Big Ben vs Eli

...Big Ben appears to be not playing lights out. But playing well enough to win. I will be interested to see how it goes over the next 5 games - and playoffs. Knowing him, he's going to suck it up and play well when they need it.

What does Pitt do next year (Ben is a free agent)?

Can they beat KC?

There's no shame in saying Ben is a tad above Eli...both are going to the HOF.

good OL, strong running game, good WRs. Eli got crap
Big Ben is not playing that well, he's more a game manager at this point

Was a better quarterback than Ben at his best.

But Rothlisberger had the better career, hard to deny that.

He would be in jail.

We got the right guy.

of his career.

I don’t think the Giants ever really protected Eli at all. It was always on his shoulders.

They are both legendary Hall of Famers. Ben has had more success, but I think he self destructs in New York, so it worked out best for both teams and players.

throws just as many boneheaded INTs as Eli ever did. Threw one tonight. Yes he has had better protection through his career, but he is by no means a superior passer.

In comment 15064625 joeinpa said:

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Was a better quarterback than Ben at his best.

unfortunately we did not see Eli's best as often as we would have liked

In comment 15064631 EricJ said:

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In comment 15064625 joeinpa said: Quote: Was a better quarterback than Ben at his best. unfortunately we did not see Eli's best as often as we would have liked

. So true

He's going to make it very interesting if he wins a third SB. Then we are talking top ten of all-time.

And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh?

Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver.

But what about:

Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant.

Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB.

Wonder why?

Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball.

Sorry typing on my phone— too many typos

In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said:

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Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball.

2009 Saints with Drew Brees. 2017 Eagles with Nick Foles.

Eli played for were just not good. Ben had great players around him his entire career. His mobility and size in his younger years helped him too. Steelers have managed their teams very well over the years and consistently has maintained the same head coach who is arguably one of the better ones in the league.

In comment 15064623 BillKo said:

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...Big Ben appears to be not playing lights out. But playing well enough to win. I will be interested to see how it goes over the next 5 games - and playoffs. Knowing him, he's going to suck it up and play well when they need it. What does Pitt do next year (Ben is a free agent)? Can they beat KC? There's no shame in saying Ben is a tad above Eli...both are going to the HOF.

Playing well enough to win? They are 11-0

But Peyton Big Ben and Rodgers are not far behind in terms of year after year consistent high level of excellence. Wilson is working his way into that class.

not even close

but the Steelers organization have done very well by him. That organization has been consistent, and has provided a strong defense for nearly his entire career, and a very strong offense for much of it as well.

You could go back through Big Ben's entire career and if you do so, you'll find that he has missed a decent number of games, and in those games, the Steelers have won at a very impressive clip with backup QBs.

In comment 15064639 bw in dc said:

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He's going to make it very interesting if he wins a third SB. Then we are talking top ten of all-time. And for all of this talent he supposedly plays with on the offensive side of the ball, how has the talent done when they left Pittsburgh? Emmanuel Sanders did well in Denver. But what about: Santonio Holmes. LeVeon Bell. Antwaan Randle El. Mike Wallace. Rashard Mendenhall. Antonio Brown. Jesse James. Martavis Bryant. Basically all of them did their best work in Pittsburgh with BR as their QB. Wonder why?

Same with Odell and Manningham. Both guys elevated their playmakers.

.

But Eli is HOF too. It's not a contest.

In comment 15064657 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball. 2009 Saints with Drew Brees. 2017 Eagles with Nick Foles.

Saints had 7 pro bowlers on that team. Eagles had 6 pro bowlers. Both teams went 13-3. That eagles team was good enough to plug in back up Foles and still win the super bowl (although I give Foles plenty of credit).

Eli and JPP were the only 2 pro bowlers on the 2011 Giants. They went 9-7 during the regular season and that took Eli throwing for 5000 yards and orchestrating, what, 7 4th quarter comebackS or something?

