points. The D was MUCH better in the playoffs, and we don't make, no less win, the SB without them playing at that level, but the 2011 SB is all Eli. He carried that team to the postseason, and was pretty damn good when he got there.
Section331,
I hear it literally ALL THE TIME from non-Giants fans. Most Giants fans know the deal, I've had to memorize Eli's playoff stats to point out that possibly no QB in history had a better postseason statistically, and I have to point out to them that Eli's clutchness and great play carried us to wins throughout the season.
But I see people everywhere say that the defense "carried" the Eli to "both" of his super bowl victories, and that the defenses for those teams were more to credit than Eli. I particularly heard it over and over when Eli retired and the talk was about him going into the HOF potentially. And it wasn't just uninformed non-Giants fans saying this, there were a ton of talking heads on ESPN with exactly that take.
In 2007, sure, the defense was most key to us winning, but at the same time Eli played literally lights out in the playoffs and did a lot more than just "game management" to win. I wouldn't call "the great escape" and throw to Tyree a "game management" type play, that was a gunslinger mentality we needed to move the ball down the field and score a TD to win the game.
But 2011? I hate hearing people talk about that year as though it was the exact same story as 2007. Again, I don't see it on BBI very often, but I do hear it all the time, see it on social media, and see it on ESPN... it's annoying as all hell.
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He would be in jail.
We got the right guy.
Geez, I missed the conviction. When was he put in jail? I love the narrative.
Yeah, the Giants got the right guy ultimately.
You honestly believe with a straight face that if Big Ben had ended up a Giant, he wouldn't have ended up in jail considering his history? I believe 100% he would have been ended up in jail. And yes, we ended up with the right guy.
I don't think Eli wanted to play. He could have but he didn't want to. Can't blame him: he's wealthy, is going to the HOF and has all his body parts in one piece never having gone under the knife and is spending time with his kids. Seems he and his family wanted to keep it that way. He's a wise man.
An all time great.
I don't know why people hold grudges against Roethlisberger. Sure, the Steelers player personnel department has made the Giants department look like Ted Mack's amateur hour. The guy is a warrior and has taken an absolute beating to complete passes and make plays.
That was some qb draft. You could have taken any of the top 3 and done very, very well.
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Saints had 7 pro bowlers on that team. Eagles had 6 pro bowlers. Both teams went 13-3. That eagles team was good enough to plug in back up Foles and still win the super bowl (although I give Foles plenty of credit).
Eli and JPP were the only 2 pro bowlers on the 2011 Giants. They went 9-7 during the regular season and that took Eli throwing for 5000 yards and orchestrating, what, 7 4th quarter comebackS or something?
I don’t think we give Eli enough credit for how how turned UFA Cruz into a superstar (I give Cruz most of the credit of course for his hard work and talent but I don’t know if all of that comes to fruition without Eli, no offense to Victor).
Saints don't have any HoFs on that team except Brees. Skill set players were: RBs were Bush and Pierre Thomas. Wrs were Meacham and Colston. Shockey was the TE.
Giants had Eli. RBs Bradshaw and Jacobs. WRs were Nicks, Manningham, and Cruz. TE was Ballard.
In don't know, Leg. I think that Giant group compares favorably.
Saints key D guys were: Vilma, Sharper, Harper, Smith, Jenkins, and Porter.
Giants key D guys were: Paul, Tuck, Osi, Rolle, Phillips, Kiwi, Webster, Canty.
Do you really think the Saints were discernibly better on D looking back at this?
Saints, indeed, had a better year and it showed from start to finish. But man to man, I think the Giants were actually just as talented...
We can agree to disagree, brother :)
I won't disagree with you though that Brees is also in the conversation and would probably be no lower than #2 on this list IMO. Brees also had historically one of the best postseasons of any QB. It's ironic neither QB won MVP in their respective Title years, but of course that has to do with the fact that playoffs are not taken into account in awarding the NFL MVP unfortunately.
I simply disagree for a few reasons:
I actually think that collection of offensive weapons was one of the best collectively in the entire Brees/Payton era. Not just Colston and Meacham, but also Devery Henderson, Lance Moore, even Roby. All were legit weapons. Bush, Thomas, but also Bell were a great 3-headed backfield... Bush in particular was a huge threat athletically even if he never panned out as a long-term every-down back. I also think Payton has a far superior offensive mind to Gilbride (no offense to Kevin).
