Logan Ryan has been a cornerstone for DC Graham's vastly improved Giants 2020 defense, but is there any place for him on the 2021 roster with McKinney, Peppers, and Love all expecting significant snaps?
I love what Ryan has accomplished on the field this year, love who he is off the field and in the clubhouse, but he's gonna earn 8 mil plus per year, is looking for a 3 year deal or better (I imagine) and doesnt fit a long term need for the Gmen.
If he and Tomlinson (or LW) depart for greener pastures, and the Giants sign either cap casualty cut players or their own guys with contacts ending, they should be in line for more than 1 comp pick in 2022...
Also half this forum seems to want Zeitler cut to save cap room in 2021. But he'll be the only pricey OL in the room in 2021, and if he's kept until his contract simply ends (in 2022) and he scores a decent FA deal then, his "loss" puts the Giants in line for a 2023 comp pick. Solder will be released next year I bet, or simply retire...
I wonder if they can find snaps for Kyle Murphy going forward. If he looks to have a future maybe both Hernandez and Zeitler are allowed to depart after 2021?
Even if Thomas and Peart are the clear cut starting OTs for 2021, the Giants will need a backup vet swing tackle to replace Fleming. Lots and lots of OTs in this 2021 draft, it seems.
You love those second-tier guys, they're good players, you want to pay them, but you can't get sentimental about it. If they are willing to stay for less money, great. If you have a winning team, some might. If not, you wipe away a tear and take the comp picks. Your draftees step in and replace the guys who leave. If you're lucky, some eventually become part of the core.
Better draft well with this plan or you are screwed.
So who's the core on this defense? I would argue that Tomlinson and Williams are both part of the core, because this team is built from the line out. Peppers and Bradberry too. Ryan? Maybe. Love, Holmes, McKinney, the young LBs? Don't have to worry about them yet. By the time there's a decision to be made, we'll know better.
Peppers has versatility, Love has versatility, even McKinney. You want these kinds of players.
He has been great but at his all pro price tag he may be too much.
Love isn’t trash. He’s played a lot better this year, like most of the defense.
He’s not going to be a starter, he’s our 3rd or 4th safety, but he has value on his cheap rookie deal.
I’d love to keep Ryan, but he’ll have plenty of interest from other teams.
But if Logan accepts a below market deal...which he might as cap is flat and there will not be a typical FA market.
The answer isq sure...1st Love is a backup...
McKinney and Ryan are the cover safeties....Peppers can play rover....which is a safety/lber combo.....get another top corner....speed and tackling become a major strength
Both guys have a penchant for creating turnovers, are able to cover, and both can tackle and run sideline to sideline.
Expecting LW, Ryan and DT all back. Not hard to manipulate contracts and extensions to accommodate players that want to be here. I think that it is a key difference now vs previous years under Shurmur and Mac Adoo. Players may want to be here and motivated to make a deal.
And btw, we play enough 3 Safety sets and dime looks to keep 4 safeties and a bunch of CBs busy.
But
Something tells me I missed something somewhere
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And possibility his wife dies...which crazy to think about.
But
Something tells me I missed something somewhere
Nevermind I remember the story after I looked it up I didn’t realize that was him. That’s crazy for that to happen and so fortunate. Maybe he’ll take a little less to stay in blue. Once a giant.......
What about "better to let a guy walk a year too early than a year too late?"
The Giants already have cheaper pieces in place for the future to do exactly what Ryan has done this past year, and by letting him walk as an FA, presuming he gets something close to what he wants in the FA market after such a productive year , this is how you play the comp pick game to stack your roster with a pipeline of young talented replacement parts.
Sign him for another two years, you'll get nothing when he leaves, and you force one top draft pick (Peppers or McKinney) to the bench.
Sign him for another two years, you'll get nothing when he leaves, and you force one top draft pick (Peppers or McKinney) to the bench.
Im not seeing where keeping Ryan forces someone to the bench. The Giants like versatile players and run a lot of 3 safety looks
I'd love to keep both Williams and Tomlinson but think that may be tough. I'm keeping Williams. He is a unique talent in his prime. I've had your thoughts about seeing DT leave and getting nothing in return. Now we may have 2 major contributors leaving which makes things worse.
I've watched the long-term successful teams in the league and they are always net losers in free agency and they get comp picks. There is a lot of time to see what the cap is going to be next year and the implications but if the decision is made that it doesn't make sense to keep DT or LR, I would seriously consider signing players who have been cut and not true free agents.
We can probably pick up a veteran wide receiver with size and/or can stretch the field. A two-way tight end or at least a tight end that can block better than Taolo may also be available. An edge rusher may be a little tougher but if we are building through the draft, maybe we don't need to sign a stud free agent but just one that is better then Sheard/Harris/Golden.
Cutting Solder no longer saves significant cap space because of his Covid opt out. The savings would have been next season, but now would be postponed until 2022. Cutting him next year would be like what cutting him this years would have been without the unique circumstances of this season.
Look for the Giants to keep Logan Ryan, he is great on and off the field. And Julian Love is a quality backup safety for a #4.