I don’t think we give Eli enough credit for how how turned UFA Cruz into a superstar (I give Cruz most of the credit of course for his hard work and talent but I don’t know if all of that comes to fruition without Eli, no offense to Victor).

In comment 15064657 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball. 2009 Saints with Drew Brees. 2017 Eagles with Nick Foles.

Okay, let's review. The 2011 Giants were:

#26 in defense
#32 in rush yards per game
#32 in rush yards per carry
#32 in giving up QB pressures

They were among the league's worst at stopping anybody, and were the absolute worst in the league at running the ball and protecting the passer. They won the Superbowl.

2011 was as close to a 1 man team as any team in the history of the NFL.

In comment 15064625 joeinpa said:

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Was a better quarterback than Ben at his best. But Rothlisberger had the better career, hard to deny that.

Eh, unfortunately I do not think this is true. Ben is the best QB of the 2004 class. I am really not sure where you can argue Eli was better at their best. Eli was great, great in the 4th quarter during his prime. Ben still has more 4th quarter comebacks.

We can all agree that Ben had more to work with for the entirety of his career and that his organization never left him with a dogshit team for years on end like the Giants did. Ben is still the better player, and that is not a slight against Eli. Eli in his prime was a great player who won 2 championships. Nothing wrong with admitting we got the 2nd best guy in that class.

In comment 15064687 Leg of Theismann said:

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Saints had 7 pro bowlers on that team. Eagles had 6 pro bowlers. Both teams went 13-3. That eagles team was good enough to plug in back up Foles and still win the super bowl (although I give Foles plenty of credit). Eli and JPP were the only 2 pro bowlers on the 2011 Giants. They went 9-7 during the regular season and that took Eli throwing for 5000 yards and orchestrating, what, 7 4th quarter comebackS or something? I don’t think we give Eli enough credit for how how turned UFA Cruz into a superstar (I give Cruz most of the credit of course for his hard work and talent but I don’t know if all of that comes to fruition without Eli, no offense to Victor).

Saints don't have any HoFs on that team except Brees. Skill set players were: RBs were Bush and Pierre Thomas. Wrs were Meacham and Colston. Shockey was the TE.

Giants had Eli. RBs Bradshaw and Jacobs. WRs were Nicks, Manningham, and Cruz. TE was Ballard.

In don't know, Leg. I think that Giant group compares favorably.

Saints key D guys were: Vilma, Sharper, Harper, Smith, Jenkins, and Porter.

Giants key D guys were: Paul, Tuck, Osi, Rolle, Phillips, Kiwi, Webster, Canty.

Do you really think the Saints were discernibly better on D looking back at this?

Saints, indeed, had a better year and it showed from start to finish. But man to man, I think the Giants were actually just as talented...

Everybody knows about the iron man streak. Do you think Eli didn't have strained muscles, stingers, all kinds of injuries that keep most guys on the bench for a week or two. OF COURSE he did. He didn't talk about them, so we rarely heard about them. We know he played through a foot injury and a shoulder injury, but we never heard about him being nicked up. He played through everything. Everything.

The downside of that is there have to have been many, many games when he was playing through something that would have had 30 other starting QBs in the league on the bench (Big Ben first among them.), and that has to have affected his performance. There have to have been games, and plays, when he was physically limited and trying to make plays his body wouldn't let him make.

We'll probably never hear about it — that's not Eli's way. But if you could put him under truth serum you'd probably be shocked at what he managed to play through. We could argue about whether that was the best thing for the team, but was, say, 70% of Eli better than 100% of David Carr or Ryan Nassib? Probably.