And then Shockey at TE. That's the biggest difference to me: the fact Eli could make Ballard and Pascoe look like dynamic weapons. I love Ballard, but he may have been the worst starter on any Giants SB winning team (on either side of the ball). Of course Brees also elevated the talent around him, but I don't think Eli ever gets enough credit for just how much he did elevate the games of his receivers, from a UFA like Cruz, to Plax, to Manningham, to a 1st rounder like Odell. So many of Eli's guys (ahem, Odell) go on to do so little w/o him. This is a difficult debate to have without really being able to know for sure who elevated their supporting cast more.
Saints also had 2 pro bowlers on the OL compared to the Giants' zero (yes the NYG OL played well as a unit in run blocking, but as another poster said earlier they allowed more QB pressures than any other o-line in the NFL that year-- that's also a major piece of this IMO).
Also-- there are a lot of teams that won super bowls without a Hall of Famer on their roster (or only 1, which was the case with Brees' and Eli's teams in '09 and '11 respectively), so IMO that's not a huge deal. I would also argue that Darren Sharper possibly would be in the HOF if it weren't for the many rape charges brought against him, but I'm not going to argue that an old Darren Sharper made the difference for the Saints (although he did go to the Pro Bowl that year, as did Vilma and Harper). Saints had a great pass defense that year, they were 5th in pass TDs allowed and 3rd in Interceptions. 20th ranked D overall. Giants 2011 defense definitely rose to the occasion and made stops when they had to in the postseason, but from every measure we have (other than our eyes) the '09 Saints defense was superior to the '11 Giants defense.
One last thing-- Peyton Manning was the true GOAT of being able to carry a crappy team to the postseason and further than they should've gone, he did it year after year, but the key here is he never actually won a super bowl with those crappy teams-- only when the Colts had and actual MEDIOCRE defense (as opposed to awful) did he manage to win a SB. So I'm not taking anything away from the abilities of Peyton, Brees, or Rodgers to carry a bad team, but I do think Eli's 2011 SB win was, as another poster said, the closest thing we've seen to a one-man team winning the SB (though course there could NEVER be a one-man team winning a SB, that's barely possible in the NBA much less the NFL where you have 22 players on the field).
Well a bunch of those guys went to go play with garbage at QB and AB completely fell off his rocker and Bell got fat, went to a garbage team, and essentially just wanted to collect a paycheck. Ben was a very good QB in his prime, but like many, he constantly looked better because the Steelers are arguably the best run franchise in football. Why does the third SB matter when he essentially is just a passenger for two of them. In fact in his first he was a drunk unruly passenger threatening to storm the cockpit.
In their first run, check out his games leading up to the SB in 2005 and get back with me. The games against Cincy, Indy, and Denver.
Cincy: 14/19 208 YDs, 3 TDs, 0 INTs
@ Indy (P.Manning): 14/23, 197 Yds, 2 TDs, 1 INT
@ Denver: 21/29, 275 YDs, 2 TDs, 0 INTs
So in three games into the SB, 49/71, 69%, 7 TDs, 1 INT.
Are those number bad?
Did you see the game winning drive against Arizona in SB42, where he was 21/30, 256 YDs, 2 TDs, 1 INT?
That's some passenger...
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He's going to make it very interesting if he wins a third SB. Then we are talking top ten of all-time.
And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh?
Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver.
But what about:
Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant.
Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB.
Wonder why?
Uhh! Plax?
Ok, but that's a wash since both Roeth and Eli played with him.
We can agree to disagree, brother :)
I won't disagree with you though that Brees is also in the conversation and would probably be no lower than #2 on this list IMO. Brees also had historically one of the best postseasons of any QB. It's ironic neither QB won MVP in their respective Title years, but of course that has to do with the fact that playoffs are not taken into account in awarding the NFL MVP unfortunately.
I simply disagree for a few reasons:
I actually think that collection of offensive weapons was one of the best collectively in the entire Brees/Payton era. Not just Colston and Meacham, but also Devery Henderson, Lance Moore, even Roby. All were legit weapons. Bush, Thomas, but also Bell were a great 3-headed backfield... Bush in particular was a huge threat athletically even if he never panned out as a long-term every-down back. I also think Payton has a far superior offensive mind to Gilbride (no offense to Kevin).
And then Shockey at TE. That's the biggest difference to me: the fact Eli could make Ballard and Pascoe look like dynamic weapons. I love Ballard, but he may have been the worst starter on any Giants SB winning team (on either side of the ball). Of course Brees also elevated the talent around him, but I don't think Eli ever gets enough credit for just how much he did elevate the games of his receivers, from a UFA like Cruz, to Plax, to Manningham, to a 1st rounder like Odell. So many of Eli's guys (ahem, Odell) go on to do so little w/o him. This is a difficult debate to have without really being able to know for sure who elevated their supporting cast more.