I agree with bw in dc on this one, they can sign 3 or 4 players for the cost of LW. I love LW, $18 mill per is way too much because of the expected CAP drop. Had it stayed or gone up, yes re-sign him.
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I would hope all 3 players (LW,DT and LR) can be re-signed as Tate and Solder will probably be cut to create cap space to sign those 3 players plus Wayne Gallman.
Cutting Solder no longer saves significant cap space because of his Covid opt out. The savings would have been next season, but now would be postponed until 2022. Cutting him next year would be like what cutting him this years would have been without the unique circumstances of this season.
4 million is nothing? Cutting Solder saves at least 4 milliion, maybe even 10 million. Something about before or after June 1st...
And for those who think Love isn’t a good player go read Sky’s last game review.
While the pay cut would certainly be helpful, the problem with Solder I think is bigger than that.
He can't play at this level any more, and taking the year away from the game certainly isn't going to help that.
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Solder probably would and certainly should agree to a pay cut that would free as much cap space as releasing him would. So that’s a no brainer. And keeping him and Zeitler gives us a solid three man group at both tackle and guard. That is great depth. Look at what happened this year to the Cowboys and Eagles OLs.
While the pay cut would certainly be helpful, the problem with Solder I think is bigger than that.
He can't play at this level any more, and taking the year away from the game certainly isn't going to help that.
He’s good enough to be a better than average backup swing tackle don’t you think.
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Solder probably would and certainly should agree to a pay cut that would free as much cap space as releasing him would. So that’s a no brainer. And keeping him and Zeitler gives us a solid three man group at both tackle and guard. That is great depth. Look at what happened this year to the Cowboys and Eagles OLs.
Why keep Solder? He is expensive and the guys replacing him are young, still developing, are the future, and have not really been a drop-off from what Solder gave the team.
You keep him as a backup instead of Fleming or the equivalent. We currently have no up and coming backup OTs that are better than PS level so you not displacing a younger player either.
Fleming has been solid. Is he who you want to plan to start, NO, but for what he cost, he is a great value. I would bring him back. Unless he is looking for a pay raise.
Sorry, but Zeitler is not our current best OL. He’s been average at best this year.
The answer is Gates. And frankly I’m not sure if Zeitler is our best G anymore. That’s probably Lemieux.
That gives Ryan some financial security while the Giants affordably retain a capable vet. Sounds like a win win.
I'd wager they work to keep him and let Tomlinson walk, in addition to other pricey cuts they're likely to trigger.
I'd wager they work to keep him and let Tomlinson walk, in addition to other pricey cuts they're likely to trigger.
I hope they will try and keep both Ryan and Tomlinson. If you pass on Tomlinson then you have to find an equivalent replacement or it degrades our best unit. Ryan won’t be really expensive and Tomlinson is worth the cost.
This is a good point if indeed you can get Solder to agree to a good sized salary reduction, since he will be a backup in all liklihood.
You never know how a guy will swallow that! Pride vs convenience to his sin's medical team, what % of his son's medical bills are borne by him out of pocket vs the NFL's medical plan...
Anyone know how family is covered by the NFL's medical plan?
I would prioritize signing him. I would also keep Williams/Tomlinson if you could, but would prioritize Williams over Tomlinson. Williams has a skill set that Tomlinson does not
Jon, that's been out there for a while about the Giants trying to recoup sonething (more than a future comp pick) for Tomlinson.
But the last time I read (or heard) a tidbit about Tomlinson, possibly on Giants.com, it was spun IN REVERSE!
The revised claim was that Giants had offers for Tomlinson last year (even a team was mentioned, maybe the Lions?) but the offer wasn't rich enough for the team to part ways with him!
Was that in your opinion a new media plant/ spin released by the FO?
Not only that, but he wants to be here. Easy decision, I think.
Tomlinson is someone I like and others like, too, but is he worth Pro Bowl money? I know Judge and Graham like him too, but if he wants $13-14M a year, that's steep for a run defender and guy who doesn't play all downs.
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In comment 15064748 BillT said:
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Solder probably would and certainly should agree to a pay cut that would free as much cap space as releasing him would. So that’s a no brainer. And keeping him and Zeitler gives us a solid three man group at both tackle and guard. That is great depth. Look at what happened this year to the Cowboys and Eagles OLs.
While the pay cut would certainly be helpful, the problem with Solder I think is bigger than that.
He can't play at this level any more, and taking the year away from the game certainly isn't going to help that.
He’s good enough to be a better than average backup swing tackle don’t you think.
I would lean against it. He is clearly failing to hold up at Left Tackle. And he hasn't played Right Tackle in a decade.
If the finances call for that to be the best alternative so be it. But I have to imagine he is nothing but a liability at this stage if he has to come on the field, even as a swing tackle.
I
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In comment 15064748 BillT said:
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Solder probably would and certainly should agree to a pay cut that would free as much cap space as releasing him would. So that’s a no brainer. And keeping him and Zeitler gives us a solid three man group at both tackle and guard. That is great depth. Look at what happened this year to the Cowboys and Eagles OLs.