In comment 15064709 81_Great_Dane said:

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Everybody knows about the iron man streak. Do you think Eli didn't have strained muscles, stingers, all kinds of injuries that keep most guys on the bench for a week or two. OF COURSE he did. He didn't talk about them, so we rarely heard about them. We know he played through a foot injury and a shoulder injury, but we never heard about him being nicked up. He played through everything. Everything. The downside of that is there have to have been many, many games when he was playing through something that would have had 30 other starting QBs in the league on the bench (Big Ben first among them.), and that has to have affected his performance. There have to have been games, and plays, when he was physically limited and trying to make plays his body wouldn't let him make. We'll probably never hear about it — that's not Eli's way. But if you could put him under truth serum you'd probably be shocked at what he managed to play through. We could argue about whether that was the best thing for the team, but was, say, 70% of Eli better than 100% of David Carr or Ryan Nassib? Probably.

Great post Dane. Ben was bigger, stronger, with a better arm and quicker feet than Eli.

But Eli was the most resilient football player I have ever seen. Freakin human gumby...

That's a skill too, both physical and mental.

100% Eli Manning

The biggest victim (on the field, anyway...he made an immense amount of money) of the organizational incompetence from 2013-2019 is Eli Manning. They even fucked up his last season by drafting Jones but starting Eli. If you're going to start Eli, use the fucking pick to get someone to help him.

Just a shit show. Mara, Reese, Coughlin, Gettleman...all of them did their part to somehow destroy a decade that started with a Super Bowl title.

I think the big difference was the franchises. The Giants at their best under Eli beat the Steelers with Ben. Unfortunately the Steelers were far more consistent in team building.

Take a look at the running stats and team defense of both teams. The Steelers had a Giants 2008 style team for Ben's first 5-7 years. Then they shifted and gave him great weapons the back half of his career. Eli had his great trio for all of one year before injuries derailed them and then a crap oline that is being fixed in..................2020.

bigger body, nice arm, etc... Thought Eli was, and I mentioned it here many times early in his career that he was indeed Etard. Welp, I have eaten much crow since then and am extremely happy he was the guy here for that nice stretch. Granted his last years he had little support, but he never wavered. Toughest SOB since Simms IMHO. Have him and Phil 1 and 1a in my lifetime although Tittle was up there as well. In any event, looking back, I'm glad I was not in Ernie's shoes when it came time to pick, cause he made the correct decision.

how he and the Steeler WRs have mastered the short passing game. They know how to quickly break press, run picks, smart crisp routes and Ben sees it all very quickly and is damn accurate with the ball.

Yesterday they missed a few in the red zone and had a few drops against decent Raven D, but they made up for it in the second half.

There are times they literally do not ever have to run the ball to move it right down the field.

In comment 15064695 FStubbs said:

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In comment 15064657 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball. 2009 Saints with Drew Brees. 2017 Eagles with Nick Foles. Okay, let's review. The 2011 Giants were: #26 in defense #32 in rush yards per game #32 in rush yards per carry #32 in giving up QB pressures They were among the league's worst at stopping anybody, and were the absolute worst in the league at running the ball and protecting the passer. They won the Superbowl. 2011 was as close to a 1 man team as any team in the history of the NFL.

Yes. He should have been NFL MVP that year. He carried them on his back.

In comment 15064627 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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He would be in jail. We got the right guy.

Geez, I missed the conviction. When was he put in jail? I love the narrative.

Yeah, the Giants got the right guy ultimately.

But that team got just enough pickup in contributions from the running game and the defense to make it thru the playoffs and win the superbowl. Neither area played well during most of the regular season but come Christmas time they started adding to what Eli was already doing. And it all came together.

And relative to MVP, a couple of guys named Rodgers and Brees played pretty well that year too I recall.

Thank the lord the Giants didn't have to travel to New Orleans in the playoffs...because they wouldn't have won there.

...and as that goes, I don't know how many pull off 2007 - that last drive?

That said, perhaps Ben does better with the 06 or 10 playoffs.

Giants would have had not lost the picks from the Manning trade had they gone with Ben, I presume 2 solid additional starters would have come from that.

All said, Ben would have suffered from the same shitty O-line development, I doubt he would have fared better.