Saints also had 2 pro bowlers on the OL compared to the Giants' zero (yes the NYG OL played well as a unit in run blocking, but as another poster said earlier they allowed more QB pressures than any other o-line in the NFL that year-- that's also a major piece of this IMO).
Also-- there are a lot of teams that won super bowls without a Hall of Famer on their roster (or only 1, which was the case with Brees' and Eli's teams in '09 and '11 respectively), so IMO that's not a huge deal. I would also argue that Darren Sharper possibly would be in the HOF if it weren't for the many rape charges brought against him, but I'm not going to argue that an old Darren Sharper made the difference for the Saints (although he did go to the Pro Bowl that year, as did Vilma and Harper). Saints had a great pass defense that year, they were 5th in pass TDs allowed and 3rd in Interceptions. 20th ranked D overall. Giants 2011 defense definitely rose to the occasion and made stops when they had to in the postseason, but from every measure we have (other than our eyes) the '09 Saints defense was superior to the '11 Giants defense.
One last thing-- Peyton Manning was the true GOAT of being able to carry a crappy team to the postseason and further than they should've gone, he did it year after year, but the key here is he never actually won a super bowl with those crappy teams-- only when the Colts had and actual MEDIOCRE defense (as opposed to awful) did he manage to win a SB. So I'm not taking anything away from the abilities of Peyton, Brees, or Rodgers to carry a bad team, but I do think Eli's 2011 SB win was, as another poster said, the closest thing we've seen to a one-man team winning the SB (though course there could NEVER be a one-man team winning a SB, that's barely possible in the NBA much less the NFL where you have 22 players on the field).
Good stuff, Leg. When I was contemplating your question about that 2011 NYG team, I gave it a lot of thought because it was an interesting point you raised. And it's certainly subjective depending on how you view personnel. But the Saints and Brees jumped out at me because it was a team where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. Good players, IMV, but not a lot of great, elite guys...outside of Brees.
Totally agree re: Peyton Manning. He just happened to playing in the same era as Belichick & Brady. The road through the AFC from 200-2019 was brutal because of the Pats...
Faulk (Peyton's rookie year), Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Wayne, Addai, Clark, a good OL.
And his defenses always at least had play makers. Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, etc.
And by his 2nd SB, he was basically the crappy player being carried.
Not sure I agree with that take.
Faulk (Peyton's rookie year), Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Wayne, Addai, Clark, a good OL.
And his defenses always at least had play makers. Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, etc.
And by his 2nd SB, he was basically the crappy player being carried.
Not sure I agree with that take.
You could make the case that the last few years in Indy were more the result of Peyton being godlike than the supporting cast being great. We saw what a dumpster fire the Colts were in 2011 without Peyton. Painter was terrible, but to bring the conversation back to the Steelers, look at what they did last year without Ben in terms of being competitive.
As far as the Eli/Ben stuff goes, you guys have pretty much dissected all the numbers so I'll just say this. What always annoys the living hell out of me is that whenever Eli's two Super Bowls are brought up, the media and non-Giant fans talk about the helmet catch and Eli is just lucky and how the defenses were the real reason they won. Meanwhile no one ever talks about how Ben was carried to that first Super Bowl. Steelers D held the #1 offense to 10 points, Ben didn't even complete double digit passes or throw a td, but no one ever holds that performance against his legacy.
For evidence, look at 2012 with Andrew Luck.
Rookie QB takes 2 - 14 team to 11 - 5. Has there ever been a bigger improvement from one year to the next? And with a rookie QB?
And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh?
Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver.
But what about:
Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant.
Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB.
Wonder why?
There is an element of knowing when to move on from guys too. The receivers were all replaceable because the Steelers draft so well, unlike us. Jesse James having "the best years of his career with Ben" is uh, I guess the equivalent of saying Jake Ballard had the best year of his career with Eli. Mendenhall "falling off" probably had a bit to due with his whole ACL injury. Holmes' stint with the Jets ended poorly but as someone who hated those Jet teams, he was good there in 09/10 and was annoying as all hell.
For evidence, look at 2012 with Andrew Luck.
Rookie QB takes 2 - 14 team to 11 - 5. Has there ever been a bigger improvement from one year to the next? And with a rookie QB?