Why keep Solder? He is expensive and the guys replacing him are young, still developing, are the future, and have not really been a drop-off from what Solder gave the team.
You keep him as a backup instead of Fleming or the equivalent. We currently have no up and coming backup OTs that are better than PS level so you not displacing a younger player either.
I know nobody wants to hear this again this year, but there is nothing wrong with drafting another Offensive Tackle on maybe Day 2 folks.
Shed Solder and Fleming. Move forward.
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and Fleming is gone ... Zeitler is our best, most consistent OL ... he stays, If Murphy can elevate to swing guard, you trade WH while he still has value. Signing Logan is a no brainer and we’re set at safety... the big question is the DL.
Sorry, but Zeitler is not our current best OL. He’s been average at best this year.
The answer is Gates. And frankly I’m not sure if Zeitler is our best G anymore. That’s probably Lemieux.
Whoa Nellie. Not suggesting Zeitler is pro bowl material but I think he is playing solid ball since that Steeler game. That guy on the weekly OL review continues to show tape of him doing a more consistent job on run and pass than the other guards.
Lemieux playing well and coming up fast but not there yet.
Too smart & solid on the field to let go yet. He has really settled down that Secondary.
That gives Ryan some financial security while the Giants affordably retain a capable vet. Sounds like a win win.
Cosmic my friend this year with no preseason and Ryan desperate for a contract and familiar with JJ and the system he and PG run took a one year deal worth upwards of 7 mil if Ryan hits on pro bowl and all pro half million bonuses...
That's what he agreed to when backed into a corner...
Turning 30 in January, he's got to know this next one is his last really good contract. He loves playing in his native NJ and in a Belicikian system playing mostly Safety and calling shots on the back end.
But he will look for $$$ wherever desperate need at safety dictates.
With McKinney coming on, if he is what the Giants project him to be, and Peppers turning the corner big time and Love being a good 3rd safety, the top $$$ for Ryan won't be from DG, I don't think.
The age consideration is huge; they likely have every intention (at this point) to resign or extend Peppers beyond 2021, and Pep is five full years younger than Ryan.
Ask yourselves this question: why didn't DG push for a multiyear deal with Ryan when he had Ryan backed into a corner at the start of this season?
I am not a fan of Love either, but he is cheap.
He doesn't have a lot of range back there, like to see
what McKinney can do, but they won't rush him now.
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In comment 15064748 BillT said:
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Solder probably would and certainly should agree to a pay cut that would free as much cap space as releasing him would. So that’s a no brainer. And keeping him and Zeitler gives us a solid three man group at both tackle and guard. That is great depth. Look at what happened this year to the Cowboys and Eagles OLs.
Why keep Solder? He is expensive and the guys replacing him are young, still developing, are the future, and have not really been a drop-off from what Solder gave the team.
You keep him as a backup instead of Fleming or the equivalent. We currently have no up and coming backup OTs that are better than PS level so you not displacing a younger player either.
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for close to a year, and I doubt they pay $10M to him and market dollars to LW.
Jon, that's been out there for a while about the Giants trying to recoup sonething (more than a future comp pick) for Tomlinson.
But the last time I read (or heard) a tidbit about Tomlinson, possibly on Giants.com, it was spun IN REVERSE!
The revised claim was that Giants had offers for Tomlinson last year (even a team was mentioned, maybe the Lions?) but the offer wasn't rich enough for the team to part ways with him!
Was that in your opinion a new media plant/ spin released by the FO?
The Packers reportedly made a trade offer at the deadline for Tomlinson but the offer was a day three pick most likely a 5th. Had the Packers offered a 3rd the Giants might have accepted.
But all that might not have mattered or had much influence on a DB room with Jenkins instead of Bradberry, or Baker in place of Holmes.
The entire group accepting and responding to his leadership is crucial, methinks.
Haha seriously. There’s no denying the value he’s brought both from his own playing ability, and his leadership.
Makes me think back to the 1990 Giants (not that this iteration is anything close overall), but they got big contributions from 2 vet DBs, Everson Walls and Dave Duerson. Both playing ability and leadership
Whoa Nellie. Not suggesting Zeitler is pro bowl material but I think he is playing solid ball since that Steeler game. That guy on the weekly OL review continues to show tape of him doing a more consistent job on run and pass than the other guards.
Lemieux playing well and coming up fast but not there yet.
I don't see it with Zeitler. He's regressed. And based on his game reviews, I think Sy would agree to an extent.
Lemieux is still learning but I think he's our most gifted G on the move. And that has helped the running game - IMV.
Unless he restructures, or bet yet retires, that contract will hurt next year.
I still they think they would've traded DT if a #3 pick had been offered. Now, he could deliver a comp #3 or #4 if he departs so it will probably be worth waiting.
There's a good chance the Giants are drafting a G in '21 or '22 to replace him in two years.
Short: his taking the Giants offer wasn’t a fluke but reflected NFL demand. As he celebrates his 30th, that’s unlikely to change.
Absolutely regarding the competition comment.
Only been waiting forever for that to happen.