That said.


Imagine if Eli Manning was on the Steelers... *shudder* - he would have been a pox on the house of Tom Brady. I'm guessing 3-4 rings.

In the end, character is what really makes me happy the Giants took Manning. He was a class act in an era largely devoid of them.

As for Ben, man does this guy love drama. After the game he’s going off about how he’s not good enough and the offensive performance was unacceptable. It’s all for show, just take the win and move on.

Head to head with their respective teams, it would appear that Ben was the better of the two but what would be the case if Eli played his career with the Steelers and their surrounding cast of talent? I don't think it would be even close. I would imagine, he still would be playing. Eli at his best carried the Giants to 2 Super Bowl wins. I think Eli with the Steelers would have more than 2 rings.

isn't necessarily that he declined faster.

He entered the league a year older than Roethlisberger and Rivers to begin with.

for a few years in the middle of his career, Eli had to deal with it for most of his. Even in 2011, the OL was running on fumes (31st in the league in rushing). Eli needed a decent OL to be effective, and he didn't have one for the last 8 years of his career.

Add to that the beating he took, and we should be surprised he lasted as long as he did.

In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said:

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Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball.

Does anyone really think the defense carried us in 2011? We were like 27th in yards and points. The D was MUCH better in the playoffs, and we don't make, no less win, the SB without them playing at that level, but the 2011 SB is all Eli. He carried that team to the postseason, and was pretty damn good when he got there.

Failed Eli, not the other way around, you see the big 5 to 10 yard passes Ben has to throw, in his last years even with this team now with Eli, we would be a contender. Ben not only has a great offensive line, he has recievers who take 5 yard dink passes and make them into 20 yard gains and first downs, the Steelers run a great program, they are a top 3 franchise in the league.

In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said:

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Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball.

Agree 100%. 2011 Eli (which is peak Eli, and I'd even put 2010 up there bc those INTs were the flukiest shit I've ever seen) was better than Ben at his best.

BUT its impossible to deny Ben has overall played much better in the regular season, and had a more fruitful career.

In comment 15064695 FStubbs said:

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In comment 15064657 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15064652 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: Was absolutely better than Peak Ben. 2011 was one of the best years any QB had in this history of the league. The idea some people still have that the Giants’ defense “carried” Eli in 2011 is completely insane. Eli probably carried that team moreso than any QB ever carried any team to a super bowl victory. Or at least a top 5 effort in that regard. Name a QB who one a super bowl with a lesser supporting cast combined on both sides of the ball. 2009 Saints with Drew Brees. 2017 Eagles with Nick Foles. Okay, let's review. The 2011 Giants were: #26 in defense #32 in rush yards per game #32 in rush yards per carry #32 in giving up QB pressures They were among the league's worst at stopping anybody, and were the absolute worst in the league at running the ball and protecting the passer. They won the Superbowl. 2011 was as close to a 1 man team as any team in the history of the NFL.

Hey now, a 4 man team. Manning, Cruz, Nicks, Manningham

Eli could have still been playing at a high level if they fixed the line post-2011.

I think years of poor line play led to his decline in the final years.

I also think the Giants make the playoffs more with Big Ben as QB, but don't win any Super Bowls.

Damn sure missed that one.

Is probably one of the most overblown statements. The guy held the ball more than any other QB.

in my opinion - is and always will be - Eli's best ability, which was his availability.

Ben played 16 games in his 17 year career 4 TIMES. I don't think I really need to give Eli's numbers on that one.

THe Steelers saw it last year, the Giants are about to witness it Sunday - when your starting QB is down - it's really hard to win. When they are healthy, and good, you always have a shot.

Same freaking argument..

I had seen it posted before ... Ben's teams has had great defenses too vs Eli.

I dont know that he ever really did what Eli did in 2011 though. But Ben and the Steelers have had a great run when healthy. Give him credit.