Yeah but that just sort of proves my point. That roster needed a high end QB. Mason Rudolph isn't doing much better than 2-14 on that 2011 Colts team. Caldwell is a decent coach, but not a miracle worker like Tomlin is.
The Steelers are just a tremendous organization that do pretty much everything well. Its no surprise that when you look at the QB injuries over the last two decades, the teams that have absorbed the blow the best are teams like Pittsburgh last year, New Orleans (Bridgewater/Hill) and New England in 08. Top to bottom, well run organizations.
McCarthy couldn't win without a healthy Rodgers (and still can't lol). I shudder to think what type of year the Giants would've had if Eli missed a season or a stretch of games during his prime years.
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He's going to make it very interesting if he wins a third SB. Then we are talking top ten of all-time.
And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh?
Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver.
But what about:
Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant.
Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB.
Wonder why?
There is an element of knowing when to move on from guys too. The receivers were all replaceable because the Steelers draft so well, unlike us. Jesse James having "the best years of his career with Ben" is uh, I guess the equivalent of saying Jake Ballard had the best year of his career with Eli. Mendenhall "falling off" probably had a bit to due with his whole ACL injury. Holmes' stint with the Jets ended poorly but as someone who hated those Jet teams, he was good there in 09/10 and was annoying as all hell.
I think there is some validity to that - sure.
On the other hand, perhaps the players Pittsburgh continues to find in the draft are good but get elevated to play better because of BR.
You have to give it to that guy. He hangs in the pocket as well as anyone I've ever seen to give his players a chance to get open. And he's been a moose, just impossible at times to bring down.
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In comment 15064639 bw in dc said:
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He's going to make it very interesting if he wins a third SB. Then we are talking top ten of all-time.
And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh?
Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver.
But what about:
Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant.
Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB.
Wonder why?
There is an element of knowing when to move on from guys too. The receivers were all replaceable because the Steelers draft so well, unlike us. Jesse James having "the best years of his career with Ben" is uh, I guess the equivalent of saying Jake Ballard had the best year of his career with Eli. Mendenhall "falling off" probably had a bit to due with his whole ACL injury. Holmes' stint with the Jets ended poorly but as someone who hated those Jet teams, he was good there in 09/10 and was annoying as all hell.
I think there is some validity to that - sure.
On the other hand, perhaps the players Pittsburgh continues to find in the draft are good but get elevated to play better because of BR.
You have to give it to that guy. He hangs in the pocket as well as anyone I've ever seen to give his players a chance to get open. And he's been a moose, just impossible at times to bring down.
Yeah it takes two to tango. I can't stand Pittsburgh and by extension, Ben, but I can't deny that he's been a great player. He and Eli will obviously always be connected because of the draft and all the drama. Both guys ended up in the right spot and all that.
Its just frustrating that Pittsburgh is just such a well run organization and the Giants turned into a dumpster fire after 2011 (Chris Mara being promoted to Senior VP of Player Personnel definitely not being at all related to that of course). And of course, injuries ravaging our receivers. Steve Smith, Cruz, Nicks, they are still only 35, 34 and 32 respectively. Its crazy. So sad, they were robbed of long careers and we were robbed of watching them.
The key change that occurred on that team was Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora coming back to life at the end of the season. People forget but BBI was calling Tuck a bum for most of that season. He was just so banged up that year. Through week 15, Tuck had just 3.0 sacks on the year. Osi was missing games due to injury and had a ton of haters on this site at the time who pretty much called him a one dimensional loser. The entire DL and defense was being carried by JPP, who was looking like the next Bruce Smith at the time.
But Tuck and Osi both got healthy down the stretch. As I mentioned earlier, Tuck had just 3 sacks through Week 15. But he had 2 sacks over the last 2 regular season games + 3.5 sacks in 4 playoff games and was a beast in the run game. Osi returned after weeks of being out injured in week 17 to face Dallas in what was for all intents and purposes a playoff game. Over that game + the 4 playoff games, Osi had 5.5 sacks and was creating havoc off the edge (including the huge FF vs. the Packers).
So with Tuck and Osi coming back to life, that DL went from "DPOY-caliber JPP + pretty good Linval + garbage" to "Best DL in Football" just like that. And with the DL playing at that level, the rest of the D picked up their game as well.
What Eli did was carry a terrible team to the playoffs, he was definitely amazing that year. But it was a combination of Eli playing at an MVP level + the DL returning to 2007 levels that made the Super Bowl win possible.
Do I think Ben has ever played at a higher level than 2011 Eli? No. But I do think he's had the far more consistent career and been better overall. Now, I think the Steelers being run significantly better than the Giants plays a big role in Ben's performance edge, but it's hard to really say how much.
Ben is a great QB and a definite HOFer. I think his ability to extend plays through sheer strength was an extremely rare skill, he's just such a tank. Is he one of the 10 best QBs ever? I'm sorry but I find that laughable even if he wins another ring. But he's certainly one of the best QBs of the last 25 years and will always be remembered for his unique skillset.
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Colts was more a commentary of Curtis Painter IMO than Peyton Manning.
For evidence, look at 2012 with Andrew Luck.
Rookie QB takes 2 - 14 team to 11 - 5. Has there ever been a bigger improvement from one year to the next? And with a rookie QB?
Yeah but that just sort of proves my point. That roster needed a high end QB. Mason Rudolph isn't doing much better than 2-14 on that 2011 Colts team. Caldwell is a decent coach, but not a miracle worker like Tomlin is.
The Steelers are just a tremendous organization that do pretty much everything well. Its no surprise that when you look at the QB injuries over the last two decades, the teams that have absorbed the blow the best are teams like Pittsburgh last year, New Orleans (Bridgewater/Hill) and New England in 08. Top to bottom, well run organizations.
McCarthy couldn't win without a healthy Rodgers (and still can't lol). I shudder to think what type of year the Giants would've had if Eli missed a season or a stretch of games during his prime years.
I think shitty QB (Curtis Painter) is different than needing a QB to carry the team. It's all speculation at this point, but with average QB play it's maybe a 8 - 8 or 9 - 7 team.
Even in 2010 (Peyton's last with the Colts) they were "only" 10 - 6, so to go 11 - 5 on the back end of the 2 - 14 year just doesn't scream to me Peyton carried the team in any unique way.
Plus you were already starting to see signs of decay on the roster. Reggie Wayne was the only legit skill position player remaining (unless you count Garcon), Freeney and Mathis were over 30, Bob Sanders missed almost the whole season and they had two rookies on the OL with 36 year old Jeff Saturday in his final Colts season.
Faulk (Peyton's rookie year), Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Wayne, Addai, Clark, a good OL.
And his defenses always at least had play makers. Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, etc.
And by his 2nd SB, he was basically the crappy player being carried.
Not sure I agree with that take.
Definitely not his final year in Denver did he carry anyone. He was definitely the one being carried that year. I mean he was old as hell I’m not going to base any evaluation his career on that year honestly... IMO he deserved it though after all the carrying he did.
Peyton definitely had weapons throughout his time in Indy, but I would say 2 things:
1) we really have no idea exactly how much Peyton’s supporting cast were elevated by him. I was joking with my friend one time that if Ike Hilliard and Amani Toomer has been drafted onto those colts teams they would be in the HOF just as Harrison is and Wayne is likely to be. Imagine “Ike Hilliard: A Football Life” on ESPN. Again, I was exaggerating when I said Hilliard would be as good as Harrison if he played for those Colts teams (although if you look at Harrison’s stats his first 3 years they’re pretty similar to pre-injury Hilliard’s stats, then Harrison exploded coinciding with Peyton taking off), but my basic point was that we really have no idea what those players’ careers would’ve been like without Peyton, and what OTHER players’ careers would have been like if they played with Peyton.
I think anyone who watched Manning play in the 2000s decade would agree that the dude was just flat out good enough to make ANYONE look amazing (and he DID regardless of who lined up next to him).
2) Manning made the playoffs just about every year with the Colts and some of those Colt’s defenses were absolutely god awful. They had to score on just about every drive because their D made every offense look like the Colts offense. Colts FO made sure to pay the dudes that Peyton liked and rarely paid their defensive players (they just relied on drafting young dudes on rookie contracts on defense). Freeney was great but he couldn’t do it all on his own.
I do sometimes wonder what would’ve happened if they’d invested a little more $ in their D, then got more mediocre OFFENSIVE players (savvy smart hard-working vets who maybe aren’t greatly physically gifted), then relied on Peyton to elevate their games— but they didn’t do that. I really feel like that dude could’ve made just about anyone an all star. But Peyton got to have his way and made Wayne and Harrison 2 of the highest paid WRs in the league and James was often THE highest paid RB. Don’t get me wrong— their plan worked in the regular season, but not in the playoffs because a) defense wins championships, and b) an elite passing offense is at a disadvantage in January in Foxboro against a Belichick defense.